Thursday, September 21, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:29:02] <jonasw> Zash, mhm thanks
[07:29:10] <jonasw> not sure what you expect me to do with it though
[07:29:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:29:48] <Zash> jonasw: me neither
[07:29:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:29:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:29:52] <jonasw> okay :)
[07:29:56] <jonasw> then I’m just going to ignore that for now
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[07:30:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
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[08:27:58] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
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[10:18:09] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:18:46] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[10:18:51] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[10:34:29] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[10:38:18] *** jonasw shows as "online"
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[10:46:41] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[11:02:57] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[11:35:26] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[13:19:13] <Ge0rG> Is there any way to mark a message as related to some other message, without specifying the exact type of relation? We have 0372 for explicit references, <thread>s, LMC, but they all imply a certain relationship
[13:19:49] <jonasw> what is the use-case?
[13:20:23] <Ge0rG> jonasw: MAM - when a given message is asked for, it is useful to provide all the related messages as well.
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[13:20:36] <jonasw> I’m not convinced
[13:20:44] <jonasw> at least not as default behaviour
[13:21:22] <Ge0rG> jonasw: some messages only make sense on top of others, e.g. reactions or LMC
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[13:21:27] <jonasw> sure
[13:21:36] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it would be impractical to deliver only the addon message but not the original one
[13:21:37] <jonasw> for reactions, I’d simply omit those
[13:21:51] <jonasw> (in the view that is)
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[13:22:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if your client receives a reaction message with a dangling reference, you need to store the XML and process it later when the actual message is obtained.
[13:22:16] <jonasw> yes.
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[13:23:53] <jonasw> I don’t necessarily see an issue with that
[13:24:07] <jonasw> while handling out-of-order messages is more annoying
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[13:25:16] <edhelas> the new CSS breaks horizontal scrolling on some XEPs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
[13:26:16] <jonasw> scrolling works, but indeed it’s an issue that it’s required
[13:26:46] <jonasw> edhelas, can you make an issue on the xeps repository?
[13:27:17] <Ge0rG> 385 is just too wide.
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[13:28:14] <edhelas> jonasw done
[13:28:33] <jonasw> edhelas, thanks
[13:28:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, we can’t go over all XEPs to fix that
[13:29:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: we could define a common mechanism to cross-reference messages and use that?
[13:29:05] <jonasw> well, we could, but ...
[13:29:10] <Ge0rG> but.
[13:29:13] <jonasw> Ge0rG, sure, yet-another-standard? :)
[13:29:28] <Ge0rG> jonasw: stop spoiling the fun!
[13:29:28] <edhelas> it's possible in CSS to break lines properly
[13:31:30] <jonasw> edhelas, auto-breaking of lines in code examples sounds like a bad idea
[13:31:54] <edhelas> I also have a question
[13:32:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you’d want to rebase the existing use-cases (LMC etc.) on that, and especially with LMC I see a lot of breakage from that...
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[13:32:30] <edhelas> I'm planning to use MAM to retrieve MUC histories, is it possible to disable the default messages pushed by the server on login ?
[13:32:55] <daniel> edhelas: yes
[13:33:11] <edhelas> oh ?
[13:33:41] <jonasw> edhelas, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-managehistory
[13:34:00] <jonasw> maxchars='0' is one example
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[13:34:23] <jonasw> (I’d set maxchars='0' *and* maxstanzas='0' to be sure; I guess not all services support maxchars)
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[13:35:02] <edhelas> oh, so I should explicitely disable them
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[13:35:25] <edhelas> thanks jonasw :)
[13:35:28] <jonasw> np :)
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[13:35:43] <daniel> jonasw: I think I only set maxchars and I never had problems
[13:35:52] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
[13:36:01] <SamWhited> That was meant for things like that
[13:37:04] <jonasw> daniel, "never", not even biboumi? ;)
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[13:39:29] <daniel> Even though maxchar is a very weird metric now that I think about it. I guess back in the day is just copy pasted that from somewhere
[13:39:48] <daniel> This will probably break if you set something other than 0
[13:40:28] <jonasw> agreed
[13:40:30] <daniel> jonasw: didn't know that biboumi was a problem. Never got reported to me
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[13:40:56] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: is there a reason for using message ID and not unique ID?
