Wednesday, October 25, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[13:27:51] <jonasw> poezio looks confused
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[14:55:18] <edhelas> hey guys, already heard about that ? https://software-otomax.com/setting-jabber-di-otomax.html
[14:55:43] <edhelas> some services are using XMPP servers as money transaction system, mostly in Indonesia
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[14:56:30] <edhelas> I'm considering those accounts created as spam and deleting them on my server
[14:56:59] <Zash> Isn't this more of an operators@ topic?
[14:58:19] <edhelas> oh sorry, will discuss about that on operators@
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[15:14:32] <Arc> wait, crytocurrency transactions, or actual currency?
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[15:20:01] <zinid> xmpp can be used for cryptocurrencies, because, despite the intention, they fall into "trust your server" category (e.g. there is full-mode node holding blockchain and lots of tiny clients)
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[15:25:41] <Arc> ok
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[15:42:03] <Arc> ralphm: nyco: you around?
[15:42:06] <ralphm> Yes
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[15:42:15] <Arc> ok so team A today
[15:42:29] <ralphm> Awesome?
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[15:43:05] <Arc> sure A can be awesome, refering to we either have mattj + martin, or ralph + nyco
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[15:43:39] <Arc> do we have anything for the agenda?
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[15:47:47] <dwd> Arc, I believe Martin is travelling right now.
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[15:55:38] <Arc> meeting time
[15:56:02] <Arc> but do we have quorum?
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[15:56:22] <ralphm> Hi
[15:56:26] *ralphm bangs gavel
[15:56:40] <ralphm> 0. Welcome + Agenda
[15:56:45] <ralphm> Who do we have?
[15:56:51] <Arc> Here
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[15:57:19] <nyco> hey
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[15:57:24] <nyco> sorry
[15:57:26] <nyco> late... :'(
[15:57:43] <nyco> quorum achieved
[15:58:02] <ralphm> Besides trello items, anything else we should discuss?
[15:58:13] <nyco> I don't see...
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[15:58:56] <Guus> Summit/fosdem?
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[15:58:59] <Arc> google code-in is happening
[15:59:13] <Arc> XSF missed the application window tho
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[15:59:26] <ralphm> Guus: yeah, I was going to put that on
[15:59:29] <MattJ> Sorry, thought I was in the room but I wasn't
[15:59:35] <ralphm> Hi MattJ
[16:00:03] <ralphm> I see Draft/Stable
[16:00:21] <ralphm> And the eternal editor recruitment that I think we can remove
[16:00:33] <ralphm> Also elections
[16:00:34] <nyco> yeah, summit, only one day this year?
[16:00:42] <ralphm> So let's get going
[16:00:51] <ralphm> 1. FOSDEM / XMPP Summit
[16:01:10] <nyco> we got the RTC devroom, thx to Saul, again, thx to him
[16:01:16] <ralphm> Why one day only? Last time we easily filled up two days.
[16:01:21] <nyco> we have no RTC lounge... yet... afaik
[16:01:27] <ralphm> nyco: yeah, I was aware of it all
[16:01:38] <ralphm> I will apply for the Lounge as always
[16:01:42] <nyco> thx
[16:01:56] <nyco> also, isn't that for the SCAM team? what would the board contribute to this?
[16:01:57] <Guus> ralphm: please educate me
[16:02:12] <Guus> So that I can do it next year
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[16:02:46] <ralphm> Guus: I know I haven't been very communicative regarding SCAM, but I consider myself associated with it :_D
[16:02:46] <Guus> Scam lacks the experience
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[16:03:09] <ralphm> It is just filling in a form, mostly copy/paste
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[16:03:20] <ralphm> And the org knows me so that helps too
[16:03:21] <Guus> ralphm:cool, but still, you should not be the only capable one
[16:03:26] <ralphm> Agreed
[16:03:35] <ralphm> So I will list you as contact, too
[16:03:57] <Guus> I'm a car now, let's take this on later, scam MUC?
[16:03:58] <ralphm> Anyway, board-wise I can only think of two things
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[16:04:12] <ralphm> a) do we do a Summit?
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[16:04:31] <Arc> of course?
