Thursday, September 14, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[05:59:31] <Guus> peter: Raja hi's you back. ;)
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[06:57:04] <Guus> Can someone verify that we formally disbanded the Communiations Team and the Review Team?
[06:58:07] <Guus> dwd seems to think so - lacking any documentation, it'd be good to have a second person weighing in.
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[07:01:27] <Guus> ah, I forgot that there was a discussion on a mailing list. I'll continue it there.
[07:02:21] <jonasw> is there an archive of board meeting minutes aside from the mailing list?
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[07:03:48] <Guus> the website has them, but not after 2015
[07:04:03] <Guus> ah, no
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[07:04:20] <Guus> those are council votes and member vote meeting minutes
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[07:04:21] <Guus> not board
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[07:05:20] <Guus> jonasw: you might know: can we configure the mailing list daemon to have mailing list archives, without accepting new messages? Close the list down, without removing the archive?
[07:05:34] <jonasw> Guus, yes
[07:05:54] <jonasw> there are a few ways. one would be to remove all members, another would be to set all members to moderated and add a matching moderation/rejection message
[07:06:18] <jonasw> that way the list formally continues to exist, anyone (who has permission) can read the archives, and if needed you can resume list operation at some ponit
[07:06:51] <jonasw> downside: the moderation/rejection notice thing can turn into backscatter quickly, but if simply discarding all messages is ok, that’d work too
[07:07:06] <Guus> tx
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[07:07:53] <jonasw> all of this can be done via the webinterface
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[07:10:08] <jonasw> my two cents is that removing the supposedly inactive teams from the website after two rather experienced members mentioned that they have shut down is probably fine
[07:10:18] <jonasw> if someone complains, git revert isn’t hard
[07:10:35] <jonasw> but I would probably wait it out too, if I was in your position ;-)
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[07:12:47] <Guus> jonasw: I'm modifying the PR as we type, and pointing to that PR in a mail reply.
[07:13:02] <Guus> people can weigh in on that, and if they don't, we'll eventually merge the PR
[07:13:29] <Guus> (but the PR doesn't take care of the MUC/Mailinglist entities, if they're there, so a bit more work might be needed)
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[07:24:30] <Guus> done / mailed.
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[07:24:54] <Guus> also, I'm out for now
[07:24:56] <Guus> bye
[07:25:13] <jonasw> gl
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[07:27:01] <jonasw> now I’m wondering whether it’d make sense to have loosly defined groups of occupants in MUCs which can be addressed with @foo, like @iteam. possible implementation: people who want to belong to a group publish <member xmlns="...">iteam</member> in their presence. their client will highlight on @iteam. other clients can show that @iteam refers to a specific group of people.
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[07:27:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: ITYM MIX.
[07:27:40] <jonasw> whatever
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[07:28:06] <jonasw> this is entirely independent of the relay as long as it publishes presence
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[07:28:14] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that the idea has merit, but I'd rather use the affiliation mechanism for that.
[07:28:18] <jonasw> meh, probably breaks horribly with MSN
[07:28:37] <jonasw> but a JID can only have one affiliation, and affiliations also have influence on the permissions
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[07:28:56] <Ge0rG> Damn. We can't have nice things.
[07:29:30] <Ge0rG> jonasw: [xep 317] is there.
[07:29:34] <jonasw> (publishing this in presence has the advantage that things like CSI can act on that)
[07:29:39] <Ge0rG> Sigh. Bots?! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
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[07:29:55] <jonasw> ha
[07:30:00] <Ge0rG> Is there an XEP to require bots to respond with a link to [xep FOO]?
[07:30:04] <jonasw> that looks much like what I proposed
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[07:30:38] <dwd> jonasw, Hats were intended as ad-hoc role based access control (sorta).
[07:30:49] <jonasw> syntactically anyways
[07:30:55] <dwd> jonasw, You're after self-selecting groups, right?
[07:30:59] <jonasw> yupp
[07:31:26] <dwd> jonasw, Self-selecting groups sound like an interesting concept.
[07:31:26] <jonasw> (that XEP needs some wording on "MUC service supporting hats MUST NOT forward <hats/> payload in presences sent by clients"
[07:31:27] <jonasw> )
[07:31:36] <jonasw> dwd, thanks ☺
[07:31:47] <jonasw> essentially it’d be publishing a list of words your client highlights on
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[07:31:56] <dwd> jonasw, I think XEP-0317 might need killing with fire, if it weren't an amusing bit of XSF lore.
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[07:33:03] <dwd> jonasw, Hmmm. Well. It's codifying a <reference/> system, that's for sure. Not so sure it'd be a simple text match, but maybe it would be in MUC.
[07:33:24] <jonasw> mmm, using reference for that is appealing
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[07:33:43] <SouL> jonasw, I would love that feature. I miss it at work, for example. But it is really useful I think.
[07:33:45] <dwd> jonasw, But anyway, it's a "publish a list in presence" thing, I think, if they're self-selecting, for MUC. For MIX, we could do something more formalised.
[07:34:02] <jonasw> dwd, MIX could simply gather that from presence into a pubsub node
[07:34:08] <jonasw> then clients don’t have to worry about things
[07:34:23] <jonasw> hm, then again, you probably don’t want to have the list to be the same in all rooms
[07:34:52] <jonasw> this would be a nice XEP to build on top of MUC, MIX and references.
[07:35:21] <dwd> jonasw, MIX occupants might not have any presence, though.
[07:35:41] <jonasw> dwd, yes, and there are other issues with that, so MIX indeed needs a different mechanism for this
[07:35:46] <dwd> jonasw, Oh, and yeah, MIX presence is just broadcast presence, isn't it?
[07:35:51] <Ge0rG> dwd: while we are on reference systems, were you able to get a grip on the reactions mechanism author?
[07:35:51] <tux> Good morning!
[07:35:52] <jonasw> exactly
[07:36:02] <jonasw> tux, good morning and congrats :)
[07:36:07] <dwd> Ge0rG, Sort of. Doesn't work as cleverly as I'd thought.
[07:36:10] <tux> jonasw: thanks :)
[07:36:33] <dwd> Ge0rG, But also our internal document describing it is 0 bytes. :-)
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[07:37:04] <tux> I tried to find out what "SCAM" means in the XSF context, but could not really find anything. (Mostly a resources page on the XMPP wiki; Google is not really helpful here.)

Could anybody please enlighten me? Or the newbies via members list? Am I just blind to the relevant paragraph/link?
[07:37:23] <dwd> tux, Summits Conferences And Meet-ups.
[07:37:25] <jonasw> tux, it is Summits, Conferences And Meetups team
[07:37:28] <Ge0rG> I think there are two important issues with hats/notify-strings/whatever in presence:
1. it helps a MUC service / user's server to determine "important" messages and to push them to CSI-inactive / Push enabled clients.
2. this is another data leak in E2EE scenarios
[07:37:35] <tux> Ah, thanks :D
[07:37:40] <dwd> tux, Outreach work team, basically.