[13:41:04] <jonasw> odd, I had something about that in the back of my head. maybe it was about MAM instead
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[13:41:36] <daniel> jonasw: yes. Mam did break the stanza queue for sm
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[13:41:54] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: no, I don't think anyone supports unique ID
[13:41:55] <Ge0rG> XEP-0045 is full of quirks
[13:42:08] <SamWhited> But it doesn't matter to me
[13:43:01] <Ge0rG> I'd really love to fix message IDs instead of inventing new unique IDs. But backward compatibility!1!
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[13:53:32] <SamWhited> Oh, am I mixing those up? Whichever. I would be fine coupling it to the unique stable message ID thing, whichever that is
[13:54:01] <jonasw> XEP-0359 (<https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html>)
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[13:54:55] <SamWhited> Right, that.
[13:55:15] <SamWhited> Yah, in that case the real reason this doesn't support it is that HipChat doesn't support it and I was never going to be able to convince them to let me ad even more stuff.
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[13:59:36] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: Do you think you'd want to use it for something? If so I wouldn't mind updating it to use the unique ID stuff
[14:00:09] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: some weeks ago, the topic of grouping messages when delivering MAM data came up here
[14:02:35] <moparisthebest> just curious, how do you know messages are related?
[14:02:47] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's the challenge
[14:03:05] <moparisthebest> like these might be in response to your stuff, in fact they are, but they might just be a random unrelated topic
[14:03:10] <SamWhited> Oh, this is for grouping messages sent in reply to another message? That seems different to me
[14:03:25] <moparisthebest> that seems like an unsolvable challenge from an automated perspective, so a xep to support the grouping seems useless
[14:03:35] <SamWhited> actually, maybe not…
[14:03:37] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: it's about finding out which messages are related to each other
[14:04:00] <SamWhited> I agree with half of what moparisthebest said; it seems unsolvable if you're trying to automate it. That doesn't mean you can't have a good UI that leads the user to do the work for you.
[14:04:05] <moparisthebest> I don't think you can and that's why it just returns the last X or whatever
[14:04:34] <moparisthebest> SamWhited, if I respond to you like this I guess you could call those grouped (by putting your name first)
[14:04:38] <jonasw> the relation is already spelled out in the XML (LMC, Reactions...)
[14:04:45] <jonasw> there’s just no unified way to detect it
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[14:04:53] <jonasw> (it’s, from my understanding, not about generic replies)
[14:05:03] <SamWhited> moparisthebest: That seems like a sensible guess
[14:05:16] <SamWhited> This seems more like what <thread> is for though
[14:05:19] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I'm not speaking about message that have content that relates to other messages
[14:05:38] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I'm speaking about technical dependencies, like "this message is a reaction to message XY"
[14:05:52] <Ge0rG> so it doesn't make sense to parse / display the message without also having XY
[14:05:56] <SamWhited> oh yes, that's what I thought you meant originally, yah, that's totally what this is for
[14:06:17] <SamWhited> I think… you mean things like clients having a +1 button or a party hat button or something?
[14:06:23] <Ge0rG> so it would make sense, in the context of MAM, to use unique IDs
[14:06:25] <jonasw> SamWhited, yes
[14:06:30] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: yeah
[14:06:38] <SamWhited> Cool, yah, moparisthebest was confusing me :)
[14:06:46] <SamWhited> That is indeed what this was made for
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[14:07:14] <jonasw> so let’s rebase xep-0367 on stable & unique message IDs and build a reactions XEP on top of that
[14:07:22] <Ge0rG> jonasw: +1
[14:07:31] <Ge0rG> Except...
[14:07:39] <jonasw> you want me to do the work, right? ;P
[14:07:46] <Ge0rG> You still don't know the unique message ID of outgoing messages.
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[14:08:16] <SamWhited> I don't remember the MID spec, but it allows clients to assign one too, right?
