XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2017-10-12


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  105. Flow jonasw, +1 for your XHTML-IM mail on standards@
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  108. jonasw thanks
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  120. edhelas SamWhited I just saw your mail, kind of agree with it, but be careful as XHTML-IM is also bound to other XEPs
  121. edhelas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html#referencing for example
  122. edhelas Movim doesn't handle XHTML-IM except for this use case where a BOB image (actually a "sticker") in Movim is sent
  123. jonasw oh, so there’s Yet-Another-XEP where images can be "attached" to posts.
  124. jonasw (in addition to OOB and SIMS)
  125. edhelas yeah but OOB descript a transfer method
  126. edhelas *describe
  127. edhelas sorry, BOB describe a transfer method
  128. jonasw indeed
  129. edhelas OOB and SIMS are just metadata
  130. jonasw yeah
  131. edhelas actually Movim support OOB, BOB and SIMS :D
  132. edhelas i'd like to deprecate OOB
  133. jonasw in favourof SIMS?
  134. edhelas yup
  135. jonasw I agree.
  136. edhelas https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/2637
  137. jonasw hae
  138. jonasw daniel, did you misread that issue? I don’t see edhelas mentioning BOB in the issue, but you’re referencing it. Am I missing something there?
  139. pep. jonasw: I'd like to see solutions like you suggested indeed, instead of deprecating xhtml-im
  140. jonasw voice yourself on the ML :)
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  142. pep. Will do
  143. jonasw and thanks
  144. pep. What/how/who would write that reference impl. though? XSF itself doesn't do that kind of stuff right?
  145. zinid reference implementation of what?
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  147. jonasw pep., I wouldn’t say that
  148. jonasw there are RFCs which contain a reference implementation (e.g. the Opus Codec)
  149. jonasw so I don’t see any strict reason against that
  150. jonasw ideally someone from the web development part among the XSF members (looking in the general direction of the movim people) who know JS etc. would take a shot. even more ideally, the XSF would fund a proper audit.
  151. pep. zinid: xhtml-im thread on standards@
  152. zinid ah
  153. jonasw alternatively we could take a look at existing web clients wich get this right, but it appears that there are none :)
  154. zinid not interested :)
  155. jonasw afk for a while
  156. pep. jonasw: right. I would love to see movim implement that at some point
  157. pep. Much better than parsing random /commands and still sending that as text
  158. pep. But I guess that's the extent of what's possible without that xep
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  161. edhelas I choose to not implement XHTML-IM actually, it's also to keep the UI clean
  162. edhelas and it's heavy to cleanup/process XHTML messages on the volume
  163. pep. Xhtml-im* messages
  164. Ge0rG I'm absolutely in love with poezio's /code plugin.
  165. zinid https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0223.html -- is it implemented anywhere?
  166. pep. Yep it's really nice. And it doesn't pollute people's screen when they don't do xhtml-im
  167. jonasw Ge0rG, /code is annoying in the sense that the sender chooses the colours; they may not fit with the recipients background for examle
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  169. edhelas zinid used in Movim for the bookmarks and other things
  170. edhelas Ge0rG I'm also handling /code in Movim :)
  171. zinid edhelas: and how to deal with clients who don't support it?
  172. zinid edhelas: the same thing we did with avatars: nothing? :)
  173. edhelas zinid for bookmarks ? well I don't
  174. edhelas Movim is actually not in sync with Conversations regarding bookmarks
  175. zinid and you think it's ok? :)
  176. pep. edhelas: not the same way as poezio does. You leave the /code in your body :/
  177. edhelas because I choose to not use the old prive-xml XEP
  178. pep. And it doesn't make sense on any other clieny
  179. pep. Client
  180. edhelas pep. poezio put colors on the code using xhtml-im ?
  181. pep. Yes
  182. edhelas ouch
  183. pep. Why?
  184. edhelas then no, because it will look ugly
  185. pep. Why?
