-
Guus
That was my first thought
-
jonasw
good morning :)
-
jonasw
edhelas, wait what, pizzas?
-
edhelas
jonasw, yup, but you have to finish MIX before :(
-
jonasw
damn
-
jonasw
I hope MIX doesn’t become our Duke Nukem Forever
-
SouL
Haha :D
-
jonasw
even though I’m lucky that I don’t have contact to the people from ten years ago to whom I jokefully made promises based on "when Duke Nukem Forever gets released"
-
Ge0rG
haha, I remember the bets on which comes first - DNF, PS3 or DM8000 (a highly anticipated Linux-driven HDTV set-top-box)
-
jonasw
which of those lost?
-
Ge0rG
the release order was PS3 -> DM8000 -> DNF
-
emxp
moparisthebest, Guus: yes, an article about this said this too, but it's about the 'health of a community". but what do you think. would this be interesting for XMPP?
-
Guus
emxp: i have not looked closely enough to formulate an opinion.
-
emxp
Im gonna search for an article in english about it
-
edhelas
the deadline to submit a talk to T-DOSE (in NL) is at the end of the month
-
SouL
edhelas, I hope we can get recordings :)
-
edhelas
the on_sub_and_presence config for PEP start to be a massive souce of stanza spam on login on my side
-
edhelas
I'm wondering if we could not put it by default and use MAM to handle that properly ?
-
edhelas
basically change that part in the XEP
-
goffi
edhelas: why you don't filter it (removing +notify) ?
-
edhelas
> A server MAY include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested. to > A server MUST include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested.
-
edhelas
goffi, because I still want to be notified when an item is pushed/changed
-
goffi
right, I was thinking about explicit subscription, but it doesn't change anything about on_sub_and_presence
-
goffi
edhelas: were do you find "A server MAY include messages of type 'headline', but this is not generally suggested." ? do you have a link ?
-
Holger
goffi: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139061241577408
-
goffi
oh in MAM, OK
-
Holger
Very XMPP-like. "It might work this way but maybe not, you never know!"
-
edhelas
by puting headlines in MAM we could simply forget "on_sub_and_presence" and set pubsub#send_last_published_item to "never"
-
goffi
edhelas: headline are not supposed to be stored offline, I would change it for MUST NOT
-
Holger
The question is whether that rule makes sense.
-
goffi
and pubsub notifications should not be headline IMHO
-
Holger
And if it does, maybe we want to find a different solution to do what edhelas suggests.
-
Holger
I think the basic idea makes a lot of sense.
-
goffi
at least not by default
-
daniel
Well this forces clients to do MAM
-
Holger
The obvious problem is that this won't work for clients that don't support MAM.
-
Holger
Yes.
-
daniel
And MAM is a lot harder than just parsing incoming notifications
-
daniel
This doesn't only effect legacy clients
-
daniel
And MAM is experimental
-
edhelas
well we can still put headlines in MAM and progressively deprecate that in Pubsub
-
goffi
again, headline should not be stored offline
-
Holger
daniel: Because you might not fetch all history since your last session from MAM?
-
Holger
I see the issues. But I totally agree that resending unmodified PEP nodes on each and every login is stupid and can become a scalability issue.
-
daniel
Holger: well I'm thinking about someone implementing a new client from scratch wanting to support avatars or omemo and they would also have to implement mam from the very beginning
-
daniel
It will just make it more complicated to write clients
-
moparisthebest
that's a different broader topic, but we need to start advancing XEPs
-
edhelas
daniel, We can have both, still have on_sub_and_presence and MAM. But knowing that the server handle the headlines, I'd just drop the incoming PEP stanzas and handle only the MAM ones.
-
daniel
moparisthebest: yes
-
moparisthebest
xeps everyone has to implement for 'modern' chat experiences currently range from experimental to deferred and everything in between
-
moparisthebest
even 'draft' doesn't sound that great, and, apparantly, nothing EVER gets moved to final :)
-
Holger
If we put stanzas in MAM we'll also put them in offline storage so testing single-client usage should work without depending on MAM. Multi-client UX is bad without MAM anyway.
-
daniel
And there was some backlash when I tried to add more features to pep from people who want to keep pep really simple.
-
Holger
But I see how we don't want to require clients to always retrieve *all* MAM history.
-
daniel
I imagine those people won't be happy when we depend pep on mam
-
jonasw
I don’t have a strong opinion on your other pep suggestions, but depending pep on mam sounds horrifying.
-
jonasw
but ... it kind of makes sense :/
-
edhelas
and MAM is part of the 2017 compliance suites
-
mimi89999
What is it all about?
-
edhelas
well this is about finding links and coherence between the existing XEPs
-
goffi
I don't see the issue, 1) on_sub_and_presence is the default but can be disabled, 2) pubsub notification should be normal messages, not headline, so they will be in MAM 3) and again headline should not be stored offline
-
jonasw
edhelas, sure, but avatars are Core Client, MAM is Advanced Client
-
Zash
Weren't there something where you'd include a timestamp of your last notification and things would avoid sending notifications unless they have newer data
-
goffi
Zash: pubsub since ?
-
goffi
XEP-0312
-
daniel
But in general; the amount of bootstrapping and the resulting traffic I have to do on a full connect is enormous
-
goffi
Nyco already talked about this in a summit, but no action has been taken.
-
edhelas
daniel, +1
-
moparisthebest
and you can tell even in conversations which tries to hide it (if you disconnect an account, then toggle it back on, the 'Connecting...' phase takes FOREVER)
-
edhelas
for my account, I have ~5/6MB to download from the server
-
Holger
goffi: type=normal will only go into MAM if it has a body, according to the rules.
-
goffi
Holger: oh I see, then this should be changed. But keeping headline is really bad idea IMO
-
Holger
goffi: And I think it's desirable to agree on a single way for syncing PEP items. If one client depends on on_sub_and_presence and another one disables it, that won't help UX.
