Friday, September 15, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
September
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
 
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:01:19] *** pep. shows as "online"
[00:01:50] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:02:58] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:07:23] *** lskdjf has left the room
[00:07:27] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[00:10:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:20:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[00:22:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:22:42] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:24:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[00:24:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[00:29:52] *** ralphm has joined the room
[00:33:31] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[00:38:31] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:38:55] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:44:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[00:44:08] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[00:44:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[00:44:43] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[00:53:37] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[00:55:59] *** Guus has left the room
[01:01:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:09:36] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:09:50] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[01:17:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[01:17:15] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[01:19:39] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[01:41:14] *** Zash has left the room
[02:02:24] *** isotelo has joined the room
[02:08:06] *** isotelo has left the room
[02:17:14] *** isotelo has joined the room
[02:17:43] *** isotelo has left the room
[02:31:15] *** jere has left the room
[02:31:21] *** jere has joined the room
[02:44:55] *** Zash shows as "online"
[03:03:34] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[03:07:25] *** isotelo has joined the room
[03:07:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[03:09:33] *** isotelo has left the room
[03:16:43] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:17:32] *** uc shows as "online"
[03:18:28] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:25:39] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[03:25:54] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[03:28:50] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:29:18] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[03:29:56] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:30:36] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:35:48] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:36:27] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:41:43] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:42:23] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:42:53] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[03:47:46] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:48:17] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[03:48:22] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:53:16] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:53:54] *** andrey.g has left the room
[03:53:59] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[03:58:55] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[03:59:30] *** andrey.g has left the room
[04:04:20] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[04:04:55] *** andrey.g has left the room
[04:05:25] *** jere has left the room
[04:05:30] *** jere has joined the room
[04:09:36] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[04:10:13] *** andrey.g has left the room
[04:15:00] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[04:15:35] *** andrey.g has left the room
[04:16:02] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[04:17:54] *** Wiktor has left the room
[04:17:56] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[04:20:17] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:20:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:22:37] *** jere has left the room
[04:22:44] *** jere has joined the room
[04:27:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:27:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:28:08] *** Valerian has joined the room
[04:28:40] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[04:28:40] *** uc has left the room
[04:28:40] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[04:28:40] *** uc has left the room
[04:31:05] *** jere has left the room
[04:31:12] *** jere has joined the room
[04:41:52] <Guus> Link Mauve: to late 😉
[04:42:52] *** Guus has left the room
[04:45:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:47:47] *** Guus has left the room
[04:47:55] *** waqas has left the room
[04:50:18] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:51:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:52:32] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:00:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:02:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:08:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:08:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:09:19] *** jonasw has left the room
[05:09:19] *** jonasw has joined the room
[05:10:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:12:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:14:52] *** uc has joined the room
[05:15:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:19:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:20:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:21:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:26:09] *** jere has left the room
[05:29:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:29:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:32:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:34:30] *** ralphm has joined the room
[05:37:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:38:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:39:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:40:52] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:41:50] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:46:41] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[05:46:42] *** Guus has left the room
[05:48:10] *** jubalh has joined the room
[05:48:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:56:26] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:01:33] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[06:06:25] *** Valerian has left the room
[06:07:13] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[06:08:24] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:10:29] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[06:18:15] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[06:19:06] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:19:21] *** Valerian has joined the room
[06:25:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:26:15] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[06:27:58] *** Guus has left the room
[06:28:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:28:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[06:28:59] *** jubalh has left the room
[06:29:06] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[06:31:04] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[06:36:08] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[06:41:32] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[06:44:05] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[06:45:42] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:46:21] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[06:46:43] *** Valerian has left the room
[06:47:17] *** fp-tester has left the room
[06:47:29] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[06:54:36] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[06:56:21] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:56:58] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:58:35] <Guus> who can set me up with access to the XMPP Twitter account?
[06:58:44] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:00:23] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:00:24] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:01:53] *** intosi has joined the room
[07:05:15] *** intosi has left the room
[07:05:28] *** intosi has joined the room
[07:05:39] *** ralphm has left the room
[07:08:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:09:23] *** Valerian has joined the room
[07:11:53] *** emxp has joined the room
[07:14:45] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:16:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:17:16] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:18:38] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:19:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:26:06] *** Valerian has left the room
[07:26:44] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:26:45] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:27:17] *** Valerian has joined the room
[07:27:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:27:59] *** Flow has joined the room
[07:28:04] *** ralphm has left the room
[07:28:07] *** Flow shows as "online"
[07:32:49] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[07:33:15] *** daniel has left the room
[07:33:23] *** daniel has joined the room
[07:33:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:34:57] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[07:35:04] *** tux has left the room
[07:35:23] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[07:36:21] <tux> moparisthebest: I wondered because when I looked up nick hash coloring recently I saw that SHA1 was used to calculate the hash.
[07:36:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[07:40:11] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:40:43] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:43:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:44:33] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:44:36] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:44:38] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:47:02] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:51:21] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:52:30] *** Valerian has left the room
[07:52:39] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[07:54:24] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:54:58] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:55:02] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:56:25] <jonasw> tux: sha was my first choice indeed, but it doesn't really matter
[07:56:57] <tux> are there other implementations which use crc?
[07:57:50] <jonasw> tux: I haven't checked
[07:57:54] <dwd> jonasw, I wondered about CRC32. It feels like it's more prone to accidental collisions. Adler32 is less so, and faster. And MD5 even less so and fast enough these days.
[07:58:22] <jonasw> dwd: Adler doesn't work at all in those input sizes
[07:59:18] <tux> If we could come up with a hint that one of the algorithms is most common for nick hashing I'd vote for that most common algorithm.
[08:03:09] *** Flow shows as "online"
[08:04:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:06:14] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:08:53] *** stefandxm has left the room
[08:08:56] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[08:08:57] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[08:09:06] *** ralphm has joined the room
[08:10:46] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:11:10] <jonasw> dwd, it doesn’t matter a lot (except that Adler32 needs much more input to be effective) since we fold the output to 16 bits anyways
[08:12:19] <jonasw> tux, interesting idea; however, my intention was to go with something which is easily available on all platforms and implementations; the zlib crc32 should be such a thing
[08:12:24] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:12:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:12:26] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[08:12:33] <jonasw> with MD5, we had the concern that it might vanish from crypto libraries at some point
[08:13:54] <tux> For C/C++ that's true. I'm not so sure about other languages.
[08:14:23] <tux> IMHO it would be sensible to have a scheme that is viable to as many (modern) programming languages as possible. We want people to use this.
[08:14:26] <jonasw> most languages have some kind of zlib support, because the zlib is everywhree
[08:14:34] <jonasw> I agree
[08:15:28] <jonasw> I can check how well Adler16 performs. we might be able to seed it properly so that it randomizes, but I’m not too confident in that. the adler concept is a bit weak on the mixing side
[08:15:44] <dwd> jonasw, I think CRC32 predates zlib, actually.
