Wednesday, September 27, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
September
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
 
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:14:57] *** Tobias has left the room
[00:17:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[00:17:22] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[00:19:17] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[00:19:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[00:25:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[00:25:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[00:34:58] *** ralphm has left the room
[00:35:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[00:37:14] *** Tobias has joined the room
[00:47:12] *** waqas has joined the room
[00:47:14] *** jere has left the room
[00:48:43] *** jere has joined the room
[00:52:17] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[01:01:52] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[01:02:23] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[01:11:00] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[01:24:22] *** Valerian has joined the room
[01:24:52] *** Valerian has left the room
[01:26:31] *** Valerian has joined the room
[01:42:52] *** Guus has left the room
[01:42:53] *** Guus has joined the room
[01:44:14] *** tux has joined the room
[01:47:49] *** nyco has left the room
[01:47:59] *** nyco has joined the room
[01:56:38] *** uc has joined the room
[01:56:57] *** uc shows as "online"
[02:05:04] *** jere has left the room
[02:05:13] *** jere has joined the room
[02:14:12] *** Zash shows as "online"
[02:41:17] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[02:41:27] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Я вернулсо!"
[03:31:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[03:34:17] *** Valerian has left the room
[03:34:31] *** Guus has left the room
[03:34:38] *** Guus has joined the room
[03:35:22] *** Guus has left the room
[03:37:31] *** Valerian has joined the room
[03:38:24] *** daniel has left the room
[03:38:29] *** daniel has joined the room
[03:46:01] *** Valerian has left the room
[03:46:11] *** tux has left the room
[03:46:13] *** tux has joined the room
[03:54:56] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[04:05:22] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:05:26] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[04:05:50] *** Valerian has joined the room
[04:07:50] *** Guus has left the room
[04:09:32] *** Valerian has left the room
[04:13:35] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:16:10] *** Guus has left the room
[04:19:13] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:19:31] *** Guus has left the room
[04:24:22] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:24:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:25:45] *** Zash has left the room
[04:26:17] *** Zash shows as "online"
[04:27:21] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:27:44] *** Guus has left the room
[04:28:53] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:29:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:31:10] *** Guus has joined the room
[04:31:11] *** Guus has left the room
[04:31:30] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:32:51] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:38:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:39:43] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:41:10] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:41:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:43:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:43:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:45:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[04:48:42] *** McKael shows as "online"
[04:48:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:48:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:52:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:52:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[04:53:48] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[04:57:22] *** SamWhited has left the room
[04:58:43] *** daniel has left the room
[04:58:46] *** daniel has joined the room
[05:03:48] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[05:05:22] *** Kev shows as "online"
[05:11:22] *** Flow has joined the room
[05:18:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
[05:22:26] *** daniel has left the room
[05:22:29] *** daniel has joined the room
[05:23:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:28:41] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:30:01] *** SouL has left the room
[05:32:38] *** Guus has joined the room
[05:35:08] *** Guus has left the room
[05:35:48] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:36:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:39:54] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:40:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:42:13] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:43:14] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:50:08] *** Guus has joined the room
[05:50:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[05:50:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[05:51:36] *** Guus has left the room
[05:52:25] *** dwd shows as "online"
[05:59:59] *** Guus has joined the room
[06:02:37] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:04:57] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:05:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[06:13:55] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:14:57] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[06:19:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:21:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[06:22:21] *** daniel has left the room
[06:22:25] *** daniel has joined the room
[06:25:52] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[06:26:29] *** waqas has left the room
[06:27:16] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:33:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[06:34:07] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[06:37:33] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[06:42:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[06:42:41] *** Martin has joined the room
[06:47:20] *** daniel has left the room
[06:47:24] *** daniel shows as "online"
[06:50:33] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:51:55] *** daniel has left the room
[06:52:00] *** daniel shows as "online"
[06:53:54] *** daniel has left the room
[06:53:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[06:54:24] *** emxp has joined the room
[06:58:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
[06:59:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:00:09] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:02:03] *** daniel has left the room
[07:02:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:02:49] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:02:50] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[07:02:51] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:03:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[07:03:55] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:06:46] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:06:47] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:07:20] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[07:08:25] *** daniel has left the room
[07:08:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:12:49] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:13:51] *** daniel has left the room
[07:13:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:13:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:15:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:16:25] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:17:16] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:20:35] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[07:23:52] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[07:27:00] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:32:01] *** daniel has left the room
[07:32:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:34:07] *** daniel has left the room
[07:34:12] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:34:46] *** zinid has left the room
[07:35:46] *** tux shows as "away"
[07:39:43] *** Martin shows as "online"
[07:39:55] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:42:40] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[07:43:11] *** McKael shows as "online"
[07:44:12] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:44:14] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:47:48] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave me a message! :D"
[07:47:53] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave me a message! :D"
[07:48:46] *** daniel has left the room
[07:48:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:50:45] *** zinid shows as "online"
[07:52:35] *** goffi has joined the room
[07:53:22] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:53:35] *** Martin shows as "online"
[07:57:48] *** ralphm has left the room
[07:58:40] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:58:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:02:47] *** daniel has left the room
[08:02:50] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:03:38] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[08:06:32] *** daniel has left the room
[08:06:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:08:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:08:23] *** winfried shows as "online"
[08:13:05] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:13:45] *** daniel has left the room
[08:15:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:15:57] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:16:53] *** daniel has left the room
[08:16:55] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:16:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:18:47] *** daniel has left the room
[08:18:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:23:05] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:23:47] *** goffi has joined the room
[08:25:46] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:30:39] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:32:38] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[08:32:57] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:32:58] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:34:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:36:41] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:37:04] *** Kev has left the room
[08:38:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:38:16] *** Kev has left the room
[08:40:29] <emxp> Guus, Ge0rG: Coming back to the 'new' Foundations discussion. My intention is a) focus on important issues in the xmpp comunity in general b) maybe put paid devs on these task or specific clients which are likey to improve the UX of xmpp in general (yes, money is an issue i know) c) build a platform/website to show what xmpp can do for standard users who never heard of xmpp before d) may provide general information about the network (number of users, how does xmpp work etc) - you get what my intention is? I dont talk about if that's likely to happen. I ask whether is the right way?
[08:40:39] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:41:08] *** lumi has joined the room
[08:43:26] <Guus> emxp: I don't know. There likely is not one right way. If you see value in it, by all means.
[08:45:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:45:49] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:46:19] <Ge0rG> emxp:
(a) yes, 100%. I'm trying that for a while now.
(b) not only money is an issue, fair distribution of the money is as well.
(c) I'm not sure people are reading such websites, but it might attract some nerds / multipliers, so yeah! I wish we could host it on jabber.org...
(d) that's actually hard. The XSF is trying to, but you can hardly get reliable data from a federated system like XMPP
[08:47:36] *** daniel has left the room
[08:47:40] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:48:53] *** daniel has left the room
[08:48:58] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:51:42] *** daniel has left the room
[08:51:52] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:52:22] *** winfried shows as "online"
[08:52:22] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:55:13] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:55:21] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:55:46] *** Tobias has left the room
[08:56:01] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:56:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:56:54] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:57:22] *** daniel has left the room
[08:57:26] *** Tobias has left the room
[08:57:59] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[08:58:23] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:58:26] *** tux shows as "online"
[08:59:07] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[08:59:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:00:37] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:03:20] <daniel> If you are good at fund raising by all means go ahead. I don't think developers will say no to money
[09:04:34] <daniel> Ironically fund raising is a full time job. So as soon as you start you'll have to raise enough money to at least pay your own salary
[09:06:19] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:06:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:06:50] *** Tobias has left the room
[09:07:26] *** McKael shows as "online"
[09:08:23] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[09:10:53] *** Flow has joined the room
[09:11:22] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[09:11:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:12:10] *** daniel has left the room
[09:12:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:14:48] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[09:15:47] <Ge0rG> daniel: actually, to pay for two people.
[09:15:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[09:15:54] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:17:26] <Ge0rG> ...so that you have one effective developer
[09:17:55] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:18:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:19:12] <daniel> My personal approach is to create a sustainable business model. I know that's quite revolutionary idea in today's world. But you it might be more... sustainable...