-
goffi
Holger: the fact is that it can be disabled already now
-
daniel
goffi: about the amount of data on connect? That was the summit two years ago even
-
goffi
daniel: yes
-
jonasw
aaand we’re back to persistent/transient messages :)
-
Holger
goffi: I was not arguing it can't :-) I was wondering about what's desirable.
-
daniel
Yes. I would really like to have a recursive disco caps hash thing that also hashes items
-
goffi
Holger: I generaly like the fact that you can adapt to your special case, but the trick is as it is done now, we can't be sure that we have the desired bahaviour without checking node config
-
jonasw
daniel, just the list of disco items or whole pubsub items?
-
daniel
Or rewrite Conversations to hold state across restarts and just resume all the time
-
daniel
jonasw: disco items mainly
-
jonasw
just disco items isn’t difficult
-
jonasw
we could add this to XEP-0390
-
daniel
(and their caps hashes of course)
-
jonasw
daniel, I’m not sure how that helps though
-
goffi
I'm not sure it would help to hash items, it's working well with feature because it's a quite static data, but items can change a lot and often (think about MUC rooms)
-
daniel
So I don't have to refetch all items' features on every connection
-
jonasw
what kind of items?
-
daniel
jonasw: when trying to figure out where the conference server or http upload server is
-
Holger
goffi: Our specs can be adapted to many use cases, but we're sometimes bad at specifying a single solution for a given use case, which results in bad interop. This would be another such case, IMO.
-
jonasw
daniel, ah, right
-
jonasw
daniel, do servers really have that many items that it matters?
-
daniel
jonasw: yes
-
goffi
Holger: I agree
-
jonasw
interesting, examples please?
-
jonasw
I wonder what’d be in there aside of a conference and an upload domain maybe
-
daniel
3 or 4 at least. Http upload, conference, pubsub
-
daniel
Echo sometimes
-
daniel
Proxy65
-
goffi
gateways
-
daniel
Gateways on old and stupid servers 😊
-
jonasw
daniel, I wonder whether we could expand the disco#items response to include hashes if servers support it
-
jonasw
that is a reasonable extension, and perfectly backwards compatbile
-
daniel
jonasw: yes I should probably raise this on the list again
-
jonasw
I’m all in for adding this to XEP-0390 if nobody finds a notable issues with it.
-
daniel
Two step process. Include the hashes in the items response. And then do a hash over the items
-
daniel
*the items hashes
-
daniel
I have a few ideas regarding Syntax but I'm on my phone right now. Can type them out tomorrow or so for the list
-
jonasw
daniel, I was thinking <item ...><caps xmlns="..."><hash>...</hash>...</caps></item>
-
edhelas
so regarding my proposal ?
-
daniel
There were also concerns from server items regarding how the server should know the caps hash of the item
-
daniel
(I think I brought this up before)
-
daniel
*from server developers
-
daniel
Thank God mailman offers a convenient way to search the archive and Flows offer to setup discord way rejected
-
Holger
Discourse even :-)
-
goffi
daniel: why "on old and stupid servers" ?
-
daniel
goffi: because 2005 just called and wants their broken transports into networks nobody uses back
-
edhelas
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html , looks like MAM to me
-
daniel
A call our friends at matrix never received by the way
-
goffi
daniel: there are gateways for IRC, mattermost, Skype, etc. I would not say nobody use those
-
edhelas
gateways that are implementing 20% of the features, buggy, breaks after weeks/months
-
edhelas
maybe except for IRC
-
goffi
thats for bad gateways
-
edhelas
because it's a quite stable protocol
-
goffi
Is there any spec to resend message by a server when destinee server is offline? Something like SMTP which retry after a delay?
-
Ge0rG
goffi: one could use 0198 on s2s links
-
goffi
GeOrG: that works for short outage in existing server, but I'm thinking more about first message to offline server.
-
Ge0rG
goffi: it might be a better UX to reject the message immediately. How are you supposed to know if that server exists at all?
-
goffi
you're not, but would be nice to try for a little while like email.
-
Zash
Some servers do
-
jonasw
goffi, I think trying for a while isn’t a good idea for IM
-
jonasw
(for certain definitions of "while")
-
jonasw
a few minutes may be ok
-
Zash
That's great when it's spam they are trying to send, and you end up with one billion connection attempts
-
goffi
Zash: same for email, and it works quite OK
-
Zash
Email isn't Instant Messaging
-
Ge0rG
But Jabber is the Email of IM!
-
Holger
goffi: I'm about to implement just that. I think it's horrible that we don't survive remote server reboots.
-
Holger
goffi: But I don't think we need any spec for that.
-
Ge0rG
isn't "survive" very relative?
-
Ge0rG
I think it would be a better UX, in a federated IM network, to have a "send again" button on failed messages.
-
Zash
Fail early, fail often!
-
Holger
Users love errors.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: yeah, silent failure is much better.
-
Holger
Did I suggest that?
-
Holger
Of course you return an error if retrying fails for n minutes.
-
Ge0rG
I think that having N>1 wouldn't be wise.
-
Holger
Ge0rG: IIRC I can submit a message from Yaxim while I'm offline? Why don't you return an error?
-
fippo
goffi: servers would have a hard time keeping track of order requirements. so this is probably a responsibility of clients.
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Why not? Because INSTANT?
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Why do we accept pending 0198 sessions for N minutes where N>1 then?
-
Ge0rG
Holger: because instant, yes.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: yaxim has a clear UI indication for offline messages.
-
moparisthebest
just make sure you have appropriate backoff set up, otherwise a server gets DOS'd, then good servers trying to reconnect and send messages end up DDOS'ing it
-
Ge0rG
Holger: do you have the same on s2s?