[08:15:48] <jonasw> dwd, sure
[08:15:54] <tux> The fine thing about CRC ist that it is easy to implement
[08:15:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:16:00] <jonasw> is it? I never managed to :)
[08:16:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:16:27] <dwd> Huh. CRC is 1961, CRC32 is 1975.
[08:16:31] <jonasw> dwd, I’m referring to zlib crc32 because of the specific zlib polynomial used
[08:16:42] <tux> At least I did some working implementations. ;)
[08:17:11] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[08:21:56] *** Martin has joined the room
[08:22:44] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[08:23:00] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[08:23:06] <jonasw> tux, in my defense, the platform I tried it on was VHDL ... soo ... ;-)
but given that there exist libre implementation of the zlib CRC32, it would be easy to port to any language, if there are really any which don’t have access to a CRC32 implementation with that polynomial
[08:23:51] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:24:29] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:24:36] <tux> jonasw: yes, it is. Maybe it makes sense to link to a normative description for CRC32. I'll have a look during the weekend.
[08:24:44] <edhelas> do you guys know XMPP clients that are doing Jingle with WebRTC ?
[08:24:45] <jonasw> yes, I hadn’t found one
[08:24:50] <jonasw> edhelas, jitsi maybe?
[08:25:15] <jonasw> tux, if you could find a nice normative reference for the zlib CRC32 or CRC32 in general and the zlib polynomial, that would be of great help
[08:25:26] <dwd> jonasw, No, Jitsi-the-desktop-client doesn't interop with JitsiMeet.
[08:25:33] <jonasw> dwd, aw, pity
[08:25:45] <jonasw> put them on a stake and burn them with flames
[08:25:47] <jonasw> :)
[08:26:00] <dwd> edhelas, The only ones I know of are bespoke Web ones.
[08:26:07] <jonasw> (just kidding)
[08:26:27] <edhelas> dwd, that's what I thought
[08:26:29] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[08:26:30] <intosi> The benefit of MD5, is that every XMPP implementation already knows how to do that.
[08:26:38] <dwd> jonasw, "Classic" Jingle VOIP doesn't interop with WebRTC Jingle VOIP.
[08:26:41] <edhelas> so we don't have any client, except Movim, that implement Jingle using WebRTC
[08:26:46] <jonasw> intosi, isn’t it a MUST NOT by now? :)
[08:26:55] <dwd> intosi, True. Also there are loads of implementations everywhere.
[08:26:56] <intosi> jonasw: sure, but legacy.
[08:27:04] <jonasw> intosi, will legacy implement new things?
[08:27:07] <dwd> jonasw, In security cases.
[08:27:29] <intosi> Fine, then propose SHA-1, which is definitely required, for things like CAPS.
[08:27:32] <jonasw> and I’m sure those implementations depend on lib*ssl for those; will lib$whateverssl support MD5 in the future?
[08:27:47] <jonasw> (SHA1 will probably work better, indeed)
[08:27:53] <jonasw> (support-wise)
[08:28:07] <dwd> jonasw, There's a number of issues with MD5, but the worst one now is speed. MD5 is so fast that brute-forcing is practical. At the same time, and increasing number of people are using it in this kind of thing because of that.
[08:28:23] <jonasw> dwd, fun fact: sha1 is faster than md5
[08:28:41] <Tobias> fun fact: BLAKE2 is faster than SHA1 :)
[08:28:51] <jonasw> dwd, https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/9n701UwrIuU2NFuTexy7rFpu3Auf7zbQlVsEyFTVqAM.png
[08:28:56] <intosi> If speed of nickname colour hashing is going to be your issue, I wonder how your client is to keep up in such a room with all the messages ;)
[08:29:12] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:29:18] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:29:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:29:24] <jonasw> intosi, frankly, *I* do not care much about it; my client will cache the colors anyways.
[08:29:35] <jonasw> but I heard that it’s not that trivial for other implementations.
[08:29:37] <dwd> jonasw, I thought it was only faster where the silicon supports it? But in any case, SHA-1 sounds good then.
[08:30:00] <jonasw> dwd, the difference seems to small for silicon support to be the reason in this graph, I think. so yeah, seems to be faster
[08:30:08] <jonasw> (not that it’d matter on our input sizes)
[08:30:10] <intosi> I like hashing methods that are already in use in code ;)
[08:30:45] <dwd> intosi, To be honest, I'd go for SHA-1 ver CRC32-with-some-polynomial just for the ease of specification.
[08:30:50] <intosi> Yeah
[08:30:57] <dwd> intosi, To be honest, I'd go for SHA-1 over CRC32-with-some-polynomial just for the ease of specification.
[08:31:13] <intosi> I tried to calculate my nick colour yesterday evening, and wasn't sure whether I was using the correct polynomial.
[08:31:26] <jonasw> I’m all in for that
[08:31:37] <intosi> As in some environments, folks just mention it's a crc32, and never bother telling you which one it actually is ;)
[08:31:39] <jonasw> the question is: shall I update the protoxep or update it when it goes experimental?
[08:31:43] <dwd> intosi, On this client, it is, rather fittingly, orange.
[08:31:50] <daniel> 👍for sha1
[08:31:51] <intosi> Orange is good.
[08:32:04] <dwd> intosi, You say that, but it's not working out well for the US.
[08:32:17] <intosi> dwd: yeah, but they're holding it wrong.
[08:32:21] <jonasw> lol
[08:32:28] <dwd> jonasw, Just wait.
[08:32:36] <jonasw> dwd, great, that fits my schedule better
[08:33:51] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:36:11] <tux> Yeah, we should provide a sample set for software testing. With hashing methods it's always kind of a guess whether the results are correct.
[08:36:28] <jonasw> tux, there are test vectors
[08:36:37] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:38:17] <tux> Ah, okay.
[08:40:09] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:40:35] *** Flow shows as "online"
[08:40:40] <tux> jonasw: hm.. You mean test vectors for CRC32 or for the Nick coloring?
[08:41:00] <jonasw> the latter
[08:41:06] *** jonasw has left the room
[08:41:34] <tux> Ack
[08:42:01] *** jubalh has joined the room
[08:45:43] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:46:09] *** Martin shows as "online"
[08:46:12] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[08:46:17] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[08:46:32] *** andrey.g has left the room
[08:47:36] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[08:47:52] *** Martin shows as "online"
[08:48:43] *** edhelas has left the room
[08:49:09] *** edhelas has joined the room
[08:49:21] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[08:49:30] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[08:49:38] *** andrey.g has left the room
[08:49:44] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:50:12] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[08:51:24] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[08:51:35] *** Vaulor has joined the room
[08:51:40] *** andrey.g has left the room
[08:54:53] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[08:55:09] *** andrey.g has left the room
[08:56:11] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[08:59:14] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[08:59:31] *** andrey.g has left the room
[09:00:57] *** aluisyo has left the room
[09:01:00] *** fp-tester has left the room
[09:01:08] *** edhelas has left the room
[09:01:08] *** nyco has left the room
[09:01:16] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[09:01:41] *** edhelas has joined the room
[09:02:20] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[09:02:37] *** andrey.g has left the room
[09:04:19] *** Alex has joined the room
[09:04:31] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:04:50] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:06:30] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[09:06:47] *** andrey.g has left the room
[09:06:53] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:09:16] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:10:17] <Link Mauve> edhelas, Jitsi Meet is a Jingle client, just like Movim.
