Tuesday, October 17, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:16:19] <Flow> hmm, I didn't receive pep.'s mail to standards@
[07:16:44] <Flow> ahh, dwd points out it's a DMARC issue
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[07:27:02] <jonasw> the list needs reconfiguring then
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[07:27:54] <jonasw> mailman can re-write DMARC-affected emails to let them pass filters downstream, at the cost of usability
[07:28:10] <pep.> Flow: ah right it's probably me
[07:28:17] <pep.> I need to fix it
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[07:35:16] <dwd> jonasw, No, it's doing exactly what it should. DMARC is broken, that's all.
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[07:37:03] <pep.> My dmarc settings are too strict
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[07:37:27] <pep.> Dkim is borken and I need to fix it
[07:37:39] <dwd> DMARC is just broken.
[07:37:48] <pep.> Why?
[07:38:17] <dwd> Created by the operators of Google Groups, Yahoo Groups, Facebook, etc... They had no interest in making mailing lists work, it didn't fit their business model.
[07:38:31] <dwd> And they did it outside the IETF and then forced it on everyone as a fait accompli.
[07:38:51] *dwd is using a French phrase in celebration of being in France. I think.
[07:39:20] <Zash> Wasn't DKIM a Yahoo thing too?
[07:39:22] <pep.> Dmarc is not the spec issue here, it's just a reporting standard
[07:39:42] <pep.> Well + other niceties
[07:39:52] *Ge0rG gabs popcorn
[07:40:15] <Zash> pep.: Every time I read the DMARC spec it tells me that DKIM and SPF are both mandatory to deploy.
[07:40:27] <pep.> the issue*
[07:40:39] <pep.> Zash: no they're not
[07:40:53] <pep.> But yes you should probably
[07:40:57] <Zash> I should not
[07:41:02] <Zash> I tried
[07:41:09] <pep.> If you want dmarc to be useful
[07:41:17] <Zash> Mailing lists all borked
[07:41:19] <Kev> DMARC can be useful? :p
[07:41:39] <pep.> MLs are borked indeed :/
[07:42:01] <Zash> pep.: That's not how blame works on the internet!
[07:42:05] <pep.> But I would say it's more of a dkim issue
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[07:43:18] <pep.> You require so much energy from me at not even 9am.. Still in the bed
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[07:43:56] <Zash> While on the topic of email. dwd, your email where you told pep. about the dmarc issue, the text version is bad.
[07:44:16] <dwd> Quite possibly. Dodgy android gmail client.
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[07:44:38] <Zash> It's pretty much identical to the email replied to
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[07:45:44] <Zash> Took me forever to figure out that the text was quoted, because the only sign of that was a <div> in the html version.
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[07:46:54] <dwd> I really need to switch to Fastmail or something. Partly inertia (I'd need to switch domain) and partly cost.
[07:47:30] *Ge0rG is selfhosting email. Not as bad as some people claim.
[07:49:41] <Zash> Apparently the trick to self-hosting is getting a gmail account.
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[07:51:09] <pep.> I need to mitigate the spam problem a bit, that's the most annoying
[07:51:29] <pep.> Someday I'll install a spam filter
[07:52:36] <Ge0rG> the XMPP spam problem?
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[07:58:32] <pep.> Mail
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[07:59:12] <jonasw> spamassassin + imapsieve to train it
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[07:59:15] <jonasw> but ECHAN
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[07:59:47] <Zash> ENOMEM
[07:59:52] <zinid> I personally don't want to mess with spam filters so I chose to use gmail
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[08:00:44] <pep.> jonasw: I already have sieve yep, I just need to take time for spamassassin
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[09:23:50] <Wiktor> DMARC has a FAQ entry for mailing lists ( https://dmarc.org/wiki/FAQ#I_operate_a_mailing_list_and_I_want_to_interoperate_with_DMARC.2C_what_should_I_do.3F ) one of suggestions is just to use mailing list in the From header and move sender to Reply-To header, some mailing lists have options like that (e.g. https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC )
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[10:18:10] <jonasw> Wiktor, yes, it sucks
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[10:21:09] <Wiktor> jonasw: I don't know, I'm not using Mailman but thanks for info!
[10:21:56] <jonasw> you can do that with mailman, but since it mangles the From it makes lists harder to read
[10:22:25] <Zash> Aren't you supposed to set Sender?
[10:23:05] <jonasw> depends, I think
[10:23:16] <jonasw> some operate on the sender, some on From, some on SMTP-Mail-From
[10:24:01] <Wiktor> DMARC only cares about From, if you mangle that it's DMARC-OK :)
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[17:39:48] <goffi> https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html ==> nice blog post about SàT CLI frontend, if anywone want's do have an idea of its abilities.
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[17:56:16] <Zash> Mmmm, what's this https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-curdle-cms-eddsa-signatures-08
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[20:20:18] <dwd> Wiktor, Please read RFC 5322. From is the author. DMARC is in the wrong here.
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[20:21:54] <Zash> -rfc 5322
[20:21:54] <Bunneh> Zash: Internet Message Format.
P. Resnick, Ed.. October 2008. (Updated by RFC6854) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322
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[20:50:18] <pep.> dwd, I see your point (re DMARC)
[20:50:35] <pep.> DKIM is not helping though is it?
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[20:51:27] <pep.> (this morning's discussion, and your remark to Wiktor)
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[21:05:57] <Wiktor> Well the issue is mailing list modifying email content or/and headers, appending footers, adding mailing list id to subject. If the email was not modified it'd pass DKIM checks and DMARC would be happy. Then you can have your From just fine :)
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