-
goffi
Holger: the issue is as a client I want to know if I can rely on this behaviour or not
-
Holger
Ge0rG: No. Just like I don't for the last hop from the recipient's server to the recipient's client.
-
Holger
goffi: You should rely on the message either being delivered or an error being bounced, IMO.
-
goffi
fippo: order would be hard to keep indeed
-
Ge0rG
Holger: but that server at least knows if the client exists.
-
goffi
Ge0rG: XMPP is not only about instant messaging
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, Holger, you could return a type="continue" error while retrying :)
-
Holger
Ge0rG: So we must return an error immediately because you can't wait 5 minutes for the error if you sent a message to a non-existent contact? Seriously?
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: a what?
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6120#section-8.3.2
-
Ge0rG
Oh god. I wonder if there are any clients implementing that.
-
Holger
Might be a good idea.
-
jonasw
Holger, write a XEP which specifies that behaviour for any intermediary and also adds an element which indicates until when delivery will be re-tried
-
Zash
Something like the "We're still trying to deliver your email" notifications?
-
jonasw
Zash, yupp, but with more easily available semantics
-
Holger
Please hold the line!
-
Zash
Is there anything saying how many type=error replies you can get?
-
jonasw
not that I recall
-
Zash
Except for <iq>
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: what kind of stanza do you send to revert a type="continue" condition?
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, any other?
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: any other what?
-
Ge0rG
any other error?
-
jonasw
I see
-
jonasw
hrm
-
jonasw
things are getting interesting again
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, maybe an opt-in is better for this type of stuff
-
jonasw
in which case another type="continue" "error" (meh) could be sent which indicates that the delivery has continued to the next hop
-
Ge0rG
we need a new error type "continued"
-
jonasw
that requires a change to RFC 6120 ;-)
-
Ge0rG
isn't this about EXTENSIBLE?
-
moparisthebest
also as an email client you have no idea if your email is delivered ever, or whether you will get a delivery failure notification or not either
-
Holger
I think just retrying a few times instead of giving up immediately will make everyone else happy :-P
-
moparisthebest
so it's a pretty bad comparison
-
Holger
moparisthebest: You'll get a bounce a few days later.
-
moparisthebest
you *might*
-
goffi
it's not because email doen't do it that we can't
-
goffi
we have discovery for that
-
moparisthebest
also we know (I think) we are only going through 2 hops max, client1 -> server1 -> server2 -> client2
-
moparisthebest
email can travel through unlimited server hops, each of which can have their own policy where they just scrap your email and notify you or not
-
moparisthebest
the original argument was 'email retries so we should retry too' but that's not actually the case is my only point, in reality maybe your email server retries, but you can't count on anything
-
Holger
Dunno whether I said that, but my main point is "users want retries to happen automagically rather than having to cope with temporary issues themselves".
-
goffi
moparisthebest: no, the original question was "Is there any spec to resend message by a server when destinee server is offline?", and SMTP was just given as an example
-
goffi
and if a server implement that, I would be able to know it with disco, so I can display it properly in UI
-
moparisthebest
fair enough, I think I agree with Holger though, that there really doesn't need to be a spec, the server should optionally retry once or twice over a short time, and send back an error if unsuccesful
-
goffi
I was hoping for something on a long time (e.g. personal server offline for the week-end because of maintenance), on a short time a spec is probably not needed indeed.
-
moparisthebest
so I send a message to someone@conversation.im and don't get an error message for a week because I missed the ending s ?
-
goffi
moparisthebest: no, I think more about "your message has not been delivered, we'll try to continue sending it for 2 days before giving up"
-
moparisthebest
I still think a user tends to wait instead of double checking their spelling though
-
Ge0rG
Holger: how many attempts do you want to make? and what exactly are you going to attempt?
-
Ge0rG
Holger: I think it is valid for a server to cache a stanza and attempt all the SRVs, direct DNS entries, IPs etc before giving up, but no more than that.
-
moparisthebest
what if the DNS server is being rebooted ? :)
-
Ge0rG
I really think that it's better to expose an error in the first <60s and to allow the user to resend with one click.
-
moparisthebest
also you really aren't supposed to do that with SRV or DNS records
-
moparisthebest
yea I agree
-
moparisthebest
I mean, give or take a few seconds
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Well I would make this configurable, but my initial idea would be to retry for 5 minutes by default, as that's a typical 0198 timeout which seems to work for most people.
-
goffi
we were talking about using MAM for notification before, delivery would be important there: if a notification is sent while destinee server is offline, it will not get it, and the pubsub item may be missed. This would not be the case with a pure PEP notification.
-
Holger
Good point.
-
Holger
Maybe 0312 is not a bad solution for edhelas' issue.
-
Arc
board meeting in 3 minutes
-
Arc
ralphm: nyco: Martin: MattJ: here?
-
MattJ
Here
-
Martin
Here
-
Arc
So, the classic Bside board this week
-
Zash
3/?
-
nyco
here
-
Arc
3/5 but mattj, martin, and myself are a classic combo
-
nyco
go
-
Arc
ah nyco ruins it
-
nyco
sorrry
-
nyco
I can go
-
Arc
who's chairing this week?
-
Arc
nyco: its a joke
-
nyco
I am joking too
-
nyco
sorry for the misunderanding ;-)
-
Arc
humor subroutines confirmed
-
nyco
hehehe
-
Arc
so who's chairing this week?
-
Martin
I can chair, if just to break the silence...
-
nyco
thx
-
Martin
Ok, *bangs gavel in traditional fashion*
-
Martin
1) Roll call
-
Arc
here
-
nyco
o/
-
MattJ
Here
-
Martin
Splendid
-
Martin
2) Minutes, volunteers?
-
dwd
o/
-
Martin
Lovely
-
Martin
3) Topics for decisions
-
Martin
Running from Trello here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
-
nyco
SCAM: blog post on hold POSS booth meetup in Krakow
-
Martin
3.1) SCAM. Where did we end up with this?