[09:10:24] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:10:44] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:10:48] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:12:56] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:12:56] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:13:10] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:13:17] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:13:33] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:13:56] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:14:03] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:14:22] <jonasw> 'p
[09:15:13] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:15:24] *** lumi has joined the room
[09:17:04] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:17:05] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:17:35] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:17:38] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:18:01] *** Wiktor has left the room
[09:18:30] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[09:18:32] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:19:22] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[09:22:05] *** ralphm has joined the room
[09:22:21] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[09:22:25] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[09:23:29] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[09:26:53] *** stefandxm has left the room
[09:26:56] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[09:26:57] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[09:27:31] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:28:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:29:43] *** Flow shows as "online"
[09:29:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[09:31:52] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[09:33:39] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[09:35:12] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:36:47] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[09:38:45] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[09:39:25] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:39:26] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[09:39:42] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[09:41:04] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:41:38] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:42:43] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:43:26] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[09:43:39] *** edhelas has left the room
[09:43:52] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:43:56] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:44:09] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[09:46:43] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:47:04] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[09:49:03] *** edhelas has left the room
[09:49:54] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[09:50:05] <Guus> Link Mauve - do you think Jitsi Meet will do interop Jingle? I know that they recently added p2p support, but otherwise, everything typically flows through the videobridge. Jingle is involved there, but is it functional outside of their own solution?
[09:50:24] <Guus> It'd be great if they do though
[09:51:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:52:35] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[09:52:43] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:53:02] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:53:11] <edhelas> does the visioconference part of Jitsi do even pass by Jingle ?
[09:53:17] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:53:27] <edhelas> looks like their solution is not a full XMPP based solution
[09:53:51] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:55:04] <Holger> edhelas: The Videobridge is XEP-0340.
[09:55:55] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[09:59:39] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:01:53] *** stefandxm has left the room
[10:01:56] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[10:01:57] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[10:02:00] <edhelas> Holger, okay
[10:02:22] <Guus> oh, there's definately a lot of XMPP in there. I'm not sure if it's interoperable, though, with non-Jitsi clients
[10:02:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:03:15] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[10:04:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:10:53] *** stefandxm has left the room
[10:10:56] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[10:10:57] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[10:11:00] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:13:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:14:40] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:18:48] *** Wiktor has left the room
[10:18:53] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[10:19:44] <dwd> Guus, I believe that Talky uses it well enough.
[10:20:07] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:21:41] *** jabberatdemo has joined the room
[10:21:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:22:27] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[10:23:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:24:47] <jonasw> dwd,
[10:24:55] <jonasw> (sorry, wrong window and tab completion fubar)
[10:25:01] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:25:18] <Guus> (he's talking about you in another window, Dave)
[10:27:00] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[10:28:14] *** jabberatdemo has left the room
[10:30:07] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:30:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[10:30:11] *** sonny shows as "online"
[10:30:55] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:31:45] *** Flow shows as "online"
[10:32:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:36:47] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:37:46] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[10:41:05] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:42:08] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[10:43:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:44:03] *** Flow shows as "online"
[10:47:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:49:05] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:49:17] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[10:50:01] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[10:50:29] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[10:51:47] *** Flow shows as "online"
[10:53:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:53:47] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:54:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:54:08] *** Guus has left the room
[10:54:35] *** jere has joined the room
[10:56:16] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:56:54] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:57:43] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:58:06] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:00:26] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[11:02:37] *** Flow shows as "online"
[11:03:45] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[11:04:11] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[11:04:15] *** Alex shows as "online"
[11:05:29] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:07:36] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:07:47] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[11:08:35] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:09:00] *** Flow has left the room
[11:11:16] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:11:16] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:12:17] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[11:12:23] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:14:15] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[11:16:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:17:09] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:17:13] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:17:39] *** daniel has left the room
[11:17:48] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:20:20] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:20:58] *** Guus has left the room
[11:21:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:22:17] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:23:09] *** Alex shows as "online"
[11:23:12] *** Martin shows as "online"
[11:23:17] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:24:33] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[11:25:34] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[11:26:28] *** daniel has left the room
[11:27:56] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[11:28:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:29:01] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:29:59] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:32:17] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:34:03] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:34:03] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:35:09] <fippo> talky is now based on a bunch of deferred standards :-)
[11:36:40] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:37:15] *MattJ is currently in a call on Talky
[11:37:39] <MattJ> I might have to end it now I know this
[11:39:00] <SouL> Haha
[11:40:59] *** Guus has left the room
[11:43:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:43:58] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:43:58] *** Guus has left the room
[11:44:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:44:12] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:44:12] *** Alex has left the room
[11:46:40] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[11:47:37] *** daniel has left the room
[11:47:47] *** daniel has joined the room
[11:48:06] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:48:06] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:48:19] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:51:49] <fippo> mattj: there is also a proprietary namespace used. nothing critical at least :-p
[11:51:54] *** Guus has left the room
[11:51:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:52:15] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[11:52:59] *** matlag shows as "online"
[11:54:11] *** Flow has joined the room
[11:57:13] *** jubalh has joined the room
[11:57:51] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[11:59:04] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[11:59:05] *** Guus has left the room
[11:59:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:00:52] <moparisthebest> fippo: isn't everything based on deferred standards? :'(
[12:02:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:03:06] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:03:07] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:04:02] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[12:05:04] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:05:39] *** Guus has left the room
[12:05:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:09:07] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:11:19] *** Guus has left the room
[12:11:35] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[12:11:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:12:01] <moparisthebest> even the 2017 compliance suite specifies deferred standards, or at least ones that have been in last call for months and should be deferred
[12:12:44] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:14:29] <fippo> the internet runs on drafts
[12:14:32] *** jonasw has left the room
[12:16:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:16:59] <mimi89999> fippo: 👍
[12:18:07] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:18:07] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:19:20] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:19:24] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:20:02] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:20:06] *** Martin shows as "online"
[12:20:32] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:22:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:23:11] *** Flow has left the room
[12:24:27] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[12:24:28] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[12:26:08] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[12:29:10] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave"
[12:29:12] *** Guus has left the room
[12:29:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:29:19] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave"
[12:29:35] *** jere has joined the room
[12:30:32] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[12:32:33] *** stefandxm has left the room
[12:32:36] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[12:32:37] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[12:33:16] *** waqas has joined the room
[12:33:35] *** jere has left the room
[12:33:41] *** jere has joined the room
[12:33:57] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:33:58] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:36:11] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[12:36:12] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[12:37:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:37:52] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:42:54] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:48:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:49:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:49:14] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:49:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:51:02] *** daniel has left the room
[12:51:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:52:38] *** daniel has left the room
[12:52:54] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[12:54:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:56:02] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:58:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:59:06] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:01:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[13:02:31] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:02:40] *** Alex has joined the room
[13:02:57] *** daniel has left the room
[13:06:43] *** Guus has left the room
[13:06:50] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:07:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:09:02] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:13] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[13:10:16] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:17] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:18] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:35] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:35] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:36] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:10:36] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:11:04] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[13:11:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[13:12:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:15:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:17:50] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[13:18:03] *** stefandxm has left the room
[13:23:23] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:23:23] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:23:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:23:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:24:32] *** blabla shows as "online"
[13:25:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:30:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:31:04] *** Vaulor shows as "xa" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[13:31:09] *** Vaulor has left the room
[13:31:21] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:33:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[13:34:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:39:14] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[13:41:03] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:42:36] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:44:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:45:33] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[13:45:35] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:46:48] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:46:49] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:47:50] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[13:50:29] *** daniel has left the room
[13:51:14] *** daniel has joined the room
[13:53:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:53:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:53:35] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:54:23] *** waqas has left the room
[13:57:09] *** tux has left the room
[13:57:50] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[13:58:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:00:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:06:46] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:06:53] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:07:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:08:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:08:20] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:09:04] *** waqas has joined the room
[14:11:20] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[14:12:37] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:12:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:19:09] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:19:53] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:20:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:20:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:21:01] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[14:21:14] <jonasw> regarding the coloring thing, I’m still uncertain whether using the roster name or the JID is preferable.