[07:37:47] <Ge0rG> tux: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XSF_Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_workgroup
[07:37:51] <jonasw> Ge0rG, don’t do it with E2EE unless you can encrypt whole stanzas *shrug*
[07:38:10] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you know my position on E2EE :P
[07:38:18] <jonasw> :)
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[07:38:23] <jonasw> I indeed do
[07:38:44] <tux> That page even mentions "SCAM", but Wiki search for SCAM only returns this page:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/Material
[07:38:47] <Ge0rG> so, "jonasw> Ge0rG, don’t do it with E2EE" - full stop.
[07:39:08] <jonasw> Ge0rG, E2EE in MUC contexts is not my department
[07:39:11] <Ge0rG> tux: there is also a wiki category "SCAM". Somebody should add a descriptive text to it.
[07:39:36] <tux> Ge0rG: if its fine with you I'd just add the link for now
[07:39:44] <dwd> Ge0rG, Thanks for volunteering, Somebody.
[07:39:49] <tux> (link to scam team page)
[07:39:49] <jonasw> Ge0rG, can you rename and redirect the "XSF_Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_workgroup" page to "Summits, Conferences And Meetups (SCAM) workgroup" or something?
[07:39:56] <jonasw> then it’d turn up in the search more reliably
[07:40:11] <jonasw> (I heard you have wiki powers)
[07:40:11] <Ge0rG> dwd: I was trying to motivate our new member, actually
[07:40:11] <dwd> Also, it's a "Work Team", which has a formal meaning within our bylaws.
[07:40:27] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ah, then while renaming fix it to Work Team too :)
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[07:41:12] <dwd> We should probably create a parallel "Special Interest Group", too, in order to have an open group without executive powers.
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[07:41:54] <Ge0rG> dwd: we should watch out that we don't end up with more groups than we have active members.
[07:42:36] <tux> I've just done this for now: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SCAM/
[07:42:56] <jonasw> tux, good start, but trailing slashes are uncommon in wiki URLs
[07:43:10] <jonasw> also, try a #REDIRECT instead (<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects>)
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[07:44:08] <tux> (Why does the wiki engine not remove the trailing slash from the URI? -.-)
[07:44:34] <Ge0rG> tux: because you added one?
[07:44:50] <Ge0rG> /es are kind of funny in mediawiki
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[07:45:11] <jonasw> / is just another character to mediawiki
[07:45:14] <jonasw> it doesn’t care
[07:45:22] <jonasw> while it cares way too much about capitalisation
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[07:45:38] <tux> I see.
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[07:48:43] <tux> Okay ,I should have moved the SCAM/ page instead of creating another one
[07:48:57] <tux> the SCAM redirect is done, but I cannot get rid of SCAM/
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[07:49:08] <jonasw> you might need Ge0rGs superpowers to remove SCAM/
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[07:49:47] <jonasw> yes, &action=delete gives a permissions error
[07:50:17] <tux> Ge0rG: can you please remove SCAM/ ?
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[07:50:30] *tux is off to a meeting
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[07:51:47] <Ge0rG> tux: done as requested
[07:52:11] <tux> Ge0rG: thanks :)
[07:52:19] <edhelas> would it be possible to add https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/T-DOSE_2017 to SCAM ?
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[08:11:09] <Ge0rG> edhelas: at your service
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[08:12:22] <edhelas> Guus, you just got a mail from Jean-Paul Saman to know what is the status
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[08:13:28] <edhelas> if there is people that lives in Belgium, NL or Europe in general and are interested about a nice little event in Eindhoven in November please have a look at the T-DOSE 2017 page on the wiki :)
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[08:15:35] <SouL> Guus, regarding the logo, if you check this: https://xmpp.org/images/promo/xmpp_server_guide_2017.pdf it looks OK there. Are there two versions of the logo or the author of that PDF updated the logo himself?
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[08:30:14] <Guus> SouL: unsure
[08:32:38] <SouL> I was sure that I saw the logo like you say on Github, but didn't want to say anything until I could find a proof
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[08:37:18] <Guus> SouL: I'm traveling. Please comment in github
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[09:37:10] <edhelas> hi, I'm working on my PR for pubsub#multi-items in the 0060
[09:37:20] <edhelas> what do you think of "The service supports the storage of multiple items per node and requires the pubsub#max_items configuration item to be exposed to the user, and allow sensible values."
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[09:46:54] <goffi> edhelas: I don't see how max_items can indicate that there is no maximum (unlimited items)
[09:47:06] <goffi> I think it's missing
[09:47:39] <edhelas> should we add that feature as well ?
[09:47:51] <edhelas> what about setting it to zero ?
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[09:48:15] <goffi> it it's made mandatory with multi-items, it should be there for sure
[09:48:43] <goffi> also max_items use underscore (_) while multi-items uses dash (-), should be made coherent
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[09:50:15] <goffi> hum it's max_items which is not coherent with others, too late to change probably
[09:50:50] <goffi> max_items is not even in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#features with others :(
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[09:51:34] <edhelas> should I add it ?
[09:51:38] <edhelas> I'll add it
[09:51:44] <goffi> edhelas: max_items is not enough by the way ? If I have max_items > 1 I have multi-items right?
[09:52:02] <goffi> I guess you should yes
[09:52:11] <goffi> it will be reviewed by council anyway
[09:52:21] <edhelas> yes but it's a feature exposure
[09:52:39] <edhelas> if you have max-items exposed, I don't know if you can support more than 1
[09:52:50] <edhelas> multi-items ensure that
[09:53:24] <goffi> edhelas: if max-items = 10 we know that we can support 10, and we should have a value for unlimited
[09:53:27] <edhelas> or basically we change max-items and we say that it should be here if the server doesn't support more than one
[09:53:34] <goffi> looks like redundant to me, but I may be missing something
[09:54:10] <edhelas> goffi, what if the node is not even configured, or not existant ?
[09:54:24] <edhelas> how can I know if the service can handle more than one ?
[09:54:38] <goffi> edhelas: oh you want this to be exposed by the service, not the node, OK
[09:54:48] <goffi> max_items don't make sense for a service indeed
[09:55:27] <goffi> or maybe it does, not sure actually
[09:55:53] <edhelas> ralphm, here ?