-
nyco
if my agenda is related to the board
-
Martin
The agenda comes from Trello. If it's not on Trello, it doesn't get in.
-
Guus
https://trello.com/c/0Flwsyqs/278-scam
-
Guus
I've left a lot of questions for the board
-
Martin
OK, lets try and rattle through them then
-
Martin
3.1.1) Can SCAM have a budget for things like stickers and folders?
-
Arc
I thought we already approved that
-
Guus
nope - board approved a one-time reimbursement.
-
Arc
what kind of budget were you thinking?
-
nyco
sure, how much budget?
-
Arc
Guus: ?
-
nyco
that is below 1k
-
Ge0rG
maybe it would be useful to define per-purchase and per-month caps, and to require individual board approval for higher budgets?
-
Guus
500~1000 USD / year
-
Guus
sorry, I'm in a building that's being closed down, after which I've got a 2h commute - might be unresponsive.
-
nyco
yeah, that corresponds to our capacity, roughly
-
nyco
I'll have to go at :30
-
MattJ
That seems reasonable to me, though I realise that I don't have any idea how the XSF currently stands financially
-
Arc
we're doing good
-
Martin
^ What MattJ said
-
dwd
Roughly $10k balance, as I recall.
-
Arc
I'm good with $1k/year
-
MattJ
+1
-
Martin
Ditto, +1
-
Martin
nyco?
-
nyco
we vote on what?
-
Martin
$1k/year for SCAM
-
nyco
+1
-
Martin
Good, moving on
-
Martin
3.1.2)Can SCAM get access to the social media account(s) (for event announcement purposes). Notably: Twitter. The blog is accessible enough via PRs on the website project.
-
MattJ
How is Twitter currently handled? Who else has access to it?
-
stefandxm
is there a meeting going on?
-
dwd
stefandxm, Yes, XSF Board.
-
stefandxm
ty, then i will back off :)
-
nyco
we could use tools such as HootSuite or Buffer, so that everyone has its own account/password
-
Guus
(back, now from a parking lot with crappy reception)
-
nyco
so that the SM accounts passwds are not shared
-
Arc
or write a twitter-xmpp bot that does the same :-P
-
Arc
that was a joke
-
Guus
I'm less interested in the how, as in the approval itself.
-
Martin
So, we need to find out who has access, and hook them up with Guus, agreed?
-
nyco
is it a board duty to approve that?
-
Ge0rG
Arc: that bot would then post a dozen of russian spam messages a day, just to make a point.
-
dwd
nyco, In as much as it has not been devolved elsewhere.
-
Guus
I'd be happy to find the person(s) with access myself, btw.
-
nyco
SCAM should be responsible for SM accounts
-
Zash
Wasn't there a social media team or such before?
-
Guus
nyco: unsure, but topic for another meeting. SCAM is not commteam.
-
Guus
(yet?)
-
nyco
ah good point
-
jonasw
given the time is nearly up, are we still discussing technical details or is this on-topic?
-
nyco
I guess commTeam could merge in SCAM
-
jonasw
cause I’d like to have my trademark application discussed
-
nyco
for what it does...
-
Guus
nyco. please, first the questions at hand
-
Guus
I've been waiting for weeks on feedback
-
Guus
given the time limitation: your votes please?
-
Ge0rG
can't you just approve that SCAM team shall get access to SM?
-
Martin
OK, so, we're happy for SCAM to have access to SM?
-
Martin
+1 for me
-
nyco
+1 of course, I add the SCAM should be responsible for those accounts
-
Martin
Arc, MattJ, votes?
-
MattJ
+1
-
Guus
Martin, in the interest of time: could you quickly do the member confirmation, for the record?
-
Martin
Sure
-
Guus
should be a formality
-
Guus
tx
-
Martin
3.1.3) Does board approve Daniel Gultsch as a member of SCAM?
-
Martin
+1
-
nyco
+1
-
Arc
+1
-
Martin
MattJ?
-
Martin
OK, approved. Next:
-
Martin
3.1.4) Does board approve Nicolas Vérité as a member of the SCAM?
-
Martin
+1
-
nyco
+1 ;-)
-
MattJ
+1
-
nyco
it hurts, voting for myself
-
Martin
Arc?
-
Arc
+1
-
Martin
OK, approved. NExt:
-
Martin
3.1.5) Does board approve Guus der Kinderen as the team leader of SCAM?
-
Martin
+1
-
nyco
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_team
-
Arc
+1
-
nyco
+1
-
Martin
MattJ?
-
MattJ
+1
-
Martin
OK, approved. Next:
-
Martin
3.1.6) Setting up MUC and mailinglist for SCAM
-
Martin
+1
-
Arc
+1
-
nyco
is it needed?
-
nyco
we should create stuff when it is needed, because that's one more thing to manage and maintain
-
Guus
I've suggested to take over the summit-ones
-
edhelas
doing it here would we enough no ?
-
Guus
but could create new ones if desired
-
Guus
I don't have a strong preference either way.
-
Guus
nyco: I'd prefer the team to be addressable by people seeking assistence.
-
Arc
ive gtg
-
nyco
I see
-
nyco
+1
-
Arc
+1
-
Martin
OK, approved, next:
-
Martin
3.2) Apply for trademark sublicense for JabberCat
-
Martin
Relevant GitHub PR here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/358
-
nyco
+1
-
Martin
+1 from me
-
MattJ
I think a mailing list is ok (because we don't have one suitable already), but probably this MUC would suffice (and has more people active in it)
-
Guus
(Thank you for pushing all my questions through. The SCAM trello card can be archived now)
-
Martin
Sorry it took so long Guus, glad we got there in the end.
-
nyco
gotta go as well
-
Martin
MattJ: Do you have an opinion on the trademark license? Just needs your +1 to get it done.
