XSF Discussion - 2017-03-22


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  72. jonasw lovetox: once sent and once received, in a twisted, technical, non-UX-oriented way it makes sense.
  73. Zash Does the Prosody one do that?
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  80. Ge0rG I'm pondering about writing an XEP for clients to properly handle message-to-self situation. I was thinking about using the 'sent' carbon, but with MAM it's getting blurry
  81. Ge0rG It's just that I don't have a MAM implementation yet
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  171. nyco BING! Meetup in Paris next week!
  172. nyco https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meetups
  173. nyco https://twitter.com/JabberFR/status/844555149276319744
  174. Tobias great..will reweet that on the xmpp account
  175. Tobias *retweet
  176. nyco thx! ;-)
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  184. Tobias Flow, when does the IoT SIG usally meet?
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  186. Flow Tobias: There is no scheduled next meeting.
  187. nyco is there room in all the countries for other XMPP/Jabber Meetups?
  188. nyco Netherlands, maybe?
  189. Tobias Flow, would be nice to set one up to discuss the IEEE IoT and XMPP IoT strategy, including some council presence
  190. Flow Tobias: I suggest contacting Rikard
  191. Tobias ok
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  203. arc any perseus admins here?
  204. Tobias maybe
  205. arc just wondering if you know where the observatory frontend code lives on here
  206. Tobias uff..no... intosi might know that
  207. arc ok how about, how are vdomains configured on here
  208. arc im not finding the things id expect in /etc/apache2 or /etc/nginx
  209. intosi In the nginx config.
  210. arc ah there it is, ok. i was looking in sites-enabled, didnt notice the vdomains
  211. arc i havent used nginx for a very long time
  212. intosi I think you'll find the observatory code at https://bitbucket.org/xnyhps/xmppoke-frontend
  213. Tobias i thought everybody was using it nowadays :)
  214. arc /var/www/vhosts/xmpp.net
  215. arc Tobias: i might be, if I had not interviewed for a job with them
  216. jonasw … until they find that nginx cannot into && or nested ifs
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  219. arc their CEO is a former rugby teammate of mine, Gus. I'm not working for them because they don't allow employees to work on FOSS projects outside of work without explicit permission
  220. intosi Tobias: depends on the server. I have machines running nginx and lighttpd, but the majority is apache.
  221. arc so I don't consider nginx a valid FOSS project anymore.
  222. moparisthebest It seems to depend on how long it's been since you've set up the server :)
  223. moparisthebest originally I used apache, then changed to lighttpd, now everything runs nginx
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  225. intosi Some of these servers go back almost 20 years.
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  229. arc i know nginx is just now getting dynamically loaded modules but doesn't have a stable module api; that's another perk of Apache
  230. arc though honestly in the end it shouldn't really matter, everything should be containerized anyway
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  234. arc apache httpd is falling behind in the area of http/2.0, its implemented through loaded modules but not nearly as well supported as core
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  236. arc and apache2's websocket support is still tack-on requiring a bit of a hack with the i/o filters
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  238. moparisthebest yea arc at least currently nginx is first with support for everything
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  240. arc I'll give you that. But its always easier when your design is primarily monolithic and centralized, employed developers
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  244. moparisthebest especially ones banned from writing other code right arc ? :P
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  246. Zash How can that be legal?
  247. jonasw Zash: freedomland probably
  248. moparisthebest Zash, I suppose it's just a regular contract right?
  249. SamWhited It's probably not, depending on where they're headquartered.
  250. moparisthebest either way no one who wants to keep that job is going to sue them over it
  251. SamWhited But yah, what moparisthebest said; doesn't matter if it's unenforceable, chances are most people won't take legal action if they get fired.
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  253. Zash Weird and broken
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  255. jonasw https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/
  256. jonasw that at least gave me an idea why the heck you’d want to do that, aside from pure evilness
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  259. moparisthebest hmm arc didn't you say nginx was in california? if that article is to be believed they have a law against that
  260. SamWhited California definitely has a law against that; doesn't stop people from doing it unless someone challenges them though.
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  263. moparisthebest right, that'd be enough to at least make me feel comfortable they couldn't steal my unrelated work
  264. Ge0rG where I live, nobody can steal my copyright.
  265. moparisthebest Ge0rG, your employer doesn't own what you write for them?