[09:19:12] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[09:19:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:20:17] <zinid> sustainable model is to get hired :D
[09:20:41] <mathieui> daniel, did you think about pitching your idea to a VC to get funding? :p
[09:22:14] <daniel> zinid, only if that company itself has a sustainable business model. i'm sure the matrix developer can agree
[09:22:30] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[09:26:18] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:26:18] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:26:39] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[09:26:42] *** McKael shows as "online"
[09:26:48] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:26:48] *** Martin has left the room
[09:27:12] *** Martin has joined the room
[09:27:24] *** Martin shows as "online"
[09:31:03] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:32:11] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[09:32:25] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[09:33:03] *** daniel has left the room
[09:33:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:35:18] <Ge0rG> I've heard that Erlang an C++ developers are in high demand...
[09:36:40] <emxp> daniel, Ge0rG: For me there is no direct discussion of fairness. the foundation can act transparent, only invest in open source code and only spend money to task/work they all agree to. based on some principles - opensource, leading for xmpp, of intrest for xmpp community etc.. If people dont agree to those projects, they wont spend. so the foundation is forced to define task which are in the interest of most xmpp users somehow... or they can define task, the necessary effort, and let people donate and offer like 10-20% of the necessary amount. It's better to have a central plattform to collect task, than wait for third party aproaches maybe
[09:37:12] *** daniel has left the room
[09:37:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:37:29] <emxp> I think most people, dont like to donate, if they have no idea, about where the money goes
[09:39:35] <Kev> Pushing only OSS projects sounds like a Really Bad Idea, given where so much of the XSF's expertise and effort has come from over the years.
[09:40:41] <mathieui> Kev, yeah, although I can see the point if people are donating the funding
[09:41:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:41:43] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[09:42:25] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[09:44:19] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:46:00] <emxp> mathieui: what do you mean exactly
[09:46:38] <emxp> Kev: Just an example. What software would you suggest to support?
[09:47:21] <Zash> Some may find it weird to donate to commercial projects.
[09:47:30] <Kev> Ah, this is a separate 'pay for software' foundation? I thought you meant the XSF.
[09:47:48] <Kev> If it's some 'pay for opensource XMPP foundation', it's fine to focus on open source.
[09:48:29] <Kev> Zash: Sure, so it has to be both non-commercial and open source? :)
[09:48:38] <Ge0rG> Kev: I think that OSS is the only way to ensure that the software won't just fold up and die at any moment in time after or before the funding stops.
[09:49:03] <Kev> Ge0rG: I don't think OSS ensures that at all. But I understand what you mean.
[09:49:30] <Ge0rG> Kev: with closed source, there is no way at all to achieve that.
[09:50:01] <Ge0rG> Kev: and there are many viable business models around OSS, so I don't think this is about offending commercial closed-source providers.
[09:50:13] <Kev> Also not true, but it's harder to get anyone to agree to it.
[09:50:37] <Ge0rG> Kev: it's always hard to agree on how to spend money. Your first remark is a good example of that.
[09:50:45] *** fp-tester has left the room
[09:50:54] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[09:50:55] <Kev> Ge0rG: If the business model is viable, we don't need a new foundation to be fundraising to inject money, I suppose? :)
[09:51:47] <Ge0rG> Kev: so we need to focus our money on non-viable business models. Wow, that sounds like a very awful framing of paying for non-commercial OSS development.
[09:51:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:51:51] <Kev> I don't have any problem with someone running a "raise money and we'll give it to projects" org, BTW. I misunderstood and thought it was suggested to do it through the XSF, which I disagree with.
[09:53:25] <Kev> I think the prospect is filled with difficulties, but as long as it's not the XSF that's shouldering them, more people working in XMPP is good :)
[09:53:57] <Ge0rG> The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of resurrecting the Jabber Software Foundation.
[09:54:49] *** zinid has left the room
[09:54:49] *** zinid has left the room
[09:54:49] *mathieui start writign JEPs
[09:55:20] <Ge0rG> Which is my second "it used to be more appropriate in the past" epiphany after "message routing was better before Carbons, and we should try to get back to it"
[09:55:36] *** zinid has joined the room
[09:55:39] *** zinid shows as "online"
[09:55:43] *mathieui starts writing JEPs
[09:55:57] <Kev> Routing was better before carbons?
[09:57:05] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:57:24] <Zash> Ge0rG: I suddenly have this urge to tell you something along the lines of "I told you so"
[09:57:58] <Ge0rG> Kev: I've been pondering about how to improve the message routing mess we are currently in, and my proposal for a future XMPP would be this:
- messages to the bare JID are persistent, routed to all online resoures and archived
- messages to a full JID are ephemeral, only routed to the target full JID (or bounced) and not stored.
[09:58:13] <Ge0rG> - resource locking must be burned with fire.
[09:58:28] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:58:43] <Ge0rG> and this is very close to XMPP message routing rules pre-Carbons
[09:59:03] <Kev> I'm fine with that in principle, although we're not ready for "resource locking must be burned with fire." because of not having a sensible caps story yet, but we could get there. We need to anyway, because of carbons.
[09:59:08] <Ge0rG> Except there is no sane way to get from here to there.
[09:59:23] <Ge0rG> Kev: because of carbons and archives.
[09:59:30] <MattJ> There are ways though
[09:59:34] <Ge0rG> and race conditions.
[10:00:08] <Kev> The idea of not doing full-JID fallback is sensible enough, in a MAM world.
[10:00:33] <Kev> But only if you archive. Hmm.
[10:00:59] <Ge0rG> Kev: if we make full-JID synonymous with ephemeral, there is no need for fallback.
[10:01:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:01:06] *** fp-tester has left the room
[10:01:15] <Ge0rG> But reassigning the semantics of full-JID is a tough call.
[10:01:16] <Kev> Except for requiring a forklift upgrade.
[10:01:18] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[10:01:31] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm open to less radical suggestions.
[10:01:40] <Kev> I was trying to think through whether it was possible for a 'modern' client on a 'modern' server to accept messages in 'old' style, but still do sensible things.
[10:01:56] <Ge0rG> Kev: but I think it's important that we analyze the situation we are in, determine that it's a huge mess, and have a vision of where we want to be in X years.
[10:01:59] <Kev> I guess there is.
[10:02:17] <Kev> If we in some way mark sessions as being xmpp 1 or xmpp 2.
[10:02:24] <Zash> Design from the top instead of the bottom?
[10:02:30] <Ge0rG> Kev: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0 ;)
[10:02:33] <Kev> Ge0rG: I don't disagree with that. I've been trying to do this for some time.
[10:02:53] <Kev> (that being working a way out of the mess)
[10:03:12] <Ge0rG> and I'd love that vision to be "XMPP(-IM) is a transport protocol to synchronize a message history between a user's devices on login and live.
[10:03:35] <Ge0rG> plus what we have with presence, that's working well more or less.
[10:03:41] *** Flow shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:04:08] <Kev> I think a long session at the next summit would be justified.
[10:04:09] <Ge0rG> Zash: yeah.
[10:05:16] <Ge0rG> Kev: +1 to that, though I don't know yet if I can attend.
[10:05:26] <Kev> Or a fully-virtual summit.
[10:05:34] <Zash> Ge0rG: Yeah, I too have this feeling that we've built a bunch of things that we don't know how they are supposed to fit togeather.
[10:05:40] <Kev> Or just a video chat between interested parties. Whatever.
[10:05:49] <Kev> I don't think IM/mail is the most productive way to work through such a core issue.
[10:05:53] <Kev> (But I could be wrong)
[10:06:49] <Ge0rG> Kev: I think that whoever is going to attend a live meeting needs to understand the problem first.
[10:07:24] <Zash> FOSDEM isn't too far away?
[10:07:27] <Ge0rG> Zash: it's not just a feeling, it's our current situation. Have a look at the interop between MAM and MUC, MUC and Carbons, etc.
[10:07:39] <Ge0rG> Even presence in MUC is a challenge.
[10:09:16] <Ge0rG> And the current situation is sufficiently f***ed up that we can't fix it by piling more protocols on top.
[10:09:21] <Kev> I think needing to understand the problem is why high-bandwidth is useful.
[10:09:53] <Kev> I'm not at all convinced that it can't be fixed by building on top, though.
[10:10:02] <Ge0rG> I'm pondering about writing something long-ish to explain the problem as I see it and possible solution directions
[10:10:16] <Zash> Ge0rG: MAM, MUC, Carbons, SM, Push, CSI etc
[10:10:17] *** daniel has left the room
[10:10:23] <Ge0rG> Zash: yeah.
[10:10:23] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[10:10:39] <Kev> All your examples there included MUC.