  186. edhelas well movim has its own color palette and so
  187. edhelas I don't want you to impose your pink and green colors in the Movim UI
  188. pep. Sadness
  189. edhelas also I can easily colorize the code myself, a simple lib on Movim side can take care of it
  190. jonasw edhelas, allowing XHTML-Im but filtering @style seems like a reasonable thing to do
  191. jonasw you need to know that it’s code though. XHTML-IM does not allow for a <code/> tag
  192. pep. edhelas: also, you're still polluting the body with /code
  193. edhelas then XHTML-IM is not a solution for it
  194. jonasw edhelas, itym then XHTML-IM should be extended ;-)
  195. edhelas pep. I agree as well for /code, we also have /me (even if there's a XEP yeah)
  196. jonasw thinks that the handling of /me is fine.
  197. edhelas why ?
  198. edhelas having a proper XML tag would be way better
  199. pep. jonasw: handling of it is fine in implementations, but it come directly from IRC
  200. edhelas <self-quote/>
  201. pep. And I agree with edhelas here
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  203. jonasw yes, it would be better. but it works today, and breaking that would break a lot of clients for little gain
  204. edhelas if you don't like /code I understand, but let's be consistent
  205. jonasw /code is a client-side feature
  206. jonasw the "/code" is never transmitted
  207. pep. edhelas: history is never really consistent though. :/
  208. pep. Also it's not just about /code
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  210. edhelas but in general I'm against clients that are forcing the rendering of content to another client
  211. pep. It's also about all other possibilities that you're missing without xhtml-im. Or that you (somebody) are trying to reproduce badly
  212. edhelas this also applies to Atom publications in Pubsub, actually Movim is heavily filtering the XHTML tags to remove all the style and customization of the articles
  213. Ge0rG jonasw: I think that XHTML-IM 2.0 colors should be limited in the same way that the Colors XEP works. The sender defines the hue, and the displaying client is responsible for brightness and saturatio
  214. Ge0rG +n
  215. pep. edhelas: you should probably detail this statement, I'm sending you messages forcing you to display them. (Unless you ignore them)
  216. edhelas I'm ignoring xhtml-im
  217. edhelas only use the body tag
  218. edhelas XMPP is a transport protocol, like HTTP is transporting HTML
  219. pep. Ge0rG: that sounds nice
  220. edhelas the forating rules of HTML/CSS/JS is another playground
  221. edhelas *formating
  222. edhelas to XMPP can tell me if a message contains code, like HTTP tell me if an answer contains text or images
  223. edhelas but doesn't tell me how to format thoses
  224. jonasw Ge0rG, +1
  225. pep. Well xhtml-im doesn't, you choose
  226. jonasw I thought about that when I wrote my reply, but I think that’s another battle.
  227. pep. edhelas: it's all about semantics
  228. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah. But that should work on most neutral backgrounds, and with non-neutral backgrounds the displying client has the option to tune the curves accordingly.
  229. pep. XHTML is, really
  230. jonasw Ge0rG, yap
  231. jonasw pep., +1, which is why I feel we should keep XHTML-Im
  232. pep. edhelas: which is why, for example, the /code movim leaves in the body is meaningless to me, I don't know what to do with it if I don't use movim
  233. pep. (I agree that the xep could be extended)
  234. edhelas sure
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  236. jonasw edhelas, re bookmarks and movim, does movim use publish-options or otherwise require that the node is configured correctly or would it publish the bookmarks for everyone to read if the pubsub service doesn’t support the correct access model?
  237. edhelas jonasw it set the configuration of the node on the first start
  238. edhelas set on whitelist actually
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  240. jonasw mhm
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  242. edhelas same for other nodes like avatar, vcard4, geoloc, microblog and subscriptions, with their own config
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  291. Holger XEP-0357 says that the app can include arbitrary payload for the app server using <publish-options/>. XEP-0060 says that a "pubsub service advertising support for publishing options MUST reject publications with unknown fields." So I can't use a standard PubSub service to implement an app server, right?
  292. jonasw depends
  293. jonasw is "unknown fields" qualified in the XEP?