-
MattJ
+1
-
dwd
As a point of order, it looks like the Board may not be quorate anymore. Although I cannot recall its quorum rules. (Also, if ralphm is actually about that'd solve the issue).
-
Guus
(nyco voted on the last item, but is now gone)
-
Martin
Nyco did his +1 before disappeareing
-
Martin
And we're not quorate any more, so I guess we should disband
-
nyco
sorry, bye! ;-)
-
dwd
Yes, indeed. Just noting this might curtail the meeting.
-
nyco
thx all!
-
Ge0rG
I'm okay with postponing my questions to next week.
-
Guus
sorry Ge0rG - mine are now out of the way though.
-
Ge0rG
This was a very intense and productive board meeting, so thanks to everybody
-
Martin
Ge0rG: If you send them to the members list, I can put them in Trello so they're ready, or are they in there somewhere already?
-
Ge0rG
Martin: all in trello already
-
Martin
Skipping 4) and 5) due to no people. And 6). 7) +1W
-
Martin
Done. Phew.
-
Ge0rG
SPAM and trademark fees
-
Guus
Martin: regular folk like us can add comments to cards, but not create cards. So, if board creates cards, others can fill in the blanks (not sure if everyone knows that). Could be helpful.
-
Martin
Ge0rG: Righto, yup, they're in there.
-
Martin
Guus: Good call, dwd, can you mention that at the end of the minutes?
-
Guus
there might be some cards that can now be removed, by the way. I've left housekeeping comments.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, FWIW, I'd be rather against a SPAM team/SIG. I think it can be, and should be, conducted in an existing venue (operators?)
-
Guus
ok, I'm going to drive home now. Thanks again for pressing things through.
-
moparisthebest
just generally curious, is there anything stopping cisco from just changing their mind and revoking the license to use jabber to the xsf and any sublicensees ?
-
stefandxm
i've a generic xml/xmpp question. about xml:lang; how is it suggested to use in iq stanzas. should the receiver respond with the same xml:lang or should if you make a "requested language" attribute have it explicitly added?
-
SamWhited
xml:lang is inherited, so you should just use whatever xml:lang they specified (probably on the stream, but maybe in the individual payload)
-
stefandxm
yes, but what about the response
-
stefandxm
ie; "i want information about xyz and i want the information in language nnn"
-
stefandxm
should that be implicitly understood by the language used in the request or should it be added in the payload as a specific attribute/request ?
-
SamWhited
It should be added in the payload or on the IQ itself if the one they sent doesn't match the stream.
-
SamWhited
XMPP is a bit odd in that there are two streams going on, one for input and one for output. xml:lang won't be shared between the two
-
stefandxm
exactly
-
stefandxm
so should i add a "requested-lang" to the payload in the iq 'get'
-
stefandxm
or should i make it implicitly / recommended that the responder uses the same lang as the request is marked
-
SamWhited
So the flow is that you decode the IQ they sent you, check the xml:lang (which is probably inherited from the input stream, but might also be set on the IQ or payload itself), then check your output encoders xml:lang (probably set on the initial stream) and if it doesn't match set xml:lang on the IQ or payload before you send it
-
SamWhited
No, the "requested lang" *is* the input's xml:lang value
-
SamWhited
yes, the second one
-
stefandxm
great
-
stefandxm
makes it easier for me :)
-
SamWhited
(someone who actually knows XML should double check me on that, but I'm pretty sure everything in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace gets inherited)
-
jonasw
SamWhited, not sure about the namespace, but xml:lang for sure gets inherited
-
Ge0rG
dwd: I don't care much where SPAM is handled, but there might be value in making it invite only
-
moparisthebest
the non-response is kind of what worries me, almost as if no one here knows anything about the jabber licensing scheme ... :)
-
moparisthebest
the point of xmpp for me is not to rely on the ongoing goodwill of some huge company, if we are indeed relying on the ongoing goodwill of cisco to use jabber, well, then I should just go back to google, hangouts?, or whatever it's called nowadays
-
SamWhited
moparisthebest: I don't know anything about the jabber licensing scheme, but the question also didn't make sense to me. A license *is* the thing that stops Cisco from changing their mind, no? Isn't the whole point of having a license or an agreement or whatever so that it's not just their word?
-
SamWhited
Also, it has nothing to do with using XMPP as that last thing suggests; it's just the term "Jabber".
-
moparisthebest
SamWhited, the only document I ever saw was a vague promise with a big NOT A LEGAL OR BINDING DOCUMENT prefix, from jabber inc to xsf before cisco bought them
-
moparisthebest
this is what I'm asking about, *is* there a license, and what does it look like, what are the terms
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, maybe you should try to get a hold of stpeter
-
jonasw
I think he’s most likely to have details and possibly even the related paperwork
-
moparisthebest
the license might say "cisco reserves the right to terminate this license at it's whim" for instance
-
moparisthebest
and that's fine, but if only stpeter has it, that's a problem too
-
jonasw
we just need to get large enough that Cisco wouldn’t dare to because we can generate enough negative press for them by whining publicly about it :>
-
moparisthebest
then if stpeter gets hit by a bus and cisco decides to revoke it (or sue everyone), then what? :P
-
jonasw
the bus factor thing has been discussed in one of last months board meetings btw
-
moparisthebest
SamWhited, true except there has been a push recently to standardize client language etc on the term 'jabber'
-
SamWhited
moparisthebest: https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Letter_Of_Intent.pdf
-
jonasw
SamWhited, nice find
-
SamWhited
See also: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background
-
moparisthebest
ah yea all I saw before was the letter of intent
-
SamWhited
which was the first result in a Google search for "Jabber license agreement" or something to that effect.
-
jonasw
anyone have a URL to the "Jabber Trademark Position Statement"?
-
jonasw
ah, it’s attached to the letter of intetn
-
edhelas
does a pubsub node should return <feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#publish'/> if the JID is not authorized to publish an item in that node (applies for all the other stuff in the disco#info) ?