[10:10:44] <Zash> And the number of things involved has grown to be more numerous than what fits in my head
[10:10:59] <Kev> Binning MUC and replacing it might be an idea...
[10:11:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: what Zash said.
[10:11:30] <Ge0rG> Kev: how should Carbons and MAM interact with 0184 ACKs for example?
[10:11:37] <Kev> I think they're all necessary. Whether they're called individual things, or xmpp2core just gets really long.
[10:12:04] <Kev> You need archiving, you need groupchat, you need routing rules, you need app-level acks, you need push, you need bandwidth management...
[10:12:09] <Ge0rG> Kev: all those things are needed, yes.
[10:12:22] <Ge0rG> Kev: that's not the question. The question is how to make them work together.
[10:12:34] <Ge0rG> They are all individual patches for individual problems, and they interop badly.
[10:12:36] *** stefandxm has left the room
[10:12:47] <Kev> I'm far from saying everything's perfect. I challenge the notion that things can't be fixed without binning the core, though.
[10:12:56] <Kev> And we certainly need The Big Picture sorted.
[10:13:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: this is not about binning the core.
[10:13:24] <Ge0rG> Kev: but about some of the assumptions it made that are not appropriate any more.
[10:13:29] <Kev> You'll remember (you won't, actually, because it was before your time :)) that I started a protoXEP for this many many years ago, but we didn't have the building blocks to solve it. It was in the days before MAM et al.
[10:13:41] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:14:18] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:14:20] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:15:17] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm not intending to replace XMPP with JSON-REST. But I want to start from The Big Picture and see what needs to be changed to make XMPP2 work well.
[10:15:23] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:20:15] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:20:17] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:23:23] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:24:18] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:24:34] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:25:24] *** winfried shows as "online"
[10:26:57] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:26:57] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:27:27] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:27:27] *** Martin has left the room
[10:30:08] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:30:25] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:30:32] *** Martin has joined the room
[10:30:36] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:32:55] <Kev> I'm very much in favour of big-picture here.
[10:33:14] *** emxp has joined the room
[10:34:03] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[10:34:04] <emxp> Kev: Yes, i was talking about a different organsisation and if my thoughts are senseful
[10:35:51] <Zash> And big-picture needs a big whiteboard! :)
[10:37:17] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:37:18] <Kev> Maybe Ge0rG should publish a Thought-A-Day on each of the problems he sees with the current state, so it's not TL;DR, and at the end of the series we've got the full picture :D
[10:37:42] <jonasw> Kev, I thnik he started a blog series :)
[10:38:14] <Kev> Odd, I thought I had planet jabber in my feed.
[10:38:42] <jonasw> does the xmpp.org blog federate to that?
[10:40:25] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:41:25] <zinid> I'm lost, xmpp2.0 is coming?
[10:41:46] <zinid> just don't use XML anymore :)
[10:41:59] <Zash> funny
[10:42:21] *** valo has left the room
[10:42:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[10:43:31] *** valo has joined the room
[10:44:46] *** emxp has joined the room
[10:45:08] <zinid> or JSON if that matters
[10:45:18] <zinid> JSON is XML of nowadays
[10:45:29] <zinid> kids from 2030s will laught at us again
[10:45:51] *** Kev has left the room
[10:46:00] <Zash> Wake me up when ASN.1 is cool again
[10:46:12] <zinid> never?
[10:46:19] <zinid> it's not modern, ya know
[10:46:30] <zinid> protocol buffers is THE THING
[10:46:37] *** Yagiza has left the room
[10:47:12] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:47:14] <Ge0rG> actually, protocol buffers is one of the saner protocol designs.
[10:47:24] <jonasw> Zash, ASN.1 over XML over JSON over HTTP over XMPP over VTEP
[10:47:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m not convinced by their implicit defaults.
[10:47:50] <Ge0rG> Kev: I've started a blog post series on "Easy XMPP", which is different. I think for this one, I'd rather go with my personal blog and the "xmpp" tag there.
[10:48:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: admittedly, I haven't had a deep dive into it. But any protocol that doesn't implicitly encode data lengths and uses escapable special markers is sane for me.
[10:49:01] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:49:25] <Zash> jonasw: Considering ASN.1 being something of a schema thing, and the existence of an XML encoding of it ... I wonder if there's a JSON one yet.
[10:49:35] <Ge0rG> https://blog.plan99.net/its-time-to-kill-the-web-974a9fe80c89 was an awesome post showing that all the modern web protocols actually fail the same way the US telephone network did in the 70ies. Mixing of meta-data and data.
[10:49:50] <Zash> Make Gohper Great Again
[10:49:58] <Ge0rG> The author is calling it "buffer overflows" and meaning "lack of explicit buffer lengths", but it's all the same story.
[10:50:24] <Zash> Don't LangSec people say that that's a giant security hole too?
[10:50:37] <Ge0rG> Zash: that what?
[10:51:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm just not sure if I can start with individual problems and somehow arrive at the big picture.
[10:51:11] <Zash> Whop's, bit got flipped in the length field and everything turned into a giant buffer overflow!
[10:52:04] <Zash> Something something length fields don't fit into some simpler language category?
[10:52:05] <zinid> Ge0rG: why not prefix length? you can parse it in parallel, unlike scanning
[10:53:08] <Zash> Because Heartbleed?
[10:53:21] <Zash> Length prefixed fields helped so much there
[10:54:12] <Ge0rG> Zash: the issue with heartbleed was conflicting length fields.
[10:55:09] <zinid> Zash: using same logic I would say don't use C then
[10:56:28] <jonasw> zinid, that’s a reasonable statement :-)
[10:56:40] *** Guus has left the room
[10:56:43] <zinid> well, yes :)
[10:57:15] <Ge0rG> Zash: besides, my point wasn't that old protocols are sane, just that the current ones are mad.
[10:59:11] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:59:47] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:02:12] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:02:30] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[11:04:12] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[11:04:13] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:04:23] *** Martin has left the room
[11:04:24] *** Martin has joined the room
[11:05:48] *** Martin shows as "online"
[11:05:51] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:09:30] <zinid> yeah, like http2
[11:09:36] <zinid> tcp over http, wtf...
[11:10:13] <Zash> Gotta let Google have their optimizations
[11:11:10] <zinid> right, today everyone is accepting what Google suggests, to be exact, what's good for their bussiness
[11:11:14] <zinid> IETF is degrading
[11:11:56] *** SouL has left the room
[11:11:58] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave me a message! :D"
[11:12:08] *** SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave me a message! :D"
[11:12:12] <Ge0rG> W3C has fallen.
[11:12:35] <Ge0rG> zinid: https://jacquesmattheij.com/the-web-in-2050 is for you :P
[11:12:55] *** daniel has left the room
[11:13:41] <zinid> Ge0rG: wait, I didn't finish reading your first article (about kill web)
[11:15:33] *** nyco has left the room
[11:15:43] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:16:01] *** nyco has joined the room
[11:16:04] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[11:16:06] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:16:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[11:16:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:19:16] *** McKael shows as "online"
[11:21:23] *** stefandxm has left the room
[11:23:58] <zinid> Ge0rG: for the record, from your article:
> The fix: All buffers should be length prefixed from database, to frontend server, to user interface. There should never be a need to scan something for magic characters to determine where it ends. Note that this requires binary protocols, formats and UI logic throughout the entire stack.
[11:24:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[11:26:13] <Zash> I forget where I read it, but you shouldn't underestimate human-readable protocols and formats. At least not for early versions. Later versions being binary might be sensible.
[11:26:42] <Zash> It was kinda cool way back in the day to open the XML console and see something that made sense.
[11:26:54] <Zash> Or View Source and reading the HTML and stuff.
[11:27:05] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:27:10] <Zash> can't do that anymore tho, not with all the minifications and whatnot.
[11:27:16] <zinid> Zash: yes, it was cool because there were no encryption, I used tcpflow for this ;)
[11:27:50] <Holger> Not sure why $length:$readable_data would be impossible though.
[11:27:54] <zinid> actually, there can be well-defined mechanism to dump structures in human-readable form
[11:28:11] <zinid> like they do for WebAssembly
[11:28:12] *** daniel has joined the room
[11:28:21] *** Guus has left the room
[11:28:23] <Zash> Do binary protocols usually have that tho?
[11:28:35] <Zash> Like, included by default and accessible?
