XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2017-09-26


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  17. moparisthebest I think the reason good ux goes against security is because those are generally different developers
  18. moparisthebest Especially for web
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  61. emxp moparisthebest: i just remember how Constanze Kurz from CCC said something like: 'we need to bring students from other disciplines in contact with IT - even so art students'
  62. jonasw FLOSS needs more designers indeed
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  66. mimi89999 👍
  67. emxp and as a tech student say so too. why am i 'locked' into a pure technological based university? so we need the other way round too
  68. edhelas yup I agree
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  72. zinid art can be learnt actually (especially graphics design, where you basically only need to pick right colors and shapes), but nobody wants to do this
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  74. jonasw I doubt that "nobody" wants to do this, there are quite a few graphic designers out there.
  75. zinid jonasw: ok, I mean a typical developer
  76. jonasw I just think it’s pointless to force yourself to do something you don’t like if you could be doing something you *do* like (and possibly even are already good at).
  77. jonasw better get an interested graphics designer involved
  78. zinid how?
  79. zinid how will s/he join xmpp?
  80. zinid via photoshop?
  81. jonasw zinid, they don’t need to join XMPP to contribute.
  82. jonasw (whatever joining XMPP means)
  83. zinid can you please describe the working flow of such designer?
  84. jonasw I have no idea of designer workflows?
  85. zinid I have :) I hired some back in the time
  86. jonasw then you can shed some light on it :)
  87. zinid what I meant is that there should be incentive for a designer: money or interest
  88. zinid since s/he's not joined XMPP (not interested) only money left
  89. Zash Everyone have their motivation sources
  90. jonasw zinid, I don’t think that "isn’t part of XMPP" (still, whatever that means) implies "not interested" for sure
  91. zinid in 15+ years of xmpp development I can barely remember as single designer
  92. jonasw it can also imply "doesn’t know the key point which leads to interest yet" or "doesn’t know about XMPP at all yet
  93. jonasw it can also imply "doesn’t know the key point which leads to interest yet" or "doesn’t know about XMPP at all yet"
  94. uc #Opensourcedesign on Freenet
  95. zinid *a
  96. jonasw zinid, that’s maybe because most of XMPP development takes place in the FLOSS community, where there are generally only few designers abound
  97. jonasw (and what doesn’t take place in FLOSS often doesn’t announce XMPP that loudly)
  98. uc Freenode**
  99. Zash Have there been any studies on the general lack of designers in FLOSS?
  100. jonasw Zash, either there is a general lack, or they are mostly horrible ;-)
  101. Zash 90% of everything is horrible
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  107. emxp jonasw, zinid: I think in first hand it is important for devs and designers to get an understand of each focuses and how they think. thus the designer and devs can adapt their work or workflows to bring them together. that why I said combine the studies or at least let them get in contact. i think both sides are interested in each other. but there is no need for each side to do others work if they dont want to. so just get an understanding. what makes good UX, what makes good security? (e.g less is probably more!) and so on. there are lots of (mainly) non tech people in the CCC for example
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  109. jonasw +1 emxp
  110. Zash eh
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  125. Ge0rG So we need to acquire some designers...
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  129. emxp actually, whats the puropose of XSF? Do you collect money, too? For example, to pay people for specific programming/design tasks?
  130. SouL I would say XSF cares about XMPP, the protocol.
  131. SouL Software is a thing for developers.
  132. zinid probably collecting money and hire designers is not that bad idea
  133. emxp SouL: maybe there should be an extended foundation or so. in principle like Google Summer of Code. but only for xmpp purposes
  134. emxp i would donate money
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  140. emxp This foundation furthermore could spend money on other things which supports xmpp too
  141. zinid emxp: I think XSF has donations already
  142. Guus exmp: The XMPP Standards Foundation (also known as the XSF and formerly the Jabber Software Foundation) is an independent, nonprofit standards development organisation whose primary mission is to define open protocols for presence, instant messaging, and real-time communication and collaboration on top of the IETF’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP).
  143. Guus copy/pasted that :)
  144. Guus as for sponsorship - that's obviously very welcome. There's a sponsorship programme defined here: https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html On top of that, we occasionally ask for sponsorship regarding individual events (mostly the XSF Summits)
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  150. zinid I think what we really need is more full-time developers, 95% of xmpp projects are maintained in spare time, most of the projects can barely survive 10-year period (I can count only a few)
  151. Guus arguably a very good way to support the XSF, besides donating money, is to be actively involved in the activities that we undertake. There's a lot of things that we do, from defining protocols, to providing internal support (to our website, this chat, preparing for conferences, etc)
  152. zinid Guus: donating to XSF will not help xmpp in my opinion
  153. Guus zinid: I don't think that's something that should be initiated by the XSF. The XSF is there to develop the protocol, not the implementations.
  154. zinid Guus: I don't say XSF should do that
  155. Guus Well, there are plenty of open source, but also commercial organisations, that do development on XMPP
  156. Guus I'm sure that many of these will gladly accept help
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  159. Guus By the way: most of the servers listed on our website are older than 10 years. There definately is a solid foundation there.
  160. MattJ Prosody is 9
  161. zinid I almost always talk about clients when I say "xmpp software" :)
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  163. MattJ Client software is harder - platforms and UIs change
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  166. zinid no surprise we have some servers with commercial support, because it's easier to build bussiness model with them
  167. MattJ All the 10-year clients around, people now call them ugly
  168. zinid MattJ: exactly
  169. Guus zinid: so, open up an IDE and start typing :)
  170. Zash Wrong shade of grey
  171. Guus there's a good deal of libraries available that you can (re)use to create new stuff
  172. Guus but you're absolutely right - we could really use more nice clients.
  173. zinid Guus: I cannot do everything myself, obviously, I'm a server dev
  174. Ge0rG I think that the XSF urgently needs to widen its scope from "protocol" to "software", so it can provide UX guidelines etc.