  266. Ge0rG moparisthebest: copyright is a personal right in Germany. You can't give it away, you can merely grant exclusive distribution rights
  267. Zash Ge0rG: Here that applies to all works of art, except code.
  268. Ge0rG Zash: this is because most code is not art.
  269. SamWhited Code is just zeros and ones, so obviously it's not a work of art. It just happens.
  270. mathieui in most countries the fact that your employer can’t deprive you of your copyright doesn’t mean that they can’t lawyer you into oblivion for this anyway
  271. moparisthebest so Ge0rG what stops you from working at a company, writing some critical code, quitting or being fired, then 'revoking distribution rights' ?
  272. mathieui (also I found the joel article really bad)
  273. moparisthebest the first non-self-employed programming job I had was contracting, they had a clause like this, when I asked about it they said "oh you mean like writing code for the linux kernel?" I said "something like that" they said "oh we use linux all the time so that's fine" I really needed the job so I didn't argue
  274. moparisthebest my current job is just in-house software for a medical company, they don't produce software, so they don't have any clause like this
  275. Ge0rG moparisthebest: there are bounds to what is admissible in contracts between employers and employees, and if either side bends the contract too much, there are courts
  276. moparisthebest I got a job offer in between that had a clause like this, I said it wasn't acceptable, they said people say that all the time and removed it no questions asked...
  277. jonasw moparisthebest: I don’t think you can revoke those rights after you signed to pass them.
  278. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm pretty sure that "all your code belong to us" is illegal in DE, and thus that clause will have no effect
  279. SamWhited It doesn't matter if it has an effect or not if you get sued and don't have the time or money to deal with lawyers.
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  281. moparisthebest I think laws kind of protect you some ways, I'd still much rather have a clear contract without that bad clause though
  282. moparisthebest because like SamWhited said I don't have lawyers or time or money to fight lawsuits against huge companies
  283. jonasw moparisthebest: if it isn’t legal in $country, reasonable employers won’t have such a clause :-)
  284. jonasw (and if they have and insist on having it, I would worry about other things wrong in that company)
  285. moparisthebest jonasw, it's not legal in california apparantly and they still do
  286. Ge0rG I have a clause in my contract that I need permission from my boss to do other jobs (which is illegal, I only need to inform them), and he spoiled my christmas party because my photo gallery is on a .pro domain and it might be a side business.
  287. jonasw Ge0rG: ugh
  288. moparisthebest how did he spoil it?
  289. Ge0rG not sure if he tried to be funny or just mean, but he proposed paying me photographer wage instead of itsec wage if this is what I want to do.
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  291. moparisthebest sounds like an asshole haha
  292. Ge0rG moparisthebest: my contractual obligations forbid me to comment on that .P
  293. moparisthebest yea I'd encourage you not to either way :)
  294. arc moparisthebest: there isn't a law in California against an employer stopping you from working on things on your own time. The law is that your employer cannot claim ownership of IP you develop while employed, worked on in your own time and on your own equipment.
  295. Ge0rG you better not respond to github tickets from your business-owned phone
  296. arc some employers such as Google go so far as purchasing special pens with chemically doped inks so that any documents written with their pens can be challeged later to be Google's IP, since their equipment was used
  297. moparisthebest seriously? that sounds like a joke
  298. moparisthebest I hope it's a joke...
  299. Ge0rG joke day is next week
  300. arc its not a joke, ive had 3 googlers warning me about the gift pens
  301. arc im not and will never be an employee
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  303. arc there was apparently a court case where this was disclosed; two former employees who left to do a startup doing something similar to what they were doing at Google, and Google claimed they developed it with company property.
  304. intosi If they're gifting the pens, doesn't that undermine their claim that anything written with them might be Google IP?
  305. arc the key part is Google demanded original documents, not copies
  306. arc "gifting" is the question here. they're office supplies freely available.
  307. Ge0rG maybe they are only doing that to prevent Googlers from stealing office supplies?
  308. arc in any case, these are the kind of bullshit talked about in the bay area. bigger than this tho, Google's employment contract forbids it and violating it is terms for immediate firing
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  311. arc i dont think any google needs to steal pens. they're not even that nice of pens.