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, SamWhited do I read that wrong? https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf is expired because it's only good for 12 months from 2003 and if it terminates in any other way than transferring trademark to JSF, trademark goes back to JINC ?
-
moparisthebest
I am not a lawyer and hate legal things grr
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, that document is only about enforcement of the trademark things I think
-
moparisthebest
so we probably just care about https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf now, I guess
-
moparisthebest
a couple questions about that, does it change anything legally that neither Jabber Inc nor JSF are a thing anymore (former purchased by cisco, latter now XSF) ?
-
jonasw
no, it doesn’t
-
jonasw
with the purchase Jabber Inc merged into Cisco, which is why everybody is talking about Cisco instead of JINC now
-
jonasw
the XSF is simply a renamer of JSF afaict, so legally the XSF has fully inherited whatever the JSF did
-
jonasw
IANAL though
-
moparisthebest
What does point 5. mean? "No Right to Assign or Sublicense" ?
-
jonasw
I don’t know.
-
jonasw
I wonder whether there’s a follow-up document to that enforcement thing
-
moparisthebest
and lastly after we answer that about #5
-
moparisthebest
cisco can terminate this within 30 days if xsf doesn't enforce something
-
moparisthebest
what are the chances of the xsf being able to enforce anything ever, let alone within 30 days?
-
moparisthebest
there is no lawyer on staff for sure, right?
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, take action and enforcing are two different things
-
jonasw
but yeah
-
jonasw
good job, gandi. searching for jabbercat.org domain name, it suggests gibberish.cat >.>
-
SouL
Are you going to use jabbercat.org, jonasw?
-
jonasw
SouL, I plan to
-
moparisthebest
sounds like you should use jabber.cat instead jonasw :)
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, gone
-
jonasw
and cat has terms I don’t want to have to adhere to
-
moparisthebest
sounds like the XSF needs to get to enforcing
-
moparisthebest
oh really like what?
-
jonasw
domain names are fair use something
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, with .cat, you need to support the catalan culture/language in some way
-
jonasw
people apparently simply put a google-translate-ed version of their page up
-
moparisthebest
ah ok, well, you'd support instant messaging in catalan right? :)
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, are domain names fair use? because https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/usage-guidelines.html 1.3 has a whole section about when they are not allowed
-
jonasw
yeah, it describes what falls under "fair use" and what doesn’t ;)
-
SouL
jonasw, as I said, if you want to use .cat I can really help with that! And they don't really care, so...
-
jonasw
jabber.cat is also a jabber service apparently: https://jabber.cat/
-
jonasw
so I don’t want to fight them :)
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, did you notice the first word haha, funny
-
moparisthebest
Això
-
jonasw
hm?
-
moparisthebest
isn't that your library name-ish?
-
SouL
Això means "this" :)
-
jonasw
hm, not really (aioxmpp vs Això)
-
SouL
well, "that"
-
moparisthebest
close
-
moparisthebest
shift it around a little aixòmpp and now you can register a .cat, no one will even notice
-
jonasw
vanitasvitae, firefox refuses to connect to geekplace.eu (you linked that in your protoxep thread on standards@) with HTTPS due to SEC_ERROR_CERT_SIGNATURE_ALGORITHM_DISABLED
-
vanitasvitae
Hm, thats Flows site.
-
moparisthebest
my firefox is fine
-
SouL
I wanted to get xmpp.cat but it was taken already
-
jonasw
maybe those are my facist cipher settings ... I think I disabled RC4 or something
-
moparisthebest
see what ssllabs says shortly, it's scanning
-
moparisthebest
ah it's using CAcert
-
jonasw
ah, maybe it’s the 1024 RSA thing then?✎ -
jonasw
ah, maybe it’s the 1024-bit RSA or the MD5 signature thing then? ✏
-
moparisthebest
tell flow 2015 called and wants him to use letsencrypt
-
moparisthebest
no CAcert isn't a trusted CA
-
jonasw
I imported it once
-
Zash
Everyone must use Let's Encrypt!
-
jonasw
since I used it myself extensively
-
jonasw
Zash, *Everyone MUST use Let's Encrypt!
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, probably Signature algorithm SHA512withRSA
-
moparisthebest
that's, not exactly standard
-
moparisthebest
https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=geekplace.eu
-
jonasw
meh, that link re-analyzes
-
moparisthebest
oh I didn't think it did, that's annoying
-
moparisthebest
your problem from your error message is you disabled SHA512withRSA as a cert algorithm, or, if you don't have CACert as trusted, it's root cert is signed with MD5withRSA
-
jonasw
whatever it is
-
moparisthebest
I hate to say it, but the site works with http too...
-
peter
jonasw: To answer your question from the editor@ room, there is no successor to the trademark license enforcement agreement of May 2003. That's when we were transitioning from JSF/Jabber to XSF/XMPP (read the list archives, someone called me Hitler!), and interest in registering anything with the word JABBER™ in it had already waned. It's fascinating to me that this issue is still alive 14 years later. :-)
-
moparisthebest
peter, also from https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf what does point 5. mean "No Right to Assign or Sublicense" ?
-
moparisthebest
I'm not a lawyer which is why I'd universally prefer something not trademarked like 'xmpp' than something I have to ask questions about like 'jabber' :(
-
jonasw
peter, I’m confused then. on what basis does the XSF operate according to the Exhibit A of the Letter of Intent, the text which has now become the usage guidelines on the website?
-
peter
moparisthebest: that means the XSF can't assign its right to sublicense the mark to another organization.
-
moparisthebest
that makes sense I guess
-
peter
jonasw: what's the URL for the letter of intent?
