Monday, October 09, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:19:22] <vanitasvitae> > prime audience for the use of end to end encryption (drug addicts) [...]
Sad how scared of authorities he seems to be :(
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[08:20:06] <jonasw> I think in russia it’s a bit healthy to be scared of authorities......
[08:20:52] <mathieui> in western countries too, tbh
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[08:21:21] <jonasw> mathieui, I think there it’s healthy to have respect of authorities. Scared is another level.
[08:21:46] <mathieui> well, not "scared", but "expecting the worse of them at all times"
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[12:09:11] <Flow> Is there a way to retrieve all newer PubSub items after the item with ID X?
[12:09:34] <jonasw> Flow, with RSM possibly
[12:09:39] <jonasw> Result Set Management, it’s a XEP
[12:09:44] <jonasw> apparently some pubsub services support that
[12:10:14] <Flow> I don't found anything in xep59, xep60 and xep313
[12:10:34] <jonasw> wouldn’t you give the item ID as minimum and then query everything after that?
[12:10:38] <Flow> RSM appears to be more about "paging through the resulting set"
[12:10:46] <Flow> not about that particular query
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[12:11:54] <Flow> it is not necessarly clear that the RSM IDs are the same as PubSub item IDs.
[12:12:55] <jonasw> yeah
[12:13:00] <jonasw> I’ve seen them differing, too
[12:13:26] <MattJ> I think that's what https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139955456388768 was for
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[12:13:56] <intosi> MAM ids != PubSub item IDs. If only because those are not guaranteed to be unique.
[12:14:13] <Flow> too many IDs ;/
[12:14:27] <Ge0rG> Flow: that's what I said, recently.
[12:14:31] <Holger> Flow: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
[12:14:34] <Ge0rG> Flow: but you didn't like it :(
[12:14:41] <Flow> Ge0rG: out of context
[12:14:47] <Holger> Flow: Not sure (where) that's implemented, though.
[12:14:50] <intosi> On any given service, only (node id, item id) needs to uniquely point to an item. But you can republish an item with the same ID, which would defeat the purpose of the id in MAM.
[12:14:53] <Ge0rG> Flow: "too many IDs" is true irregardless of context.
[12:15:20] <Holger> Flow: Ah nonsense, that only works with a timestamp.
[12:15:59] <Flow> So there is no way to catch up on pubsub items while offline, presuambly because the assumption is that you will get the notifications about new items also while offline?
[12:16:44] <Holger> Hmm well 0312 does somewhat try to provide that, no?
[12:16:52] <Flow> I really start to dislike xep0060. Not only is there no way to reliable get the publisher's JID, you also can't do the simplest queries…
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[12:17:49] <Kev> That's why someone at the Summit was suggesting using 313 for 60 queries.
[12:19:19] <Holger> goffi's PubSub component does MAM, I think.
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[12:35:52] <vanitasvitae> jonasw, If I want to make changes to JET, shall I make these changes in xep-0391, or inbox/jet?
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[12:37:03] <Ge0rG> vanitasvitae: inbox/jet should cease to be a thing as soon as it's got a number
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[12:37:12] <vanitasvitae> okay :)
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[12:40:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no, it still exists for historical purposes
[12:40:59] <jonasw> vanitasvitae, updates against xep-0391.xml
[12:42:32] <Ge0rG> maybe we could get rid of that, we've got git history after all.
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[12:43:22] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I think the purpose is to have it on the webserver too
[12:45:18] <vanitasvitae> jonasw, I noticed, that the XEP mentions a dependency on 234 (jingle file transfer). Is this necessary? JET should work for other Jingle usecases too, even when a client does not implement 234.
[12:46:53] <vanitasvitae> Looks like I added that dependency, when the document was still titled "Jingle Encrypted Transfers"
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[12:50:24] <jonasw> vanitasvitae, I didn’t add that depedency :)
[12:50:31] <jonasw> feel free to modify that
[12:50:34] <vanitasvitae> okay
[12:50:56] <jonasw> in Experimental, you can as author basically everything
[12:51:03] <jonasw> in Experimental, you can do basically everything as author
[12:51:29] <jonasw> you just need to preserve compatibility
[12:51:56] <vanitasvitae> okay. I should also add revisions, right?