  312. Ge0rG I also like the other explanation, it totally fits the "don't be evil" stance.
  313. Ge0rG arc: any chance you can dig up the court case?
  314. arc i was just looknig for it but all im finding at the moment is the case for the "stolen IP" cases with apple and uber
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  316. arc google is constantly in these kind of lawsuits
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  318. moparisthebest this is part of the reason I haven't looked for a new better paying job
  319. moparisthebest no way I'm writing healthcare industry software in my spare time, so I'm pretty much good no matter what
  320. Ge0rG I just wanted to say "we are hiring" but that christmas party story probably spoiled it now.
  321. moparisthebest Ge0rG, do you hire remote workers from USA ? hehe
  322. Ge0rG moparisthebest: haven't tried yet. I'm a remote worker 450km away, and I'm working from home 90% of the time, and visting customers for the other 10%
  323. Ge0rG moparisthebest: no idea if we can compete with west coast wages though.
  324. moparisthebest I'm in the middle so I don't nearly compete with west coast wages either :)
  325. arc geesus, google quietly ended their 20% policy in 2013?
  326. moparisthebest but it works out because my housing/living expenses is 1/4 of west coast costs too
  327. Ge0rG OTOH I can imagine some logistical challenges. 100% of our customers are German.
  328. moparisthebest I know how to count to 10 in german... :)
  329. mathieui I managed to survive three CCCongresses and two CCCamps, does it count towards knowing german?
  330. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that won't suffice. you need to be able to count at least to our daily rate.
  331. Ge0rG remembers a bunch of New Yorkers, visting CCCongress in Berlin, waiting at a red traffic light at 3AM... it was very bizarre
  332. arc completely off topic, any tips for cooking eggs in cast iron, beside seasoning it obsessively?
  333. arc Ge0rG: in the US, cops sit with their lights off in the middle of the night waiting for people to run red lights. that's why.
  334. Ge0rG arc: the next-best idea that comes to my mind is to make omelette by breaking the eggs into a zipper bag and cooking it
  335. Ge0rG arc: in NYC?
  336. moparisthebest I once set a frozen porkchop on fire in a cast iron skillet, frozen porkchops are very flammable fyi
  337. arc Ge0rG: everywhere. cops in the US have quotas for tickets.
  338. Ge0rG I've experienced both NYC and Berlin as cities where nobody looks for the lights
  339. SamWhited arc: I don't think that's true, lots of my Google friends still have 20% time. Maybe a specific team got rid of it or something
  340. arc they're left to their own devices to come up with ways to ticket people.
  341. arc SamWhited: https://qz.com/115831/googles-20-time-which-brought-you-gmail-and-adsense-is-now-as-good-as-dead/
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  343. mathieui Ge0rG, last time I jaywalked in switzerland people were looking at me like they wanted to murder me
  344. mathieui I am now careful of doing so in foreign countries
  345. arc i actually do kindof remember this, employees talking about "120% time". now managers have to approve, rather than it being a right everyone had (usually every friday), and most managers set goals to 100% of your time so you can only work on your personal projects if you're ahead of schedule
  346. Zash mathieui: I found that it's fine in Brussels as long as you appear confident enough while walking
  347. arc one of my friends who works as a SRE said his manager uses the 20% time as a "reward" for being on schedule, but then increases your workload after you do it since you've clearly demonstrated that you can.
  348. Zash More work as reward for working?
  349. arc yea, why I put it in quotes.
  350. arc when Google went public, a lot of things changed. Growth demanded managers started getting hired from other industries, and the corporate culture changed drastically.
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  352. Zash Better than getting fired because there's not enough work to do I suppose.
  353. mathieui the niceties of corporate culture
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  355. arc googler are smarter than that. they create more work for themselves by constantly throwing away old projects and creating new, incompatible products
  356. arc why do you think they've gone through 4 IM standards in 7 years
  357. Zash Reinventing the wheel and NIH is so much fun!
  358. SamWhited Maybe that's just what happens when you go public; I have seen other companies engineering culture go to shit as soon as they went public (although it was not clear if that was actually the cause)… will not name names for… reasons.
  359. arc https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
  360. arc this is making me sad.
  361. Zash ... tractors with firmware?
  362. arc all tractors have firmware now
  363. arc this was the central point of the "right to repair" bills
  364. Zash That's completely alien to me
  365. moparisthebest yea that's some ridiculous stuff
  366. intosi All cars have firmware these days, too.
  367. moparisthebest cars are the same
  368. arc John Deere is spending millions on lobbying to stop these bills because they dont want farmers to be able to hack their own tractors
  369. Ge0rG is driving a 2016 car, it's full of electronics... and has a GPL license hidden in the radio menu
  370. moparisthebest cars don't even just have computers now, they have computer networks, an engine computer (sometimes multiple), a transmission computer, a computer for everything else, networked across an insecure network, which is fine, until some moron plugs an internet connected radio into it...