[09:57:12] <edhelas> goffi, afaik, max-items is not a feature exposed by the service, but just a configuration variable
[09:57:21] <edhelas> that's why it's max_items and not max-items
[09:58:10] <edhelas> multi-items actually tell that info to the user and force max_items to be set above 1
[09:59:16] <goffi> edhelas: but we need to know how many items, if it's multi-items but with 2 items max, it's not useful for e.g. a blog
[09:59:50] <edhelas> this is something different, I'm talking about the service features again here
[10:00:04] <goffi> that doesn't change the point
[10:00:14] <jonasw> Guus, your logo thing is a cannot unsee
[10:00:16] <edhelas> what you are requestion is exposing max_items to the node metadata, like the title or the number of subscribers
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[10:00:23] <edhelas> *requesting
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[10:01:05] <edhelas> goffi, I'll add that in the metadata
[10:01:06] <goffi> edhelas: it's also a service thing, if I create a new node, I need to know if I can store more that 5 items for instance
[10:01:50] <edhelas> this all "authorisation" thing is quite buggy in the 0060
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[10:02:21] <edhelas> "if I create a new node" => there's no way to know if you are even allowed to create a new node, or publish in it
[10:02:44] <edhelas> 0060 is based on a "fail to try" pattern
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[10:09:36] <edhelas> this would require to expose the access model
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[10:13:41] <goffi> I don't see harm in that
[10:14:48] <edhelas> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/500/files
[10:16:19] <goffi> edhelas: it's missing a way to indicate "no limit"
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[10:19:24] <edhelas> goffi, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/500#issuecomment-329440142
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[10:20:02] <goffi> edhelas: OK good
[10:20:23] <Guus> jonasw: welcome in my world of cannot unsee.
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[10:23:55] <Link Mauve> “16:08:43 SamWhited> Because we have a lot of different clients and servers and enough interoperability problems without denying every element that has some clients proprietary extension in it.”, funny you say that, I’ve found a bunch of bugs in various implementations by doing exactly that. ^^
[10:24:13] <Link Mauve> Not that I would use it in release mode, but for debug it’s a fantastic tool.
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[11:06:34] <goffi> Link Mauve: what are you talking about? Looks interesting (I have not message from SamWhited in my logs, but I may be missing a part)
[11:07:51] <Holger> goffi: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2017-09-12/#15:05:02
[11:07:57] <Link Mauve> goffi, it was about making a strict XMPP parser, which checks that no foreign element or attribute is set on known elements.
[11:08:08] <Link Mauve> https://hg.linkmauve.fr/xmpp-parsers
[11:08:26] <Link Mauve> I already found many issues in many different implementations, both clients and servers.
[11:09:01] <jonasw> Astro
[11:09:04] <jonasw> the world’s small
[11:09:27] <jonasw> Link Mauve, do you do your DNS yourself?
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[11:12:27] <Link Mauve> jonasw, no, I use the domain crate.
[11:12:43] <jonasw> I see, anyways, I PM’d you with some issues I found, you may want to raise them with your provider
[11:13:01] <Link Mauve> Also, xmpp-parsers itself doesn’t handle any connection, it only parses XML into Rust structures.
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[11:13:09] <jonasw> ahhhh
[11:13:11] <jonasw> different thing
[11:13:16] <jonasw> I was talking about DNS for linkmauve.fr
[11:13:21] <Link Mauve> Oh, then yes I do. ^^
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[11:28:07] <Ge0rG> The author of https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/this-spam-service-will-charge-25-to-stop-spamming-you/ seems to be very interested in XMPP <https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/author/catalin-cimpanu/> I wonder if we should contact him and involve him a bit in SPAM.
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[11:31:20] <Link Mauve> Fixed, I forgot to bump my SOA, so my secondary didn’t receive the newer revision.
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[11:34:51] <SouL> Ge0rG, sounds like a very great idea! Nice to read this also "the easiest way to reach Catalin is via his XMPP/Jabber address at campuscodi@xmpp.is."
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[11:50:42] <Ge0rG> SouL: yeah, I was positively impressed.
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[11:52:56] <stefandxm> Iam making a protocol for time series data. I am seeking feedback to see if I should make an XEP of it. It is available at http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/
[11:53:59] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yes we should
[11:54:01] <jonasw> will you do it?
[11:54:15] <stefandxm> (it is work under progress)
[11:54:19] <stefandxm> or in progress :-)
[11:54:46] <dwd> stefandxm, The best way to seek such feedback is to submit it to the XSF as a protoXEP.
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[11:55:27] <stefandxm> dwd, yeah. but its quite a lot of work to rewrite it to xep format so I'd like some comments before committing to that
[11:56:24] <intosi> stefandxm: I note you added an element starting with xml (xmlschema), which is generally reserved for the XML spec itself (see XML 1.0 §3)
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[11:56:49] <stefandxm> ty. ill fix that
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[11:57:03] <intosi> Marv!
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[11:57:34] <stefandxm> iam also struggling with my xml schema expertise in specifying "type" information. i tried to use xs:facet as xsd itself is doing but i couldnt get it through the parser
[11:57:46] <Link Mauve> stefandxm, ugh, your server (opensource.clayster.com) doesn’t support HTTPS. :/
[11:57:48] <stefandxm> but the parser seems broken in mono so it might be valid
[11:58:04] <stefandxm> link mauve, i know.
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[11:59:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I will after reading all his articles
[11:59:54] <jonasw> stefandxm, I’m having a hard time to figure out what the specifciation does and how it works in the end. A few examples would be useful
[12:00:29] <stefandxm> jonasw, did you check the graphs in http://opensource.clayster.com/lwtsd/Communications/lwtsd/#operations-overview ?
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[12:01:01] <jonasw> yes, but those don’t show me why you’d use that specification for what
[12:01:03] <stefandxm> but yes, examples are coming
[12:01:15] <jonasw> and what those resources are etc.
[12:01:31] <stefandxm> they are abstract so it may be that ;-)
[12:01:35] <jonasw> possibly :)
[12:01:40] <jonasw> examples would be great
[12:01:45] <stefandxm> yeah. coming
[12:02:11] <intosi> Work in progress, thanks for sharing this early!
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[12:02:34] <stefandxm> also, in the protocol definition it doesnt make sense to "sell in" the protocol itself. but its a bit tough to read from scratch i know that
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[12:03:11] <stefandxm> in the commercial side we make tutorials and stuff for the protocols but it doesnt make sense to add to the protocol itself
[12:03:18] <jonasw> generally it sounds like something I could use myself, but I’m having a hard time to get a quick grasp on what it does
[12:03:19] <stefandxm> but xml examples is coming
[12:03:50] <stefandxm> its a generic data manipulation for time series data ie data that has a originated time. like sensor data
[12:04:04] <stefandxm> it has operations for write and read and subscriptions
[12:04:27] <stefandxm> the subscriptions work with triggers (and filters to be in another namespace). but it doesnt push the data it only informs new data is available
[12:04:50] <stefandxm> then the consumer needs to re-subscribe within a read to get new notifications
[12:05:12] <jonasw> in general, it may be sensible to look at RSM (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html>), maybe you can re-use some syntax from there
[12:06:09] <stefandxm> i dont see how i can apply it in a generic sense
[12:06:28] <stefandxm> i want to support paginating in both total data set and within resource data set
[12:06:40] <stefandxm> since each resource may include n points
[12:07:19] <intosi> That's where RSM is generally useful, provided you have stable ids for every data point within a set.
[12:07:49] <stefandxm> it wont
[12:07:56] <stefandxm> you may also consider the data as being volatile
[12:08:03] <intosi> Then how will you do pagination?