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[16:04:48] <ralphm> b) what things do we need for Summit/FOSDEM and how much money would we need
[16:05:10] <ralphm> For b) I think we need to make a little plan within SCAM and then tell board
[16:05:26] <ralphm> For a), I totally think we should yes
[16:05:26] <Guus> +1
[16:05:48] <nyco> you are a car ?
[16:05:59] <ralphm> I am not a car.
[16:06:06] <Guus> In a car
[16:06:07] <nyco> summit, yeah, of course, why not?
[16:06:15] <nyco> I guessed, joking ;-)
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[16:06:31] <nyco> question is rather: 1 or 2 days? and is it a real question?
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[16:06:42] <ralphm> I'd go with 2 as always
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[16:07:07] <nyco> why not 5? ;-)
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[16:07:16] <nyco> 2 days, +1 for me as well
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[16:07:33] <ralphm> I pensiled in Feb 1 and 2
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[16:07:54] <nyco> so, we pass the hot potato to the SCAM team?
[16:07:58] <ralphm> if SCAM has a good plan for more days, I'm very curious about it :-D
[16:08:11] <nyco> we can ask this team
[16:08:18] <nyco> team answers: none so far
[16:08:21] <Arc> the first 365-day summit
[16:08:25] <ralphm> Hah
[16:08:28] <nyco> oh wow
[16:08:37] <nyco> how about 366?
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[16:08:55] <Arc> because after 365, the next summit begins
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[16:09:10] <nyco> and, still an open question to the SCAM team: do we keep the very same format?
[16:09:46] <ralphm> Good questions. I'd love to answer that with Guus and whoever is in SCAM these days
[16:10:21] <ralphm> Is that just nyco?
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[16:10:42] <Guus> Will formulate answer for next weeks board meeting
[16:10:50] <Guus> Daniel too
[16:10:53] <ralphm> Ok
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[16:10:55] <nyco> and Daniel, and you
[16:10:59] <ralphm> right
[16:11:03] <nyco> left
[16:11:13] <ralphm> I didn't leave?
[16:11:14] <Zash> ↑↓↑↓
[16:11:20] <ralphm> ah
[16:11:21] <ralphm> funny
[16:11:23] <ralphm> anyway
[16:11:32] <ralphm> 2. Elections
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[16:11:56] <nyco> oh
[16:11:56] <Arc> they're up
[16:11:57] <ralphm> I read in the minutes from last time that Alex was on this, but no update?
[16:12:16] <Arc> the pages are on the wiki, official announcements have been made
[16:12:19] <Guus> Announcement was made
[16:12:30] <Arc> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2017
[16:12:31] <nyco> so, what do we have to discuss here?
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[16:12:44] <Arc> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017
[16:13:24] <Guus> Board should find candidates of possible
[16:13:31] <ralphm> Well, I haven't seen an announcement on that we are looking for candidates?
[16:13:44] <nyco> oh, Joe Demo is a candidate, welcome Joe Demo
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[16:14:23] <ralphm> In any case, if anyone currently on Board wants to do another term, do add your name there
[16:14:24] <Arc> is joe demo a person or a placeholder page
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[16:14:37] <nyco> placeholder
[16:14:42] <Arc> that's what i thought
[16:14:43] <ralphm> Well, it is a red link, so not even a page
[16:14:56] <Arc> i guess someone could be named Joe Demo...
[16:15:16] <nyco> why Joe Demo? we have Juliet and Romeo all over the places...
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[16:15:21] <nyco> ok, interesting debate
[16:15:39] <nyco> so, what do we have to discuss/decide here?
[16:16:00] <ralphm> Well, we are responsible for making sure elections can happen
[16:16:14] <nyco> so, checklist ok?
[16:16:17] <ralphm> So I wanted to know what the current state is. I don't see Alex here
[16:16:41] <Arc> we're responsible for handing over the baton to the new board
[16:17:00] <ralphm> well that too
[16:17:08] <nyco> I don't have a baton
[16:17:35] <nyco> ok then
[16:17:41] <nyco> next agenda item?
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[16:17:49] <ralphm> yes
[16:18:12] <ralphm> 3. XEP-0001 Draft/Stable
[16:19:05] <ralphm> Where are we on this?
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[16:19:43] <Guus> Iirc a request for more feedback was supposed to be sent, but in think our was not
[16:20:04] <ralphm> Minutes says MattJ will send a proposal
[16:20:04] <Guus> Mattj?