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[12:59:16] <jonasw> vanitasvitae, you SHOULD, yes. An editor will do that if you don’t.
[12:59:35] <jonasw> when you do it, you have the chance to make the revision text as meaningful as possible :)
[12:59:35] <vanitasvitae> :D I'll do you the favor :)
[13:00:26] <jonasw> if you would follow the spirit of semantic versioning when choosing the next version number, that’d be great
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[14:25:02] <Flow> So MAM with PubSub only improvement are the query conditions 'start', 'end' and 'with'. But we could specify a PubSub specific (after|before)-pubsub-item-id?
[14:26:03] <Zash> Does mam+pubsub mean mam-rsm ids are pubsub ids or?
[14:26:26] <Flow> Zash: intosi says no
[14:27:05] <Zash> Altho with pubsub ids being user-controlled ... and sometimes always "current", glhf
[14:27:06] <Flow> For the same reason I had to invent a new "value" for the "Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items" XEP
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[14:28:17] <Flow> (Of course the reasoning is not false, I just think that it is a design flaw that IDs may point to different content, instead of having an <item-retracted/> marker)
[14:28:41] <Flow> Zash "always "current""?
[14:28:49] <jonasw> Flow, maybe you could first specify your new ID for re-use by different things and then build CAP on top of that?
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[14:29:15] <Flow> jonasw: I'm not sure if it's of any use
[14:29:16] <Zash> Flow: In a bunch of PEP things, the item ID is always the string "current"
[14:29:36] <Flow> besides of the compare-and-publish case
[14:30:07] <Zash> this https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton
[14:30:28] <intosi> Zash: indeed. And just the fact that the Item ID is something the publisher can provide, instead of letting the server guarantee its uniqueness across the service, is enough to invalidate it for MAM id.
[14:30:43] <Zash> Yeah
[14:30:54] <Zash> Like with message@id
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[14:31:47] <Zash> Hm, does that mean thaw MAM+PubSub is doomed?
[14:32:23] <Flow> Zash: You can still use 'start', 'end' and 'with'
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[14:32:44] <Zash> Yes
[14:32:54] <Flow> And specify further fields for MAM+PubSub like after-pubsub-item-id
[14:33:05] <Zash> Does the pubsub service have final say over the item id?
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[14:33:22] <intosi> MAM with Pubsub has semantics that differ from Pubsub retrieval anyway, as you're likely to get the same itemid more than once in some use cases.
[14:34:14] <MattJ> I was never convinced about MAM+pubsub
[14:34:31] <Zash> MattJ: Weren't you the one who said "Just use MAM?" back then?
[14:34:44] <MattJ> niirc :)
[14:34:51] <Zash> I REMEMBER EVERYTHING .. almost
[14:35:00] <intosi> I use MAM instead of remembering everything.
[14:35:23] <Ge0rG> I use a server-side client with logging.
[14:35:27] <MattJ> ^
[14:35:29] <Ge0rG> MAM is too bumpy.
[14:36:20] <Zash> Or you can just forget everything the instant it scrolls off the screen. If it was important then they shouldn't have written it over an ephemeral instant messaging thing! :)
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[20:22:50] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[20:24:03] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:24:06] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:26:04] *** Nathan has left the room
[20:26:12] *** Nathan has joined the room
[20:26:12] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[20:26:45] *** Nathan has left the room
[20:29:02] *** daniel has joined the room
[20:30:25] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[20:30:52] *** Alex has left the room
[20:31:08] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:31:10] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[20:32:56] *** waqas has left the room
[20:32:57] *** waqas has joined the room
[20:34:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[20:34:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:37:13] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:37:15] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[20:37:24] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:38:56] *** Valerian has joined the room
[20:40:58] *** daniel has left the room
[20:41:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:44:45] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:52:06] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:52:06] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:54:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:54:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:56:19] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:58:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:04:38] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:07:17] *** alacer has joined the room
[21:12:54] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[21:14:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:15:52] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:18:35] *** Nathan has joined the room
[21:18:35] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[21:20:27] *** Nathan has left the room
[21:20:45] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:21:51] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:21:51] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:23:16] *** Nathan has joined the room
[21:23:16] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[21:24:16] *** zinid has left the room
[21:24:21] *** edhelas has left the room
[21:24:47] *** edhelas has joined the room
[21:24:48] <Nathan> ...