  371. moparisthebest :'(
  372. arc ive been reading tons of complaints by farmers claiming their tractors have a software-based kill switch that cause them to shut down if regular maintenance isnt performed in time or if they've surpassed their lifespan
  373. arc how much of that is paranoia, vs how much is a conspiracy by the corporation, is anyone's guess.
  374. vurpo has left
  375. arc but on a political side its *just enough* of an edge to get broad popular support
  376. Ge0rG arc: dongling of tractor components is less far-fetched than chemical marking of ink
  377. Ge0rG printer manufacturers are doing it for decades now
  378. arc yea that's true, but about the "kill switch"
  379. moparisthebest this is why I'm keeping my 1952 tractor and never buying a newer car, I've even just recently convinced my wife :)
  380. arc farmers claiming their regular service lights go on, and they have 30 days before the tractors simple won't start anymore. some left stranded in the field.
  381. Ge0rG arc: I expect this to happen from a company that requires farmers to sign license contracts on sold tractors.
  382. ralphm I remember when this channel was more on topic.
  383. arc farmers complaints are being treated as backwoods hicks conspiracy theories tho
  384. arc ralphm: we're... orbiting... the topic.
  385. Zash http://memecrunch.com/meme/133R9/pepperidge-farm-remembers/image.png
  386. ralphm No, it seems there's more and more of these discussion in this room, and I want it gone.
  387. ralphm But maybe that's just me
  388. moparisthebest ralphm, the tractors probably use xmpp for the company to remotely shut them down?
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  390. moparisthebest personally I don't see it interrupting actual on-topic discussion, if it did then I'd agree it's a problem
  391. arc hey *IM* working on xmpp stuff right now ;-)
  392. Kev ralphm: It's not just you. This window flashes and I try to read it (now or later) to catch up on important XMPP discussions. People talking about tractors and Christmas parties is just wasting my time.
  393. Kev I'm happy to make another room on the server for people to have OT chats if they want them.
  394. ralphm moparisthebest: I do. When I scroll back in this channel, I don't want to search XSF or XMPP related stuff with a magnifying glass. I am also not interested in philosophical debates about the evilness of Google services or licensing choices. In this venue.
  395. dwd Kev, +1.
  396. Zash Have we come to the point where we need an OT room?
  397. Kev Zash: I don't care one way or the other, I'd just like in here to be less woefully offtopic.
  398. mathieui (can agree on the OT thing, even if I am sometimes actively contributing to it)
  399. jonasw proposes xsf-leisure@, if we really need it
  400. mathieui Zash, well, it *does* make backlogging more of a pain when you want to focus on XMPP stuff
  401. Ge0rG splitting out off-topic discussions won't work. Forbidding them probably will, but it might not be a good idea nevertheless.
  402. jonasw I am running out of horizontal space for conversation tabs, so -1 ;-)
  403. Zash Figure out how to to smarter threading
  404. ralphm Ge0rG: I'd be happy to mandate and enforce this.
  405. moparisthebest I find it easy to scroll through, I don't care either way, I'd suggest making the topic clearer on the subject though, ie offtopic conversations forbidden or whatever
  406. mathieui Ge0rG, I have seen a few communities where splitting out off-topic discussions work quite well
  407. Zash ralphm: You /are/ the moderator, you have the power. :)
  408. jonasw I’ve seen it work more-or-less okay-ish
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  410. ralphm The topic in this room is very clear. Most clients display it: "XSF Discussion"
  411. SamWhited Ooh, relevant XMPP UI consideration: horizontal tabs are a bad idea, because scroll doesn't work or doesn't feel as natural. New IM products mostly have a vertical room/chat selection thing for a reason.
  412. jonasw if moderators throw "ECHAN" at anyone going off-topic
  413. moparisthebest it doesn't say "Only XSF Discussion"
  414. jonasw SamWhited: tell that to pidgin.
  415. Ge0rG mathieui: it would require everybody interested in off-topic discussions to join a different MUC, which nobody will do voluntarily
  416. Zash SamWhited: Tell Kev & Tobias :)
  417. mathieui moparisthebest, it’s less "offtopic conversations are forbidden" than "when we feel we are drifting offtopic, the conversation should move"
  418. ralphm Like so?
