Saturday, September 23, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:34:23] <Guus> Ge0rG: sorry to disappoint you. 😉
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[08:05:15] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I also strongly had the impression that the Opportunistic TLS term is wrong
[08:05:25] <jonasw> but then I looked at wikipedia, and following the wikipedia definition it seems to be right
[08:05:32] <jonasw> it just isn’t what it is used for everywhere else, from my perception
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[08:15:06] <Kev> Opportunistic TLS is using TLS whenever it's available, and not caring about authentication.
[08:15:17] <jonasw> pretty much, yes
[08:15:22] <jonasw> at least that’s my understanding of it
[08:15:34] <jonasw> which is why I think that term is massively incorrect and misleading for XMPP.
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[08:16:56] <Guus> "Opportunistic TLS (Transport Layer Security) refers to extensions in plain text communication protocols, which offer a way to upgrade a plain text connection to an encrypted (TLS or SSL) connection instead of using a separate port for encrypted communication. Several protocols use a command named "STARTTLS" for this purpose. "
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[08:17:33] <jonasw> Guus, that’s the wikipedia definition, I don’t think wikipedia is necessarily right in those matters.
[08:17:57] <jonasw> I’ve been in the SMTP community for quite some time, and there the term Opportunistic TLS definitely refers to "we just do STARTTLS if available and don’t care about authn"
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[08:18:38] <Guus> Please fix Wikipedia then. :)
[08:20:56] <Guus> on a completely different subject: our domain is having trouble doing s2s to both jabber.org as well as xmpp.org
[08:21:02] <Guus> did something chagne there/
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[08:21:10] <Guus> can someone help me debug on that end what's going on?
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[09:21:09] <Flow> What Kev said plus that you continue without TLS in case it's not available (at least that's my understanding)
[09:21:36] <jonasw> Flow, indeed
[09:21:57] <Flow> So a xmpp client library set to "TLS required" performing STARTTLS successfully would not be "Opportunistic TLS"
[09:22:12] <jonasw> indeed
[09:22:55] <Flow> I don't that's bike shedding, after all, there seems to be some confusion about what it is
[09:23:07] <jonasw> I agree
[09:24:45] <Flow> jonasw: :)
[09:26:02] <jonasw> and given what Opportunistic TLS means in e.g. SMTP context, I think it would be *very* bad to have that tacked on XMPP
[09:26:28] <Flow> and somebody should clarify it on wikipedia
[09:26:32] <jonasw> agreed
[09:26:40] <jonasw> hard to find reliable sources though
[09:26:54] <Flow> well psa gave some references to RFCs
[09:27:14] <Flow> I'd possibly do some wikipedia editing myself
[09:27:33] <Flow> but after i've mowed the lawn
[09:27:45] <jonasw> > Most SMTP clients will then send the email and possibly passwords in plain text, often with no notification to the user. In particular, many SMTP connections occur between mail servers, where user notification is not practical.
[09:27:57] <jonasw> that sentence from the article is also highly misleading
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[15:16:45] <moparisthebest> I think we keep calling it STARTLS and just explicitly link to that part of the xmpp rfc
[15:17:06] <moparisthebest> That seems like it would prevent any confusion?
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[15:20:44] <moparisthebest> https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html#tls
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[15:21:16] <moparisthebest> Any Dev reading xep368 will know that and it uses STARTLS
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[15:25:15] <Flow> moparisthebest: did you just use the old RFC on purpose?
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[17:18:48] <tux> Maybe servers should deliver old RFCs only after filling out at least two paragraphs on why the download is necessary. Or a quiz about relevant content of the updating RFC.
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[17:25:37] <moparisthebest> Flow: no just first search result :)
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[18:36:43] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[18:54:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:03:18] *** McKael shows as "online"
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[19:09:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:17:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:19:06] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[19:19:46] *** winfried shows as "online"
[19:20:03] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:20:05] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[19:33:03] *** Vaulor shows as "online"
[19:33:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:35:46] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:36:09] *** winfried has left the room
[19:36:14] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[19:44:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:45:11] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[19:45:46] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:46:09] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:46:36] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:47:32] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[19:47:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:49:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[19:51:01] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:51:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:53:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:53:46] *** Vaulor shows as "away" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[19:55:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:55:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:57:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[19:58:46] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:59:44] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:00:48] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[20:03:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:04:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:04:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:06:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:08:56] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:10:25] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:13:01] *** jere has left the room
[20:13:43] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:13:46] *** Vaulor shows as "xa" and his status message is "Hace un rato que no estoy... (mensaje automático predefinido)"
[20:13:46] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[20:13:52] *** Vaulor has left the room
[20:13:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:15:38] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:16:09] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[20:16:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:19:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:19:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[20:31:55] *** daniel has left the room
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[20:33:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:34:02] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:34:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:34:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:34:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:35:03] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:36:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:36:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[20:36:47] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:38:08] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:39:06] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:41:57] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:44:13] *** Flow has left the room
[20:44:19] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[20:46:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:47:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:47:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:49:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:49:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:49:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:52:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:53:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:53:30] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:54:41] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:55:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:57:41] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:58:41] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:03:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:03:55] *** sonny has joined the room
[21:04:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:04:26] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[21:04:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:05:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:07:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:08:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:08:23] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[21:08:30] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:11:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:11:26] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[21:11:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:13:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:14:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:14:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[21:19:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:19:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:19:55] *** daniel has left the room
[21:20:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[21:25:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:25:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:29:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[21:34:10] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:34:20] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:35:38] *** winfried shows as "online"
[21:35:47] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:35:51] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:36:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:36:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:37:07] *** McKael shows as "online"
[21:39:15] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:40:12] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[21:43:44] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:44:04] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:45:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:45:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:48:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:48:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:49:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:49:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:49:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:50:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:51:34] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[21:53:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:53:15] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:54:00] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:54:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:54:21] *** jere has joined the room
[21:54:22] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:54:22] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:55:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:56:42] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:59:08] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:59:13] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:59:27] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:59:44] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:01:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:01:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:04:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:04:34] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:05:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:05:14] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:06:01] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:06:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:08:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:11:39] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:11:58] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:11:58] *** McKael has left the room
[22:14:08] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:14:10] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:15:28] *** daniel has left the room
[22:15:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:15:38] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:19:02] *** jere has left the room
[22:19:19] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:19:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:19:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:19:46] *** jere has joined the room
[22:19:49] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[22:19:50] *** zinid has left the room
[22:19:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:20:26] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:20:34] *** andrey.g has left the room
[22:21:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:21:58] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:22:49] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:23:49] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:28:46] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:29:27] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:29:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:29:47] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:30:43] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:31:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:31:33] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:31:43] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:33:03] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:33:06] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:35:46] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[22:35:48] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:36:19] *** andrey.g has left the room
[22:36:48] *** fp-tester has left the room
[22:36:50] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:36:51] *** andrey.g has joined the room
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[22:37:26] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[22:37:53] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[22:38:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[22:43:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:43:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:47:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[22:50:23] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:50:38] *** winfried shows as "online"
[22:52:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:54:29] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:54:30] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:55:29] *** daniel has left the room
[22:55:36] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:00:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:01:30] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[23:03:09] *** daniel has left the room
[23:03:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:03:57] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:04:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:04:33] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:05:40] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:07:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[23:07:36] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:07:36] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:08:51] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:09:55] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:10:45] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:11:15] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:13:24] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:15:22] *** winfried shows as "online"
[23:24:30] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:24:33] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:31:13] *** goffi has left the room
[23:34:32] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:34:33] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:44:35] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:48:03] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:48:06] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:52:41] *** emxp has left the room