  175. Zash back to*
  176. Ge0rG yaxim is only eight years so.
  177. Ge0rG yaxim is only eight years old :(
  178. Guus I'm not sure if I agree, Ge0rG.
  179. Zash Recreate the Jabber Software Foundation as a separate entity
  180. Ge0rG Zash: I've been pondering about that.
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  182. Guus On first thought, I'd prefer that. Will have to give it more thought though.
  183. Ge0rG Zash: but the main issue I see is: it will be run by a subset of the same people as the XSF, and those are already short on time.
  184. emxp Guus, zinid, Ge0rG: Yes, its good that XSF is focusing on the protocol. so my suggestion was to focus with another on implementations and full time payments
  185. emxp for devs
  186. emxp or part-time in the beginning
  187. Zash Where'd the money come from?
  188. Ge0rG Besides, I'm convinced that "protocol" also includes defining certain user-facing elements. Like how to call entity addresses for that protocol.
  189. Guus emxp: again, I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea. I don't think you'd need a separate organization for that though, as existing ones will be very happy to accept your help.
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  191. zinid emxp: there is an initiative to collect money for Jingle support in conversations, it ended up with 500$ or so ;)
  192. Ge0rG emxp: you need a dozen developers and a year of time to make a well-polished XMPP client. So if you have a million dollars, let me know.
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  194. zinid nobody wants to donate
  195. Zash Sure there are people who want to donate, but you aren't going to get full time developer pay from donations
  196. zinid take a look at Matrix, they have funding problems and started fundrasing, the result is 2800$ : https://www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg
  197. zinid and Matrix is quite hyped at the moment
  198. Guus zinid: arguably, they _now_ have funding problems, because they started off as a fully funded project (which suddenly lost its sole sponsor).
  199. zinid and Matrix has 11 developers, lol :)
  200. Zash -do 2800 / 11
  201. Bunneh Zash: 254.54545454545
  202. zinid what a bunch of money!
  203. Guus zinid, what do you propose?
  204. daniel for their london office this pays for the oyster card they need to get to work
  205. zinid Guus: I would propose something if I knew, I see no solution
  206. Zash Somehow attract people willing to spend their free time on making things better.
  207. zinid or somehow attract their money
  208. MattJ Charge users $1/year for using your app
  209. zinid MattJ: that didn't work, whatsapp was still unprofitable before the acquirement :D
  210. Zash Sell your soul to Facegoogle.
  211. Zash And your users data.
  212. zinid I have neither soul nor users data :(
  213. Zash Raise money for a marketing campain in order to raise money for writing a client.
  214. Zash Marketing marketing marketing!!
  215. SouL Uh, what do you want to do with me?
  216. Guus Sell you, obviously.
  217. mathieui SouL, sell you
  218. Zash One SouL, in mint condition, do I hear any bids?
  219. SouL Nooo
  220. SouL runs away!
  221. mathieui 09:45:39 zinid> I think what we really need is more full-time developers, 95% of xmpp projects are maintained in spare time, most of the projects can barely survive 10-year period → I lightly updated the jabberfr wiki yesterday, it is full of clients dead in the last 10 years
  222. Zash Projects dying isn't necessarily a bad thing tho. Something something Darwinism.
  223. mathieui yeah
  224. mathieui but it’s bad because I’m the only one who updated the wiki after 2011
  225. mathieui so, "popular mobile clients" had J2ME and "popular clients" had coccinella
  226. Guus If we can't manage to update a wiki, I fear for development projects...
  227. mathieui Guus, that’s mostly because we had a very motivated guy doing it before then
  228. Guus Which, coincidentally, why I've started to help out with maintaining the stuff that we do have, as XSF.
  229. Guus mathieui: perhaps removing outdated data is better than keeping it unmaintained. Nothing puts people off as much as seeing information that's clearly incorrect.
  230. Guus I'm positive that things like that have a negative impact on people that consider contributing. I'm afraid we're loosing people, before they even started.
  231. Ge0rG Are the json files used for client list generation hosted on xmpp.org as well?
  232. Ge0rG We are losing people everywhere!
  233. Guus Ge0rG: referring to the software listing? Yes, used for all software
  234. Ge0rG Guus: not "used" but "hosted". The actual JSON files. So that external services could use them.
  235. Guus Ge0rG: that's my fear. The good news is that improving our data can be done by anyone. It's an easy PR away.
  236. mathieui Ge0rG, that’s why I started that
  237. mathieui that and adding conversations, chatsecure, xabber
  238. mathieui Guus*
  239. Guus Ge0rG: Ah, unsure. Well, you could always refer to the stuff in Github, but I don't think it was intended that way.
  240. Guus mathieui: thanks :)
  241. Zash Did we update the Prosody file?
  242. Guus "the Prosody file" ?
  243. Guus Prosody is listed on https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html, if that's what you mena.
  244. emxp zinid: i siggest first lets ask, how many money can we collect. and how can we spend it. what needs to happen to increase donations
  245. zinid emxp: where/whom to ask?