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[14:08:35] <jonasw> SamWhited, indeed
[14:08:49] <SamWhited> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ problem solved
[14:09:06] <jonasw> so called origin-id
[14:09:08] <Ge0rG> But MAM operates on the server-assigned ID
[14:09:33] <SamWhited> That seems fine; MAM operates on server assigned ID, this operates on client assigned ones.
[14:10:09] <jonasw> it would be convenient if the client could query MAM for the message if MAM doesn’t support grouping
[14:10:13] <jonasw> (the proposed grouping that is)
[14:10:46] <jonasw> alternatively, we could modify MAM to adopt the client-generated origin-id for sent messages iff it doesn’t conflict with any existing ID (and maybe reject delivery otherwise or something)
[14:11:20] <Ge0rG> I'm sure somebody will pull the "omg security!1!" card on that.
[14:11:41] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG‎: "this message is a reaction to message XY" -- how do you know that though?
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[14:11:59] <jonasw> moparisthebest, reaction as in "+1 button"
[14:12:04] <jonasw> not as I react to your message right now
[14:12:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, how?
[14:12:16] <jonasw> (and isn’t that usually your job?)
[14:12:37] <moparisthebest> he said 'this message is a reaction' not 'I hit a +1' (is +1 a thing in xmpp or any clients?)
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[14:12:44] <jonasw> not yet, that’s the point
[14:12:51] <jonasw> and those "+1 buttons" are usually called reactions
[14:12:52] <jonasw> e.g. on github
[14:12:53] <Ge0rG> jonasw: let's see... if the server is using a typical hash-table implementation, a client could DoS it by contructing specially-chosen UUIDs.
[14:12:59] <jonasw> Ge0rG, meeeh :P
[14:13:07] <jonasw> just don’t tell clients your hash seed?
[14:13:21] <Ge0rG> This one! https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/12/huge-portions-of-web-vulnerable-to-hashing-denial-of-service-attack/
[14:13:33] <jonasw> that’s a general vector, and afaict choosing a random hash seed is sufficient to fix that
[14:13:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm sure it's possible to extract the seed via side-channel attacks
[14:13:56] <jonasw> Ge0rG, *sigh*
[14:14:11] <jonasw> then we’ll have to operate on the client-generated ID. it’s saner anyways, because it works without MAM
[14:14:27] <jonasw> MAM will have to interpret these IDs then and intrenally store their relatedness for queries
[14:14:41] <edhelas> what is the correct request to get MAM history from MUC ?
[14:14:52] <jonasw> edhelas, ask the MUC for history?
[14:14:57] <edhelas> <iq xmlns="jabber:client" type="set" id="S8lR4X"><query xmlns="urn:xmpp:mam:1"><x xmlns="jabber:x:data" type="submit"><field var="FORM_TYPE"><value>urn:xmpp:mam:1</value></field><field var="with"><value>muc@conference.movim.eu</value></field></x><set xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/rsm"><max>300</max></set></query></iq>
[14:15:00] <jonasw> (I don’t know of any non-biboumi MUCs which support that)
[14:15:03] <edhelas> looks like I'm wrong somewhere
[14:15:06] <jonasw> edhelas, also, this may be better suited in jdev@
[14:15:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yeah. Because it's a good thing to have three different IDs on each message.
[14:15:13] <edhelas> a true
[14:15:15] <edhelas> sory
[14:15:24] <jonasw> Ge0rG, m(
[14:15:56] <jonasw> why exactly is a mam query a type='set' operation?!
[14:16:09] <Ge0rG> oh, wait. those IDs are all insufficient in some ways. Let's create a new XEP with a fourth, universal ID!
[14:16:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, any other suggestion? other than getting a sent-carbon for your own message with the MAM ID >.>
[14:16:41] <SamWhited> hmm, I guess querying MAM for "a message and all of its reactions" would be sort of nice. I'm not sure if it's strictly necessary though.
[14:16:51] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that was exactly what I proposed back then.
[14:17:01] <SamWhited> It seems to add another dimension of complication for something that could easily be lived without.
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[14:17:25] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: the problem is not "a message and all of its reactions" but rather "the message and all the messages you need to properly understand it"
[14:18:05] <SamWhited> Why would you ever actually need to do that? I don't dislike the idea of making sure that's queryable, it just doesn't seem like a common enough thing to worry about.