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  295. jonasw otherwise, one could argue that the app server understands those proprietary XEP—0357 fields
  296. Kev I'm not convinced that pubsub is actually the right mechanism for this anyway.
  297. Holger I'm ranting against the PubSub syntax for push notifications since forever :-)
  298. Holger It should just use a plain message.
  299. Holger jonasw: "Fields and their behaviour MUST be registered with the XMPP Registrar." -- https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-publish-options
  300. jonasw Holger, aww
  301. MattJ That's a silly requirement
  302. MattJ Like saying you MUST use standards
  303. jonasw kind of
  304. Holger MattJ: No it lets clients rely on behavior.
  305. Holger MattJ: Publish options are being used to make sure a node is not world-readable, for example.
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  308. MattJ Yes, rejecting unknown fields makes sense
  309. MattJ But requiring that every field MUST be registered I'm less sure of
  310. Holger If you guys are just saying that a non-standard service may accept the 0357 options then that's what I'm saying.
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  312. zinid MattJ: if it's not registered, then how to federate?
  313. Holger You can't use a standard service but must build your own PubSub thing to create an app server.
  314. Holger I think you must do so anyway if you actually need to parse those custom options (such as the secret).
  315. MattJ A non-standard service is a non-standard service and doesn't need to follow a MUST in a standard, because it's non-standard
  316. Holger So basically I'm back to "don't use PubSub syntax".
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  318. MattJ zinid, there are cases where federation is not a concern
  319. Holger MattJ: Right. So we shouldn't change the standard to also standardize non-standard behavior.
  320. zinid MattJ: ok, but in that case you don't give a damn whether there is MUST or not
  321. Holger Exactly.
  322. Holger <MattJ> Like saying you MUST use standards
  323. Holger 0060 doesn't do that.
  324. Holger It just says "if you follow 0060 and announce publish-options support, you must behave as defined". This only works if only registered options are supported.
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  327. Holger I.e. if you reject options that aren't registered.
  328. zinid > Like saying you MUST use standards I think it's like "you MUST use standards to federate/interop"
  329. dwd has left
  330. MattJ Yes, to federate/interop you generally must use standards
  331. MattJ But this is a case where you don't, right? :)
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  333. Ge0rG If people don't bother to use standards, they won't bother more if the standards write that you MUST use standards.
  334. Holger MattJ: The idea is that you could use a standard PubSub service.
  335. zinid right, so Holger is right: we shouldn't use pubsub for this
  336. Holger MattJ: ... and have the app server subscribe to that.
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  338. Holger MattJ: That PubSub service would be a federating/interoperating 0060 service.
  339. Holger MattJ: At least that's how Lance argued back when I argued against PubSub :-)
  340. MattJ If the thing doing the publishing knows that the thing accepting the publish supports a certain option in a certain way, it doesn't matter if it's an XSF-blessed standard, is what I'm saying
  341. zinid why do we need so complex pubsub, it's kinda relay, what for?
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  343. zinid I mean why would an app server subscribe to it instead of directly receiving stanzas?
  344. Holger MattJ: I'm talking about "the thing accepting the publish".
  345. MattJ which has to understand the options, no?
  346. Holger MattJ: Lance said he's using PubSub to make it possible for a standard publish service to be that thing.
  347. Holger MattJ: I'm saying this won't work.
  348. MattJ Example option?
  349. Holger MattJ: Yes. The thing has to understand non-standard options.
  350. Holger 'secret'
  351. MattJ Is this something you made up for your implementation, or is it in the XEP?
  352. Holger MattJ: Example 13 in XEP-0357.
  353. Holger MattJ: It's just an example. 0357 says I may include arbitrary options. 0060 says a standard PubSub service MUST reject them.
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  355. MattJ Well a simple solution is to register the option ;)
  356. dwd has left
  357. Holger No.
  358. Holger You want to allow for arbitrary options.
  359. Holger ChatSecure uses some other stuff.
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  361. MattJ I still don't see a problem
  362. Holger MattJ: As you said this is really just communication between the app and the non-standard app server.
  363. MattJ So, you're using an off-the-shelf pubsub service
  364. Holger MattJ: So it just makes no sense to use PubSub for this.
  365. MattJ and it doesn't understand your custom option, but what is it meant to do with it?
  366. Holger MattJ: That's the next problem, which is why I'm saying this won't work anyway :-)
  367. zinid MattJ: but you need to patch the server in order to accept options in order to be passed them to the app server
  368. Holger The node subscriber won't see the option.
  369. MattJ Right
  370. Holger MattJ: In practice the problem is that people try to build an app server on top of the existing PubSub code, because that's what the XEP suggests.