[16:20:06] <ralphm> didn't see one
[16:20:13] <MattJ> Errr, sorry, totally dropped that one
[16:20:15] <ralphm> Can we remove this from 'to be discussed'?
[16:20:19] <MattJ> Yeah
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[16:20:39] <MattJ> Writing it on my todo now, like I should have done at the time
[16:20:51] <ralphm> I'll put it in commitments
[16:20:57] <MattJ> Thanks
[16:20:58] <Guus> Tx
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[16:22:24] <ralphm> Ok
[16:22:27] <ralphm> I think that was it
[16:22:31] <ralphm> 4. AOB?
[16:23:04] <ralphm> Anything?
[16:23:30] <ralphm> Taking that as a no.
[16:23:36] <ralphm> 5. Date of Next
[16:23:37] <ralphm> +1W
[16:23:44] <ralphm> 6. Close
[16:23:47] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[16:23:52] *ralphm bangs gavel
[16:24:07] <nyco> ok, thx ;-)
[16:24:21] <nyco> wow, finished before :30!!!
[16:24:40] <ralphm> Yeah, I'm getting back to be on top of the game
[16:24:42] <Arc> thats amazing
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[16:24:48] <nyco> great to see
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[16:25:34] <Guus> Arc: Observatory docker status?
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[16:26:10] <Guus> You volunteer ed for that iirc
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[16:29:15] <Arc> still working on it
[16:29:38] <Arc> i have a bit of docker to do this month
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[16:31:05] <Guus> Cool. Dare to ETA?
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[17:12:34] <zinid> > So with 3 (+1) votes and 2 (-1) votes, we decide to change the state of XEP-0071: XHTML-IM to Obsolete
Hehe
[17:14:55] <zinid> ah, then council decided not to deprecate, neat
[17:15:10] <edhelas> can't wait for JSON-IM
[17:15:14] <SamWhited> It was a misunderstanding of the rules; 0001 was confusing.
[17:15:31] <SamWhited> We thought it was a simple majority, but it's a majority +1s and no -1s
[17:15:59] <MattJ> (in this case I'm glad, *ducks*)
[17:16:13] <SamWhited> :'(
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[17:16:43] <MattJ> We have problems, but declaring that we essentially don't have any way of communicating formatted messages (especially when most clients support it) would be wrong
[17:17:04] <Kev> Council didn't know how their voting worked, but thankfully someone else did ;)
[17:17:19] <MattJ> It's not like declaring it obsolete will solve the security issues, people will still implement it if other clients do, if there is no replacement
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[17:18:52] <Zash> Rewrite it as 90% security considerations and get an audited JS implementation?
[17:20:17] <zinid> we can write it in ocaml, prove it in coq and compile to javascript :D
[17:20:34] <edhelas> I have a question, do we really need XHTML-IM at first ? I mean who is using it ?
[17:21:23] <edhelas> I'd like to have some clear usecases here, because if it's about embedding pictures and so we already have other XEPs for that
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[17:31:50] <Link Mauve> Zash, sounds like the best course of action.
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[17:31:59] <Link Mauve> zinid, I’d love if you did that. <3
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[17:34:03] <Wiktor> edhelas: I'm sending command outputs as pre tags
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[17:36:02] <Link Mauve> Wiktor, about that, I’m going to change poezio’s implementation to send <pre><code class="lang-python">print('Hello world!')</code></pre> instead of the current way, and hopefully specify this usage of the class attribute at the same time.
[17:36:55] <Wiktor> Sounds good 👍
[17:37:56] <Wiktor> With this nice Google coloring library I can just insert it into DOM...
[17:38:01] *Wiktor ducks
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[17:40:00] <Wiktor> No just kidding but images are already solved in a different way so for me preformatted text is the most important use case... I like code snippets and nicely aligned ASCII tables...