using the roster name has the advantage that multiple JIDs to the same contact can have the same color. using the JID has the advantage that the color is stable even if I change the name.
[14:21:15] <jonasw> opinions?
[14:21:54] <jonasw> using the JID also has the advantage that the three different Martins in my roster could have different colours
[14:22:08] <jonasw> and I wonder how relevant the "I have the same person with multiple different JIDs in my roster" use-case really is
[14:22:10] *** sonny has joined the room
[14:22:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:24:24] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[14:24:58] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:24:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:25:42] *** Zash has left the room
[14:25:49] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:26:14] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:27:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:28:09] *** lumi has joined the room
[14:29:04] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:29:04] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:31:22] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[14:32:30] <SamWhited> I'm a fan of the JID. Although it would be a bit weird because toys have to do the bare for 1:1s and the resourcepart only for mucs probably.
[14:32:48] <jonasw> "toys"?
[14:33:11] <Zash> Weren't public semi-anon MUCs an edge case only used by nerds who nobody cares about (ie us)?
[14:33:13] <jonasw> for MUC the situation is indeed so that the nickname is used if the muc is anonymous, otherwise roster name or JID, depending on what we decide on
[14:33:34] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:33:43] <SouL> JID sounds really nice to me.
[14:33:45] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:34:19] <jonasw> I also tend to JID by now, even though I first thought that roster name would be nice
[14:34:41] <Ge0rG> No opinion from me
[14:36:02] <SamWhited> *sigh* phones
[14:36:16] <SamWhited> I think that was supposed to be "you would have to use…"
[14:37:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:37:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:37:42] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[14:37:50] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:37:54] <SamWhited> Also what Zash said though; probably best to just ignore MUC to keep things simple. The XEP already *looks* too long for such a simple client feature (I read through it, it seems fine, but initial impressions are everything and I'm already concerned that it looks complicated enough that clients won't bother trying to implement it)
[14:38:35] <jonasw> SamWhited, I thnik on the other hand that many XEPs are way too short because they lack detail.
[14:38:59] <jonasw> the part on MUC is literally three short paragraphs, I wouldn’t omit that
[14:39:17] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: MUC nick coloring was the actual reason for inventing that XEP
[14:39:20] <jonasw> we can move the test vectors to some appendix or so and not put each case in its own section, that’ll shorten the TOC a bit
[14:41:51] <SamWhited> jonasw: It's not a big deal, it looks like a really good XEP overall, I just worry about these things.
[14:41:55] *** stefandxm has left the room
[14:41:55] *** blabla shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:42:08] <jonasw> thanks, and ok
[14:42:35] *** blabla shows as "online"
[14:42:43] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:42:43] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:42:49] <jonasw> (also the thing isn’t that simple anymore once you consider color vision deficiencies and such)
[14:43:01] <Ge0rG> Maybe I should read the XEP as well, instead of just relying on what I think it contains.
[14:43:10] <SouL> Ge0rG, haha :)
[14:43:24] <jonasw> :D
[14:43:45] <Zash> Ge0rG: Blasphemy!
[14:43:46] <Ge0rG> SouL: something I had to explain to a customer today: as a Ph.D., you learn to make confident statements about something you have no idea of.
[14:43:55] <Zash> Ge0rG: You better only look at the examples!
[14:44:34] <Zash> -xkcd 793
[14:44:34] <Bunneh> Physicists
https://xkcd.com/793/
[14:44:40] <Ge0rG> actually, I just rely on jonasw writing down what we discussed at length multiple times ;)
[14:45:06] <SamWhited> I pretty much do only look at the examples the first time I "read" an XEP. I figure that's what client devs are going to do, so if they're confusing or lead to the wrong behavior it's probably something that should be fixed
[14:45:48] <jonasw> what hurt most while writing the XEP was trying to stick to en_US ;-)
[14:46:06] <Ge0rG> Yeah, blaming client devs for (even major) failures is very disappointing and surprisingly hard work. BTDT.
[14:46:12] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[14:47:14] <SamWhited> I'm not actually sure how to read that; if it sounded like I was blaming them, I'm not. I think that it's fine for them to only glance at the examples and it's our (XEP authors') fault if we don't communicate clearly with our examples.
[14:47:42] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[14:48:27] <SouL> Ge0rG, super good one :)
[14:48:44] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: you are absolutely right, my remark was rather tangentially related than a direct answer to yours
[14:49:35] <SamWhited> *nods* I think we're on the same page
[14:50:36] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[14:50:47] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:51:36] <Ge0rG> It just made me remember the Carbons attribution issue from earlier this year, and I think the Carbons spec is rather clear.
[14:51:43] <Ge0rG> At least in that regard.
[14:52:06] <SamWhited> ah yah, that one was bad
[14:52:17] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:52:20] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:52:31] <Ge0rG> And so were the reactions from developers.
[14:52:37] <Ge0rG> And so were the reactions from many developers.
[14:53:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:53:04] <SamWhited> Were they? The one or two issues I submitted (Mcabber and Jitsi, I think) were pretty good
[14:54:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:54:17] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: some developers just didn't care
[14:54:28] <SamWhited> figures
[14:54:38] <SamWhited> *sigh* oh well.