  371. Steve Kille has joined
  372. Holger MattJ: Then I tell them that this isn't possible because it just looks similar to PubSub but is slightly non-standard.
  373. MattJ Ok, I see better now
  374. MattJ You're complaining as an XMPP server developer, not as an app server developer
  375. Holger Well.
  376. zinid what's the difference? :)
  377. Holger Sure my immediate issue is that I want to get rid of the support requests :-) But I think the app server developer will also appreciate not running into the problem.
  378. MattJ Sure
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  380. Holger As I said I think the proper fix is just using <message/> syntax. But if for some reason (which?) PubSub is preffered, use some other container for the custom stuff, not <publish-options/>.
  381. Ge0rG I also had that thought about "why not messages" when reading Push XEP back then
  382. Holger Lance' initial 0357 draft did just that, FWIW ...
  383. Ge0rG maybe Lance knows why it was changed, then?
  384. Holger https://github.com/legastero/customxeps/blob/gh-pages/extensions/push.md
  385. Ge0rG oh, "push token maintenance" is another thing I forgot on the device-identifier mail.
  386. Holger <Holger> Lance: What's the reason for using PubSub as opposed to plain messages to talk to the app server, BTW? <Lance> Holger: existing protocol, terminology, and semantics
  387. Holger There you go.
  388. zinid great
  389. zinid we can use pubsub for messages and presences btw
  390. zinid because why not? existing protocol!
  391. Holger I would say a <message/> offers all those features as well :-)
  392. Ge0rG Time to ask on standards@?
  393. Kev We can use pubsub syntax for not-default-xep60 services just fine, if we want to (e.g. 369).
  394. Kev And I think there's an argument for doing so. But if we go that route we need to be clear that it's not a standard pubsub service you're using.
  395. MattJ zinid, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0207.html
  396. zinid MattJ: I know :)
  397. Holger Kev: Same syntax, slightly different semantics sounds awesome to me.
  398. Ge0rG The road to hell is paved with good intentions?
  399. zinid especially that in fact we're not reusing *existing* technology, where are using a fork
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  416. Alex have just seen that many of teh projects are gone on the client/server/library page, because of the renew data. I don't think this is helpful for us as a XMPP community
  417. Holger "the renew data"?
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  419. Alex Holger: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/README.rst
  420. jonasw Alex, anything specific you’re missing?
  421. Alex *last_renewed* field
  422. Alex jonasw: of course, I think the libraries page was 4x the size before :-)
  423. jonasw Alex, sure, but were those maintained?
  424. jonasw unmaintained libraries may be worse than no libraries
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  426. Alex I don't agree on that
  427. Holger Alex: Seriously? Someone new to XMPP should wade through an endless list of dead projects?
  428. Alex one of the most used JS libraries for example, Strophe
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  430. jonasw Alex, if strophe.js missed the fact that they need to renew and they’re actively maintained, I think someone should tell them :)
  431. Holger (Huh there's an AstraChat server?)
  432. Alex Strope is only 1 example, there are many others which are missing
  433. Flow it would be nice to get an e-mail that my project is about to disappear
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  435. Flow but other then that, the new system is far better then listing a bunch of dead projects
  436. Alex Sleek is another famous Python XMPP lib which is missing
  437. Flow bear ^
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  440. Alex when I am new to XMPP and browse this pages I don't see many options, which is not positive
  441. jonasw huh
  442. jonasw Alex, many options and trying three which are unmaintained may be worse?