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[17:42:12] <MattJ> XHTML-IM should be a whitelist of tags, no CSS and no dangerous attributes, it needs to have very clear guidelines on how to implement it safely
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[17:42:38] <MattJ> and maybe that's a new XEP that replaces the current one, that's fine
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[17:42:56] <MattJ> But changing the status of the current one is not the fix for the issue
[17:43:01] <waqas> MattJ: I went with a whitelist of attribute values, CSS keys and values
[17:43:16] <MattJ> Sanitizing CSS is not easy
[17:43:20] <Zash> Throw out CSS but have some predefined list of classes
[17:43:36] <Zash> {fg,bg}-$colorname if you want that kind of thing
[17:43:37] <waqas> So, I don't think the implementations are really paying attention to the spec's exact langauge…
[17:43:46] <jonasw> nice, one week away and still the same discussion <3. I was afraid I would be missing the key part :)
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[17:43:59] <Wiktor> Also remember while list of protocol schemes so that <a href="javascript:... is unsafe
[17:44:09] <waqas> Wiktor: That too
[17:44:49] <waqas> (as part of allowed attribute values for a.href)
[17:45:21] <waqas> But really, I expect language lawyering in a XEP to have exactly zero impact on the security in the wild.
[17:45:45] <Link Mauve> waqas, the specification is currently quite unclear about the possible attacks on web clients.
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[17:46:56] <Link Mauve> It should state what every web dev should know wrt user input, but it doesn’t currently.
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[17:47:42] <zinid> jonasw: nah, I just resurrected it here :)
/troll
[17:48:07] <Wiktor> Also enabling strict Content Security Policy mitigates a lot of these attacks, including script injection
[17:48:59] <Link Mauve> Yeah, that should be part of the security considerations.
[17:49:22] <Link Mauve> But that header obviously didn’t exist back in 2003.
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[18:21:41] <lovetox> omg im here
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[20:08:48] <zinid> "As for me; I recently moved from XMPP to matrix, mostly because I couldn't get XMPP to work reliably on ios, with my server"
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[20:08:52] <zinid> citation from reddit
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[20:09:04] <zinid> is everything bad on ios?
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[20:09:35] <ThurahT> yes.
[20:09:48] <SamWhited> ios is fine, the clients are just terrible as far as I can tell. People complain because it kills TCP connections aggressively, but we should be tolerating that anyways.
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[20:10:47] <zinid> yeah...
[20:11:30] <SamWhited> Although, does anything actually describe how reconnect behavior should work with XMPP? That might make a nice informational XEP.
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[20:13:58] <zinid> there is a more fundamental problem
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[20:14:13] <Zash> SamWhited: :´(
[20:14:15] <zinid> ios assumes your application to run as little as possible
[20:14:34] <zinid> so you almost always in "push" mode
[20:14:46] <zinid> and we have problems with IQs here
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[20:16:13] <zinid> the solution is to implement A/V (jingle, sip, no matter) and then ios will allow you to run in background :)
[20:16:14] <Zash> Suppose you could do BOSH with high timeouts.
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[20:17:06] <pep.> zinid, that seems like a win/win, for users and devs :P
[20:17:10] <SamWhited> but then you'd have to implement BOSH, and that way lies madness.
[20:18:21] <zinid> pep.: yes, however "voip certification" was quite notorious in apple store
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[20:18:29] <zinid> dunno how it's now
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[20:18:38] <pep.> I see
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[20:31:32] <zinid> "For me the biggest advantage that Matrix gives over XMPP is the very simple JSON based communication over plain HTTP"
[20:31:39] <zinid> this reddit thread is brilliant
[20:32:06] <pep.> Nice :)
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[20:39:17] <SamWhited> That is an advantage of Matrix, regardless of how complicated that all is under the hood it makes it way easier for most developers to get up and running. We can scorn it all we want, but it's a valid reason that a lot of people would chose to use something else.
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[20:42:50] <Zash> Without a TCP socket, what's left of XMPP? You basically have to become a stateless HTTP-like thing and then we're competing againtst something that is that already.
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[20:44:02] <SamWhited> I'm not suggesting we need to change the protocol or anything, just that pretending that advantages our competitors have aren't advantages isn't helpful.
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[20:45:10] <Zash> I'd like to strongly object to the statement that iOS is fine. // FOSS person who wants to be in control
[20:45:21] <zinid> SamWhited: we have BOSH 😁
[20:46:29] <Zash> As a server dev, I'm not sure what madness lies in the direction of BOSH
[20:46:36] <Zash> Works fine afaik and negates the need for 198
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[20:47:43] <Wiktor> Zinid, just for a little bit of context this is written by a Matrix developer: "For me the biggest advantage that Matrix gives over XMPP is the very simple JSON based communication over plain HTTP. XMPP on the other hand is complex XML."
