Monday, October 16, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[05:01:08] <zinid> RFCs like 7564 make me cry
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[05:01:30] <zinid> instead of providing a simple pseudo-code there are 40 pages of stupid definitions
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[05:16:53] <fippo> feel free to submit a draft doing so.
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[05:43:54] <edhelas> lskdjf no, please no, it's like saying that you don't need proper validation in HTML/JS because the database can handle that
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[05:44:28] <edhelas> SamWhited that would be nice yes :)
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[05:48:47] <jonasw> pep., XEP-0392 offers a way to adapt the colors to a given background.
[05:48:53] <jonasw> or overall theme tint
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[06:25:02] <Syndace> Is "Remko" here, the dude that wrote a mail about OMEMO key agreement recently?
[06:25:12] <jonasw> Syndace, sometimes
[06:25:18] <jonasw> yesterday or on saturday he was
[06:25:30] <jonasw> why are you asking?
[06:26:29] <Syndace> I read a lot about OMEMO recently and I want to discuss his question a little while not spamming the mailing list with probably unqualified comments :D
[06:26:59] <Syndace> is his nick in here remko aswell?
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[06:28:43] <jonasw> yupp
[06:28:57] <jonasw> Syndace, there’s always the option of replying only to him
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[07:58:33] <pep.> jonasw: re color generation, nice
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[08:07:56] <Syndace> jonasw, I decided to risk it and answered the list ^^
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[09:03:53] <Flow> Syndace, good question you posted :)
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[14:32:55] <SamWhited> edhelas: the little tool I use isn't actually on this machine, but here's a quick one that just checks if the first argument is a valid JID: https://gist.github.com/SamWhited/faaa24d72e06903122152a5a17984fe7
[14:35:52] <SamWhited> Note that by default that will be using the newer version of PRECIS from RFC 8264 and Unicode 10, but there shouldn't be any major differences.
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[18:57:26] <pep.> https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html Is that Flow? What happens if a client doesn't announce any supported markup? will the other client send non-formatted plaintext? Or the same but untagged?
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[19:03:25] <jonasw> MattJ, lovetox is having issues joining the channel, possibly the stalled s2s bug. he’s in jdev. Care to debug?
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[19:48:56] <Flow> pep.,: what do you think would be best?
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[19:49:44] <pep.> Is there a need for the XEP?
[19:50:07] <Flow> pep I obviously think so, as otherwhise I wouldn't have go through the effort writting it
[19:50:30] <pep.> Well the example I showed above kind of defeats the point
[19:50:49] <Flow> pep., your question?
[19:50:53] <pep.> yes
[19:51:21] <Flow> pep., I don't see how it defates the point
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[19:51:42] <pep.> The markup is going to make it _as is_ to the other side in any case
[19:51:45] <Zash> With MAM, carbons and whatever, you have no way of knowing if all the clients that receive it supports it.
[19:52:27] <Flow> Ok, so maybe it's time to provide some motivation for BMH
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[19:52:49] <Flow> I was going to wait until the offical editor annoucement, but it looks like people get into the wrong direction about what it's about
[19:52:53] <Zash> It would let those who understand it know for sure that it is what the sender intended.
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[19:53:07] <Flow> Zash, that!
[19:53:25] <pep.> And why not xhtml-im?
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[19:53:39] <pep.> You're assuming it's already out, right?
[19:53:42] <Flow> So BMH does not try to be a successor of XHTML-IM
[19:53:47] <Flow> It's not even meant as intermediate solution
[19:54:08] <Flow> The case for BMH is bridges which take Markup formated text, and send it via XMPP to an XMPP client
[19:54:44] <Flow> For example a Stackoverflow bot, which sends you an question and a answer
[19:54:48] <Flow> Or a discourse interface
[19:54:51] <Zash> Thing could in theory have serverside translation into XHTML-IM or XEP-future-markup-thing
[19:55:10] <Flow> Or a Bot which sends you status information with headings and sections and stuff
[19:55:15] <pep.> well the gateway/bridge would know markups the other side sends, and could translate it into XHTML-IM
[19:55:24] <pep.> I'm not sure more is needed
[19:55:30] <Flow> If you client doesn't know the markup language, fine, it will still display the text more or less nicely
[19:56:00] <Flow> If it does understand the markup hinted markup language, it can throw it into a converter and show it in a richful way
[19:56:18] <Zash> So it's equivalent to the Content-Type header in email
[19:56:22] <Flow> pep., Not every client supports XHTML-IM
[19:56:23] <Zash> Which is fine.
[19:56:34] <pep.> Flow, the more reasons to implement it
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[19:56:41] <pep.> Not every client supports $MARKUP
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[19:56:53] <Zash> Flow: pep.s point of the discovery section being fairly pointless stands tho
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[19:57:48] <Zash> OTOH it is mandatory in XEPs
[19:57:49] <Flow> Zash, yep, the discovery was just a goodie I wanted to take along
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[20:02:08] <pep.> I'm still not sure I see the point. This can be totally covered with xhtml-im
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[20:22:02] <pep.> Flow, please do add some more details on the XEP so we can comment on it before it's accepted
[20:22:05] <pep.> :)
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[20:26:36] <Flow> pep: I've responded on the editor announcement
[20:27:04] <Flow> Also the latest snapshot of the xep may contains more backstory: http://geekplace.eu/xeps/xep-bmh/xep-bmh.html
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[20:27:37] <Flow> Meh, a 2 week last call for so important cornerstones like MAM feels a little bit to short
[20:28:33] <pep.> thanks
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[20:36:12] <pep.> I'd like to make motivation the first requirement of a protoXEP :x
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[20:50:31] <Zash> Isn't that usually supposed to be covered in the first section?
[20:50:48] <pep.> Well apparently not enough
[20:50:49] <Zash> Like, a problem statement or somesuch
[20:52:49] <pep.> "Why is this needed", "Are there existing XEPs trying to solve the same issue or similar/related ones", "How does that compare to these XEPs", etc.
[20:53:26] <Flow> please direct blame to the lazy me :)
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[20:54:58] <pep.> Flow, I can see a point for your XEP here, just that it doesn't really come at a good time, with the latest events around XHTML-IM and people trying to kill it
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[20:56:59] <pep.> Also I fear people are going to abuse it
[20:57:06] <pep.> And give up on xhtml-im for this
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[22:51:45] <Zash> Was there an easy way to get schemas out of XEPs?
[22:53:53] <waqas> Zash: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.
[22:56:59] <waqas> Zash: You can probably use one of the xpath CLI tools to grab this: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/xep-0016.xml#L856
[22:57:40] <waqas> No idea if this stuff is consistent across XEPs
[22:58:14] <Zash> In this specific instance I'm interested in getting schemas out of XEP60
[22:58:49] <Zash> And I seem to have repressed^W forgotten how XPath works
[22:59:22] <waqas> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/xep-0060.xml#L6522
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[22:59:56] <waqas> Copy paste, and split on the CDATA sections
[23:01:46] <waqas> Oh, it uses <xs:import /> to reference an external 'http://xmpp.org/schemas/x-data.xsd' too
[23:02:43] <Zash> Hm, I have this strange memory of fighting xpath or xml search tools in order to get them to spit out bare text, and giving up beacuse it's impossible.
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[23:30:20] <Zash> Why is {pubsub#errors}unsupported a MUST?
[23:31:38] <Zash> Why does the implementation need to know all the things it doesn't do?
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[23:33:33] <Zash> And isn't this the job of disco#info?
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