[12:08:20] <stefandxm> by seeking and time frames
[12:08:24] <intosi> Time range?
[12:08:48] <jonasw> stefandxm, if you treat the exact timestamp as ID, you have what you need for RSM, afaict
[12:08:59] <stefandxm> but there may be many points on exact same timestamp
[12:08:59] <intosi> ^ what jonasw said
[12:09:24] <intosi> Not inherently ordered then?
[12:09:26] <stefandxm> so the source will have to store them as unique. which is not impossible but then you get modification/upsert hell
[12:09:43] <intosi> (within the same timestamp)
[12:09:47] <stefandxm> so the id will most likely not be an id in real life scenario
[12:10:13] <stefandxm> for me an id should be an id and not a seek index
[12:10:27] <stefandxm> so for say a schema where the schema has not changed the id solution makes sense to me
[12:10:34] <stefandxm> but not for the data points were ids are not required
[12:10:42] <intosi> Fair enough, which is also why MAM has separate start / end timestamps to be used in conjection with RSM
[12:10:47] <intosi> conjunction
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[12:12:09] <stefandxm> the "volatileness" of the data in the data source makes it imo impossible to make seeking/pagination 100% without overhead. but in an application that can be addressed
[12:12:27] <stefandxm> but ive never seen a generic approach that works for all applications
[12:13:24] <stefandxm> unless you want to remove the "volatileness". which is often doable but not always (demands a lot more resources/memory in the data source)
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[12:14:37] <stefandxm> btw. this is a moving forward from our side to replace the retracted xeps by peter waher named sensor data, control and the numberless iot events
[12:14:50] <stefandxm> and make it more generic and suitable for applications not using "iot"
[12:15:36] <stefandxm> the biggest challenge i see with this protocol is making the schema for resources easy to be implement but still extendable. thats why there is a simplified schema and a xmlschema (the element i will rename)
[12:16:06] <Flow> If i'm not mistaken the major concern with peter's IoT XEPs was them not being very XMPP idiomatic
[12:16:40] <stefandxm> personally i have many concerns with them
[12:16:54] <stefandxm> but since they are history its no point to argue about them imo
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[12:17:25] <Flow> course, that's more a thing of preventing history repeating itself
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[12:17:58] <Flow> stefandxm: what is a "schema for resources"?
[12:18:03] <stefandxm> yeah and thats why we are not sure if going via xsf is the perfect fit. but as long as we try to do it generic and xmpp-ish iam willing to give it a try :)
[12:18:18] <stefandxm> flow, describing data types and capabilities
[12:19:08] <stefandxm> ie if a resource is an int or a string and if you can read it, write to it and what filters it supports to reduce noise in subscriptions
[12:19:46] <Flow> I don't see the challenge exchanging data without prior knowledge about the structure, amount and type of the data
[12:20:20] <Flow> And I assume by "capabilities" you mean something like "remote control"? If so, that's also mostly solved by ad-hoc commands I'd guess
[12:21:18] <stefandxm> nah, just the stuff i wrote above really
[12:21:34] <stefandxm> but they may be done by writes with user specified types
[12:22:19] <stefandxm> for me data schematics is always a challenge :-)
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[12:22:53] <stefandxm> but imo i managed to get it rather neat. but i am not sure everyone will agree hehe
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[12:43:05] <stefandxm> ok. i believe i updated the xml* thing with new names (now extended schema)
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[13:02:43] <moparisthebest> are there security concerns with loading up unknown/untrusted schemas that you get sent?
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[13:03:38] <moparisthebest> I don't really know anything about it, but I'm wondering if you could maliciously replace some XMPP schemas or something
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[13:07:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "Consistent Color Generation" --> "Consistent Nickname Color Generation"
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[13:07:29] <Ge0rG> or "User"
[13:07:31] <jonasw> Ge0rG, there are other use cases for that, such as roster groups
[13:07:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: as it is, the name lacks context.
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[13:08:05] <jonasw> Ge0rG, comment on that on-list, so I don’t forget when I prepare an update
[13:08:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that having a too-specific qualifier beats no qualifier.
[13:08:31] <moparisthebest> I saw it as more generic, like you said, roster entries, bookmarks, etc
[13:08:35] <moparisthebest> but yea name doesn't matter
[13:08:43] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: names DO matter.
[13:09:11] <moparisthebest> xep names don't matter that much to me
[13:11:42] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: they matter to client devs
[13:12:13] <moparisthebest> just curious now, why?
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[13:13:04] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it is already hard enough to find relevant XEPs
[13:13:10] <stefandxm> mop: there are concerns with dtd schemas
[13:13:18] <stefandxm> mop, so they are defaultly prohibited by most parsers
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[13:14:19] <moparisthebest> stefandxm, are those the type of schemas you are talking about sending or not?
[13:14:35] <stefandxm> these are not
[13:14:39] <stefandxm> these are XML Schemas (xsd)
[13:15:39] <stefandxm> but if you chose to follow dtds then you may have problems
[13:15:52] <moparisthebest> what if I send a schema for, uh, MAM or something but that I maliciously changed, would that overwrite the correct MAM schema?
[13:16:35] <stefandxm> i guess that should be a topic yes
[13:16:44] <stefandxm> how to properly localize the namespace to the session
[13:17:01] <moparisthebest> and that might even be specific to XML libraries or whatever
[13:17:01] <stefandxm> or rather just not allow it to replace any existing schemas known to the client
[13:17:07] <stefandxm> and only use them for the session
[13:17:08] <moparisthebest> just might need to be considered
[13:17:17] <stefandxm> yes
[13:17:21] <stefandxm> very good suggestion
[13:17:23] <stefandxm> i shall fix
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[13:20:41] <moparisthebest> I guess the only danger is if there is not a safe way to do this with any library or XML in general, then the design is inherently insecure and you can't be sending schemas around
[13:21:04] <moparisthebest> I would think there is a safe way but I just don't know at all
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[13:26:23] <stefandxm> there is secure ways
[13:26:41] <stefandxm> tbh i never considered someone would do it an non-secure way
[13:26:45] <stefandxm> but i think it should be clarified
[13:27:14] <stefandxm> in any way this is a more secure way than following URIs
[13:27:22] <stefandxm> as long as the xmpp server is secured
[13:27:31] <stefandxm> and you only use the schema in the entity to entity session
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[13:44:06] <Tobias> jonasw, you know about http://tools.medialab.sciences-po.fr/iwanthue/ ?
[13:44:15] <jonasw> Tobias, you linked that, yes
[13:44:24] <Tobias> ah..k :)
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[13:47:17] <Ge0rG> Yay, it looks like the psi and psi+ devs got resurrected and released a new version last month!