[11:28:54] <jonasw> Zash, protobuf does
[11:28:58] <zinid> Zash: I don't think so, but it's not that hard to write rules how to dump protobuffs structures for example
[11:29:13] <jonasw> Zash, $homebrewbinary probably doesn’t
[11:29:25] <zinid> and dumping structures is trivial and not error prone (almost)
[11:29:30] <zinid> unlike parsing them
[11:30:16] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:31:41] <Zash> Sure sure, but text formats make it really easy to get into fiddling with things, which helps with early adoption.
[11:31:47] <Zash> Of course it comes back to bite you later, but still.
[11:31:56] <jonasw> *shrug*
[11:31:57] <jonasw> XML worksforme
[11:31:58] *** Guus has left the room
[11:32:00] <zinid> this is the same argument as Python vs Haskell
[11:32:10] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:32:15] <zinid> Python will bite you later for sure
[11:32:29] <zinid> duck typing accepts no excuses
[11:32:46] <Zash> Duckt tapeing ftw
[11:33:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
[11:33:05] <jonasw> duct taping?
[11:33:06] <jonasw> kinky
[11:33:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:33:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:34:41] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:34:58] <Zash> DuckDuckTape?
[11:35:07] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:35:12] <Ge0rG> Holger: it's not impossible with human-readable formats, but then you end up with whitespace or newline in the wrong place and the parser freaks out :(
[11:35:26] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[11:36:09] <jonasw> Ge0rG, #poezio? ;-)
[11:36:12] <zinid> anyway, I'm relaxed, because I implemented XML codec for ejabberd, it does the same as asn.1/protobufs/etc and it works (despite everyone cries you should not validate)
[11:36:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no way :P
[11:36:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, a good example of a working system is the chunked HTTP encoding
[11:40:03] *** daniel has left the room
[11:40:08] *** daniel has joined the room
[11:40:37] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[11:40:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: how many HTTP entities will accept unix LF instead of CRLF, what do you think?
[11:41:49] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:42:38] *** lskdjf has left the room
[11:42:42] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[11:42:49] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:42:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, right, it’s CRLF
[11:43:26] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:43:36] <Zash> The finer points HTTP header syntax will make you mad
[11:43:51] <jonasw> Zash, I’ve seen a fun talk about that
[11:43:57] <jonasw> forgot how it was called
[11:44:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: also is there a CRLF at the end? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33878377/why-are-some-servers-not-using-crlf-after-the-last-chunk-length-of-zero ;)
[11:44:08] <jonasw> but they made ascii-art out of well-formed HTTP headers, soo....
[11:45:17] <jonasw> TIL there are trailers
[11:48:06] <Ge0rG> movie trailes? or the ones you live in?
[11:48:28] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[11:48:29] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:49:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:49:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:51:02] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the ones behind the last chunk in chunked transfer encoding
[11:51:04] <jonasw> read the answer you linked :)
[11:51:20] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:51:49] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:51:50] *** Martin shows as "online"
[11:52:24] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[11:56:43] <Ge0rG> Oh. My. God.
[11:56:46] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:59:52] *** jere has joined the room
[12:06:46] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:07:40] *** SouL has left the room
[12:07:49] *** SouL shows as "online"
[12:09:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:11:58] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:19:25] *** jcbrand has left the room
[12:19:48] *** ralphm has left the room
[12:21:14] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:21:20] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:22:36] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[12:24:00] *** McKael shows as "online"
[12:28:41] *** lovetox has joined the room
[12:29:11] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:30:16] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:30:46] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[12:34:45] *** daniel has left the room
[12:34:57] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:36:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[12:38:13] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[12:40:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:47:48] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:48:23] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:53:32] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[12:54:19] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[12:55:32] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[12:56:42] *** emxp has left the room
[12:57:13] *** jere has joined the room
[12:59:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:03:13] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:03:13] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[13:07:00] *** waqas has joined the room
[13:09:34] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[13:09:37] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:11:15] *** ralphm has left the room
[13:14:54] *** dwd has left the room
[13:15:03] *** dwd has joined the room
[13:19:24] *** emxp has joined the room
[13:21:03] *** valo has joined the room
[13:22:07] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[13:22:10] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[13:23:34] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[13:25:49] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:25:53] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:26:23] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:26:23] *** Martin has left the room
[13:26:35] *** McKael shows as "online"
[13:26:54] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[13:30:46] *** daniel has left the room
[13:30:54] *** daniel has joined the room
[13:33:56] *** stefandxm has left the room
[13:34:00] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[13:34:01] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[13:34:24] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:35:14] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[13:37:27] *** Martin has joined the room
[13:37:31] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:38:06] *** Valerian has joined the room
[13:39:55] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[13:41:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:45:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:46:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:48:55] *** daniel has left the room
[13:49:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:49:44] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[13:50:21] *** Alex has joined the room
[13:50:37] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[13:51:33] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:51:53] *** edhelas has left the room
[13:52:16] *** edhelas has joined the room
[13:52:33] *** xnyhps has left the room
[13:52:37] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:52:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:52:54] *** Tobias has left the room
[13:53:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[13:55:23] <SamWhited> > tcp over http

I start twitching every time I hear that because it makes me think of BOSH…
[13:55:23] *** Holger has left the room
[13:56:58] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[13:59:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:00:20] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:00:23] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:01:58] *** daniel has left the room
[14:02:21] *** Holger has joined the room
[14:02:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:06:16] *** stefandxm has left the room
[14:06:19] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[14:06:21] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[14:09:14] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:10:37] *** Martin has left the room
[14:10:37] *** Martin has joined the room
[14:11:01] *** daniel has left the room
[14:11:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:11:21] <zinid> bosh... plz god no
[14:11:48] *** Holger has left the room
[14:12:09] <Zash> speaking of which, anyone feel like going around the interwebz and purging old pre-standard xmpp-over-websockets implementations?
[14:12:09] <MattJ> Sorry, I have a soft spot for BOSH
[14:12:48] <zinid> I have a bunch of issues related to mod_bosh, it's brutally hard to debug with all that overcomplicated sid/rid/cid crap
[14:12:59] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:13:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:13:09] <zinid> just terrible protocol
[14:13:24] *** Holger has joined the room
[14:14:49] <SamWhited> Indeed… impossible to debug, hard to implement in any reasonable way, can't really be decoupled from the underlying thing it's transporting (although the XMPP over websocket protocol is that way too)
[14:15:44] <Zash> Thanks Web & JavaScript!
[14:15:45] <SamWhited> it's a right pain.
[14:16:26] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:16:39] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:16:44] <Ge0rG> There is a followup to kill-the-web: https://blog.plan99.net/what-should-follow-the-web-8dcbbeaccd93
[14:17:09] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:17:09] *** Martin has left the room
[14:17:47] <Zash> CORBA YEAAAAAh
[14:19:45] <fippo> have you heard of dns over http aka DOH?
[14:20:13] <Zash> fippo: It needs moar JSON
[14:21:12] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:22:42] *** Martin has joined the room
[14:25:01] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:28:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:28:29] <zinid> Can't we deprecate bosh btw? Do we still need it when we have websockets?
[14:30:21] <pep.> https://caniuse.com/websockets I suppose we could
[14:31:14] <Ge0rG> zinid: are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate?
[14:31:42] <Ge0rG> Also I wonder how that will work with TCP interruptions, bad firewalls / web firewalls, etc.
[14:32:04] <Ge0rG> Also how good is WebSocket library support for non-webbrowser applications?
[14:32:37] <Zash> Maybe we should have standardized two xmpp-over-websocket versions. One with WebJS fiddlery and one that's just the same as TCP but over WS
[14:33:15] <Zash> Does Websockets work with all those restrictive corporate firewalls that are forcing everything into becoming https on 443?
[14:33:54] <Ge0rG> Zash: I think WS is masquerading as HTTPS, but of course with irregular traffic patterns.
[14:34:16] <Ge0rG> Zash: so it will work with the subset of firewalls that don't look too deeply into the traffic and don't have low timeouts
[14:35:07] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:36:12] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:36:59] *** daniel has left the room
[14:37:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:40:42] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:41:42] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:42:07] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:43:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:45:15] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:46:36] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:48:31] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:49:48] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[14:51:32] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:51:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:51:57] *** daniel has left the room
[14:52:00] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:52:29] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:52:49] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[14:53:12] *** daniel has left the room
[14:53:24] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:55:02] *** lumi has joined the room
[14:56:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:00:46] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[15:00:54] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[15:01:33] *** Holger has left the room
[15:01:33] *** Holger has joined the room
[15:01:43] *** efrit has joined the room
[15:02:29] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:02:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:02:39] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[15:03:07] <moparisthebest> zinid, excellent work on TLS SRV patch :)
[15:03:49] <zinid> > are you going to pay the developers of all BOSH clients to migrate?