[21:24:53] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:25:39] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:25:43] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[21:26:07] *** zinid has left the room
[21:26:40] <edhelas> we can change the 0060
[21:27:01] *** Nathan has left the room
[21:27:10] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[21:27:15] <edhelas> it's not like we have many Pubsub + MAM implementation in the wild :p
[21:27:21] *** zinid has left the room
[21:27:25] *** zinid shows as "online"
[21:27:32] *** zinid has left the room
[21:30:39] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:30:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:31:51] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:31:51] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:35:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:36:56] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[21:37:11] *** alacer has left the room
[21:37:17] *** alacer has joined the room
[21:39:00] *** sonny has joined the room
[21:51:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:55:44] *** emxp has left the room
[21:57:25] *** sonny has left the room
[21:57:27] *** sonny has joined the room
[22:03:02] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[22:03:23] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[22:08:56] *** valo has left the room
[22:13:22] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:22:38] *** zinid has left the room
[22:24:44] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:26:26] *** daniel has left the room
[22:27:07] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:27:27] *** uc has left the room
[22:30:18] *** tux has left the room
[22:30:18] *** tux has joined the room
[22:31:27] *** Nathan has joined the room
[22:31:27] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[22:32:08] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:33:10] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[22:34:51] *** Nathan has left the room
[22:37:40] *** Nathan has joined the room
[22:37:40] *** Nathan shows as "online"
[22:37:59] *** Nathan has left the room
[22:45:21] *** stefandxm has left the room
[22:50:30] *** Nathan has joined the room
[22:50:31] *** Nathan shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:52:02] <Nathan> are there any impacts of MAM?
[22:52:46] *** Guus has left the room
[22:54:18] *** Nathan has left the room
[22:54:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:54:35] *** Nathan has joined the room
[22:54:35] *** Nathan shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:55:06] *** Nathan has left the room
[23:03:04] *** Valerian has left the room
[23:03:08] *** Guus has left the room
[23:05:19] *** Kev has left the room
[23:09:07] *** Valerian has joined the room
[23:11:12] *** Valerian has left the room
[23:11:36] *** some1namednate has joined the room
[23:12:25] *** some1namednate has left the room
[23:17:55] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[23:17:56] *** intosi has left the room
[23:17:56] *** intosi has joined the room
[23:18:25] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:18:25] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:18:25] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:18:25] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[23:18:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[23:18:52] *** alacer has joined the room
[23:23:38] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:24:39] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:24:53] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:24:53] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[23:24:53] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[23:24:53] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[23:24:55] *** Nathan has joined the room
[23:27:26] *** Nathan has left the room
[23:29:28] *** some1namednate has joined the room
[23:29:30] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:30:15] *** some1namednate has left the room
[23:32:03] *** some1namednate has joined the room
[23:32:24] *** some1namednate has left the room
[23:38:28] *** some1namednate has joined the room
[23:38:47] *** some1namednate has left the room
[23:38:56] *** Wiktor has joined the room
[23:41:33] *** Zash shows as "away"
[23:41:40] *** Zash shows as "away"
[23:43:17] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:44:47] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[23:44:48] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:48:50] *** daniel has left the room
[23:51:31] <Zash> Impacts?
[23:55:26] *** jere has left the room
[23:55:35] *** jere has joined the room
[23:55:51] *** bra shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус (неактивен)"
[23:59:08] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:59:15] *** Zash has left the room