  246. Zash Oh, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/600d7f4d484c69ef3d631f40b7d65d9258015291
  247. emxp If XSF is okay to do task expanding the Protocol thats nice. but so far I didnt saw that they are not interestet
  248. emxp zinid: ask generally
  249. Ge0rG emxp: the XSF doesn't seem interested to do things beyond protocol development. And that's hard already.
  250. Zash > Do one thing, do it well.
  251. Zash And separation of concern.
  252. Guus especially because we're already having a hard time with that, I don't think the XSF should be taking on more.
  253. SouL Well, that would imply that XSF favours specific clients and such, if I understand correctly.
  254. Ge0rG SouL: not at all.
  255. Ge0rG There is plenty of possible improvement between "the XMPP protocol" and "Make Jabber Great Again"
  256. SouL Ge0rG, emxp would like to collect money for devs, or not?
  257. Ge0rG SouL: right, collecting money for developers would be rather hard.
  258. Guus But, again, if anyone wants to support clients: give the existing organizations your support. You really don't need the XSF for that.
  259. Ge0rG Either the XSF would create "the reference client" from that money, competing with XSF members, or it would have to devise a biased way to give money out.
  260. Ge0rG Guus: the existing client developers?
  261. MattJ XSF + reference client -> bad idea
  262. Kev Anyone + reference client -> bad idea, I think.
  263. Kev Not just the XSF.
  264. Guus Ge0rG: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
  265. Zash How long have people said "the xsf should do a reference test suite"? :)
  266. zinid reference server is a good idea! I have one to suggest :D
  267. MattJ Me too
  268. zinid 2 reference servers is even better
  269. Ge0rG Guus: I know that page. My question was, whether you imply "client devs" by "existing orgs"
  270. Ge0rG Zash: a reference test suite would actually be something where I can see the XSF paying for development.
  271. Ge0rG Except that Daniel now almost implemented one.
  272. Zash Orly?
  273. Guus Ge0rG: I'm desperately trying to avoid naming names (as I'm personally involved in one of them) - but various clients have OSS organisations behind them that would gladly accept support.
  274. zinid what will the suite test?
  275. zinid servers?
  276. zinid because I don't know how to test clients
  277. zinid do we have shitty servers? no, we have shitty clients
  278. Ge0rG Guus: I'm not asking for names, but for clarification of your statement :)
  279. Ge0rG zinid: that's a blatant lie! We have shitty servers AND shitty clients.
  280. zinid no way
  281. Ge0rG zinid: you don't happen to be Evgeny from the ML?
  282. Zash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
  283. Guus Ge0rG: find the organization of the client that you want to see improved, then support them (either by joining as a dev, a community member, or by donating resources)
  284. zinid Ge0rG: that's me yes
  285. emxp Guus, SouL, Ge0rG: Yes, XSF shouldnt do an additional task. a new foundations may collect more money, because it is maybe more obvious where the money goes. if you can see projects
  286. emxp directly
  287. Ge0rG zinid: nice to meet you, and welcome to the XSF MUCs, where all the "inactive" members hang around :D
  288. SouL :)
  289. Guus Ge0rG: It's not just the developer that needs supporting, it's the entire organization (formal or informal) around the development effort. Some of our most valuable members write no code at all.
  290. Guus (That's where my distinction between Dev and Org originates)
  291. Ge0rG Guus: that's probably true. Still, sponsoring individual devs/dev-orgs is out of scope for the XSF, and rightly so.
  292. Guus ge0rG: I agree completely. I've been stressing that the XSF does not need to be involved, but instead, people could reach out to those dev-orgs directly.
  293. zinid yes, XSF should not collect donations
  294. zinid it's pointless, they need to share them somehow between projects, that's hard
  295. Ge0rG Guus: except there are no people who want to contribute significant amounts of money.
  296. Guus Sure it should. But not to sponsor one particular implementation.
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  298. zinid Guus: and how to share between the projects? on what basis? equally?
  299. Guus Ge0rG: All I'm saying is that the XSF need not be involved if someone wants to do sponsoring of individual projects :)
  300. Guus zinid: you do not share at all. You use it for the activities that the XSF does itself.
  301. Ge0rG Guus: yes. But the more important question is: how can the XSF contribute to a future where we do have non-shitty clients and servers?
  302. zinid Guus: ah, ok
  303. Ge0rG zinid: the XSF can still pay for Summit Dinners and XMPP stickers.
  304. Ge0rG I wish we had Jabber stickers.
  305. Guus Ge0rG: facilitate development by having an up-to-date library of information (the XEPs, the Wiki, the webpage) and provide avenues for discussion (like this MUC - that still could use a web frontend - the mailinglists, and perhaps others).
  306. Ge0rG a web frontend for this MUC would require developing a web client.
  307. zinid regarding jabber tickers, isn't this XSF responsibility?
  308. zinid *stickers
  309. Guus Ge0rG: it further can host or be present at gatherings (like FOSDEM) and spread the love. Have meetings with stakeholders (even informal ones, like the Summit Dinner).
  310. zinid how to post stickers?
  311. Guus yes, the SCAM workgroup has stickers and leaflets and stuff, to be used in XSF activies like I described above.
  312. Ge0rG Guus: the XSF is doing that for 15 years, and we still have shitty clients and servers ;)
  313. Guus SCAM will (and has) happily send those out to people that are hosting such events.
  314. Guus Ge0rG: There is much that the XSF can (and is in process of) improve: the XEPs were completely outdating up until recently, the Obsevatory is still gone, the wiki and webpage have shown outdated information for a very long time, etc etc.
  315. Guus Ge0rG: getting that in order won't magically fix things, but it will surely facilitate - and it is stuff that we can do _now_, without needing to discuss what other activities we might want to spin up.