Wow, we now care about backward compatibility? What about private storage, vcard avatars, privacy lists? Who payed the developers?
[15:03:49] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:03:56] <zinid> moparisthebest: thanks
[15:04:23] <mathieui> zinid, nobody, and most clients are still using private storage
[15:04:34] <zinid> regarding firewalls: it's just https traffice, timeouts will be handled by stream management
[15:05:20] <zinid> mathieui: I know ;)
[15:05:24] <dwd> zinid, I think we still need BOSH. We have to use it on occasion.
[15:05:29] <moparisthebest> I'm biased, but I think web clients use websockets, and non-web clients use direct TLS, both are equivalent when over 443 as far as evil firewalls go
[15:05:54] <zinid> moparisthebest: I think this webby stuff is mostly for browsers now, no?
[15:06:13] <zinid> not sure why would a non-web client use bosh/ws
[15:06:18] <moparisthebest> iirc gajim has a bosh implementation
[15:06:23] <moparisthebest> but I agree it *should* be
[15:06:37] <zinid> dwd: can't we use ws occasionally? :)
[15:06:37] <dwd> We experience browsers with websockets explicitly disabled. This is far from ideal, but still, they exist.
[15:06:53] <moparisthebest> dwd, I didn't know that was a possibility
[15:07:02] <mathieui> zinid, when you have no other choice for direct connection, ws/bosh in desktop clients seem like a nice fit
[15:07:14] <Kev> We experience browsers too old to websocket, too.
[15:07:22] <Kev> (Yes, yes, I know, I know, but they do)
[15:07:36] <mathieui> hopefully they will be 0dayed into history before long
[15:07:39] <zinid> damn, so I need to fix those mod_bosh bugs :(
[15:07:49] <zinid> thank you!
[15:07:56] <dwd> zinid, Also, I don't think your IPv6 is working.
[15:08:06] <zinid> dwd: it doesn't, yeah
[15:08:17] <zinid> something wrong with firewall probably
[15:08:24] <dwd> Kev, No, we're seeing new browsers, but with it disabled. And no, I didn't know either.
[15:08:27] <moparisthebest> mathieui, but for a desktop client direct TLS is also a (far easier) option whenever ws/bosh is
[15:08:39] <Kev> dwd: Yes, you said that, I didn't doubt it.
[15:09:11] <mathieui> moparisthebest, sometimes you cannot
[15:09:22] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[15:09:23] <zinid> dwd: the problem with ipv6 is I have nowhere to test it from
[15:09:34] <zinid> dwd: I don't have ipv6 at home, so...
[15:09:55] <moparisthebest> mathieui, aren't you connecting to ws/bosh over direct TLS ?
[15:10:09] <moparisthebest> unless you mean, fully in-the-clear-no-tls-xmpp :/
[15:10:30] <pep.> moparisthebest, sometimes non-standards ports are blocked
[15:10:34] <mathieui> no, I mean, you can proxy those from 443 with nginx
[15:11:13] <moparisthebest> and you can alpn (or protocol-inspect, ew) xmpp and http to xmpp server or nginx on 443
[15:11:28] <moparisthebest> it all depends on the server to have it set up properly, but bosh/ws does too
[15:13:19] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[15:13:30] <jonasw> moparisthebest, alpn will be blocked by firewalls if they really want to
[15:13:44] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[15:13:50] *** fp-tester shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[15:13:52] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[15:14:04] <moparisthebest> yes it can be, and probably will one day, but not by wifi hotspots in coffee shops most likely
[15:14:38] <moparisthebest> also why it's not required, daniel and I talked about it back in the day, conversations will probably try with alpn and if it fails then without it, or vice versa
[15:15:10] *** Holger has joined the room
[15:15:53] <Zash> not *yet*
[15:16:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:17:56] <moparisthebest> so today, using alpn, you can have client -> sslh (based on alpn) -> (prosody,nginx)
[15:18:16] <zinid> yeah, ALPN is a really bad idea if you want to bypass the DPI: you're literally saying: "hey, I'm jabber"
[15:18:26] <moparisthebest> today you could also, without alpn, have client -> stunnel (or something decrypting TLS) -> sslh (based on xmpp/http) -> (prosody,nginx)
[15:20:24] <moparisthebest> the original spec sent the SRV name in SNI and used that to multi-plex :P
[15:20:34] <moparisthebest> no one liked my wanton abuse of SNI though :'(
[15:21:15] <dwd> moparisthebest, Wouldn't work in Java, I think.
[15:22:18] *** daniel has left the room
[15:22:21] <zinid> for the record, I heard it TLS v1.3 sni and other extensions will not be that easy to inspect
[15:22:21] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:22:31] <zinid> can somebody confirm?
[15:22:42] <zinid> I tried to read the I-D, but it's brutal
[15:22:45] <moparisthebest> yea TLS lib support for "serve the certificate for xmpp.org when server1.xmpp.org is in SNI" is probably spotty/non-existant
[15:23:26] <moparisthebest> I used sslh to multiplex on SNI and prosody just served the 1 cert regardless meh
[15:23:57] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[15:23:57] <moparisthebest> zinid, I know people were pushing to encrypt SNI/ALPN but last I heard it was abandoned to the future, they might have done something to obfuscate it or something, not sure
[15:24:38] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[15:24:38] *** Martin has left the room
[15:24:46] <zinid> moparisthebest: too bad, because the government firewall is annoying (it detects SNI)
[15:24:49] *** daniel has left the room
[15:24:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:25:01] *** Martin has joined the room
[15:25:02] <moparisthebest> which government?
[15:25:06] <zinid> russian
[15:25:07] *** Martin shows as "online"
[15:25:18] <moparisthebest> ah that sucks
[15:26:51] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[15:26:53] <dwd> zinid, We could work around that.
[15:27:10] <dwd> zinid, Use starttls to establish the session and then resume it on directtls.
[15:27:46] <moparisthebest> you are just announcing it another way, also they could inspect the certificate coming back couldn't they?
[15:27:49] *** daniel has left the room
[15:27:49] <zinid> dwd: but starttls can be detected easily
[15:27:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:28:29] *** daniel has left the room
[15:28:33] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:28:42] <moparisthebest> so my work on 443 just holds your connection up temporarily, connects on it's own to see if the TLS handshake succeeds (and only supports TLS 1.0), and only if successful lets your connection through
[15:29:11] <moparisthebest> so if you only support TLS 1.1+ it won't allow that either, without also supporting 1.0...
[15:29:14] *** tux has left the room
[15:31:36] <zinid> yes, they could inspect the certificate
[15:31:47] *** Alex shows as "online"
[15:32:00] *** Valerian has left the room
[15:32:03] <zinid> so I would prefere all parameters to be encrypted
[15:32:07] <zinid> *prefer
[15:33:36] <moparisthebest> it's a shame to have to consider that at a country level
[15:33:52] <moparisthebest> but nowadays even 'free-er' countries like UK look like they are moving in that direction...
[15:34:14] <zinid> right, you never know who's next
[15:34:19] <zinid> so this should be developed now
[15:34:37] <zinid> thus I'm wondered the TLS folks abandoned the idea
[15:34:58] <moparisthebest> it's been a year or two since I looked, hopefully it was picked back up idk
[15:35:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:35:17] <moparisthebest> the reason was because it breaks all the multi-plexing TLS business like I do with sslh
[15:35:29] <moparisthebest> so akamai and such were super against it
[15:37:15] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[15:37:18] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[15:37:20] <moparisthebest> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption/
[15:37:25] <moparisthebest> August 29, 2017
[15:37:33] <moparisthebest> safe to say it's actively being worked on
[15:37:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[15:37:53] <zinid> but 20 pages...
[15:38:00] *** Arc has joined the room
[15:38:06] <Zash> Weren't all the CDNs strongly opposed to that?
[15:38:14] <moparisthebest> ha yea it's not short
[15:38:16] <Zash> oh you said that
[15:38:27] <Zash> 20 pages is not what?