  443. jonasw should’ve watched out for sleek
  444. Alex jonasw: I don't think that most of the projects which are gone now were not maintained, but that is just an assumption
  445. Flow How about sorting by last update or something like that?
  446. Alex we can send a mail to standard, jdev and members and ask teh authors to renew their active projects
  447. jonasw sorting by a non-obvious thing seems bad
  448. jonasw Alex, we did that
  449. jonasw at least jdev I think
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  451. Alex ok, mnissed that probably :-)
  452. jonasw Subject: [jdev] XMPP Software Developers: Action Required
  453. Ge0rG Here is a nice one regarding the brokenness of TCP and ICMP on the public Internet. The main focus is fragmentation, but the problems stated also apply to detection of stale TCP connections: https://blog.cloudflare.com/ip-fragmentation-is-broken/
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  517. zinid Ge0rG: nobody cares, they just invent crap like http2 instead of really fixing things
  518. zinid Just like XSF 😂 Because interop
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  520. Ge0rG it's even worse.
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  542. dwd Can someone not using Gajim write something with *bold* and /italic/ things in, please?
  543. Flow has joined
  544. Ge0rG dwd: at your service. Italics doesn't work though.
  545. mathieui this is not /italic/ and neither that one is *bold*
  546. Ge0rG Damn https://dev.louiz.org/issues/2722.
  547. Ge0rG Damn <https://dev.louiz.org/issues/2722>.
  548. dwd Ge0rG, Yours came as XHTML-IM, I think.
  549. Ge0rG mathieui: "at" was bold.
  550. mathieui Ge0rG, yours, yes
  551. dwd mathieui, Whereas yours was rendered as italic and bold for me, Markdown-like.
  552. jubalh has left
  553. mathieui jonasw, err, I would like xmpp: links in href :p
  554. Ge0rG dwd: ah, so you were asking for markdown in 'body' and not for XHTML-IM formatted.
  555. dwd Ge0rG, Indeed, sorry.
  556. Kev I like the idea of markdown in XMPP (I'm not entirely sure that I didn't originate *stuff* in XMPP with Psi), but I really dislike not having a standard. So I think we'd have to actually define a MD standard ourselves (which we pretty much had to with XHTML-IM, of course).
  557. Ge0rG so we are reinventing XHTML-IM without XML now?
  558. SamWhited I don't especially care what a new thing looks like, but I do like the idea of it being some sort of plain text formatting in <body> as opposed to a separate <fancybody> element or whatever.
  559. Ge0rG people will just plug-in their favorite markdown parser and your body texts will end up mutilated and you will still end up being pwned.
  560. SamWhited It keeps things simple to have one version of the message. One place to encrypt when doing E2E, no risk of something malicious sending a different plain text / non-plaintext version so that two different clients have tow representations of the conversastion, etc.
  561. Ge0rG SamWhited: there is no amount of specification that will prevent developers from doing stupid things.
  562. alacer has joined
  563. SamWhited Ge0rG: I agree. What's your point?
  564. SamWhited Security issues will always exist, so we shouldn't even try to mitigate any of them?
  565. Ge0rG SamWhited: XHTML-IM is good as it is.
  566. SamWhited Except for the history of insecure implementations.
  567. Ge0rG SamWhited: I have a dozen of CVEs for people not reading the Security Considerations of 0280.
  568. Ge0rG I want to burn Carbons with fire, but for completely different reasons.
  569. Valerian has joined
  570. Ge0rG SamWhited: by replacing XHTML-IM with markdown, you will keep the exact same security problems.
  571. mathieui most markdown implementations even allow raw html right in the plaintext, so I don’t see how that solves the "developer get it wrong" part
  572. Ge0rG And probably add some more.
  573. Ge0rG what mathieui said.
  574. SamWhited Ge0rG: That's why I'm not arguing that we should use markdown.
  575. SamWhited Just that we should obsolete XHTML-IM.
  576. mathieui yeah, that’s what SamWhited made a point in the thread to keep it about deprecating xhtml-im
  577. mathieui yeah, that’s why SamWhited made a point in the thread to keep it about deprecating xhtml-im
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  579. Ge0rG SamWhited: Council just refused to deprecate 136 despite it not being a replacement/alternative to 313.
  580. SamWhited Ge0rG: I know, it made me sad. This is a security issue though, which I think makes it slightly different and more pressing.
  581. Kev I don't see a particular need to deprecate XHTML-IM. I think *anything* involving markup being injected into a DOM is going to see people doing stupid things.