[14:18:07] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: if you receive a reaction message with an unresolved reference ID, you need to delay processing until you know what it is a reaction to
[14:18:17] <SamWhited> I suspect 90% of people will just sync history and you'll see new reactions appearing as history gets updated
[14:18:26] <SamWhited> That seems fine
[14:18:30] <jonasw> I tend to agree
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[14:18:59] <Ge0rG> I tend to process messages when they are received, but that doesn't work with missing references.
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[14:19:57] <jonasw> the argument Ge0rG makes is in the spirit of the "simple clients, complex servers" principle though
[14:20:09] <SamWhited> Does MAM not guarantee delivery order?
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[14:20:21] <SamWhited> Oh, nevermind, stupid question
[14:20:25] <jonasw> ok :)
[14:20:32] <SamWhited> If you have a reaction and *then* you sync history it doesn't matter what MAM does.
[14:20:32] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: it only guarantees the order for the subset you request.
[14:20:36] <SamWhited> yup, yup
[14:21:03] <SamWhited> So in that case though you end up having to make a MAM query, then for each message make another query asking if there are any reactions you haven't received yet
[14:21:30] <Ge0rG> if there are any messages for a given reaction.
[14:21:34] <jonasw> SamWhited, no, the idea would be that the original MAM query would give you all messages to which there have been reactions in the result setd
[14:21:46] <jonasw> (even though they may be outside the range of messages you requested)
[14:22:11] <Ge0rG> jonasw: but that would violate message order, and lead to interesting results.
[14:22:16] <SamWhited> This seems like a lot of additional complexity when you could just store your reactions somewhere on the client and when you get a message if you have reactions in storage already display them.
[14:22:31] <SamWhited> Or when you get a reaction, if you have the message its linked to, also display it.
[14:23:11] <Ge0rG> example: you request 50 messages before #103. you get #53-#102 and #40 because it was reacted to. Next, you request 50 messages before #40, because it is the earliest in your history. #41-#52 are lost
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[14:23:44] <jonasw> Ge0rG, all depends on the sanity of your implementation
[14:23:49] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: that makes (limited) sense if you store the original message XML somewhere
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[14:23:59] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do you really need the XML? I don’t think so.
[14:24:12] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: I don't think the storage format matters
[14:24:13] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: but then you end up searching your storage for a reference to each new message you receive.
[14:24:26] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: That seems fine
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[14:24:45] *Ge0rG pulls the client DoS card.
[14:25:01] <jonasw> I pull the "use a proper storage backend" card
[14:25:02] <SamWhited> There is no client DoS card.
[14:25:04] <jonasw> e.g. a simple sqlite database
[14:25:18] <jonasw> just add a column "reaction_to" with a stable message ID thing
[14:25:23] <jonasw> add an index to it
[14:25:31] <jonasw> -> reasonable lookup time
[14:25:46] <jonasw> you also only need to do that for messages you fetch from the archive
[14:25:51] <SamWhited> Flat XML files are probably fine, you are going to get a bunch of stuff to store, that's just how XMPP works. If you're worried about scans and lookup times, its your job to do something intelligent and make sure you don't dos yourself.
[14:26:12] <SamWhited> Maybe that means creating an "unknown references" file to make scanning quicker, maybe it means using a database. That's up to you.
[14:26:43] <Ge0rG> I wish for the times when XMPP servers were complicated and XMPP clients were simple.
[14:27:19] <SamWhited> I agree with that in general, but this doesn't make the XMPP client complicated; it makes it a dumb display layer that doesn't have to have a ton of logic about doing crazy MAM queries.
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[14:28:02] <SamWhited> It can just keep doing whatever it was already doing and process things as they come in. It might be processing the reaction, or it might be processing the message in terms of reactions it already has.
[14:28:46] <moparisthebest> do clients generally do mam queries reversed like that?