  419. SamWhited Kev and Tobias! ⤴
  420. moparisthebest has joined
  421. SamWhited (but yah, this is one reason I stopped using Gajim and Swift)
  422. arc what could be done MIX-wise to manage discussions with threads?
  423. Kev Zash: Swift does have a vertical list as well, and it predates most other people starting to do that thing ;)
  424. mathieui SamWhited, gajim has vertical tabs
  425. Ge0rG mIRC had an option to make a vertical list.
  426. SamWhited Oh, nifty, I'll have to try and find it and see
  427. Tobias vertical tabs? with rotated label text?
  428. mathieui (it’s hidden in the ACE)
  429. SamWhited Heh, oops, I mean a list, of course, not "vertical tabs"
  430. Kev SamWhited: Look at the "Chats" list in Swift.
  431. ralphm Hmm, does Conversation shows people being kicked?
  432. Ge0rG Would it make sense to show kicked people, but not other presence changes?
  433. ralphm Yes
  434. SamWhited Kev: Ah, I see; I didn't actually understand that I could use that to switch between existing chats in my huge tabs that all start with a single letter and then '…'
  435. Ge0rG ralphm: but then you also need to show when that evil person comes back
  436. SamWhited It also shows every other random room I have bookmarked though, even stuff I don't actually have open, so it's not all that useful unless I dig to find things
  437. jonasw SamWhited: pidgin at least has scrolling, which is slightly useful; it only makes you miss anything from tabs which are currently not visible >.>
  438. Kev SamWhited: It shows things with recent activity on top, which does the job for me most of the time, combined with M-a.
  439. SamWhited Kev: Oh, I see, I was still confused; it shows bookmarked rooms separate from recent chats
  440. Ge0rG I wish I could try out swift...
  441. Tobias we need to make these shortcuts more discoverable
  442. Tobias Ge0rG, you could if you wouldn't use sid :P
  443. SamWhited I was looking at the bottom thinking that was rooms, and the top thinkin that was chats (not noticing that the first thing was this room)
  444. Ge0rG Tobias: I tried to install the ubuntu .deb, but it also depends on boost 1.58 from half a year ago
  445. Tobias i tested installing on 16.04 and Jessie...what ubuntu did you try?
  446. SamWhited Either way, having the horizontal tabs list is rather useless and confusing; I have no idea what room "m…" is.
  447. jonasw sid <3
  448. Ge0rG Tobias: the funniest thing is, I have half of the boost packages installed on my machine. but only half of them
  449. Ge0rG Tobias: none. I just added the ubuntu repo to sid
  450. ralphm Ge0rG: I don't care that much about that. But I'm sure it is an interesting UX concept on how to deal with occupants being kicked.
  451. SamWhited has joined
  452. ralphm Also curious about what that looks like in MIX
  453. Tobias Ge0rG, and expected that to work?
  454. Ge0rG Tobias: yes, it often works.
  455. SamWhited wonders why he gets booted from all IETF rooms any time he joins with a second client
  456. Ge0rG ralphm: MIX will probably have much more static participant lists, as opposed to MUC
  457. ralphm Not probably
  458. jubalh has joined
  459. ralphm But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to kick people.
  460. Ge0rG ralphm: most of the MUCs I'm in contain pages and pages of presence changes.
  461. ralphm If only as a gesture.
  462. jubalh has left
  463. ralphm kicks Ge0rG
  464. ralphm See. So satisfying
  465. Zash Does kicking even make sense in MIX?
  466. Ge0rG ralphm: sure it is.
  467. Steve Kille In MIX you change participation, so there is no longer a need for an explicit Kick
  468. Tobias SamWhited, because it runs an old ejabberd version?
  469. Ge0rG Steve Kille: but people will want to have an explicit kick, because it's satisfying
  470. ralphm Steve Kille: from a techical standpoint, maybe.
  471. SamWhited oh boy, sounds like fun; I keep meaning to see what they're sending me or what's actually going wrong.
  472. Holger has left
  473. Ge0rG I've been kicking people for over 20 years now, we can't simply remove that from MIX. Nobody will use it without kicks!1!
  474. SamWhited gajim only actually joined a handful of my bookmarks with auto join set, so I guess that's one way to make sure there aren't too many tabs open…
  475. ralphm SamWhited: works for me
  476. arc who's here for the meeting
  477. SamWhited huh; gajim also freezes for ~3 seconds any time I do almost anyting (eg. hit "ok" on adding a new account), so I'm assuming something about my system is just borked
  478. Ge0rG SamWhited: do you have gpg installed?
  479. arc do we have any items for the meeting this week?