  582. Kev But I do think that it's woefully inadequate at protecting diligent devs from things they haven't considered.
  583. Ge0rG XHTML-IM is not perfect, it's got some ugly warts. But it (or some other markup XEP) has its place, and anything that you can come up with as an alternative will have the same or worse security problems.
  584. SamWhited I disagree, it would be quite easy to design a spec with the same level of functionality but where it required active effort on the developers part to introduce the same security problems.
  585. Ge0rG SamWhited: maybe you can write that spec up, then?
  586. SamWhited It doesn't need to be impossible, it just needs to not be the "default".
  587. Ge0rG and then implement it in a bunch of widely-used XMPP clients.
  588. mathieui e.g. if we design a new markup language with a secure reference implementation
  589. SamWhited Ge0rG: no, I'm not interested. I'm just interested in getting rid of XHTML-IM.
  590. Ge0rG And then ask again for deprecation of XHTML-IM?
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  592. mathieui I remember embedding javascript within my nickname in jappix that would dump account passwords to a MUC
  593. mathieui no need for xhtml-im there
  594. SamWhited Yah, I've found plenty of those too, they're unrelated though.
  595. Ge0rG Yeah, so many places for XSS.
  596. mathieui they have the same root issue: the web
  597. SamWhited mathieui: If you have a proposal for fixing the root issue, I'm all ears :)
  598. mathieui :D
  599. SamWhited I would love to fix "the web" :)
  600. Zash SamWhited: So what you really wanna do is deprecated teh web! :)
  601. Zash Let's do tha!
  602. Alex use markdown :-)
  603. Ge0rG Yeah, let's approach the W3C with that.
  604. Kev SamWhited: I do think that having even a strawman that demonstrates that it's straightforward to write something better would help with those people who think that replacing XHTML-IM with something else is likely to also be easy to carelessly introduce vulns.
  605. SamWhited *sigh* yah, maybe you're right.
  606. Ge0rG Kev: even if there was a strawman, we still have the wide deployment problem.
  607. Ge0rG XHTML-IM is supported over a pretty large client base, as opposed to non-markdown-strawman.
  608. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, but one bridge at a time.
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  610. Flow <message><markup-hint lang="commonmark:1"/>…</message>
  611. SamWhited I think you are probably right, that would go a long ways towards convincing some folks, I'm just not sure that I want to put in the work on that. I'm not interested in even having a replacement since I'd probably never implement it myself (not that I think one shouldn't be made, I understand that lots of deployments need basic formatting)
  612. Ge0rG Also related: https://blog.plan99.net/its-time-to-kill-the-web-974a9fe80c89
  613. SamWhited But I do want to deprecate it, so maybe I need to just waste some time on a thing I'll never use to convince people. I'm torn.
  614. SamWhited s/deprecate/obsolete/ (I'm trying to be precise about my language, but I still mix those two up constantly)
  615. Ge0rG I want to deprecate GC1.0. And then some.
  616. Kev Ge0rG: I think I proposed that onlist as an alternative to 2 or 3 or whatever teh number was, and I don't remember any pushback.
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  618. Ge0rG Kev: it was brought up at the last-but-one council and got vetoed immediately, IIRC
  619. Ge0rG Kev: you also still wanted to provide more alternatives to 1-2-3.
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  621. Kev Ge0rG: I don't think I did. I think my alternative was to do 2 or 3, whichever the one I said I liked was, and to get rid of gc1.
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  624. Ge0rG Kev: oh, sorry. I must be misremembering then.
  625. Kev And I might misremember, but I don't recall anyone objecting to it in the thread.
  626. Ge0rG Maybe because it was TLDR, once again.
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  630. Ge0rG Kev: oh, there it is: "Georg’s started a worthwhile discussion here, but I’m sure these aren’t the only 3 options we can consider."
  631. Ge0rG Kev: you also liked (2), which was the new-iq-type.
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  634. Ge0rG but I'm interested in the other options before writing a diff to 0045.
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  636. Kev Ge0rG: Did I not follow-up by saying that I thought that if gc1 was the reason that (3) was better than (2) we should kill gc1?