[14:54:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, did you send them carbons claiming to be from themselves to confuse them? :)
[14:55:27] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[14:55:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:56:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I sent some, but not to the devs
[14:56:22] <Ge0rG> Or at least not claiming their identities
[14:58:20] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:58:20] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:58:25] <jonasw> why not? :( ;-)
[14:58:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:58:58] <Ge0rG> It didn't appear to me, back then
[14:59:47] <Ge0rG> Instead I claimed to be an unpopular political character.
[15:02:05] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:09:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[15:10:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:10:57] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[15:10:58] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[15:12:41] *** jere has joined the room
[15:13:20] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[15:13:20] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:13:26] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:15:06] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:17:23] *** goffi has joined the room
[15:17:50] *** lumi has left the room
[15:18:10] *** daniel has left the room
[15:18:38] *** uc has joined the room
[15:18:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:19:04] *** uc shows as "online"
[15:19:54] *** daniel has joined the room
[15:21:54] *** goffi has left the room
[15:21:54] *** intosi shows as "online"
[15:22:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:24:50] *** Guus has left the room
[15:26:58] *** fp-tester has left the room
[15:27:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:27:10] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[15:28:36] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[15:28:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:32:11] *** goffi has joined the room
[15:32:28] *** goffi has left the room
[15:33:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:35:28] *** ralphm has left the room
[15:36:54] <Ge0rG> What would be the least inelegant way to implement a self-ping feature on MUC JIDs? It needs to be discoverable via caps info, and it needs to be something that doesn't have meaning yet. Maybe a certain IQ to the bare JID?
[15:37:32] <dwd> Discoverable by caps? That's hard.
[15:37:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, make a feature var which defines a ping to the bare MUC jid to only succeed iff the requesting resource is joined and return <item-not-found/> or somtehing otherwise
[15:38:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, make a feature var which defines a ping to the bare MUC jid to only succeed iff the requesting resource is joined and return <item-not-found/> or some other error if the user is not joined
[15:38:46] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:38:48] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that would probably make sense.
[15:38:58] <jonasw> currently how that ping behaves is undefined-ish I think
[15:39:00] <Ge0rG> we need to feature-check it anyway.
[15:39:05] <jonasw> yupp
[15:39:10] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:39:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: currently I'm pinging my own participant JID, which is a double-RTT va banque game.
[15:39:47] <jonasw> I know
[15:40:48] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that ping IQ semantics are defined already, and changing them is actually incompatible. Maybe a dedicated IQ makes more sense?
[15:41:00] *** goffi has joined the room
[15:41:25] <jonasw> Ge0rG, is the ping to a bare MUC jid really defined?
[15:41:46] <jonasw> daniel, you have some insight in the OMEMO topic, right? can you confirm that this is the result of the recent discussion which should be merged? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/482
[15:41:50] <dwd> Ge0rG, What are you doing to do with this ping?
[15:41:54] <Ge0rG> jonasw: Oh, right. IQs must go to a full JID
[15:42:05] <dwd> Ge0rG, Erm, no.
[15:42:07] <Ge0rG> dwd: I need to figure out if I'm still joined to a MUC
[15:42:22] <dwd> Ge0rG, OK. And if you're joined, you'll do nothing, and if not, you'll rejoin?
[15:42:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[15:42:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:42:37] <Ge0rG> dwd: exactly
[15:42:59] <dwd> Ge0rG, So - and I admit this has inefficiencies - as a first step, could you not just send presence?
[15:43:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the ping to the MUC component domain makes sense, the ping to the occupant JID does too, the ping to the bare MUC jid doesn’t really
[15:43:06] <Ge0rG> dwd: no.
[15:43:09] *** goffi has left the room
[15:43:12] <dwd> Ge0rG, Why not?
[15:43:16] <Ge0rG> dwd: sending presence is a "groupchat 1.0 leagacy" join
[15:43:25] <Ge0rG> dwd: sending presence is a "groupchat 1.0 legacy" join
[15:43:50] <Ge0rG> jonasw: not practically, but technically.
[15:43:57] <jonasw> Ge0rG, sure
[15:44:03] <dwd> Ge0rG, Well, yes, you'd get unwanted history potentially. But if that's *quite* close, is it somewhere to build from?
[15:44:12] <jonasw> and if the behaviour is practically undefined, you can re-define it to be something useful with a feature var
[15:44:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: the MUC implementation might mark me as a legacy client.
[15:44:40] *** blabla has left the room
[15:44:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, and sending presence with <x/>?
[15:45:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: would do a full rejoin every time.
[15:45:10] <jonasw> ugh
[15:45:13] <jonasw> even for a joined client?
[15:45:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you remember my last PR? ;)
[15:45:18] <jonasw> yeah
[15:45:24] <Ge0rG> it was exactly about that.
[15:45:32] <jonasw> do implementations behave that way?
[15:45:47] <Ge0rG> I have no idea. I think prosody trunk might.
[15:46:07] <dwd> jonasw, Rejoin handling? M-Link, Openfire, possibly ejabberd.
[15:46:34] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:46:43] <dwd> Ge0rG, When you say "might mark me as a legacy client", what do you think this would do? No servers I'm aware of do this.
[15:47:58] <Ge0rG> dwd: I have no idea. I consider "legacy groupchat" to be something to burn with fire, or at least to avoid.
[15:48:18] <Ge0rG> dwd: if I were God of XSF, I'd completely remove legacy groupchat from 45.
[15:48:44] <Zash> I sorta wanna remove it from Prosody. IIRC it'd simplify somewhat.
[15:48:56] *** goffi has joined the room
[15:49:16] <Ge0rG> dwd: I have no idea if anybody is still using it, or if there are dragons inside the implementations.
[15:49:36] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[15:49:37] <Ge0rG> MUC got enough hairy corner cases without groupchat legacy.
[15:49:54] <SamWhited> What is "legacy groupchat"? I don't see any mention of that grepping for "legacy" in 0045
[15:50:08] <Ge0rG> Though I must admit, "Groupchat Legacy" would make for an awesome title for an XSF-themed movie. Or computer game. Or rock band.
[15:50:16] <jonasw> SamWhited, search for Groupchat 1.0 Protocol
[15:50:23] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-gc
[15:50:43] *** goffi has left the room
[15:50:47] <SamWhited> ahh, yes, thanks. Kill it with fire.
[15:51:00] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:51:00] *** jere has left the room
[15:51:07] *** jere has joined the room
[15:51:45] <dwd> Ge0rG, The only difference is the join, though. Once you're joined, its exactly the same.
[15:51:52] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I volunteer to make the diff to 45, provided that council will signal pre-approval.
[15:52:16] <dwd> Ge0rG, So by periodically reflashing presence, you're just risking getting the wrong history.
[15:52:38] <Zash> dwd: Like gmail did?