[15:38:32] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[15:38:32] <moparisthebest> but whatever they come up with there in theory should apply equally to ALPN
[15:38:59] <moparisthebest> Zash, he is saying https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-00 is 20 pages long
[15:40:01] <zinid> moparisthebest: there is a lot non-normative text, it's fine after all
[15:41:43] <moparisthebest> I can't find anything about ALPN encryption
[15:42:40] <SamWhited> I hadn't seen that; might be interesting to try and do an early implementation in our TLS 1.3 stack. I might give that a shot one of these days if I can convince my boss to loan me to the crypto team for a bit.
[15:43:23] <SamWhited> Does it look relatively implementable in its current form?
[15:44:10] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[15:44:15] <edhelas> https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
[15:44:28] <mimi89999> edhelas: We saw it.
[15:44:52] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[15:46:39] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[15:46:41] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[15:47:37] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[15:47:50] <zinid> mimi89999: in another chatroom ;)
[15:48:16] <Ge0rG> If we all are in all the same rooms, can't we just merge them into one?
[15:48:33] <Zash> Ge0rG: You are the one who started another? :)
[15:48:48] <jonasw> ... after people complained about off-topic discussions here
[15:49:01] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[15:49:53] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[15:49:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:50:00] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:50:02] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:50:15] <Zash> The off-topic discussions there are too on-topic!!
[15:50:44] <Ge0rG> Zash: that's not my fault.
[15:51:00] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:51:11] <mimi89999> Ge0rG: 😁
[15:51:59] <zinid> last time I checked there was dead silence in this room
[15:52:05] <zinid> now it's active, that's cool
[15:52:13] <Ge0rG> zinid: board meeting approaching
[15:52:17] *** nyco shows as "online"
[15:52:27] <zinid> Ge0rG: nah, I mean several years ago
[15:53:54] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:53:56] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:53:56] *** waqas has left the room
[15:54:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:55:10] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[15:56:30] <MattJ> ding
[15:56:42] <Arc> dong
[15:56:45] <Martin> Ding ding, board o'clock
[15:56:58] <MattJ> Looking promising :)
[15:57:01] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:57:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:57:32] <nyco> hey
[15:57:42] <Arc> 4/5 this looks very promising
[15:57:54] <MattJ> ralphm, ?
[15:58:09] <nyco> I have to leave at :30 max
[15:58:44] <MattJ> Ok
[15:58:49] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[15:58:54] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:58:56] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:59:04] <Arc> i cant stay much beyond :30 either
[15:59:30] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[16:00:20] <Martin> Ok, let's get cracking then
[16:00:25] <Martin> 1. Roll call
[16:00:36] <MattJ> Here
[16:00:39] <Arc> Here
[16:00:42] <nyco> Présent
[16:00:56] <Martin> 2. Minutes, any volunteers? dwd?
[16:01:36] <jonasw> I can do it
[16:01:40] *** Valerian has joined the room
[16:01:40] <jonasw> but I’ll also have to leave at :30
[16:01:50] <Martin> Thanks jonasw, much appreciated.
[16:01:59] <Martin> 3. Topics for decisions
[16:02:05] <Martin> Drawing from here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
[16:02:30] <Martin> 3.1: Logo amendments. Struggled to get this tied off last week, thoughts?
[16:02:48] <Arc> +1
[16:02:51] <nyco> +1
[16:02:53] <MattJ> I think it was left last week that ralphm wanted other board members to express their opinion as well
[16:02:56] <nyco> voted on the GH issue
[16:03:05] <nyco> done
[16:03:13] <MattJ> I was in favour, but it seems some folks are fairly against the change
[16:04:03] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:04:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:04:22] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[16:04:26] <MattJ> I continue to be +1, for the record
[16:04:42] <Martin> OK, me too
[16:04:47] <Arc> We are the only ones who even notice the glitch. It doesnt substantially alter our logo in any way a non-xsf member would ever notice.
[16:04:49] *** jcbrand has left the room
[16:05:00] <Arc> we notice it because we end up with it in front of us in inkscape, like guus did
[16:05:04] <Guus> board is now 4 times +1, one time 0.
[16:05:36] <Arc> (and btw, I printed the "fixed" logo on the trifolds for fosdem and nobody even noticed)
[16:05:51] <Guus> Arc: someone did.
[16:06:02] <Guus> *twitch*
[16:06:13] <SouL> Yes, I did :(
[16:07:03] <SouL> That was supposed to be a happy smiley face, issues for using more than one keyboard layout.
[16:07:09] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:07:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:07:37] <Ge0rG> That logo has been triggering my OCD for years.
[16:07:38] *jonasw pokes the participants
[16:07:46] <Martin> OK, so we're decided, it's approved
[16:08:29] *Arc cheers
[16:08:30] <Martin> Moving on
[16:08:32] <Martin> 4. Commitment list
[16:08:41] <Martin> 4.1 D&0 quote?
[16:09:07] <jonasw> in one sentence for the minutes, what’s that?
[16:09:12] <nyco> no news? let's move on?
[16:09:32] <Martin> jonasw: I don't know. There's nothing more in Trello and this card precedes me being on Board
[16:09:41] <jonasw> I am amused.
[16:09:52] <nyco> stpeter is assignee
[16:09:56] <jonasw> I won’t put that in the minutes ;-).
[16:09:59] <nyco> thx
[16:10:05] <nyco> Council/board bios?
[16:10:25] <nyco> Arc and Martin, type here a short sentence! ;-)
[16:10:42] <Martin> 4.2 Board bios
[16:11:07] <mimi89999> You chose the version where the 2 parts of the logo don't cross?
[16:11:09] <Martin> Will do my best
[16:11:59] <ralphm> Hi. I'm commuting, but following along
[16:12:01] *** Guus has left the room
[16:12:21] <nyco> next item?
[16:12:23] <Martin> 5. Items for discussion
[16:12:59] <Martin> 5.1 XSF Editor team. There's a comment from Guus that this might be solved?
[16:13:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:14:22] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[16:14:45] <ralphm> .
[16:14:51] <Martin> …ok… anyone else got anything on this?
[16:15:03] <jonasw> I suspect no.
[16:15:05] <nyco> nope, next? ;-)
[16:15:07] <Arc> I have no basis to say anything on the topic
[16:15:24] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:15:27] <Martin> 5.2 Legal notice on old public domain XEPs
[16:15:38] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:15:41] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:15:43] <Martin> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/345
[16:15:51] <Martin> Looks like it's been merged, so I think the card's out of date
[16:16:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:16:24] *** daniel has left the room
[16:16:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:16:43] <Martin> 5.3 Ongoing marketing activities & budget. It seems I added this card, but back in February, which is definitely too long ago for me to remember what it's about
[16:16:47] <Arc> you know we can, for once, close the meeting early :-)
[16:16:55] <ralphm> So if we don't know what to discuss, can we remove it?
[16:17:13] <Martin> ralphm: That's what I'm doing. If there's nothing, it's gone.
[16:17:14] <ralphm> I have one minute thing: elections
[16:17:14] <nyco> yes please
[16:17:26] *** stefandxm has left the room
[16:17:59] <ralphm> Shouldn't we have started this year's round?
[16:18:05] <Martin> 5.4 Blog post on hold: nyco?
[16:18:14] *** Guus has left the room
[16:18:16] *** Guus has joined the room
[16:18:42] <jonasw> is that anything board needs to discuss?
[16:18:52] *** daniel has left the room
[16:18:56] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[16:19:12] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:19:23] <Martin> Nothing. OK. Next. AOBs.
[16:19:29] <Martin> ralphm: Elections?
[16:19:55] <ralphm> Yeah, sorry for jumping the agenda
[16:20:05] <nyco> blog post is published, so unblocked, but needs some fixes, in discussion with Guus, card can be archived
[16:20:47] <ralphm> But we need to have them
[16:20:59] <jonasw> Alex, you around?
[16:21:02] <MattJ> ralphm, Alex said he was working on it
[16:21:06] <nyco> what elections?
[16:21:09] <ralphm> I missed that
[16:21:09] <jonasw> ^
[16:21:13] <jonasw> what elections? board?
[16:21:13] <MattJ> a couple of weeks ago
[16:21:16] <ralphm> Council and board
[16:21:18] <MattJ> jonasw, yes
[16:21:28] *** efrit has left the room
[16:21:38] <jonasw> yeah, alex mentioned he’d work on it after the Q3 application meeting
[16:21:48] <Guus> Indeed, Alex mentioned he was going to address that soonish.
[16:22:11] <jonasw> "ASAP" were his words back then :)
[16:22:22] <ralphm> Ok. Martin can you put that in our Trello?