[14:29:01] <moparisthebest> conversations doesn't seem to, it seems to start loading from your last message and go forward
[14:29:09] <moparisthebest> in which case everything *just works*
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[14:29:22] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I think there are two models of MAM usage: (a) query for everything since your last connection, (b) query a given channel / user history on demand when opening the tab
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[14:32:22] <moparisthebest> oh I was waiting for b until I just realized gajim made that into a beer...
[14:32:55] <Ge0rG> "Clients and servers MUST NOT include an <attach-to/> element on messages with a non-messaging payload unless they are including it on an error which may be attached to the message that caused the error to be generated."
What is a "non-messaging payload"?
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[14:33:15] <SamWhited> No idea, no <body> I guess? That should probably be fixed.
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[14:33:38] <SamWhited> Or just removed, I don't see the point in that restriction anymore.
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[15:07:36] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: for reactions, I'd go with a separate non-<body> element, because people in here demanded invisibility to incompatible clients
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[15:08:26] <Ge0rG> And because it will be awesome to have to change all the implementations that filter out body-less messages as "unimportant".
[15:09:08] <SamWhited> yah, just removing those lines from message attatching seems reasonable
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[20:09:08] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:09:29] *** jubalh has left the room
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[20:10:32] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:10:37] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:10:55] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:11:28] *** McKael shows as "online"
[20:11:52] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:18:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[20:26:53] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:29:23] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:31:08] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[20:31:11] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[20:31:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:32:11] *** peter shows as "online"
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[20:35:31] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:36:46] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:40:41] *** jcbrand has left the room
[20:41:44] *** McKael shows as "online"
[20:42:21] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[20:42:42] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:42:44] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:44:17] *** edhelas has left the room
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[20:46:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:46:34] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[20:49:13] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[20:54:31] *** peter shows as "online"
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[20:54:40] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:57:32] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:01:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:03:53] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[21:04:57] *** Tobias has left the room
[21:08:00] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:08:29] *** edhelas has left the room
[21:08:56] *** edhelas shows as "online"
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[21:09:10] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:09:33] <edhelas> muc.xmpp.org doesn't supports mam:1/mam:2 yet ?
[21:09:40] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:09:43] <MattJ> No
[21:10:03] <Zash> -version xmpp.org
[21:10:07] <Bunneh> Zash: xmpp.org is running Prosody version 0.9.12 on Linux
[21:12:01] *** edhelas has left the room
[21:13:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[21:16:53] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:22:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[21:24:10] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:29:40] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[21:29:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:31:26] <moparisthebest> -version muc.xmpp.org
[21:31:26] <Bunneh> moparisthebest: muc.xmpp.org doesn't reply to version requests
[21:34:06] <edhelas> yeah that seems to be the problem
[21:34:15] <edhelas> I don't see caps for muc.xmpp.org in my db
[21:35:17] <moparisthebest> Yea so we don't actually know what it's running :)
[21:36:26] <Zash> <identity type='text' name='Prosody Chatrooms' category='conference'/>
[21:36:36] <Zash> Impossible to know
[21:38:31] <mathieui> total mystery
[21:39:07] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:39:10] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[21:43:34] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:43:42] *** fp-tester has left the room
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[21:49:36] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
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[21:54:51] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:01:10] *** Alex has left the room
[22:03:10] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[22:04:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[22:09:07] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:09:08] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:17:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:17:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:19:21] *** Guus has left the room
[22:22:11] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:23:43] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:24:15] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:24:21] *** peter has left the room
[22:28:00] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:28:01] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:29:41] *** blabla has left the room
[22:29:46] *** blabla has joined the room
[22:31:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:35:34] *** Guus has left the room
[22:37:13] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:37:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:37:45] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:38:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:42:01] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:45:29] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:45:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:45:48] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:45:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[22:47:16] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:47:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:52:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:52:09] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:53:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:53:49] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:54:01] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:54:54] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[22:59:05] *** Guus has left the room
[22:59:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:59:13] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:59:37] *** peter has joined the room
[23:00:23] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:14:17] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:14:21] *** peter has left the room
[23:17:09] <moparisthebest> It could be lying
[23:17:20] <moparisthebest> Never trust a remote entity
[23:35:18] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:38:20] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:44:12] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
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[23:49:38] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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