[15:52:42] <Ge0rG> dwd: will my presence get forwarded to all participants?
[15:52:58] <Ge0rG> dwd: I have a MUC with histsize=500.
[15:53:04] <dwd> Zash, Ah, gmail re-sent a '45 join periodically as well. That was mega-annoying.
[15:53:21] <Zash> Rebroadcasted all directed presence too iirc
[15:53:23] <dwd> Ge0rG, Yes, and also erk. But I think it's an interesting place to start.
[15:53:28] <jonasw> I think a ping is a cleaner solution. nothing wrong if it’s with a feature var, is there?
[15:53:38] <Zash> In such a way that if they changed nickname, they'd periodically switch back and forth
[15:54:12] <dwd> Ge0rG, If your server both maintains, and always sends by default, 500 lines of history there's something badly wrong somewhere.
[15:54:23] <dwd> Zash, Indeed. I'm not suggesting that.
[15:54:24] <Ge0rG> dwd: I totally could live with a <presence><limited history><I'mtherealready></p>
[15:55:14] <dwd> Ge0rG, In principle, a server could/should not rebroadcast presence where its identical anyway. But that's a small point.
[15:55:15] <Ge0rG> dwd: I think that having 500 lines of history in the default buffer beats MUC-MAM.
[15:55:20] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be all for that.
[15:55:28] <Ge0rG> dwd: it's a small O(N²) point.
[15:55:41] <SamWhited> Others are probably more conservative since it is in draft, after all.
[15:56:00] <Ge0rG> Eternal draft.
[15:56:14] <Zash> <presence><{muc}x><{mam}history plz/><//
[15:56:15] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: Is there some reason to move it on past draft?
[15:56:17] <dwd> SamWhited, The fallback is it's a rejoin/rebroadcast.
[15:57:57] <Ge0rG> dwd: there is another problem with the presence approach: if you lost sync, you'll get the history (mkay), and you'll get a full participant list. But you need to know in advance that you are receiving a full list so you can clear your previous list.
[15:58:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: otherwise you'll end up with stale participants in your cache
[15:58:46] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[15:58:46] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:59:19] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:59:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:59:23] <Ge0rG> and race conditions will prevent any sensible workaround
[16:00:47] <jonasw> right
[16:01:40] <Ge0rG> Besides of all that, some client (library) implementations don't expect to receive a join from a MUC they are already joined into. So they might lose sync anyway.
[16:02:30] <dwd> Ge0rG, Well a library written to use a periodic presence as a ping-or-rejoin will work fine, surely?
[16:02:58] <Ge0rG> dwd: yes, unless you hacked the ping-or-rejoin code on top of an old library. ;)
[16:03:45] <Ge0rG> Maybe it would be cleaner to respond to a non-x-ed <presence> with an error, so the client can rejoin?
[16:03:54] *** Vaulor has joined the room
[16:04:42] <Ge0rG> But still, we have the O(N²) problem that every client, sending a periodic presence, will flood everybody else.
[16:05:11] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:05:13] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:05:34] <Ge0rG> Can anybody gather stats on "groupchat 1.0" usage?
[16:06:06] <MattJ> https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/gc_pinger.html
[16:06:21] <MattJ> (not an answer to your question about usage stats)
[16:06:32] <dwd> Ge0rG, "If I write my code badly it might be written badly" is not a tremendous argument.
[16:07:06] *** Martin shows as "online"
[16:07:20] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:07:45] <dwd> MattJ, You're suggesting that this be done server-side instead?
[16:08:11] <MattJ> I'm merely dropping a historical anecdote :)
[16:08:28] <Ge0rG> dwd: it's not a tremendous argument indeed. Please focus on my two material arguments instead.
[16:08:58] *** uc shows as "online"
[16:09:12] <dwd> Ge0rG, Excellent. So if the client is dropped from the MUC without its knowledge, and simply sends an updated presence, then you'll be inadvertantly getting the same problem but this time it's unavoidable.
[16:09:31] <Ge0rG> dwd: right. But this is another argument.
[16:09:49] <MattJ> Server-side doesn't tell the client that they are disconnected, does it even help? It helps them not be de-synced when they rejoin, but only if the server happened to ping them in that time period
[16:09:51] <dwd> Ge0rG, The only solution would be to, before updating presence, send your IQ-based ping beforehand. But then there's a minute race condition, which you'll no doubt be disproportionally upset about.
[16:10:38] <Ge0rG> dwd: I don't think it is wrong to focus on corner cases when aiming to design robust protocols.
[16:10:58] <Ge0rG> dwd: if we design a 90% protocol, we'll end up in the place we are in today.
[16:11:27] <MattJ> +1, corner cases matter
[16:11:33] <Ge0rG> where my desktop client at home disconnects from a MUC because I'm joined to the same MUC with the same nickname from my mobile device when on the go.
[16:11:39] <Zash> If we design a 100% protocol, we'll be done in the year 3000?
[16:11:50] <MattJ> Zash, then we can release 0.10
[16:11:55] <dwd> Ge0rG, Excellent. So I've given you a corner case which your design fails to address, and my (sketched) design does.
[16:12:02] <Ge0rG> Zash: fixing MUC isn't _that_ complicated. If we can get rid of legacy.
[16:12:15] <dwd> Ge0rG, Legacy meaning gc?
[16:12:18] <jonasw> dwd, and how to solve the issue with inconsistent occupant state?
[16:12:28] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:12:31] <MattJ> I'm inclined to agree with finally dropping GC 1.0 support
[16:12:33] <jonasw> when I’m re-sending presence and in fact I’m doing a join, I don’t get presence notifications for occupants which left in the meantime
[16:12:34] <Ge0rG> dwd: I'm not saying your design is bad, or that it's wrong to follow that approach. I'm just pointing out that your sketch won't work.
[16:12:40] *** Martin shows as "online"
[16:12:42] <jonasw> I think both designs don’t work
[16:13:01] <Ge0rG> dwd: in the current context, legacy means GC. But I'd be glad to kick out more legacy when appropriate.
[16:13:04] <jonasw> and ideally there would be an IQ based join which either fails or succeeds and only after the IQ returns you get the presence updates, so that it’s fully synchronous
[16:13:18] <dwd> jonasw, Sure, but that's MIX.
[16:13:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm okay with a presence based join that succeeds as soon as you get a presence reflection.
[16:13:38] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[16:13:38] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:14:14] <Ge0rG> Which is MUC.
[16:16:39] *** tux has joined the room
[16:16:58] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[16:17:00] *** ralphm has joined the room
[16:18:55] <Ge0rG> dwd: I could imagine a periodic presence with yet another additional element, where the server would respond with a presence-unavailable, followed by a full rejoin.
[16:19:11] <Ge0rG> dwd: and all of this would depend on a feature flag.
[16:19:29] <Ge0rG> dwd: and the server wouldn't forward such a presence to other participants, unless it contains a delta.