  480. nyco time for board meeting?
  481. arc yea
  482. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting| Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  483. ralphm bangs gavel
  484. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  485. ralphm Hi all. Who do we have?
  486. arc Here
  487. Martin Ahoy
  488. ralphm dwd: minutes?
  489. dwd ralphm, Yes, I'll do them.
  490. nyco why not hours?
  491. arc hours is only when the meeting runs over 120 minutes.
  492. dwd nyco, I'm hoping it won't take that long.
  493. SamWhited has left
  494. ralphm MattJ ?
  495. MattJ Here
  496. ralphm I see we should clean up our Trello Board
  497. ralphm Let's spell out what we want to discuss today here.
  498. arc I don't have any items for today.
  499. arc Unless we want to discuss PyCon
  500. Ge0rG I'd like to remind the Board of the removal of deprecated software process.
  501. nyco Meetups
  502. ralphm arc: sure we can
  503. arc +1 Ge0rG
  504. MattJ I'd like to (re)raise the boring task of collecting money from sponsors
  505. arc Guus's calendar, yea
  506. ralphm Aye
  507. ralphm 1. Sponsors and FOSDEM financial resolution
  508. nyco Ge0rG, is it a Board task? I feel we agree we should "do something", but is it a Board duty?
  509. ralphm I have a big todo on this for my expenses and money we got from the sales at FOSDEM
  510. arc I still need to get reimbursed for the dinner
  511. arc does that get sent to PSA?
  512. ralphm I haven't collected or filed my expenses
  513. ralphm So let's all send that PSA
  514. Ge0rG nyco: I've sent a proposal mail to board@ last week, as was asked in the last board meeting. And I think there is also the issue of iteam-vs-website
  515. ralphm I'll hit up stpeter on this and the Executive Director stuff hopefully this week
  516. ralphm Ge0rG: ah. So your message was probably killed, as it is automoderated.
  517. ralphm Hmm
  518. nyco ok, we got the agenda?
  519. ralphm nyco: we already started
  520. nyco oops
  521. ralphm We're at Sponsors and FOSDEM
  522. nyco yep, thx
  523. ralphm I also have a message from MattJ in my inbox
  524. ralphm So I'll try to get this all resolved Real Soon Now™
  525. MattJ Great. If you need help with stuff, shout
  526. ralphm Can everyone else with expenses send his information to stpeter?
  527. ralphm MattJ: ok
  528. ralphm 2. Deprecation
  529. ralphm So Ge0rG, I think your message got lost in moderation
  530. jubalh has joined
  531. ralphm Can you resend it to the Members list instead?
  532. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt is the draft
  533. ralphm Ah
  534. Ge0rG There are two "TODO"s in it, one is to have a fallback contact (the iteam vs. website debate from Board meeting), the other is changing the example URL after https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278 is merged.
  535. Ge0rG The reference commit was rewritten since, new URL is https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278/commits/ca54e6846163d69ded7cb5f2d20bedc649b1fbd0
  536. ralphm I'd like the signoff to be personal. Otherwise, it looks fine to me.
  537. jubalh has left
  538. Ge0rG ralphm: obviously, I can't sign it with any official role (except for "XSF member")
  539. ralphm You can sign it with your name, we asked you to do this
  540. Ge0rG ralphm: I wasn't sure if I was the one to send it. If I am, I'll sign it as "Georg Lukas, on behalf of the XSF Board"
  541. ralphm Sounds good.
  542. arc +1
  543. Yagiza has left
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  545. ralphm Kev: would you be ok with iteam as manually performing these updates?
  546. vurpo has left
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  548. ralphm MattJ, nyco, Martin agreed, too?
  549. nyco yeah, sure, let's do this
  550. Martin Sounds fine to me +1
  551. MattJ Yes, sounds good
  552. Ge0rG is there an official way to approach iteam?
  553. ralphm Great. So let
  554. Ge0rG ask in jdev@
  555. Ge0rG "ask in jdev@"?
  556. nyco I guess it is not enough, but that's just me, can't argue, I don't see the future, at least that will have some effect
  557. ralphm 's asynchronously wait on Kev's response and then send it off afterwards
  558. Ge0rG ralphm: it also blocks on #278
  559. Bunneh ralphm: Mix #278 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/278
  560. Ge0rG sorry, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278
  561. Ge0rG I've had a look into the PR and it seems fine with me, but I have no rights to deploy anything on the website.