  637. Kev I accept there's a very real possibility that I'm simply going mad.
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  640. Ge0rG Kev: you ended up discussing with Zash whether we can reliably obtain statistics on "intended GC1 joins" vs "presence updates misunderstood as GC1 joins"
  641. Ge0rG which we can't.
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  643. Zash Why not?
  644. sonny has joined
  645. Ge0rG Zash: how?
  646. Ge0rG Kev: I've long believed that every person participating in this chat room and the related organizations is affected by a certain kind of madness.
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  648. Zash Ge0rG: Look at presence sent to a MUC. Does it have the <x>? Is the user already in the room? Log that.
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  651. Ge0rG Zash: and then compare that with <x>-enabled presence from the same full JID in the last X hours?
  652. Kev Zash: That's not the question.
  653. Kev Zash: That's just listing which presences don't have <x/> it's not telling you if it's a gc1 join or a presence update.
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  661. SamWhited Sorry, got pulled away… RE GC1.0 I agree, let's deprecate it. I don't think it was vetoed, I think we just decided to get more feedback on list first, but I don't have the minutes in front of me.
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  663. Ge0rG wow, just got a presence from somebody in the form of "phone." + [68 characters that look like base64, including slashes]
  664. Ge0rG the madness is rising.
  665. Ge0rG SamWhited: yeah, the final decision was to get some list discussion, but there were some proponents of keeping GC1, surprisingly
  666. Zash Madness
  667. Zash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH7fIkV8nsk
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  674. jonasw SamWhited, you quoted me rather unfairly on the ML. I won’t point it out there, because I don’t believe you did that on purpose.
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  676. SamWhited jonasw: Did I? Sorry about that
  677. SamWhited I removed the extra, but I didn't think I took you out of context or anything
  678. jonasw you removed the part where I said "plus providing a reference implementation"
  679. SamWhited Yah, I know, I wasn't responding to that part
  680. SamWhited It's unrelated to further restricting the subset of HTML involved
  681. jonasw not entirely, it’ll simplify the reference implementation.
  682. SamWhited ah, I see, restricting the HTML was about making the reference implementation simpler? Yah, I misunderstood what you meant
  683. SamWhited Either way, I don't think a reference implementation helps either
  684. jonasw all implementations, but also the reference implementation, because I agree that simply changing the spec won’t solve a thing
  685. jonasw I strongly think so
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  688. SamWhited I think adding a reference implementation won't solve a thing (although I'm certainly not against it, if we can have an implementation that we can more or less guarantee is secure, maybe at least a few things will use it and not be broken out of the box)
  689. SamWhited But not everyone will use it, so I don't think it really helps
  690. jonasw if we link the reference implementation prominently in the XEP and doesn’t have any non-DOM dependencies, I think new implementations certainly will use it.
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  692. SamWhited Yah, some will and that's nice, but not all will
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  694. jonasw meh
  695. SamWhited It doesn't really solve the problem, just puts a bandaid on it for a few implementations (which isn't bad, and I think you should totally do it, but I think we should still obsolete the spec either way)
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  697. Ge0rG There are so many places to inject code into the DOM of a JavaScript XMPP client, XHTML-IM is just one of them.
  698. jonasw see, my main issue is that I really don’t want to see that we use plain text markup when we have the opportunity to use structured markup (be it XHTML-IM or anything else)
  699. SamWhited Ge0rG: yes… again I don't understand your point though: security is hard, so let's not fix any of the problems?
  700. SamWhited Other places where DOM injection is possible aren't related to this discussion
  701. jonasw I think that providing a reference implementation is the best we can and should do.
  702. SamWhited jonasw: I'm not 100% sure but I *think* I agree with you. Deprecating XHTML-IM doesn't mean we're going to use plain text markup in the <body> though.
  703. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm just saying that security-ignorant developers will keep writing vulnerable XMPP clients, with or without XHTML-IM
  704. jonasw SamWhited, what else are we going to do? The alternative will be to reinvent XHTML-IM.