[16:19:40] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[16:19:53] *** Guus has left the room
[16:20:02] <Ge0rG> dwd: the presence-unavailable (or any other response marker) is needed to make the client flush the cached data.
[16:20:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:20:44] <jonasw> Ge0rG, "succeeds as soon as you get a presence reflection"? I don’t understand that part
[16:21:31] *** goffi has joined the room
[16:21:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: a MUC always reflects presence to you. So once you get that reflected presence from the MUC, you know you are inside.
[16:21:49] <Ge0rG> reflects your own presence, that is.
[16:22:01] <jonasw> sure, but ... how do you know the occupants list when you didn’t know that you re-joined?
[16:22:22] *** uc shows as "online"
[16:22:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "the presence-unavailable (or any other response marker) is needed to make the client flush the cached data."
[16:22:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:22:44] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:22:45] <jonasw> ahh
[16:23:10] <dwd> (Or: The occupant data could have a delay tag in)
[16:23:26] <jonasw> dwd, does that help you to identify which occupants have left in the mean time?
[16:23:46] <Ge0rG> 1. MUC advertises "smart-resync"
2. you join, normally.
3. you send a <presence><smart-resync>
4a. you get a presence reflection
4b. you get a presence-unavailable followed by a full resync
[16:23:47] <dwd> No, but you know when the end of the occupant list is, so that should be OK.
[16:24:21] <Ge0rG> dwd: you need to know the beginning of the occupant list.
[16:24:25] *** Lance has joined the room
[16:24:26] *** Lance shows as "online"
[16:24:37] <Ge0rG> dwd: so essentially you must strip <delay> from inbound client presences
[16:24:50] <dwd> Ge0rG, What?
[16:25:01] <Ge0rG> and if the client receives a presence with a delay, it knows that it's at the beginning of a rejoin.
[16:25:12] *** lovetox has joined the room
[16:26:06] <Zash> Was there a status code for 'this means you just joined'
[16:26:15] <dwd> Ge0rG, I suppose you could do it that way. Or spot your own afterward and clear any untainted. Or ...
[16:26:23] <Ge0rG> Zash: yes, it will be in your own reflected presence at the end of the occupant list
[16:26:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: RACE CONDITIONS!!1!!
[16:26:46] <Ge0rG> Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
[16:27:03] <dwd> Ge0rG, I don't think there are any there.
[16:27:10] <dwd> Ge0rG, Unless you're getting stanzas out of order.
[16:27:19] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:27:54] <Ge0rG> dwd: any participant presence you receive after sending your smart-resync-presence might be either old presence from your previous MUC session or the beginning of the occupant list. No way to know.
[16:28:18] <Ge0rG> So what you could do is to put all the presences into a queue until you get your own reflection. Or the subject.
[16:28:35] <Ge0rG> I think it's your own with the appropriate status code
[16:29:05] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[16:29:05] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:29:32] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[16:29:54] <dwd> Ge0rG, You'd get your own afterward, certainly. And any presence you get after a smart-resync is either un-delayed, in which case it's the first stanza(s) you'll get and it potentially stale but who cares because you'll notice this later - or else is delay marked, and therefore part of a resync.
[16:30:30] <Ge0rG> dwd: unless it is a delayed presence because the sending client added a delay element.
[16:30:36] <dwd> Ge0rG, The only pattern, in other words is: *non-delay [ *delay ] your-reflection
[16:30:42] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:30:55] <dwd> Ge0rG, Yes, but there's a thing in delays to tell you who is delaying.
[16:31:07] <Ge0rG> dwd: and I need to put all the non-delayed presences into a queue and unwind them once I realize it's a resync.
[16:31:28] <Ge0rG> dwd: that's not how you design a robust protocol.
[16:31:55] <Ge0rG> dwd: and really, what's wrong with injecting a presence-unavailable?
[16:31:55] <dwd> Ge0rG, No you don't.
[16:32:26] <MattJ> So what isn't solved by <presence type="error"> if the client isn't in the room and they send presence with no <x>?
[16:32:26] <dwd> Ge0rG, The moment you see a presence delayed by the MUC, you're rejoining. You weren't before, you now are.
[16:32:39] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:32:50] <Ge0rG> dwd: okay, you try to make it work in a backward compatible way. I appreciate that. But it's not easy.
[16:32:53] <Ge0rG> MattJ: groupchat 1.0
[16:33:02] <MattJ> and apart from that?
[16:33:03] <dwd> MattJ, Breaks compatibility with gc, of course. Whether that's now safe to do I'm not sure, though it feels dangerous.
[16:33:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:33:17] <Zash> What clients do gc?
[16:33:31] <MattJ> I'm willing to do it
[16:34:03] <Zash> What *clients* do it, not counting advanced users manually typing XML in netcat (like I do sometimes)?
[16:34:08] <MattJ> I don't mind if 20 year-old clients break, and probably some bots. Any actively maintained clients likely do the right thing already or will be fixed promptly
[16:34:10] <Ge0rG> MattJ: you could create stats on GC1 clients.
[16:34:32] <Ge0rG> MattJ: presence-error would also be a nice way to make GC1 client devs care.
[16:34:42] <Zash> Prosody trunk MUC logs such conditions already
[16:34:47] <Zash> Debug level, but still
[16:35:07] <Ge0rG> most of it will probably be resync problems.
[16:35:13] <dwd> Does/did gc have any discovery? I suspect not.
[16:35:44] <Zash> Ge0rG: It logs joins without <x> and presence with <x>
[16:36:29] <Ge0rG> Okay, I'm late for my weekend already. Thanks very much for the productive discussion. Maybe you can bring up killing GC in the next council meeting?
[16:37:00] <MattJ> I think that's the best solution, and I'm willing to move forwards on it as a server dev
[16:37:01] <Ge0rG> I think that would be a good first step, with the second step being an explicit smart-resync presence feature
[16:37:31] *Ge0rG &
[16:37:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:38:13] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[16:38:42] <MattJ> fg
[16:39:17] *** Martin has left the room
[16:39:23] <SamWhited> I'll add it to the agenda when I get back to my desk if someone else hasn't already (leaving this here as a note to myself)
[16:39:30] <dwd> kill -STOP %1
[16:39:42] <MattJ> Now he'll never get home
[16:40:11] <dwd> MattJ, "SIGSTOP cannot be caught or ignored."
[16:43:02] <jonasw> SamWhited, did it for you
[16:43:13] <SamWhited> Thanks
[16:43:40] *** tux has joined the room
[16:44:19] <jonasw> who has power over https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xeps/builds/ ?
[16:44:24] <jonasw> I could use someone hitting a retry button.
[16:44:31] <jonasw> that build failed due to some remote network issue
[16:44:51] <dwd> jonasw, Randomly update the README?