  562. Ge0rG (nor a clue about how to do it)
  563. ralphm Since it has been 6 days, I'm sure Guus can merge it now
  564. ralphm 3. PyCon
  565. ralphm arc?
  566. Guus has left
  567. arc so we all know when it is, right?
  568. arc we have the booth. we need to start gathering materials to do it well
  569. Guus has joined
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  571. arc and any "demo" type stuff. ideally things we can reuse at other conferences, and any larger items like beanbags that we can store state-side
  572. vurpo has joined
  573. ralphm Can you make a list at the wiki?
  574. ralphm We also need to invoke SCAM for this
  575. arc I can put some of my ideas on the wiki, certainly
  576. arc SCAM?
  577. arc ah, yea the new WG
  578. ralphm right
  579. nyco yeah, is SCAM clearly defined and understood by all?
  580. SamWhited I've been meaning to ask what that means for weeks
  581. dwd arc, When is PyCon (useful to put in the minutes)
  582. Valerian has left
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  584. arc May 17-25. The booth will only be on May 18, 19, and 20
  585. ralphm We probably need to write a charter, read XEP, for SCAM
  586. arc 21-25 will be the sprints, which I'd like to get enough of us there to run a sprints table
  587. SamWhited Sorry, that was me asking: what is SCAM?
  588. arc there is still a free PyCon pass available for an XSF member who can make it and is willing to help out with the booth
  589. arc SamWhited: Summits, Conferences, And Meetups
  590. ralphm Summits, Conferences, And Meetups
  591. SamWhited thanks
  592. nyco and is the SCAM WG official?
  593. nyco who's on it?
  594. ralphm I think we voted for having it. We didn't actually specify it.
  595. arc after FOSDEM we talked about needing a WG to help with these, since a majority of the prep workload too often falls on 1-2 people
  596. arc This is a great time to get the WG organized, though.
  597. nyco I'd rather have it emerge bottom-up, rather that design top-down
  598. arc You don't have to actually be going to PyCon to help get stuff ready for it.
  599. ralphm So actually, we decided it to be a Work Team, not a SIG
  600. ralphm so it doesn't require a XEP
  601. nyco personally, I said I could engage and commit some work, given we have a real team, committed as well
  602. nyco yeah, the lightweight version good! ;-)
  603. ralphm So, I think an action point is to actually put people on it
  604. arc Yea that'd be a good start.
  605. arc I'll volunteer
  606. arc sounds like nyco did as well
  607. nyco rather listen to people and see if there is interest... and encourage/coach/push them a little, as a kickoff
  608. nyco arc, not without a team
  609. nyco the commteam was not really a team
  610. arc I think its easier to get a group started when there's a concrete project to start with and non-arbitrary deadlines
  611. ralphm I'd be happy to be on it, too.
  612. nyco agree
  613. nyco good
  614. ralphm PyCon seems like a good starting project
  615. nyco so arc yuo do a meetup in NYC, ralph you do a meetup in Amsterdam, I do Paris and Krakow... next? ;-)
  616. ralphm Having non-Board members on it, seems like a good thing
  617. nyco ralphm, yep, members, even non-members is fine for me
  618. arc nyco: im moving to Portland very soon, where Portland is being hosted this year
  619. ralphm nyco: we decided on it being members-only
  620. dwd arc, Portland is being hosted in Portland?
  621. mhterres has left
  622. arc dwd: PyCon is being hosted in Portland
  623. ralphm See minutes of our 2017-02-08 meeting
  624. nyco for the Paris meetup next Tuesday, we'll start super lightweight: we have only two subjects of discussion... no presentation/slidedeck, no workshop, no nothing fancy
  625. arc dwd: sorry
  626. dwd arc, :-)
  627. dwd needs to start arranging another London one.
  628. nyco dwd, yep
  629. ralphm ok. We need to continue this another time
  630. ralphm Let the minutes reflect that member volunteers for this Work Team are welcome
  631. arc I'll send a mail out to members@ to solicit volunteres for the WG
  632. ralphm Thanks
  633. nyco and please, let's sync/centralise/distribute/promote all the content that we produce and present during these meetups
  634. ralphm I see that nyco is chairing the Work Team
  635. nyco because now, everything is lost on Meetup.com, proprietary platform
  636. Ge0rG small FYI: I've updated https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt with the remarks from the meeting, only open thing is the website PR.