  316. Guus We're already stretched - adding more work won't improve things.
  317. Ge0rG Guus: indeed, you are right.
  318. Guus as a side-note: perhaps we should rename the 'experimental' status of a XEP. One of the recurring criticisms that I read is "Pretty-standard-feature XYZ has a XEP that is only "experimental"!
  319. SouL Yes, that's true.
  320. Guus it's just window dressing, but sometimes, that makes a difference.
  321. Ge0rG "draft" isn't much better either.
  322. Ge0rG Some XEPs live their whole life in "draft"
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  324. mathieui Guus, what we need to do is either make the XEP status reflect real world perception, or add another status that does
  325. mathieui Ge0rG, did I mention that 0059 is still draft?
  326. Guus mathieui: I agree.
  327. Ge0rG 0045 is fifteen years now, and still in Draft.
  328. Ge0rG There are probably XEP-0045 implementing developers younger than that.
  329. Flow That's why I think we should find a better name for Draft before thinking about what to do with experimental
  330. Zash "Work in progress", "Almost done", "Done" ? :)
  331. Ge0rG "Broken", "Stale" and "Rusty".
  332. Flow Zash: Doesn't actually sound that bad
  333. Ge0rG Zash: replace the last one with "Carved in Stone"
  334. Zash FINAL wait that's what it's called
  335. MattJ Skip that, jump to "Obsolete"
  336. Zash Hah
  337. Zash "Living document" -> "Dead document"
  338. MattJ +1
  339. MattJ Welcome to the internet
  340. Zash "Request For Comments"
  341. zinid what I personally would like to see is how many implementations support the XEP, and probably range the XEPs in this order
  342. zinid this is only what makes sense, because even Final can be implemented nowhere
  343. Zash zinid: Define support. Which leads back to the whole test suite thing.
  344. zinid Zash: claiming support is ok, even partial
  345. Zash Pretty sure Final requires two implementation.
  346. Zash s
  347. Ge0rG Zash: also goat blood sacrifices
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  349. Zash Or was it Draft?
  350. Zash I forget
  351. zinid https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0009.html
  352. Guus has left
  353. zinid this is final
  354. zinid where is it implemented?
  355. Zash Version 2.0 (2002-12-09) Per a vote of the Jabber Council, changed status to Final. (psa)
  356. SouL Could 'Subject to changes' be used for 'experimental', for example?
  357. SouL Or we should use just a word?
  358. zinid SouL: I think every XEP should be "subject to changes", we have namespace bumps
  359. zinid the only difference is probability
  360. zinid so "in development" and "more or less stable" is enough
  361. zinid dunno why there so many gradations
  362. Zash Experimental = "In active development"
  363. zinid still says nothing for me, I need to see where it's implemented
  364. Zash When it stops being in *active* development it goes into deferred
  365. Zash Similar to how IETF drafts expire after some months.
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  367. Zash Should the XSF try to keep track of implementation status?
  368. zinid why not?
  369. zinid I don't think this is a lot of work
  370. zinid only creating some form
  371. zinid where everyone can submit
  372. Zash Periodic calls for experience?
  373. zinid no matter, something that would work without tons of pain
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  375. Ge0rG What about a "compliance badge" that can be assigned after completing the compliance suite.
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  377. Zash Maybe when things go deferred, send out a survey thing asking if anyone has been working on an implementation?
  378. Ge0rG This client fulfills [Jabber Gold Premium]
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  381. Guus I've just posted on standards@ about the XEP status name change. I'm interested to see what others think of this
  382. Guus with that, I'm disappearing into the world of managers, deadlines and stale coffee.
  383. MattJ Don't do it!
  384. zinid Zash: "send out a survey" <-- where to send it?
  385. Ge0rG Mandatory JIDs everywhere!
  386. Zash The standards list
  387. zinid I think not so many people are in active conversation with XSF (list, chatroom, etc)
  388. zinid I almost never see Gajim devs in the list
  389. zinid maybe they are here?
  390. Zash Actually, I think the core of the proposal is to send out a call for experience along with the deferred message.
  391. zinid nah, I was suggesting to track the number of implementation right in front of XEP title or so
  392. Ge0rG Sounds like a task for a web service.
  393. Zash Figuring out if a XEP became inactive because everyone already implemented it or because nobody implemented it would probably be good.
  394. Ge0rG Zash: isn't that what "Final" vs. "Obsolete" is for?
  395. Zash Ge0rG: It's "Which direction should this Experimental XEP go?"
  396. goffi didn't follow the whole discussion, but about deferred, we may have nothing to add to a XEP, but waiting for implementation or something else before asking for move to draft. It would be nice to be able to do an update without modification, just to show it's not abandonned at all.
  397. zinid Ge0rG: a really simple submitting form is enough, which will put numbers in the database for displaying, I don't think this is brutally hard
  398. Zash There exists survey tools, if someone wants to automate it that way.
  399. Ge0rG zinid: web forms will be immediately overrun by spammers.
  400. zinid well, using existing tools is preferable of course
  401. Guus has left
  402. zinid sigh
  403. zinid how others do this, cannot imagine
  404. Wiktor for the record, tracking progress for OMEMO is one github repository: https://omemo.top/
  405. Zash Could be as simple as adding "Have you implemented this? Send comments plz." on https://github.com/xsf/xsf-tools/blob/7628fe8610e3d7f2247e5e7634bbf6c754c2d033/xeputils/mail.py#L114-L125
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  414. mathieui zinid, gajim devs are not in there, no
  415. zinid that's pitty because this is one of the most popular desktop client (although not everyone like it)
  416. zinid and we don't hear their opinion
  417. Guus so, get them in here :)
  418. goffi mathieui: Asterix is writing from time to time on @standard
  419. zinid we cannot force every developer joining this room or the list
  420. Guus Make them an offer they cannot refuse ;)
  421. mathieui the issue with gajim devs is that they really are busy (it’s mostly lovetox these days, with asterix showing up from time to time)
  422. zinid what I want to say is that we shouldn't expect lots of responses from developers and drawing conclusions based on received responses