[16:22:32] <Arc> our last job as a board
[16:22:55] <ralphm> What, no
[16:23:09] <ralphm> Preparation takes weeks
[16:23:38] <ralphm> Finding candidates, then the online voting, etc
[16:23:40] <Arc> i mean, seeing a new board into their new role
[16:23:44] <Guus> (is board involved in the prep or execution?)
[16:24:15] <ralphm> Well ultimately we are responsible, yes
[16:24:22] <ralphm> Details are in the bylaws
[16:24:30] <ralphm> Also
[16:24:45] <Arc> Guus: tricking, er, fooling, er, convincing 5+ people to take the role is the board's responsibility. we can't leave until its done
[16:25:02] <jonasw> itym "welcoming"
[16:25:12] <ralphm> We should all consider if we would like to run again, as will council, and try and find good candidates for board
[16:25:14] <Arc> jonasw: yes, "welcoming"
[16:25:15] <SamWhited> I always get those confused :)
[16:25:37] *** goffi has joined the room
[16:26:05] <nyco> I'm gone, sorry, bye all!
[16:26:14] <MattJ> Thanks nyco
[16:26:14] <Arc> yea i need to head out soon. is there AOB?
[16:26:18] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[16:26:25] *** valo has joined the room
[16:26:28] <MattJ> I think we're done
[16:26:36] <Guus> The XEP status thing?
[16:26:38] <Martin> Think we're done, if people are going to start breaking off
[16:26:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:26:53] <Guus> Didn't Sam add a card?
[16:26:55] <jonasw> meh, someone forgot to put that on the trello I’m afraid, Guus
[16:26:55] <ralphm> Thanks!
[16:27:01] <jonasw> ah, no it was there
[16:27:10] <ralphm> Guess we're done?
[16:27:11] <Martin> Ah, yes, "Rename Draft to Stable"
[16:27:13] <jonasw> but ralphm interrupted the agenda before it could be reached
[16:27:27] <Alex> yes I am here, cacthing up o the messages :-)
[16:27:48] <Arc> is it pressing such that we can't do it next week?
[16:28:01] <jonasw> personally, I don’t think so
[16:28:09] <Guus> Not pressing I think
[16:28:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:28:32] <SamWhited> It's not pressing
[16:28:34] <ralphm> Agreed
[16:28:35] <Martin> Right, then we're done.
[16:28:45] <Martin> +1W for next?
[16:28:55] <Arc> +1W
[16:28:55] <ralphm> Yay. Thanks for chairing Martin
[16:28:57] <ralphm> Wfm
[16:29:03] <Arc> yes thanks for chairing
[16:29:10] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:30:00] <MattJ> Thanks
[16:30:07] <jonasw> Alex, can you give me a quick statement for the minutes on the status of the preparation of the elections for board & council?
[16:30:15] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:30:46] *ralphm takes back hammer and bangs gavel
[16:30:54] <Arc> thanks ralphm :-)
[16:31:43] <Alex> jonasw: I was trying to find out when we had the election last year, need to look this up on teh memberlist, becasue the meeting minutes form last year are not on the new Wiki
[16:31:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:32:01] <jonasw> okay
[16:32:09] <jonasw> I’ll note that down as "preparation in progress"
[16:32:15] <ralphm> Last year was too late
[16:32:17] <jonasw> with some "data recovery needed due to data loss"
[16:32:43] <Alex> wanted to do this this week, but had to travel unexpted again then for the whole week to a customer
[16:32:50] <ralphm> We've been slipping over the years. Used to be in August
[16:32:52] *** emxp has joined the room
[16:33:00] <Alex> hopefully I can get some work done in the hotel in the evenings
[16:33:04] <ralphm> Cheers
[16:33:38] <ralphm> I know how life can conflict with foundation duties
[16:33:59] <Guus> Alex: need a hand?
[16:34:59] *** daniel has left the room
[16:35:33] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:36:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:36:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:37:21] <Alex> https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2016-September/008346.html
[16:38:55] <Alex> https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2016-November/008397.html
[16:39:20] <Alex> ralphm: yes, but we also said we should stick the 12 month term
[16:39:33] <ralphm> Yeah, I know
[16:39:43] <ralphm> So this is a good time to start then, right?
[16:39:58] <Alex> we had discussion a while ago to either make a term longer or shorter once, and agree on a fix schedule
[16:40:15] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:40:46] <Alex> I think Peter proposed a calendar year, Jan 1st to Dec 31,
[16:41:11] <Alex> ralphm: yes, this is why I have it on my TODO list for this week
[16:41:34] <Alex> I can setup the Wiki page this evening, and send out an Email
[16:41:49] <ralphm> Yay
[16:41:57] *Alex is on EST time this week
[16:42:47] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[16:45:14] <moparisthebest> calendar year makes sense for serving times, you'd still want the vote (much?) earlier though to avoid voting over holidays/new year
[16:46:12] <SamWhited> It seems like if you did calendar year that the first meeting would never happen because people would be on vacation.
[16:46:59] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:49:19] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:49:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:50:58] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:51:08] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:51:24] *** Kev shows as "online"
[16:53:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:54:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:55:32] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[16:55:34] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[16:55:49] *** jere has joined the room
[16:56:59] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:57:09] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:57:40] *** Alex has left the room
[16:58:11] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:58:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:58:24] *** Alex has joined the room
[16:59:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[16:59:42] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:59:46] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:59:58] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:00:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:00:58] *** goffi shows as "online"
[17:01:19] *** Martin has left the room
[17:01:52] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:01:54] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:03:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:03:44] <moparisthebest> that TLS SNI encryption RFC is making my brain hurt
[17:04:05] <Zash> RFC? Wasn't it an I-D?
[17:04:17] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[17:04:18] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:04:27] <zinid> moparisthebest: it's http fronting, not sure how it's better than tor for example
[17:04:38] <zinid> I read it too
[17:04:49] <SamWhited> I should figure out how the printer in this building works so that I can read it…
[17:04:58] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:05:10] <zinid> easy in fact
[17:05:12] <zinid> The current draft proposes two designs for SNI Encryption in TLS.
Both designs hide a "Hidden Service" behind a "Fronting Service". To
an external observer, the TLS connections will appear to be directed
towards the Fronting Service. The cleartext SNI parameter will
document the Fronting Service. A second SNI parameter will be
transmitted in an encrypted form to the Fronting Service, and will
allow that service to redirect the connection towards the Hidden
Service.
[17:05:15] <zinid> that's all
[17:05:28] <Zash> SamWhited: PC LOAD LETTER
[17:06:09] <Zash> I should figure out how to turn arbitrary RFCs and I-Ds into epubs or something I can read on the eink thing
[17:06:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:06:17] *** Yagiza has left the room
[17:06:50] <Zash> It's a pain, but at least I don't have to deal with printers.
[17:07:06] <zinid> what is a problem to ban this "fronting" sni?
[17:07:11] <zinid> I really don't get it
[17:07:26] <Zash> Wait so it's TLS over TLS???
[17:07:27] *** Arc has left the room
[17:07:52] <jonasw> Zash, https://tools.ietf.org/ebook/
[17:07:53] <zinid> Zash: yes :)
[17:07:58] <zinid> kinda
[17:08:05] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:08:57] *** Tobias has joined the room
[17:09:42] *** Kev shows as "online"
[17:09:48] *** daniel has left the room
[17:09:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:10:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:10:30] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:10:36] <jonasw> rfc-std.epub appears to contain all the RFCs. It doesn’t take at all long to load on my machine....
[17:10:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:10:59] <Zash> I believe I have one of those already
[17:11:20] <Zash> Not the most optimal to navigate unfortunately
[17:13:00] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:14:50] *** tux has joined the room
[17:15:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:15:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:16:06] <zinid> ah, I got it, you can use any junk in the Fronting SNI
[17:16:22] <zinid> probably :)
[17:18:05] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:19:01] <moparisthebest> Zash, it's got txt/xml/pdf/html/bibtex
[17:19:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:19:58] *** Alex has left the room
[17:20:14] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:20:36] <Zash> what?
[17:20:40] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:20:58] <moparisthebest> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption/
[17:21:09] <pep.> anybody using this https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0146.html
[17:21:11] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:21:13] *** goffi has left the room
[17:21:45] <Zash> moparisthebest: those are not what I want
[17:22:25] <moparisthebest> pep., I thought council voted to deprecate that?