[16:44:59] <jonasw> good point, I wanted to merge my readme stuff anyways
[16:47:11] *** goffi has left the room
[16:47:33] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[16:47:51] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[16:48:02] *** vanitasvitae shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[16:48:03] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:48:53] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[16:48:59] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:49:40] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[16:51:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:52:06] *** Yagiza has left the room
[16:52:15] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:54:36] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[16:54:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:55:40] *** efrit has joined the room
[16:58:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:58:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:02:15] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:03:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:03:49] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:06:14] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:06:48] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:06:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:09:00] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[17:09:37] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:09:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:10:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:10:47] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:11:41] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:12:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:12:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:15:44] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:17:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:18:36] *** jere has joined the room
[17:18:42] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:19:04] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:20:34] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:20:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:21:15] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:21:17] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:21:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:21:57] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:22:47] *** lumi has joined the room
[17:23:23] *** lumi has joined the room
[17:23:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:24:02] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:27:38] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:27:46] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:32:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:33:00] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:33:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[17:33:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:35:35] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:36:05] *** valo has joined the room
[17:40:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:41:26] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:41:27] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:43:16] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:43:20] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:43:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:45:35] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:46:46] *** efrit has left the room
[17:47:23] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:47:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:49:02] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:51:45] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[17:51:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:56:32] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:56:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:56:35] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[17:58:12] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:59:16] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:59:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:59:38] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:59:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:01:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:01:38] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[18:05:25] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:06:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:06:54] *** tux has joined the room
[18:07:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:07:15] *** dwd has left the room
[18:07:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:08:39] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:08:41] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:08:49] *** Guus has left the room
[18:09:39] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:10:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:11:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:14:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:16:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:16:34] *** Vaulor shows as "xa" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[18:16:39] *** Vaulor has left the room
[18:16:48] *** tux shows as "online"
[18:18:23] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:18:45] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[18:19:10] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[18:19:44] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[18:20:08] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:20:08] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[18:20:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:21:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:21:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:22:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:22:21] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:23:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:23:24] *** daniel has left the room
[18:23:28] *** daniel has joined the room
[18:26:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:27:37] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:27:42] *** Guus has left the room
[18:28:58] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:31:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:32:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:33:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:34:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:35:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:36:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:36:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:37:13] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[18:37:51] *** Guus has left the room
[18:38:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:40:18] *** SouL has left the room
[18:41:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:41:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:41:26] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[18:42:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:47:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:49:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:49:33] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[18:50:22] *** tux has left the room
[18:51:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:51:31] <moparisthebest> woah jonasw warning: failed to load external entity "http://xsltsl.sourceforge.net/modules/node.xsl" the xep build depends on sourceforge being up? that sounds like a bad bet
[18:51:42] <moparisthebest> can it be fixed to not depend on any remote entities?
[18:52:44] <Guus> Hey, did Thiago become active again?
[18:55:34] *** SouL shows as "online"
[18:56:14] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:57:39] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:57:41] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:03:16] <fippo> nice change @ jingle relay nodes.
[19:03:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:05:28] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:05:28] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:05:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[19:05:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:05:43] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[19:05:49] *** lovetox has left the room
[19:06:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:06:33] *** lovetox has joined the room
[19:06:56] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:06:58] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:07:52] *** uc has left the room
[19:08:08] <fippo> mattj: remember that xep-0215 is much better though!
[19:18:00] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[19:18:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[19:18:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away"
[19:18:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[19:18:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "away"
[19:18:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[19:19:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "away"
[19:19:01] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:19:38] <pep.> edhelas, DNS resolution failed on movim.eu
[19:19:56] <edhelas> which DNS ?
[19:20:36] <pep.> movim@conference.movim.eu/pep.: cancel: Server-to-server connection failed: DNS resolution failed
[19:21:20] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:23:42] <pep.> I can dig it from here actually :/
[19:23:49] <pep.> And from my server
[19:24:26] <edhelas> IPv6 maybe ?
[19:24:52] <pep.> works as well
[19:25:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:25:32] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[19:25:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:28:41] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:28:41] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:31:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:33:02] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[19:33:36] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:36:15] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:38:11] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:38:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:39:37] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[19:43:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:43:58] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:44:02] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:44:15] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:44:19] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:44:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:45:14] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:45:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:45:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:48:05] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:48:13] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[19:49:32] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:50:03] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:50:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:51:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[19:52:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:52:53] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:54:02] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:54:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:55:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:56:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:57:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:01:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:01:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:06:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:10:33] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:10:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:10:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:10:35] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:11:45] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:12:19] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:12:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:12:50] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:13:37] *** sonny has left the room
[20:13:41] *** sonny has joined the room
[20:14:02] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:14:45] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:15:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:17:37] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:20:25] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:20:31] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[20:23:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:23:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:24:29] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:24:30] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:27:49] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[20:28:15] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[20:34:27] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:34:33] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:36:35] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[20:38:26] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:38:43] *** Alex has left the room
[20:40:07] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:40:07] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:41:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:43:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:43:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:45:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:45:53] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:46:17] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:51:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:52:18] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[20:54:49] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:54:49] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:55:08] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:55:09] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:55:11] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:55:11] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:56:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:58:56] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[21:04:34] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:04:37] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[21:09:13] *** Tobias has left the room
[21:09:29] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[21:09:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:10:06] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[21:10:19] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[21:11:17] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:11:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:19:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:23:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:23:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:23:50] *** jere has joined the room
[21:25:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[21:26:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:26:23] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:26:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:29:51] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:30:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:30:52] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:39:45] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:39:45] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:39:53] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:40:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:41:35] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:42:51] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:43:05] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:45:15] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[21:47:07] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:47:07] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[21:48:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[21:53:06] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:53:08] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:53:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:56:10] *** fp-tester has left the room
[21:56:16] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:56:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:56:27] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[21:58:09] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[21:58:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "away"
[21:58:22] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[22:05:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:06:29] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[22:10:13] *** daniel has left the room
[22:11:06] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:11:06] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:12:38] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[22:12:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[22:15:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:18:46] *** Alex has left the room
[22:19:57] *** Guus has left the room
[22:21:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:24:54] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:26:17] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:26:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:26:53] *** tux has left the room
[22:26:55] *** tux has joined the room
[22:29:28] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:40:39] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:45:38] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[22:48:33] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[22:48:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[22:51:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:56:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:56:14] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:59:32] *** waqas has left the room
[23:00:14] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[23:00:21] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:02:21] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:05:26] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:08:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[23:10:32] *** Guus has left the room
[23:11:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:11:14] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:12:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:14:16] *** waqas has joined the room
[23:15:26] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:18:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[23:23:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:24:01] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:26:15] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:26:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:27:28] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[23:27:31] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[23:33:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:35:01] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:35:35] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[23:37:31] *** waqas has left the room
[23:37:32] *** waqas has joined the room
[23:37:53] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:39:27] *** lovetox has left the room
[23:41:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:41:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:43:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[23:45:57] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:48:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:51:58] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:53:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:56:15] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:56:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:58:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[23:59:00] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:59:45] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"