  423. Ge0rG zinid: do you have a better proposal?
  424. zinid Ge0rG: tracking existing implementations is a good start in making some decision (such as deferring for example)
  425. edhelas maybe we could first track what XEPs are implemented in which clients
  426. Ge0rG zinid: but how?
  427. edhelas it's not that hard https://nl.movim.eu/?about#caps_widget_tab
  428. zinid Ge0rG: are we going circles? :) submitting form?
  429. zinid the point is everyone can submit
  430. zinid so even if developers are busy their users can submit
  431. zinid another advantage is of course everyone can decide about XEP popularity by implementations number
  432. zinid instead of experimental/draft/etc nonsense
  433. Zash Everyone implementing something doesn't make it good.
  434. Zash Good things don't usually win popularity contests in my experience.
  435. goffi has left
  436. zinid really? in the context of standards?
  437. zinid which means the standard is crap? :)
  438. zinid do you remember such situation in xmpp?
  439. mathieui edhelas, caps widget is not enough
  440. Zash Good enough combined with timeing on the other hand.
  441. Zash Or marketing.
  442. edhelas the issue is, more than asking dev to be aware of new XEPs, is also to push them to deprecate or remove old ones
  443. edhelas mam:tmp, vcard_temp, Private XML…
  444. Zash vcard-temp and private xml are good enough, but not really that good
  445. Zash Multiple versions of the same XEP is a somewhat different issue.
  446. lumi has joined
  447. jonasw back
  448. jonasw goffi, if a XEP doesn’t have implementations, moving it to Deferred is a sane thing. There must be something wrong with it: either it has issues deterring implementors or it is not needed at all. Void updates are not going to make any of this go away.
  449. jonasw zinid, if users submit on behalf of their software, we’ll be getting incomplete and inaccurate data, that’s worse than no data.
  450. jonasw (e.g. "does this client support Jingle File Transfer?" "well yes of course, I can send files", but in fact the file transfer is using HTTP Upload)
  451. zinid jonasw: why would we have inaccurate data?
  452. zinid I don't say it would be 100% accurate
  453. Ge0rG zinid: because users are clueless.
  454. jonasw what Ge0rG says
  455. Ge0rG zinid: it would be 40% accurate and there would be multiple submissions.
  456. zinid Ge0rG: a clueless user who knows what xsf and xep is?
  457. Zash https://www.zash.se/xmpp-clients.html inaccurate!
  458. jonasw zinid, sure
  459. Ge0rG User often already fail at spelling a client name correctly.
  460. daniel has left
  461. Zash If clients put XEPs into their marketing, then users will be somewhat aware of them.
  462. jonasw Guus, regarding donating money to client organizations: there are enough clients out there which do not have an umbrella organization
  463. zinid then what makes you think a developer is responding on your last calls?
  464. jonasw some of which are doing great work in the UX department (I heard dino is nice)
  465. jonasw accepting donations is tricky
  466. Ge0rG I'm working on a system for people with technical background, and they fail to properly spell their own name.
  467. zinid maybe that's a clueless user responding
  468. jonasw zinid, you got me thinking that we sohlud probably issue CFE and LC to the developers list too
  469. zinid jonasw: you need to find developers there first :)
  470. Ge0rG zinid: I think you just volunteered to create a web form, collect data from users, developers or goats, and to process it in a way that's suitable and useful to the XSF, thanks!
  471. jonasw khekhe
  472. zinid Ge0rG: sure, and you go develop ejabberd
  473. mathieui fair trade
  474. jonasw tough choice
  475. jonasw erlang vs. web development
  476. goffi jonasw: deferred != no implementation. I'm author of XEP-0355 and XEP-0356, they have 2 implementations (at least), and just didn't need to update them
  477. Ge0rG zinid: sorry, I've got my own client to develop, and I'm submitting issues for a bunch of others.
  478. goffi and they are deferred
  479. goffi anyway I now need to update them so it's not a big deal.
  480. jonasw goffi, if there are two implementations, you should ask for advancement to Draft.
  481. goffi jonasw: now, because I need more tests
  482. goffi too early for that
  483. Ge0rG zinid: but while you are here, you can solve my ejabber MUC bug: all MSN clients are kicked when one of the MSN clients sends an error to the MUC.
  484. goffi s/now/no/
  485. Guus jonasw: clients without organiations typically have one developer. Donating then often is done in the form of temporary commisions ("can I hire you to build this-and-this in the client"). Nothing dangerous about that.
  486. jonasw Guus, it is massively tricky if you are employed elsewhere
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  488. jonasw I am kind-of glad that we didn’t get into the Prototype Fund, because I didn’t want the headache of coordinating with my employer and insurance etc.
  489. jonasw (maybe that’s only a german thing that these things are complicated)
  490. zinid Ge0rG: I cannot drop my tasks and fix your issue, create a github issue maybe? if there is a bug it will be fixed quite fast
  491. Ge0rG zinid: I'm not the server operator, so I don't have logs.
  492. Guus jonas: true, that can be tricky. For me personally, it's not been a problem, as when I was employed, I've always made sure to have a clause in my contract that allowed for it. Now that I'm self-employed, things are even easier. But yes, it does require some planning.