  637. nyco ralphm, I got a chair, yes... but that's it
  638. ralphm 4. AOB
  639. daniel has left
  640. ralphm I didn't see any
  641. nyco chocolate
  642. daniel has joined
  643. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  644. nyco that's another business
  645. nyco +1W
  646. arc +1W
  647. ralphm +1W. Note that coming weekend is DST switchover in EU, thus also the meeting time
  648. nyco cool, thx all!
  649. ralphm 6. Close.
  650. ralphm Thanks!
  651. ralphm bangs gavel
  652. arc our DST was a few weeks ago ;-)
  653. arc thanks ralphm
  654. dwd ralphm, Wait - you saying the next meeting is anchored in UTC or EU local?
  655. arc dwd: UTC
  656. arc its changing for EU folks next week
  657. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  658. arc it changed for US folks a few weeks ago
  659. dwd arc, Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what time to write in the minutes.
  660. arc last year our meetings were fixed to EU daylight savings, which caused the meeting time to change 4 times a year vs just 2
  661. arc dwd: UTC.
  662. ralphm That would make us overlap with Council?
  663. Guus Council also does UTC, I read in the minutes
  664. dwd Indeed.
  665. ralphm Oh, so we do too
  666. nyco https://twitter.com/nyconyco/status/844602749945831424
  667. ralphm has left
  668. dwd nyco, Already has been created, technically - it was in the minutes and everything.
  669. nyco I was not even aware of that...
  670. nyco I mean I did not realise we decided
  671. Martin has left
  672. Ge0rG Guus: good to see you back, could you please merge https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/278
  673. nyco I assumed it was still "under thoughts"
  674. Guus I have just updated both the upcoming Council and Board meetings to UTC (they were fixed on London time) in the sparklin' new shared Calendar.
  675. nyco good, anyway, I'll start collecting the slidedecks from all the recent meetups, so that we put them everywhere for the world to see, like SlideShare, LinkedIn, etc. and of course, our blog, and the authors blog(s)
  676. Guus Ge0rG: done.
  677. Martin has joined
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  679. Ge0rG okay, so https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/8724430ff702bab98865ef2338cd392c277a71ee is the final commit hash? jonasw?
  680. jonasw Ge0rG: if you don’t want me to change the commit-id to reflect potential future diff-ish output of the tool (which I haven’t done yet), and nobody rebases the branch instead of merging, I think so.
  681. Guus I rebase/merged it.
  682. Ge0rG jonasw: it's in the master commit now.
  683. Ge0rG jonasw: it's in the master branch now.
  684. jonasw oh
  685. jonasw then it is fixed ;-)
  686. Guus (not sure what commit Ge0rG was referring to)
  687. Ge0rG Guus: I need a reference to the example commit for https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt
  688. Martin has left
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  690. jonasw Ge0rG: if it is in the master branch, I cannot change the commitid anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re asking :)
  691. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm double-checking.
  692. jonasw ah
  693. Guus Ge0rG: I'd simply refer to the README at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data
  694. jonasw Ge0rG: Type upper-case yes: YES
  695. jonasw Guus: it’s for the example commit which shows how a change looks
  696. jonasw (I hope)
  697. Ge0rG yes, that's the intent
  698. jonasw Ge0rG: in your current draft, [2] points to master
  699. jonasw not to the readme
  700. Ge0rG jonasw: [2] is the repository
  701. Guus so the README has two pages of instructions, but still, we need something else? Either that's untrue, or we need to update the README :)
  702. Ge0rG jonasw: just clarified the wording
  703. jonasw hm, I’d rather link the readme instead of the commit
  704. jonasw maybe we can link the commit in the readme
  705. Ge0rG and the readme in the commit.
  706. jonasw that commit doesn’t contain any readme
  707. jonasw (and we cannot change the commit message anymore)
  708. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/deprecation-mail.txt - there, I changed it: > If you have an entry in one of the lists, please create a pull request as desribed in [1] before the 1st of May 2017. An example commit can be found in [2]. Software that is not updated until that date will be automatically removed from the listing.
  709. Ge0rG I'm waiting on a green light from Kev and send the mail tomorrow
  710. jonasw :)
  711. Zash Wait, that better not require github interaction
  712. jonasw Zash: github or jdev@ interaction
  713. jubalh has joined
  714. jonasw so just like before to get your software added to the list
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