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[13:47:47] <stefandxm> moparisthebest: ive added a note on it now
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[13:48:36] <moparisthebest> Excellent :)
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[13:48:50] <stefandxm> problem with xml schemas are basically the same as the xml itself. its vulnerable to parse it and its vulnerable not to use it hehe
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[13:51:29] <stefandxm> another thing along these lines; ive been thinking about the maxOccours in the schemas
[13:51:43] <stefandxm> it would make sense to add a sensible max rather than having unbounded
[13:51:47] <stefandxm> esp in the requests
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[13:52:28] <stefandxm> this way its possible for the server to protect the receiver. but it also would mean that basically the clients should tell the server what namespaces they want to filter
[13:52:59] <stefandxm> today for instance ejabberd has a max stanza size but its impractical to have it statically defined
[13:53:33] <stefandxm> having it defined on say namespace level and client would be a solution
[13:53:45] <stefandxm> or namespace, entity (jid) and namespace
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[13:56:50] <dwd> jonasw, That's weird. I was talking about the existence of this algorithm about an hour and a half before you submitted that.
[13:57:31] <Ge0rG> the coloring algorithm?
[13:57:42] <Ge0rG> It was discussed in here several times over the last months
[13:57:47] <dwd> Yes, I know.
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[13:58:36] <dwd> I was demonstrating the difference between Gajim and another XMPP client, and Gajim colourizes - I mentioned there was this algorithm knocking about as well.
[13:58:38] <Ge0rG> I hope that the proto-XEP will ignite discussion. Hope dies last.
[13:59:15] <Ge0rG> I think that jonasw is aiming at a Ph.D. in sensible XMPP client design.
[14:00:00] <stefandxm> iam missing the [] Compensate for f.lux on the site
[14:00:43] <jonasw> stefandxm, compensating for flux/redshift is definitely out of scope ;-)
[14:00:49] <jonasw> (a) that’s time dependent and (b) tricky
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[14:01:16] <Ge0rG> I think that f.lux compensation should be done display-wide, not in an XMPP client.
[14:01:21] <jonasw> dwd, ha, so I can count on your +1 ;)
[14:01:36] <Ge0rG> Unless there is an XMPP client that can go back into 1955.
[14:02:01] <stefandxm> am i the only one finding it confusing to talk about IM UIs as "xmpp clients"? :)
[14:02:20] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: those are different things!
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[14:02:34] <Ge0rG> Jabber client is the right term, of course.
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[14:03:05] <stefandxm> i remember the discussion from the summit this spring. i still find it confusing to have a protocol organ for a message bus discussing/voting on UI matters
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[14:03:33] <jonasw> re-instate the JSF to discuss IM-specific matters for maximum confusion!!!k
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[14:04:09] <stefandxm> and i cannot see how the expertise can be shared between systems protocols and ui design
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[14:04:25] <stefandxm> so far ivent met a single proffesional ui designer than can do system protocols and vice versa
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[14:07:22] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: which is a very pointed explanations of why all Jabber clients suck.
[14:07:45] <stefandxm> i think the clients can be good but not all uis
[14:08:01] <stefandxm> adium has a great ui but sucky xmpp client
[14:08:02] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: I'm not a professional UI designer, but I know a little bit about UX and I am pondering about jabber client design a great deal of time
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[14:08:39] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "Jabber Software Alliance" or "Business Jabber Alliance" or some such.
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[14:08:42] <stefandxm> swift im has a horrid ui but a great xmpp client
[14:08:57] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: now you made me curious, what's wrong with swift?
[14:09:11] <stefandxm> it only supports one account and its ugly :)
[14:09:23] <Zash> Incorrect and subjective.
[14:09:31] <stefandxm> incorrect in what way?
[14:09:37] <Zash> It supports multiple accounts
[14:09:46] <stefandxm> oh?
[14:09:47] <Zash> Hidden away tho
[14:09:50] <stefandxm> how?
[14:09:56] <stefandxm> haha speaking of uis
[14:09:59] <Zash> Command line flag iirc
[14:10:22] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: I think that "ugly" is highly subjective and only a very small influence on the UX
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[14:10:25] <stefandxm> it doesnt have a "help" either
[14:10:28] <jonasw> I’m confident that JabberCat will be awesome ;-)
[14:10:40] <stefandxm> georg, an ui that doesnt follow the native look will always be ugly in my book
[14:10:46] <jonasw> +1 stefandxm
[14:10:58] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: web is the new native.
[14:11:00] <Zash> stefandxm: no --help ? whats this then https://q.zash.se/f445feffd14b.txt
[14:11:09] <stefandxm> zash was talking about the ui
[14:11:12] <jonasw> Ge0rG, noooo
[14:11:36] <Zash> stefandxm: I think the goal is to be simple enough to not need a built in help
[14:11:36] <Ge0rG> my point is: the look of widgets is secondary to proper usability.
[14:11:40] <stefandxm> Number of accounts to open windows for (unsupported)
[14:11:42] <stefandxm> multiple windows?
[14:11:47] <stefandxm> not a shared contact list?
[14:11:57] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the look yes, but the feel not
[14:12:14] <Ge0rG> jonasw: true.
[14:13:00] <Ge0rG> But I'd rather have a Qt-based client on windows that doesn't drop messages than a native one that can't fulfil basic IM expectations
[14:13:10] <jonasw> Qt is close to native on any platform
[14:13:15] <jonasw> closer than any web client at least
[14:13:32] <Zash> jonasw: Always close, but always feeling slightly off
[14:13:42] <jonasw> Zash, but over the uncanny valley, I thnik
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[14:14:10] <Zash> As someone who grew up with GTK+, all Qt apps look off to me
[14:14:40] <stefandxm> on linux iam ok with Qt looking app. on osx its horrid
[14:14:56] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: I also think that multi-account support is a power user feature only needed by 1% of Zimpies.
[14:15:11] <stefandxm> georg, i dont think tahts true :)
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[14:15:22] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: but having support for multiple accounts makes the UI much more complex
[14:15:29] <moparisthebest> if you really need it you can always use a xmpp->xmpp transport right? :)
[14:15:30] <stefandxm> i dont know anyone that has only one im account
[14:15:38] <jonasw> Ge0rG, multi-account is tricky, but I think I found a reasonable UX solution for jabbercat
[14:15:46] <stefandxm> Ge0rG, sure. but adium does it neatly
[14:15:50] <jonasw> stefandxm, I know a lot, all my non-nerd friends
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[14:16:05] <stefandxm> jonasw, they dont have google etc?
[14:16:17] <SouL> What? I feel I'm a normie now, with just one XMPP account.
[14:16:26] <jonasw> stefandxm, google doesn’t have any usable XMPP anymore
[14:16:40] <stefandxm> i run google hangout, work jid, private jid and icq through one im client
[14:16:45] <stefandxm> jonasw, yes they do
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[14:17:28] <SouL> All my gmail contacts appear as offline
[14:17:34] <stefandxm> not mine
[14:17:46] <stefandxm> i use it daily
[14:18:15] <SouL> How? Is still usable on the gmail page?
[14:18:15] <Ge0rG> SouL: gmail f***ed xmpp.
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[14:18:29] <stefandxm> SouL, yes and with hangout app (included in android)
[14:18:34] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: you are the power user.