  493. jonasw Guus, I don’t even know how such a clause would need to look like, really.
  494. Guus perhaps we could facilitate that planning in some way, shape, or form - simply by letting people interested get in contact with people with experience.
  495. zinid Ge0rG: I can only say I will check if I don't forget (like always)
  496. Ge0rG zinid: also you seem to have enough time to make proposals here and on standards@ .P
  497. zinid Ge0rG: nice try :)
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  499. Ge0rG zinid: you know, I've once waited multiple years on an ejabberd ticket. Then I gave up and switched to prosody.
  500. Guus jonasw: from exprience, every employment contract that I signed (which have been 4) had a non-compete. When discussing the contract, I'd mention: "but i do work on ... which I'd like to continue doing" after which we had some back-and-forth, and a clause was added.
  501. Guus I might've been lucky, unsure, but it always worked out.
  502. zinid Ge0rG: and now waiting years on prosody tickets, ok
  503. Guus (and it has the added bonus of having HR work out the details of the clause :P )
  504. jonasw Guus, right, will take that into account when I get my employment contract soon-ish
  505. mathieui Guus, my employment contract has a "all your personal work belong to us, even outside of work time", and I ignore it because it’s illegal, but meh
  506. jonasw mathieui, wtf
  507. SouL I thought they would do that only in the USA
  508. Ge0rG zinid: EJAB-532 took four years for a community workaround. I've got two more years to go with prosody before reaching that timeout.
  509. Guus mathieui: I don't recommend knowingly accept a contract and disobey it, even if it's an invalid contract.
  510. Ge0rG Guus: sometimes that's better than not having an income.
  511. Guus i've always had my feedback on a contract draft addressed by HR - but again, that might be lucky.
  512. zinid Ge0rG: so what is your conclusion? every ticket takes years to resolve? this is not true of course, you can check dynamics on github
  513. Guus Ge0rG: I was assuming that it wasn't even discussed before signing it.
  514. lumi has left
  515. Guus Ge0rG: if it *was* discussed (but still disallowed), then I'd more so advice against breaking it!
  516. Ge0rG Guus: I've had a talk to my now-boss regarding illegal parts of the contract, and he said "we've got that in all contracts, we won't make an exception", so I shrugged it off.
  517. Guus Ge0rG: I might have been lucky with my employers then. Might be a cultural thingy difference between the types of organisations we work for.
  518. daniel And this is what happens if you don't have unions
  519. jjrh has left
  520. jonasw daniel, does conversations.im already have a union? :)
  521. Guus the boss wouldn't allow it! ;)
  522. Guus ducks, runs
  523. Ge0rG daniel: don't go Set Theory on us!
  524. mimi89999 What?
  525. jjrh has joined
  526. Ge0rG unions, intersections, etc.
  527. jonasw now we’re at traffic managment!
  528. mathieui bangs the on-topic gavel
  529. jonasw moves out to xmpp@
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  533. Guus who can give SCAM-wg access to the XSF twitter account?
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  535. goffi mathieui: for my last job in France, I've made the company bosses sign a paper saying they knew that I was working on my project on my free time, and wouldn't claim any right on it.
  536. goffi mathieui: anyway, I don't think they have any right on what you're doing on your freetime, whatever the contract is saying (but I'm not a lawyer of course)
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  548. pep. Zash> If clients put XEPs into their marketing, then users will be somewhat aware of them. < I'm thinking more and more users shouldn't be aware of the impl. details (i.e., XMPP). But maybe it was sarcastic and I didn't catch it
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  562. zinid pep.: true
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  564. edhelas well depends to who you're doing "marketing"
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  566. edhelas when I'm doing release notes I can go into lots of XMPP details but I prefer most of the time to stay with "upload files feature" with a reference to the XEP than explaining the whole stack
  567. pep. edhelas, sure
  568. Zash Go to various clients web pages, search for XEP, count matches.
  569. pep. I'm not talking about devs, nor poezio (console client) users
  570. Ge0rG I think there was recently a proposal for a formal client description language, including XEPs.
  571. jonasw indeed
  572. jonasw that’d also work for gathering implementation stats by the way
  573. daniel has left
  574. edhelas jonasw are you talking about https://github.com/movim/moxl#xmpp-support or https://github.com/dino/dino/wiki/Supported-XEPs ?
  575. daniel has left
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  577. jonasw neither I think
  578. jonasw let me get you a link
  579. jonasw edhelas, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-August/033123.html
  580. Alex has joined
  581. edhelas okay :)
  582. daniel has left
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  584. jonasw goffi, care to reply to daves email on standards@ with your example?
  585. jonasw I think it’s relevant to the discussion
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  593. goffi jonasw: sure
  594. dwd goffi, '355/356? If they "don't need updating", then they're surely ready for advancement?
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  596. mathieui dwd, "I now need to update them"
  597. goffi dwd: I have now updates to put. The thing it take time to have implementation, and it take time to implementation to mature. For instance in the case of 355 I've realized that disco items were not handled correctly in my Pubsub service, and this need a slight change in the XEP. I'm using this Pubsub service with XEP-0355 for more than one year, but I've just realized this was missing a couple of weeks ago, and I wanted to test implementation before modifying the XEP.
  598. dwd Either the XEP *is* expected to change in an unstable manner, or else it's ready for advancement. If it's expected to change in an unstable manner but isn't being actively edited, then it gets deferred after a year. Which part of this are you objecting to?
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  602. goffi dwd: I'm not objecting to anything, I just say that the XEPs are deferred but not abandonned, just on hold. I'm writing an email on standard@ to explain that.