-
moparisthebest
and hopefully it wasn't an 'assignment' to go JSF -> XSF ? :)
-
jonasw
peter, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Letter_Of_Intent.pdf
-
peter
moparisthebest: no, that wasn't assignment, just a legal name change for the organization
-
jonasw
(that text I am talking about (Exhibit A there) is the Jabber Trademark Position Statement, which I couldn’t find elsewhere; it is referenced as basis in the Enforcement Agreement)
-
jonasw
also, wtf, that mailing list thread from back then
-
peter
jonasw: I'm confused by your confusion. :-) Could you explain your concern a bit more?
-
jonasw
peter, I’m still trying to find the legal documents which give the XSF the permission to sublicense Jabber, as we were wondering if and under which circumstances Cisco could terminate our (the XSF’) right to sublicense
-
peter
OK.
-
jonasw
I can’t read that from the License Agreement, because the terms the XSF seems to be operating on (the part of the Exhibit A / Jabber Trademark Position Statement / Usage Guidelines on the website) is not referenced there
-
jonasw
but IANAL, you have been there back then and may know more
-
jonasw
also, to lighten things up (quoting from that mail thread): > He is an extremely patient and tireless driving force > who deserves a great deal of recognition. Shame on you for your lack of > support. That is my perception, and I’ll use this opportunity to say Thanks for that.
-
peter
Aw, thanks. :-)
-
peter
jonasw: BTW are you a native speaker of English? If not (and even if you are!), these legal documents can be difficult to understand.
-
moparisthebest
I'm a native english speaker and still have problems groking lawyer-speak :)
-
jonasw
peter, no I’m not :(
-
jonasw
(the issue with legalese in any language is of course that you often don’t know you didn’t understand it :()
-
jonasw
still I’d expect some document which defines the guidelines under which the XSF can sublicense (but I may be wrong), but there doesn’t seem to be one if the Enforcement Agreement didn’t have a successor and expired (like I read it) after 12 months.
-
moparisthebest
the enforcement agreement he is talking about is https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf
-
jonasw
thanks, moparisthebest
-
moparisthebest
and I also read that it expired after 12 months
-
peter
So, a letter of intent is just that - a statement of principles and intention to work together toward something (in this case, an actual agreement regarding the trademark). At that time, there was quite a bit of controversy in the community about Jabber Inc., a drive to change the name to XMPP, and so on. The letter of intent was communicated to the community in late 2002, and as a result we developed the actual license agreement in March of 2003, and following that the enforcement agreement in May of 2003, see http://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf
-
peter
Ah, yes.
-
moparisthebest
but that expired in may of 2004 right?
-
peter
There was supposed to be a 12-month "trial period" and then a discussion about potentially transferring the trademark to the XSF. Everyone got busy with standardization of XMPP at the IETF and with business as usual at Jabber Inc. I seem to recall that we addressed this a bit later on. Let me go AFK for a few minutes and look in the physical files, which are in my home office here. brb
-
jonasw
thank you for your effort, peter :)
-
moparisthebest
man he really is the best, no one else would get up from a desk and thumb through files :)
-
peter
haha
-
peter
OK, so I don't see it in my physical files. I'll need to check the email history.
-
peter
My personal email history does not reveal anything, either. I do have a recollection that we addressed this 12-month topic at one point, but it was a long time ago. I might need to look at the archives of the board@ list.
-
peter
Oh, but we decided not to have archives for the board@ list. :(
-
jonasw
sure? the mailman claims it is members only
-
Guus
Don't we have any at all, or perhaps no public ones?
-
jonasw
you don’t find them at /pipermail/board, but at /mailman/private/board
-
jonasw
here: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/private/board
-
peter
I have admin privs on all the lists and I just checked.
-
jonasw
ugh
-
Guus
To bad
-
peter
The Board Archives Currently, there are no archives.
-
jonasw
so for all we know the XSF currently does not have any authority over the Jabber™ whatsoever?
-
peter
I can ssh to the machine and poke around.
-
peter
jonasw: the XSF has authority, just not completely *documented* authority.
-
jonasw
okay :)
-
peter
I've been in communication about various trademark issues with JINC legal counsel and Cisco legal departments before JINC was acquired, after JINC was acquired, and after I left Cisco. There has never been any question that the XSF has continued authority to sublicense use of the JABBER mark.
-
peter
And I made sure that this was specifically re-affirmed when Jabber Inc. was acquired by Cisco in 2008.
-
peter
We just don't have a good paper trail on things after 2003.
-
Guus
Alex perhaps?
-
moparisthebest
peter, just recently there has been a bit of a push to revive 'jabber', and I'm more concerned if you get hit by a bus and cisco turns evil, they could probably just pull it?
-
moparisthebest
at least if there is no paperwork
-
peter
I can ask my contacts at Cisco legal if they have any additional paperwork.
-
moparisthebest
even now I'd guess recollections wouldn't hold up in court
-
peter
Guus: I've always been the keeper of the paperwork.
-
Guus
K
-
peter
I'd be more worried about the bus factor than "just pulling it".
-
peter
After all, Cisco's (and before that Jabber Inc.'s) actual *behavior* since 2003 shows a continuous recognition that the JSF/XSF has the right to sublicense use of the mark.
-
peter
However, it would be a good thing for me to reach out to my contacts in Cisco legal because (a) people come and go (b) the new people don't necessarily know (c) maybe they have copies of something I don't have.
-
moparisthebest
that's true I think they do heavily consider past, uh, actions/behavior
-
Ge0rG
I'm slightly worried that Cisco legal will contact "the XSF" with a 30 day deadline to handle some specific case of trademark misuse, and that letter won't arrive in time (or board won't meet in time) and we will lose our sub-license.
-
peter
Ge0rG: Thanks for your concern. When I reach out to Cisco legal, I will mention the desirability of having a backup person to contact in case I get hit by a bus.