[14:18:43] <SouL> Whaat? That's new to me.
[14:18:52] <stefandxm> its been like this since ever
[14:19:02] <SouL> Your contacts had to do something, or what, stefandxm?
[14:19:03] <stefandxm> they never removed xmpp support
[14:19:07] <jonasw> SouL, don’t let yourself be fooled, gmail federation is broken-ish
[14:19:10] <stefandxm> SouL, no
[14:19:20] <stefandxm> federation is not working no
[14:19:25] <Ge0rG> I need a gmail-xmpp using volunteer please, for testing https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/issues/201
[14:19:29] <stefandxm> but its still xmpp and works great for chatting
[14:19:34] <Zash> I may have a multilple accounts, but I only use one, the rest are for testing and stuff.
[14:19:52] <Zash> Most of my friends only have one too.
[14:20:08] <SouL> Ah man, there's no federation... Then there's nothing new :)
[14:20:14] <stefandxm> Ge0rG, you may add me if you want. stefan@skogome.net
[14:20:22] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: is that gmail-hosted?
[14:20:25] <stefandxm> yes
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[14:20:49] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: thanks, give me a minute to boot my other android.
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[14:20:59] <stefandxm> but you need to be friends
[14:21:15] <stefandxm> so its traditional xmpp
[14:21:37] <Ge0rG> stefandxm: I don't have a mac unfortunately, so I can't check adium.
[14:21:49] <stefandxm> pidgin also works
[14:21:56] <stefandxm> i run pidgin on linux for same reasons as i run adium on mac
[14:22:05] <Ge0rG> but pidgin!
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[14:22:27] <stefandxm> pidgin is great ui. but sucky xmpp client =)
[14:22:41] <Ge0rG> all xmpp clients suck. Especially the Jabber ones.
[14:22:58] <Zash> Which one(s) suck less?
[14:23:05] <Ge0rG> mutt. Oh, wait.
[14:23:10] <stefandxm> i havent been able to start swift im on linux
[14:23:14] <stefandxm> dependency hell
[14:23:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, mutt with that french xmpp<->imap gateway?
[14:23:24] <stefandxm> (and it didnt compile)
[14:23:29] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't even want to imagine _that_.
[14:23:34] <jonasw> :D
[14:23:39] <jonasw> Ge0rG, heard of deltachat?
[14:23:49] <jonasw> .oO(deltachat in front of imap<->xmpp gateway :-O)
[14:23:54] <Holger> stefandxm: https://github.com/swift/swift/blob/master/BuildTools/InstallSwiftDependencies.sh
[14:23:55] <Zash> IMAP is pretty cool, why else would they be trying to kill and replace it with some JSON garbage?
[14:23:56] <Holger> ... works for me.
[14:23:56] <jonasw> for extra fun
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[14:24:45] <stefandxm> Holger, i dont use any of those distros
[14:24:52] <stefandxm> so would give Unsupported system if i tried
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[14:25:24] <stefandxm> or wait, it had a || there
[14:25:25] <jonasw> I always find it odd when people who use interesting exotic distributions complain about difficulties building and installing software :)
[14:25:28] <stefandxm> it might work now then
[14:25:31] <stefandxm> but last time it didnt
[14:25:50] <stefandxm> jonasw, why?
[14:25:59] <moparisthebest> wait there is an imap/xmpp gateway?
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[14:26:28] <stefandxm> jonasw, i think the more you know about linux the more problem you will have with dependencies
[14:26:46] <Zash> I must know nothing then.
[14:27:46] <moparisthebest> stefandxm, just curious, which distro?
[14:28:00] <stefandxm> linux mint kde on this one
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[14:28:26] <stefandxm> quite horrible tbh
[14:28:50] <moparisthebest> that's just ubuntu with some extra repos pretty sure?
[14:28:50] <stefandxm> but i gave up on debian experimental after the third broken upgrade in a year >D
[14:29:10] <stefandxm> moparisthebest, true and not true
[14:29:20] <moparisthebest> oh, actualy, Holger 's script has a LinuxMint entry, same as Ubuntu
[14:29:24] <stefandxm> i know
[14:29:29] <stefandxm> i commentented on it above :)
[14:29:36] <stefandxm> but linux mint versions are not interchangeable
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[14:30:01] <stefandxm> same as with debian of course
[14:30:03] <Zash> Isn't the purpose of Debian experimental to be horribly broken?
[14:30:11] <tux> +1
[14:30:14] <stefandxm> sure is
[14:30:19] <stefandxm> but only way to get updated packages
[14:30:29] *tux has relatively good experience with debian unstable, if you know what you are doing
[14:30:30] <moparisthebest> yea, I used Kubuntu for about 10 years but 16.04 broke everything so bad I switched to Arch and have been rather happy with that for a year
[14:30:47] <moparisthebest> breaks less than debian unstable from what I gather, but still newest everything
[14:30:58] <stefandxm> tux, me too.. for a long while =)
[14:31:11] <Ge0rG> there are three flavors of debian: rusty, stale and broken.
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[14:32:06] <SouL> Did you consider KDE Neon, moparisthebest?
[14:32:39] <tux> by the way: I just verified that a current PSI+ can be built with Debian Stable. I'll do a backport pacakge in the near future.
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[14:34:22] <jonasw> tux, you’re a debian developer?
[14:34:30] <moparisthebest> SouL, ah KDE neon, I tried it and it was still a bit too broken, and that was before they discovered they didn't enable PGP package signing and also left their package repo open for anyone to upload files to... :)
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[14:35:20] <moparisthebest> SouL, that would be https://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20161114-1.txt
[14:35:58] <tux> jonasw: nope, never really got around to do that, but I know how to build debian packages
[14:37:36] <SouL> moparisthebest, I downloaded it two months ago and it is what I'm using, since I was using Kubuntu too, before.
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[14:38:51] <moparisthebest> did they start signing packages with PGP yet?
[14:39:00] <moparisthebest> otherwise I'd stay far away just for security reasons
[14:39:17] <moparisthebest> glad it works well now though, I tried around July 2016
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[14:48:44] <Ge0rG> Gmail is weird. it reflects my own presence to me.
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[14:52:45] <Holger> Isn't that standard behavior?
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[14:55:02] <Ge0rG> Holger: I mean the presence of my own full JID, not of my other sessions
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[15:01:56] <Holger> Ge0rG: "The user's server MUST also send the presence stanza to all of the user's available resources (including the resource that generated the presence notification in the first place)."
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[15:02:05] <Holger> Or am I missing something?
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[15:02:53] <Ge0rG> Holger: whoops. Then it's just the first time I notice this. Thanks for clarifying
[15:03:30] <nyco> hey SCAM team members, we have a booth at the POSS, Paris Open Source Summit
[15:03:50] <nyco> http://www.opensourcesummit.paris/
[15:04:07] <nyco> the stand will be on V29
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[15:04:54] <nyco> Guus, Daniel...
[15:05:27] <nyco> europeans, join!