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  648. SamWhited > I don't think this is a lot of work Yes it is. No matter what the thing is, if someone says those words they're wrong or they would have done it already.
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  655. dwd SamWhited, I don't even know what you['re quoting, and I agree.
  656. SamWhited dwd: Yah, those words were said earlier (about something that I suspect editors would end up having to do).
  657. SamWhited It made me cringe. I still think our process is too complicated and that we've already forgotten about it again because we have new editors that are rosie eyed and not burnt out yet so work is getting done and we'll ignore the problem until they get burnt out and we get new editors again.
  658. SamWhited But it applies in general too.
  659. daniel has left
  660. dwd SamWhited, I think our process has acrued a lot of cruft and assumptions and special cases that it shouldn't have (and isn't even documented to have).
  661. SamWhited dwd: Indeed, it needs some love.
  662. Guus has left
  663. dwd SamWhited, I think understanding what it was meant to be would be useful. The fact people think we need a stage before Experimental suggests to me that it's very poorly understood.
  664. lskdjf has left
  665. SamWhited dwd: I agree
  666. jonasw dwd, the question is whether that lack of understanding comes from lack of documentation, lack of active education or something else
  667. jonasw in any case, if newcomers or people taking only a quick look don’t understand it, it’s a PR problem we should fix. and that often has to do with naming
  668. dwd jonasw, I don't think it's well documented, and I don't think people read that document very closely. In addition, this problem has become acute because we've lost a chunk of our institutional knowledge - lots of long-term (ie, decades not months) community people have drifted away over the past year or two.
  669. dwd jonasw, There's other problems with our process too, like no (real) IPR policy, and no appeals process. Both block us from being "Open Standards" in the openstand.org sense.
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  674. SamWhited Actually, I agree and disagree. I agree that "draft" is poorly misunderstood and think that we should rename it (it doesn't "sound like" the name implies "you should implement this, it's done"). I think experimental is fine and people probably do understand it (it's experimental and you should only implement it if you're comfortable implementing things that might change). The problem with experimental isn't one of naming, it's that we leave things in experimental too long.
  675. Guus has left
  676. Kev "it's experimental and you should only implement it if you're comfortable implementing things that might change" The same is true of Draft - they *might* change, we just try not to.
  677. Kev (Actually, that's not true, we try not to in ways that are backward incompatible)
  678. dwd SamWhited, I agree with you. But that doesn't explain people who want us to have a stage before Experimental, or who want XEPs to meet certain quality gates before Experimental, and so on.
  679. SamWhited s/that might/that are likely to/
  680. SamWhited dwd: Ah yah, fair. I do think that's misguided. I do think a basic quality gate is fine though, it should at least be possible for me to implement it before it goes to experimental.
  681. dwd Kev, We generally don't change Experimental in ways that aren't backwards compatible - we're just (more) open to abandoning the namespace and minting a new one with namespace versioning.
  682. Kev I think 'Not obviously stupid and not duplicating existing stuff with no clear differentiator' is the check I used to do for +1ing Experimental.
  683. vanitasvitae has joined
  684. Kev dwd: Changing the required namespace is about as backwards incompatible as you can get.
  685. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  686. Kev When talking about compatibility of the document, not of a particular namespace within it.
  687. Ge0rG has left
  688. dwd Kev, Well, sorta. The old namespace still works, nothing is broken. But yes, it's a clean break rather than maintaining interop.
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  696. SamWhited Added a card for board to discuss the rename.
  697. SamWhited And one on council to make a recommendation.
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  700. Guus renaming draft to stable and striving to not keep things in 'experimental' for to long would be big wins, I think.
  701. jonasw I agree
  702. Guus if, on top of that, we can apply structural simplifications to the entire process, even better. Suggestions?
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  705. jonasw I’m currently fine with the XEP editing process, mostly because I automated the parts which can be automated (and which I had contact with, there’s some stuff I haven’t done yet, like Last Call)
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  707. Guus jonasw: but you fall in Sams 'new-and-not-yet-burned-out' category :)
  708. jonasw maybe
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  710. jonasw the level of automation helps against burning out though
  711. jonasw needs moar autmoation though
  712. Zash Always moar automation
  713. jonasw I need to figure out how to make a github bot which can post metadata of all touched XEPs in a PR
  714. Guus absolutely, but automation needs maintenance too.
  715. jonasw it is annoying to have to look up the status and authors of a XEP manually inside a diff
  716. Guus I'm heading out again, but I'd be very interested in hearing practical improvements that we can make to the process.
  717. jonasw something which detects when a namespace bump must happen would be amazing
  718. jonasw but I doubt that’s possible
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  721. jonasw (maybe something which warns when RFC 2119 words are touched)
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  723. Kev Which doesn't imply that it needs a namespace bump.
  724. jonasw I know
  725. jjrh has left
  726. jonasw but it’s still something good to see quickly when processing a PR
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  728. jonasw I’m bad at reading diffs
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  731. Zash jonasw: Any diffs or XEP XML diffs in particular?
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  734. jonasw Zash, XEP diffs are especially bad because of long lines
  735. SamWhited I can read diffs fine. I can barely read XEP XML when it's not a diff.
  736. jonasw or alternatively, because of line-broken text
  737. Zash Anyone wanna continue my work on turning xeps into text/markdown for simpler diffs?
  738. Alex has joined
  739. jonasw Zash, dump the code somewhere, I may take a look
  740. jonasw doesn’t help much when viewing diffs on the repository online though
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  742. SamWhited Jokes aside, as much as I like the idea I don't think we need more tooling, more things to maintain, more stuff to break, or more things you have to know about and learn to use.