[17:22:27] *** daniel has left the room
[17:22:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:22:58] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[17:22:58] <pep.> Doesn't seem deprecated to me, yet. "Last Updated: 2006-03-23"
[17:22:59] *** Zash has left the room
[17:23:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:23:12] <pep.> But I could see why
[17:23:14] *** Zash shows as "online"
[17:23:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:24:34] <Zash> https://www.zash.se/upload/-kIpyeZzS4C6LOXuehhxhQ.jpg
[17:24:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[17:25:02] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:25:08] *** daniel has left the room
[17:25:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:26:07] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:26:43] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:26:45] <moparisthebest> pep., Council meeting minutes 2017-08-30:
Vote on obsoleting XEP-0146 (Remote controlling clients)
Period has expired with missing votes from Tobias and Dave.
Dave and Tobias say they are happy with their implicit +1s.
[17:27:00] <moparisthebest> so, officially, it's deprecated, I think? editors? :)
[17:27:17] <pep.> k
[17:27:18] <moparisthebest> or obsoleted
[17:27:18] *** daniel has left the room
[17:27:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:28:05] *** dwd has left the room
[17:28:21] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:28:54] *** daniel has left the room
[17:29:12] <jonasw> moparisthebest, oha
[17:29:24] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:29:25] <jonasw> I remotely recalled there was something like that, thanks for pointing this out
[17:29:34] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:30:18] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I can’t find it in the council minutes you mentioned, are you sure it’s the correct date?
[17:30:40] <jonasw> ah, nevermind
[17:30:42] <jonasw> found it
[17:30:46] <jonasw> yeah, that indeed needs Deprecation
[17:32:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:32:51] <moparisthebest> jonasw, btw if you want to add alpn support to your client I can give you a test account on my server
[17:32:58] *** fp-tester shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[17:33:22] <Zash> jonasw: btw a big reason why I wanted xep->markdown was to produce epubs using pandoc, and it works pretty well for that
[17:34:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:39:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:41:53] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:42:28] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:44:28] *** fp-tester has left the room
[17:44:45] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[17:46:07] <pep.> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html what about "Server Buddies"? Anybody using it?
[17:49:16] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[17:49:25] *** jere has left the room
[17:49:31] *** jere has joined the room
[17:49:33] <Zash> I wanna use it for all sorts of things, but haven't gotten around to it :(
[17:49:35] *** arc has joined the room
[17:49:51] <moparisthebest> pep., this references it https://blog.process-one.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fighting-XMPP-messaging-spam-thanks-to-ejabberd-API.pdf
[17:50:01] <moparisthebest> more in a 'for the future' way
[17:54:57] <pep.> cool, thanks
[17:57:50] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[17:58:12] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:59:47] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[18:07:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:07:21] *** Guus has joined the room
[18:11:38] *** zinid has left the room
[18:12:53] *** zinid shows as "online"
[18:15:24] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:17:00] *** fp-tester has left the room
[18:17:08] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[18:18:44] *** daniel has left the room
[18:18:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:22:18] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:22:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:24:10] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[18:25:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:25:45] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[18:26:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:27:44] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:27:49] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[18:27:54] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:27:59] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:27:59] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:27:59] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:02] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:02] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:03] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:04] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:05] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:28:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:31:10] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[18:31:15] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:31:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:36:22] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:36:24] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[18:38:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:39:02] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:42:24] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:42:28] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:43:03] *** Guus has left the room
[18:46:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:47:15] *** Guus has joined the room
[18:48:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:49:48] *** goffi has left the room
[18:50:30] *** goffi has joined the room
[18:50:52] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:50:53] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:51:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[18:51:43] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:52:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:54:16] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:54:22] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:54:46] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:54:46] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:55:17] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:55:36] *** daniel has left the room
[18:55:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:57:48] *** dwd has joined the room
[18:57:52] *** dwd shows as "dnd"
[18:58:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:01:38] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:01:40] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[19:06:52] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:06:52] *** arc shows as "online"
[19:07:50] *** Guus has left the room
[19:09:19] *** Guus has joined the room
[19:10:13] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:10:35] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:12:18] *** Valerian has left the room
[19:13:06] *** goffi has left the room
[19:13:42] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:17:34] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:20:54] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[19:28:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:28:25] *** Flow shows as "online"
[19:28:38] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[19:30:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:31:55] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:32:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:33:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:33:37] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:36:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:36:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:37:38] *** uc shows as "online"
[19:39:12] *** fp-tester shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:39:46] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:40:39] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:42:47] *** fp-tester shows as "online"
[19:43:20] *** winfried shows as "online"
[19:43:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:43:47] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:43:47] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:44:05] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:47:15] *** Valerian has joined the room
[19:48:07] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:49:32] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:49:35] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[19:49:44] *** McKael shows as "online"
[19:51:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:51:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:52:44] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:53:52] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:54:51] *** jere has left the room
[19:55:00] *** jere has joined the room
[19:59:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:01:30] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[20:01:52] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:01:52] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:03:50] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:03:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:04:04] *** winfried shows as "online"
[20:04:49] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:08:32] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:08:32] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:09:09] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[20:09:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:11:06] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:14:46] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:16:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:16:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:17:38] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:17:45] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:17:45] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:19:09] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[20:20:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:23:48] <Guus> I've applied the logo change in most of the obvious places
[20:23:58] <Guus> if someone finds an old logo somewhere, please let me know
[20:24:37] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:24:48] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[20:24:51] *** winfried shows as "online"
[20:24:58] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:25:53] *** edhelas has left the room
[20:28:06] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:28:09] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:33:30] *** winfried has left the room
[20:36:05] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[20:36:16] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:39:54] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:39:55] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:44:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:46:59] *** Guus has left the room
[20:49:30] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[20:49:33] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:52:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:52:48] *** tux shows as "online"
[20:53:47] *** Guus has left the room
[20:55:15] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:56:05] *** daniel has left the room
[20:58:11] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:59:42] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:01:14] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:01:14] *** arc shows as "online"
[21:03:12] *** Guus has left the room
[21:03:41] *** daniel has left the room
[21:04:36] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:05:02] *** Guus has joined the room
[21:05:09] *** Guus has left the room
[21:05:39] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:06:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:08:11] *** Guus has joined the room
[21:09:15] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:09:42] *** lovetox has joined the room
[21:10:50] *** Guus has left the room
[21:10:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:12:36] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:15:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:18:35] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:19:00] *** Guus has left the room
[21:19:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:21:01] *** daniel has left the room
[21:21:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:21:42] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:21:42] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:26:05] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:26:58] *** daniel has left the room
[21:27:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:27:07] *** lovetox has joined the room
[21:27:51] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:28:39] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:28:39] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:33:55] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:34:54] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:34:54] *** arc shows as "online"
[21:36:33] *** Zash has left the room
[21:36:38] *** lovetox has joined the room
[21:39:56] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:39:56] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:41:59] <Ge0rG> Google Image search is full of it...
[21:42:18] *** tux shows as "online"
[21:46:50] <MattJ> DMCA
[21:48:37] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:51:44] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:51:48] *** tux has left the room
[21:53:52] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:54:29] *** lovetox has joined the room
[21:54:32] *** Valerian has left the room
[21:56:59] *** nyco has left the room
[21:57:06] *** nyco shows as "online"
[21:59:40] *** dwd has left the room
[22:04:30] *** Valerian has joined the room
[22:07:14] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:10:58] *** lovetox has joined the room
[22:11:25] *** daniel has left the room
[22:12:15] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:14:10] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:16:58] *** valo has left the room
[22:17:45] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:17:49] *** valo has joined the room
[22:21:11] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:21:11] *** arc shows as "online"
[22:22:42] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:25:00] *** Valerian has left the room
[22:26:19] *** fp-tester has left the room
[22:26:34] *** fp-tester has joined the room
[22:27:02] *** daniel has left the room
[22:27:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:27:14] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:31:19] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:31:19] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:31:37] *** arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:31:37] *** arc shows as "online"
[22:41:07] *** daniel has left the room
[22:45:47] *** daniel has left the room
[22:45:54] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:46:52] *** efrit has joined the room
[22:51:28] *** waqas has left the room
[23:00:32] *** Guus has left the room
[23:01:42] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:05:31] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:08:46] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:10:35] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:10:35] *** zinid has left the room
[23:16:47] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[23:17:39] *** lovetox has left the room
[23:36:11] *** arc has left the room
[23:56:34] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:57:44] *** Guus has left the room
[23:57:58] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:58:06] *** SamWhited has joined the room