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[15:19:39] <tux> Interesting, this afternoon I thought about how nowadays one must also take the hash colour into account when creating a nick name, then I thought about how to ensure that every colouring scheme is identical and now there is this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/colors.html
[15:20:02] <tux> Though I have mixed feelings about the color inversion - maybe have to try this out on a demonstrator.
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[15:22:29] <tux> Or maybe the luminosity (Y) should be adapted instead.
[15:22:48] <tux> Is it customary to reply to the XMPP extension proposals?
[15:23:38] <jonasw> tux, sure, feel free
[15:24:07] <jonasw> adapting luminosity would be more a heuristic, mixing with the inverse does work, I have sapmles
[15:24:18] <tux> ack
[15:24:21] <jonasw> (esp. adapting Y doesn’t work for coloured backgrounds)
[15:24:50] <tux> I just felt more natural to do these conversions in the YCbCr colour space
[15:25:12] <jonasw> that’s quite tricky I’m afraid
[15:25:16] <jonasw> because YCbCr is not additive
[15:25:25] <jonasw> RGB is, which is why the inversion-and-mixing thing works
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[15:25:33] <tux> true
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[15:27:04] <tux> jonasw: in 5.4 the formulas don't give values for KR and KB
[15:27:11] <jonasw> tux,
no mixing: https://sotecware.net/files/persistent/colors-xep/unmixed-bg.svg
mixing: https://sotecware.net/files/persistent/colors-xep/mixed-bg.svg
[15:27:41] <stefandxm> i am curious when this is wanted at all?
[15:27:53] <stefandxm> does people want nick name colorization in chats?
[15:28:00] <jonasw> stefandxm, yes, they do
[15:28:02] *tux uses that feature
[15:28:03] <jonasw> and also for avatars its great
[15:28:30] <Zash> Are there any algorithms for identifying words with similar 'shape'?
[15:28:33] <stefandxm> wont it just be a huge christmas tree?
[15:28:48] <tux> jonasw: I see, thanks for the sample :)
[15:28:50] <stefandxm> i remember i tried it on irc back in the days and it was dreadful
[15:29:00] <jonasw> Zash, I doubt it
[15:29:13] <jonasw> stefandxm, the xep also specifies that there MUST be a switch to turn it off, so...
[15:29:15] <moparisthebest> stefandxm, well persistence and standardization would help, all my clients color nicks, but differently across clients and even in the same chat, sometimes
[15:29:23] <jonasw> tux, you can mention the missing constants on-list
[15:29:26] <tux> stefandxm: Setting a good luminosity is key.
[15:29:28] <jonasw> they’re easy to find anywhere on the internet though
[15:29:29] <tux> jonasw: ack
[15:29:51] <Zash> stefandxm: looks fine to me: https://www.zash.se/upload/28QwkNpsRR5s.png
[15:30:04] <stefandxm> thats horrible to me :)
[15:30:12] <tux> maybe, but in a "we want to ensure everybody does the same thing" specification they should be mentioned.
[15:30:24] <stefandxm> because when you apply highlights and notifications they get drowned our have to be even more shouty (as in your example)
[15:30:26] <moparisthebest> so yesterday, to avoid highlighting them needlessly I'll change the name, gajim set both Buus and Be0rG to the same color and on glance I was confusing them
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[15:36:12] <jonasw> moparisthebest, with XEP-XXXX, you can at least be sure that it will always happen, if it happens ;)
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[15:37:03] <jonasw> doesn’t happen though, they have very different xorred crc32 values
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[15:43:56] <moparisthebest> jonasw, that might be interesting, have sample color lists for say, this muc?
[15:44:20] <moparisthebest> or maybe #archlinux on freenode, some concrete real-life examples
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[15:51:17] <jonasw> moparisthebest, can do
[15:51:24] <jonasw> may do soon
[15:51:40] <jonasw> I have it implemented for avatar surrogates in my client, but I obviously can’t easily show you a screenshot of my roster ...
[15:52:22] <Ge0rG> We really need some easy-to-setup test account with fake roster entries and fake presence.
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[15:52:46] <tux> The discussion on whether there should be nick coloring is not really relevant, though. The thing is happening and the best reaction is IMHO to give it a good direction early on. (As with the proposed XEP.)
[15:52:48] <moparisthebest> also I'm a little colorblind so I hesitate to comment on actual colors, but I'll be able to tell if they look different enough for me, and others can look as well
[15:53:09] <tux> The decision is only if there should be a common scheme or if things just go wild.
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[15:53:24] <moparisthebest> well, things are going wild right now
[15:53:27] <jonasw> moparisthebest, uuuuh
[15:53:31] <moparisthebest> this optionally adds a common scheme :)
[15:53:36] <jonasw> if you’d be willing to see how the color blind profiles work, let me know
[15:54:03] <jonasw> if you’d be willing to see how well the color blind profiles work, let me know
[15:54:16] <jonasw> until now I only have one sample (with a red/green blind person)
[15:54:27] <moparisthebest> sure jonasw , I'm not sure what I have is exactly called, but I see like, certain browns as army green, not positive
[15:55:02] <jonasw> that could be a light red/green defiency
[15:55:10] <jonasw> we should talk later, I’ll be off for half an our or something
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[15:55:37] <moparisthebest> yep, I looked up the exact word one day but have forgotten :)
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[16:57:01] <jonasw> back
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[17:20:43] <jonasw> moparisthebest, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/users.svg
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[17:24:32] <jonasw> moparisthebest, refreshed with three color columns, which are: plain, red/green-blindness corrected, blue-blindness corrected
[17:25:34] <pep.> I'm blue/purple-ish!
[17:27:16] <pep.> jonasw, how many colors is this?
[17:27:45] <mimi89999> jonasw: I don't get that thing...
[17:29:18] <pep.> jonasw, why do you care for color-blindness? It's just to quickly identify people right? you don't care if color-blind people don't see the same color as others?
[17:29:30] <pep.> It's not like people were going to compare colors
[17:29:42] <pep.> Or am I missing something?
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[17:31:49] <intosi> Colour rotating nickname sets, that will be a thing.
[17:32:01] <mimi89999> intosi: 👍
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[17:39:11] <jonasw> pep., the issue is that the deficiencies affect different ranges of the color space differently, so we can do better by avoiding those ranges
[17:39:34] <jonasw> pep., I don’t understand the question "how many colors"
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[17:39:44] <jonasw> it’s as many colors as there are names
[17:39:56] <jonasw> up to 2^16 (due to folding crc32 into an unsigned 16 bit integer)
[17:40:07] <pep.> ok
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[17:48:23] <jonasw> mimi89999, what’s your question?
[17:48:43] <mimi89999> jonasw: What is that svg about?