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[20:48:38] <Wiktor> The entire thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacytoolsIO/comments/678xfm/xmpp_vs_matrix_could_someone_explain_me_the/
[20:48:59] <zinid> Zash: there are several bug reports in ejabberd bugtracker and I have no idea how to fix them because the logic is very complicated (there is some mess with how to handle out of order or duplicates)
[20:49:13] <SamWhited> It's true. I don't especially like JSON or think it was the right tool for the job, but we have a culture that ignores the end user or developer point of view and only thinks about the experts designing the protocols point of view for whatever reasson. XML *is* too complex, to the point where the XMPP specs have to use a restricted subset of it.
[20:49:43] <zinid> Wiktor: ah, ok
[20:50:11] <zinid> Wiktor: we should have our spy on Reddit then 😀
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[20:51:34] <ralphm> I mentioned this before and I think most agree: it is not about the actual wire protocol, but about libraries.
[20:52:12] <Zash> ralphm: Sounds true enough. Even SOAP is probably fine if the libs hide it from you :)
[20:52:35] <zinid> Lol
[20:52:37] <SamWhited> Indeed.
[20:52:56] <Zash> And yeah, trying to write your own lib from scratch when you actually want to make a client is not a recipie for a good time
[20:53:36] <ralphm> Right
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[20:55:09] <Zash> Question is, is it better to take a tool that doesn't have what you need and hack those things on, or take a tool that has too much and disable features in it?
[20:56:39] <ralphm> Not sure. Somebody asked me if it was a good idea to build a chat system on MQTT. My response: if you don't mind inventing your own chat semantics from scratch.
[20:56:51] <SamWhited> On an unrelated note, I just gave an XMPP intro or overview sort of talk to my office, which was fun.
[20:57:00] <ralphm> Yay
[20:57:04] <SamWhited> (we do a Wednesday lunc-and-learn sort of thing and today was my day to present)
[20:57:14] <SamWhited> lunch-and-learn, even.
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[20:59:54] <Guus> Sam, do you have some sort of template for that? Either to reproduce, or to distill in a blogpost or intro article or something.
[21:00:53] <SamWhited> Guus: not really, you can steal my slides if you want (warning, the PDFs are out of date): git@bitbucket.org:SamWhited/xmpp-intro-slides.git
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[21:01:58] <SamWhited> But I never try to make presentation slides work well on their own; I probably should
[21:02:02] <zinid> ralphm: people indeed resort to using hand made chats because they think it's easier to write from scratch instead of fiddling with existing tools/libraries
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[21:02:58] <Zash> Also don't underestimate the siren song of NIH
[21:03:09] <ralphm> SamWhited: I made these a while ago: https://ralphm.net/publications/xmpp_intro/#/
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[21:03:57] <ralphm> zinid: writing a chat system is easy. Writing a good one is incredibly hard. In any language or protocol.
[21:04:02] <SamWhited> ralphm: oh nice! mind if I borrow from that?
[21:04:24] <ralphm> Totally, you have the source right there
[21:04:27] <zinid> ralphm: I understand that 😀
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[21:07:07] <SamWhited> Thanks; I want to go back through and remove some of the XEPs I talk about (which were tailored for the same presentation for HipChat but which others probably don't care about) and add some of the bigger ones for common chat features.
[21:07:18] <SamWhited> So I might steal your bullets for Jingle/MUC/etc.
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[21:07:30] <Guus> Nice, ralphm
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[21:11:27] <SamWhited> I don't have my login on me to update the PDF of mine, but do have my SSH key so I just lazily comitted it to version control like a bad person: https://bitbucket.org/SamWhited/xmpp-intro-slides/src/f4e4c6fe52afd5783f8444325e69b2520fd02514/slides.pdf?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default
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[21:23:09] <dwd> Currently at Surevine, we have two guys working on XMPP clients (of sorts), and neither is touching XML.
[21:23:22] <dwd> Well. Almost not, anyway.
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[21:44:47] <Guus> You make 'm work in the office at 10:27pm while the rest of you are at home? Harsh.
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[22:54:43] <Arc> SamWhited: where you working these days?
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[23:14:58] <SamWhited> Arc: Cloudflare
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