  743. SamWhited Which is a long way of saying what jonasw just said
  744. jonasw blinks
  745. jonasw I’m not sure how I said that
  746. SamWhited > doesn’t help much when viewing diffs on the repository online though
  747. jonasw ah
  748. jonasw well, actually, in the back of my head I mentally added it to the list to integrate in a possible github app for which I have an idea
  749. jonasw I need to take a look at the effort involved. Something which is geared towards XEP PRs and can do a great deal of the initial triaging process automatically and/or simplify the triaging by putting all relevant information in once place would be amazing.
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  751. Zash jonasw: https://gist.github.com/Zash/372591d4c61b6af70d810a78bd1af12d
  752. jonasw Zash, can you dump a quick list of todos below that?
  753. Zash jonasw: I think the main blocker for me is that I don't know how to proceed, or what to do with it.
  754. jonasw from what I can tell it converts xep-xml to markdown, right?
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  758. Zash The Lua thing does that, yes. One shell script to normalize its input and one that picks two versions of a file out of git and compares them with the previous scripts.
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  760. Guus SamWhited, so what _does_ help?
  761. SamWhited Guus: What does what help?
  762. Guus You earlier referred to a benefit of making 'the process' less complex. I agree with pretty much everything that you wrote, but I'm still not sure what a pragmatic improvement would be.
  763. SamWhited Guus: I wrote a long email about this actually, I will forward it to you if I can find it. There's also a trello where I put a few of the potential improvements
  764. SamWhited Some of them have been done, it's definitely a bit nicer now
  765. Guus if there are sensible improvements left, by all means, lets implement them.
  766. Ge0rG has left
  767. Guus let's put things on the radar of those that are to decide on things.
  768. SamWhited The only two things left that I think we could reasonably do are automating email (sounds like jonasw is working on that a bit, we'd just have to integrate it with the build) and automating archival of XEPs as part of the build (I still have no idea if we have an attic or how it works in the new docker land, so if that still needs to be fixed it might end up being a lot more work)
  769. Guus ah, okay, that's automation. I though you were referring to procedural changes (eg: make XEP-0001 less complex, or something in that nature).
  770. Zash A thing that I've wondered about is, is there a good way to XEP versions to commits?
  771. lskdjf has left
  772. SamWhited Oh I see, sorry
  773. Zash A thing that I've wondered about is, is there a good way to map* XEP versions to commits?
  774. Guus not to say that the automation bit wouldn't be wildly helpful.
  775. SamWhited Zash: not really; I was going to suggest some git foo, but apparently some XEPs have multiple revisions with the same version or where a version ended up going backwards somehow.
  776. Valerian has left
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  778. SamWhited So maybe we need to improve CI as well
  779. Guus SamWhited: maybe it's worth manually revamping those XEPs, for the greater good?
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  782. SamWhited Guus: Yah, I'll do it for the one I noticed and add a task to add a CI step to find any others (and then fix those if there are any more)
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  787. jonasw SamWhited, yes, there’s a workin gattic
  788. jonasw SamWhited, yes, there’s a working attic
  789. jonasw I forgot to mention that there’s a script to copy changed XEPs into the attic, again based on xeplist.xml
  790. Guus awesome! So only the email bit remains an issue for now?
  791. jonasw not really
  792. jonasw I just want to test the tooling a bit more on real-world cases
  793. jonasw then it can easily be integrated into the deploy step on the server
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  795. jonasw at least I think I fulfilled the wishlist I was given by Kev to make that happen easily
  796. Guus so, you're saying that both issues are well under way to being fixed?
  797. jonasw indeed
  798. SamWhited Fantastic :)
  799. Guus more awesome!
  800. Guus Sam, I think you need to come up with a new list of things that aught to be improved :)
  801. Guus I'm going to pick up the kids
  802. Guus ttyl
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  823. zinid Ge0rG: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/e1efd291568aae29ac06f507c8b0bbf60b65d91a
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  830. zinid Ge0rG: there is another MSN-related bug reported by edhelas, hehe: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2007
  831. edhelas I'm keeping the ejabberd team busy these days
  832. zinid :D
  833. zinid edhelas: your bug is surprisingly harder to fix, unlike Ge0rG's one
  834. zinid due to shitty code of mod_muc
  835. edhelas :p
  836. Ge0rG zinid: thanks very much.
  837. Ge0rG Holger: time to git-pull conversations.im! ;) ^ https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/e1efd291568aae29ac06f507c8b0bbf60b65d91a
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  839. zinid Ge0rG: Holger is working on this
  840. zinid he's busy porting his patches to this new ejabberd version (17.x is a lot different)
  841. edhelas zinid I never report easy bugs, I prefer the tricky ones :p
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  866. mimi89999 zinid: What else than the pubsub patch?
  867. zinid mimi89999: are you about Holger? Stuff regarding registration and so on
  868. mimi89999 Ah, the things really specific to conversations.im
  869. zinid yep
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  916. Tobias https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
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  918. jonasw hm
  919. jonasw nice, but not really applicable to XMPP, is it?
  920. jonasw you’d still need to figure out which server to ask and you’d still need some directory trusted for mapping some_identifier -> JID
  921. Holger Oh yay, zinid is the best.
  922. Holger mimi89999: Yes conversations.im-specific things ... and dirty hacks :-)
  923. SouL We all love dirty hacks.
  924. pep. No we don't, but they stick around :(
  925. pep. No we don't, and they stick around :(
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