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[17:50:46] <jonasw> mimi89999, it shows the colors the ProtoXEP which was announced on standards@ generates for the nicknames in this room
[17:51:01] <jonasw> in three variants, from left to right: "normal", "corrected for red/green-deficiency", "corrected for blue-deficiency"
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[18:12:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I agree. I already thought about how to set that up. maybe some prosody docker image with pre-configured accounts
[18:12:40] <jonasw> I have a testbed, but it’s rather small, not large enough to effectively test the coloring things
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[18:14:58] <tux> How about scraping sth like Twitter for a nickname set?
[18:16:54] <SouL> Aren't there libraries like faker for python? For stuff like that
[18:16:57] <moparisthebest> jonasw, thanks so, those columns, and again, I don't know if I'm seeing what you are seeing
[18:17:13] <jonasw> SouL, you still need to set up accounts etc.
[18:17:14] <moparisthebest> the middle column, is mostly pink/orange
[18:17:16] <jonasw> and add clients
[18:17:41] <moparisthebest> jonasw, you, kev, la|r|ma have *identical* orange colors, in the middle column
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[18:17:53] <moparisthebest> is that what you see or no
[18:17:58] <jonasw> yes, that’s in all columns the case
[18:18:09] <moparisthebest> oh, right
[18:18:16] <jonasw> doesn’t matter that much really
[18:18:17] <moparisthebest> the middle seems the worst to me though, almost everyone is pink
[18:18:36] <jonasw> moparisthebest, interesting, and possibly bad
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[18:18:50] <moparisthebest> is that what you see or not? :)
[18:18:57] <jonasw> yes-ish
[18:18:59] <jonasw> there are some oranges in there
[18:19:08] <moparisthebest> it's subtely different shades of pink, but, mostly pink
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[18:20:03] <jonasw> moparisthebest, reload
[18:21:33] <moparisthebest> maybe better, I was going to say all shades of green, but that's mostly at top
[18:21:49] <moparisthebest> no actually I think that is far better
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[18:22:03] <jonasw> I think too
[18:22:05] <moparisthebest> again just for my eyes might be worse for everyone else who knows
[18:22:10] <jonasw> no, I think that makes sense
[18:22:20] <jonasw> in case of doubt is green easier on the eyes compared to pink
[18:22:39] <jonasw> simply because one is evolutionary more used to green tones and we can distinguish more shades of green
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[18:23:29] <moparisthebest> above my head, seems to make sense though
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[18:23:55] <moparisthebest> out of those 3 profiles I prefer middle for sure, I preferred left before
[18:24:19] <jonasw> moparisthebest, prefer it visually, or from being able to distinguish colors?
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[18:24:32] <moparisthebest> seems more distinguishable yes
[18:24:44] <jonasw> moparisthebest, great :-)
[18:24:51] <jonasw> \o/
[18:24:57] <moparisthebest> the left has a bunch of 2 or 3 in a row of almost identical shades
[18:25:03] <jonasw> can you reload once more?
[18:25:41] <moparisthebest> more blue-ish than green-ish ?
[18:25:55] <jonasw> maybe, not sure
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[18:26:35] <jonasw> anyways, thanks for your input
[18:26:50] <moparisthebest> Bunneh, and next two, I hate highlighting random people
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[18:26:57] <moparisthebest> the green sticks out more there, to me
[18:27:09] <jonasw> more than the shades on the left?
[18:27:51] <moparisthebest> no not in that case
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[18:28:28] <moparisthebest> it does seem to have groups of the same color in a row, like groups of 2 and sometimes 3
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[18:28:40] <moparisthebest> for alphabetical names that's bad, not sure if there is a solution though
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[18:30:55] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I thnik that may be a property of CRC32 :/
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[18:36:51] <moparisthebest> jonasw, what if you used something else, md5, Adler-32, Fletcher-32 ?
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[18:38:52] <jonasw> adler32 is worse on those short inputs
[18:38:54] <jonasw> (tried it)
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[18:43:21] <jonasw>
18:43:19 jonasw> crytographic hash functinos are generally a bit better
18:44:36 jonasw> but people complain that those are hard to implement / have high overhead
18:44:50 jonasw> and even in those cases there are still close nicknames which aren’t ideal
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[18:51:59] <jonasw> ahh, salting the CRC32 with 256 bits does something good
[18:52:18] <jonasw> moparisthebest, care to reload?
[18:52:52] <moparisthebest> I'm not sure md5 is hard or has high overhead :/
[18:52:56] <moparisthebest> yea hang on
[18:53:34] <moparisthebest> I think that's worse, look at tu-x and next 3
[18:53:56] <moparisthebest> next 2 I mean, also it still has the every few being the same
[18:55:02] <Zash> That graph says otherwise ;)
[18:56:21] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I don’t think that’s a bad thing in that special case. they differ by their first letter, so your brain generally can distinguish them well
[18:56:52] <jonasw> moparisthebest, re performance: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/9n701UwrIuU2NFuTexy7rFpu3Auf7zbQlVsEyFTVqAM.png
[18:57:07] <jonasw> so md5/sha1 are an order of magnitude slower than CRC32 on those input sizes
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[18:57:45] <moparisthebest> are we talking about the difference in 0.01s and 0.02s for all participants in a typically sized muc ?
[18:57:51] <moparisthebest> because, who cares
[18:58:18] <jonasw> moparisthebest, first, implementations may not always be able to cache the colors (daniel brought that up)
[18:58:21] <moparisthebest> I think it might even be less than that?
[18:59:03] <jonasw> it’s a factor of three in that region
[18:59:27] <jonasw> lowering slowly to 2.5 at the right edge of the reasonable range for nicknames and such
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[18:59:48] <moparisthebest> 3 times slower than a millionth of a second?
[19:00:16] <Guus> Link Mauve, you here?
[19:00:31] <daniel> Well maybe we should try md5. If it looks better we might want to live with it
[19:01:05] <jonasw> daniel, it does, but salting CRC32 with 64 bytes does the trick
[19:01:08] <jonasw> and is still fast
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[19:02:03] <moparisthebest> unless I'm reading the graph wrong, 3/1,000,000s is technically 3x slower than 1/1,000,000s, but still well within the no one cares range
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[19:04:39] <jonasw> moparisthebest, reload for md5-based colors
[19:05:02] <jonasw> I don’t think it does a lot of good
[19:06:21] <moparisthebest> hmm disappointing I agree it's basically the same issue
[19:06:41] <moparisthebest> sha1 doesn't do better either?
[19:07:01] <moparisthebest> is it not fixable based on low bytecount or can we just throw algorithms at it until one sticks :)
[19:07:46] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I think it’s not fixable due to the low amount of colours we can distinguish
[19:09:14] <jonasw> but indeed, we need to specify a salt input for CRC32, that improves things massively
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[22:19:28] <tux> jonasw: is there a reason you're using crc instead of sha?
[22:20:14] <tux> Ah, nvw. Just read your answer to the question.
[22:20:38] <tux> Though I think that the processing time is not relevant here.
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[22:37:22] <moparisthebest> tux: I don't think processing speed matters either here but md5 also wasn't any better so :(
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[23:00:15] <Link Mauve> Guus, now I am.
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