-
Guus
(also, we'd be bummed for other than trademark reasons, Peter)
-
moparisthebest
thanks for clarifying Guus :)
-
Guus
trying to spread the love ;)
-
peter
Guus: :-)
-
Guus
peter, if you have time for another, although more trivial, issue: according to Raja, you and someone else were involved with creating the xmpp logo.
-
Guus
I've asked him about that weird orange bit that continues to bug me. He is going to check his original designs, but was confident that it wasn't him that designed it like that. But, from what I gather, the design was a team effort of sorts
-
Guus
context: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/363
-
Guus
so, as a potential co-designer of that logo: what's your take on it?
-
peter
I have a graphics idiot and would not have been involved with that level of design. :-)
-
peter
s/have/am/
-
peter
Guus: you contacted Raja Sandhu about it?
-
peter
I don't recall anyone else being involved.
-
Guus
yup
-
peter
He's a nice guy, say hi for me. :-)
-
Guus
he mentioned you and someone else that he couldn't name.
-
peter
huh
-
peter
I never weigh in on graphics stuff because I know nothing.
-
peter
It was probably Matt Tucker.
-
peter
I think Matt introduced us to Raja.
-
Guus
fair enough. It's a long time ago
-
Guus
ah, I wondered about that. I saw Jive's logo in his portfolio :)
-
peter
Matt was CTO of Jive Software back in the day.
-
peter
He's started something new recently, I should check in with him.
-
dwd
peter, Igniterealtime FOundation, for one thing. :-)
-
Guus
Matt and me talk on occasion - he joined the Ignite Realtime Foundation board
- peter nods
-
Guus
but he started a new business too
-
peter
not igniterealtime, something more recent
-
peter
yeah
-
Guus
Koan, iirc
-
peter
https://koan.co
-
Guus
that's it
-
jonasw
peter, thanks for all the clarifications :)
-
peter
So says LinkedIn, anyway. ;-)
-
peter
jonasw: sure thing!
-
peter
I have a phone call here in a few minutes, bbiab.
-
Ge0rG
peter: my concern wasn't even the bus factor but just potential practical issues with a process that's not exercised but has grave consequences when it fails....
-
Guus
who's controlling our website? As in: do we have a work team?
-
jonasw
Guus, thanks for adding that commit, I totally forgot
-
Guus
no worries. My grand plan is to give you access to modify the website yourself.
-
Guus
we could use some additional merge-button-pushers
-
Guus
and you're effectively doing most of it anyway :)
-
jonasw
don’t count on it now that I’m editor
-
Guus
meh, it's just about you having the ability to press 'merge'
-
jonasw
yeah, hitting merge is responsibility ;-)
-
Guus
so that someone active, other than me, can apply changes if I fall of the edge of the world for a bit.
-
Guus
jonasw: no more than providing the PR itself :)
-
Ge0rG
People could inject evil things into their PRs, like matrix propaganda. We need to watch out!
-
Ge0rG
😀
-
jonasw
The Matrix was a great movie
-
jonasw
so nothing wrong with that
-
moparisthebest
what about the sequals though
-
jonasw
which sequels?
-
moparisthebest
good answer
-
Guus
but, my original question: who gets to say who gets access?
- jonasw holds baseball bat threateningly
-
jonasw
Guus, interesting question :)
-
jonasw
is website a subset of social media? ;-)
-
moparisthebest
gajim has decided to color Guus and Ge0rG the same and between that and the G I can no longer tell the difference :'(
-
Zash
Guu0rG
-
moparisthebest
didn't you guys have a proposal for fancy coloring?
-
moparisthebest
or, consistant coloring
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, yeh
-
jonasw
I have a pre-proto-xep in my xeps dir
-
jonasw
I should add some finishing touches for ProtoXEPing it
-
moparisthebest
yes please
-
Ge0rG
It turned out to require fancy floating point math
-
jonasw
not *that* fancy
-
Ge0rG
Like my last proposal for MUC limiting.
-
jonasw
muc limiting does FPM anyways
-
jonasw
(as does anything in lua)
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Ge0rG
In LUA
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moparisthebest
for a super optional client-side coloring xep I think a floating point requirement is acceptable
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Guus
do we still have a technical review team?
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Guus
it's purpose apparently is to find out how we can help stPeter more. :)
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Ge0rG
Least Usable Algorithms.
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Guus
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Review_team (I recognize but a few of the member names - possibly due to out-of-date content after the crash recovery)
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Ge0rG
This page was last modified on 26 August 2011
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Guus
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/365
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Guus
I was going to add just SCAM, but I tried to make it consistent by adding all teams.
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dwd
As noted against the PR, I think two of those teams are dead (and one is not a team, but a SIG, but lives yet).
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dwd
The two are Comms, Review, and UPnP. Let's start again. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Our three defunct teams are...
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Guus
You lost me. 😁
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Guus
Ah, three defunct teams, according to you, are Comms, Review and UPnP.
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Guus
Do we have members of those teams here to confirm?
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Guus
Peter, Kev, Nyco, from memory...
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jonasw
moparisthebest, I took a look at my draft for the color protoxep. there were a few edges to polish, unfortunately I’ll head to bed now. hopefully I get around to publish it tomorrow.
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moparisthebest
sweet, no rush
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dwd
Guus, No, Kev wasn't ever on the Review team, as he was on Council throughout its existence (as was I, I think).
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dwd
Guus, I'm not sure anyone who was on it is still even a member.
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fippo
let me check when upnp was done (aka: spec published)
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fippo
the upnp spec was published in february 2015 @ http://upnp.org/specs/arch/UPnP-arch-DeviceArchitecture-v2.0.pdf
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Guus
fippo: what does that mean in regards to the teams existence?
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fippo
guus: "job done" i'd say
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fippo
and upnp.org seems not to exist anymore
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moparisthebest
still registered though Open Connectivity Foundation, Inc.
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fippo
well, didn't notify the XSF about the change in name so... :-)