  705. SamWhited Ge0rG: Yes, I agree. I don't see what that has to do with anything though.
  706. SamWhited jonasw: Yes, reinvent it, but reinvent it in such a way that it's not HTML.
  707. Ge0rG SamWhited: I think my slightly exaggerated point is: you can't make webchat more secure by removing XHTML-IM.
  708. jonasw We shouldn’t sacrifice something that indeed works, can be made secure with reasonable effort (if we abolish @style, which we totally should do), to make in total only a few implementations transition from not-secure to secure (only a few will transition by obsoleting XHTML-IM, because many will have other XSS issues)
  709. jonasw SamWhited, people will simply patch tag names and embed it in the DOM.
  710. jonasw if it’s more complicated than that, people will not implement it.
  711. jonasw (and if people simply embed an XML tree into the dom, havoc will be wreaked)
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  713. SamWhited jonasw: Your'e assuming @style is the only problem. That's not the problem that I've seen, the problem that I've seen won't be solved by further restricting what HTML is allowed.
  714. Ge0rG Maybe we should provide an XSS bot that will join your MUC with an evil name, post evil messages and change the subject to some <script> tag?
  715. SamWhited People are allowing <script> tags and the like, it doesn't matter how much more stuff you take out, they'll still just allow <script> tags.
  716. jonasw SamWhited, I’m keeping to mention @style, because @style is really really hard to fix.
  717. jonasw the other parts are more or less a piece of cake.
  718. SamWhited jonasw: Yah, I agree with you we should take it out. I just don't agree with you that it would solve anything.
  719. Ge0rG SamWhited: the problem you are trying to fix is ignorant developers?
  720. SamWhited Ge0rG: "fix" is the wrong word, but essentially yes. We can't "solve" all the security problems, we can never stop developers from doing a dumb thing and allowing a <script> tag. We *can* make it harder to do that by default.
  721. jonasw SamWhited, with @style, it is entirely unrealistic that any implementation is safe, because nobody will parse CSS.
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  723. SamWhited jonasw: I'm not arguing against that. By all means, remove style.
  724. SamWhited But that's another orthogonal problem.
  725. jonasw only if you’re set on obsoleting XHTML-IM, which I’m not ;-).
  726. dwd has left
  727. SamWhited It's orthogonal either way. The problem that I've seen, over and over again, is that people say "it's HTML, so take it out of the <html> element and stick it in the dom" or they have some subtle bug in how they do their whitelisting that allows it to be bypassed. Removing style won't solve either of those things (though again, I'm not disagreeing, it's something we should do to help existing implementations)
  728. dwd has left
  729. jonasw okay, I see your point.
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  870. Link Mauve « 08:39:27 jonasw> you need to know that it’s code though. XHTML-IM does not allow for a <code/> tag », it totally does, fyi.
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  872. Link Mauve I should totally improve poezio’s XHTML-IM module to run pygment on incoming code!
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  875. Zash I'm almost surprised that you haven't already
  876. mathieui since 2003!
  877. mathieui we’re way behind
  878. mathieui note to self: DoS Link Mauve by pasting perl code in MUCs
  879. Zash Does <code> not have a language attr tho?
  880. Link Mauve mathieui, you know you don’t need anything fancy to DoS my server. :p
  881. mathieui right.
  882. Link Mauve Zash, hmm, maybe I’d have to write a XEP extending 0071, maybe with a standardised class attribute or something?
  883. Zash Maybe you already discussed this, but what about all the ways CSS can invoke more resources?
  884. Zash Link Mauve: Standardized classes would sorta make sense I guess
  885. Zash Eg like vcard thing
  886. mathieui yeah, a class preset would actually solve all the portability issues of 0071, along with solving the potential for CSS abuse
  887. Zash Way past brain-works-o'clock
  888. Zash microformats!
  889. Link Mauve Zash, don’t say that, I just woke up for the fourth time of the day!
  890. mathieui yes but you didn’t wake up yesterday, so it evens out
  891. Link Mauve True.
  892. Zash I haven't woken up today.
  893. Zash MMmm GMT+2 jokes ftw
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  908. Zash makes xep-0071.epub and dumps to e-ink-thingy for later reading
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  911. Zash Uh, I should make an email-to-epub thing
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