Saturday, November 04, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:55:38] <marc> Hey, is somebody working on a XEP for user invitation? (see mod_invite of prosody)
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[10:10:13] <Flow> marc, MUC invitation? or "roster"? or?
[10:10:18] <Ge0rG> marc: have a look at [xep 379]
[10:10:54] <Flow> I was just about to mention that :)
[10:10:56] <Flow> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html
[10:14:10] <marc> It doesn't create an account on a server, right?
[10:15:13] <marc> It is just for adding a contact to the roster if I understand it correctly
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[10:16:41] <marc> mod_invite generates an invitation token and let's an user create an account on a non-public server
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[10:20:18] <marc> s/let's/lets
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[10:36:47] <marc> Ge0rG, correct? Just noticed that it's your XEP :)
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[10:39:59] <Ge0rG> marc: it's right.
[10:40:14] <Ge0rG> marc: I'd like to leverage it for account invitations though
[10:40:16] <Ge0rG> no idea how
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[10:41:12] <marc> I'm working on a POC for account invitations and would like to make a XEP for that
[10:42:20] <marc> Invitations are too "complicated" at the moment IMO, at least for the normal "whatsapp user" :)
[10:43:07] <Ge0rG> marc: so true
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[10:45:54] <marc> It shouldn' take more than a minute to create an account and start a conversation
[10:46:20] <marc> Is somebody on 34c3 for some hacking? Will there be a XSF/XMPP assembly?
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[10:53:56] <Ge0rG> marc: I think so, there should be something in the SCAM section on the wiki
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[10:56:44] <marc> Ge0rG, yes, thanks!
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[12:31:37] <Ge0rG> marc: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/34C3
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[12:33:06] <jonasw> marc, I agree
[12:33:19] <jonasw> I’d be very interested in your ideas of the flow
[12:33:39] <jonasw> ideally there would be something with a token in the URI which allows users to register immediately with a server from within the client even if the server doesn’t allow registrations otherwise.
[12:33:54] <Ge0rG> what jonasw said.
[12:34:10] <Ge0rG> like a PARS token, but for IBR instead of for presence subscription
[12:34:23] <Ge0rG> bonus points for allowing the token to also function as a PARS
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[12:35:22] <jonasw> yupp
[12:35:37] <jonasw> I’d also like to have Pre-Authenticated MUC Join :)
[12:35:52] <jonasw> (for members-only MUCs)
[12:36:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what's wrong with mediated invitations?
[12:36:14] <jonasw> when I don’t know the JID yet?
[12:36:18] <Ge0rG> oh
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[12:36:45] <Ge0rG> jonasw: any reason why PARS can't do it for MUC join presence?
[12:38:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user
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[12:39:30] <pep.> You'd still have to add the user somehow right? To generate the token
[12:40:03] <jonasw> pep., no, you generate the token and sedn the token to the user via an out-of-band mean. The whole point is that at the time of invitation, the user might not yet have an XMPP account.
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[12:40:30] <pep.> Yeah I got that part. nvm I didn't get Ge0rG's sentence in the first place
[12:42:49] <pep.> I'd also be interested in whatever this leads to :)
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[12:44:03] <Guus> One day for the deadline to apply for Board and Council. The current candidacy list is to short! If you're interested, please sign up now!
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[12:46:13] <Link Mauve> You mean sign up tomorrow?
[12:47:23] <marc> jonasw, done ;)
[12:47:31] <Ge0rG> jonasw [13:38]:
> Ge0rG, members-only, you’d have to add the user
The user adds the token to the join presence and is added instantly
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[12:48:09] <marc> If I have some time these days I'll make a small video of how it works (implemented in Gajim+Conversations)
[12:48:12] <marc> And ejabberd
[12:48:17] <Ge0rG> What's the membership election deadline? I don't want to risk getting kicked out of council because I forgot my membership application
[12:48:43] <Ge0rG> marc: of how what works?
[12:48:44] <marc> Well, still some missing parts and all very hackish but the idea should work very well
[12:49:05] <marc> Ge0rG, the invitation "flow" :D
[12:49:26] <Ge0rG> marc: yay for more "Easy XMPP"!
[12:49:34] <Guus> Ge0rG: November 21st
[12:49:42] <marc> Yes, I would really see "easy xmpp"
[12:49:46] *Ge0rG made some videos of PARS back then
[12:49:57] <Ge0rG> marc: that's also a category on the wiki
[12:50:06] <marc> Otherwise XMPP will never be accepted by end-users
[12:51:15] <Ge0rG> marc: that's what I'm saying for years now
[12:52:16] <marc> Ge0rG, I guess you'll help me with my XEP and the implementation then ;)
[12:52:38] <Ge0rG> marc: yes I will.
[12:52:59] <marc> Ge0rG, nice :)
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[12:53:33] <Ge0rG> marc: also related https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation
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[12:54:04] <marc> Ah cool
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[12:54:57] <marc> QR codes are nice for invitation, I already use it
[12:55:47] <Ge0rG> marc: I think we can extend the http invitation link with an account creation token that allows you to register on a specific server
[12:56:41] <marc> Yes
[12:56:48] <marc> I already have this somehow
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[12:57:57] <marc> Afk, Ge0rG looking forward to work with you on this topic :)
[12:58:26] <Ge0rG> I wish I had more time to actually implement things in yaxim
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[13:06:16] <jonasw> Ge0rG, now I get it, right
[13:06:21] <jonasw> requires support by the MUC service
[13:07:21] <jonasw> and PARS needs some more acceptance
[13:07:28] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes, do you see another way? Additional handshake with the inviting client?
[13:08:12] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no
[13:08:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: PARS is blocked by lack of private pep storage
[13:08:45] <jonasw> *in prosody
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[13:12:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: in one of the widely deployed OSS servers
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[13:13:27] <jonasw> yes
[13:13:44] <jonasw> I’m also not convinced that PEP is the right place for this.
[13:14:03] <jonasw> I mean to push the topic further soon, I’m still lagging behind from vacation.
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[13:22:27] <Ge0rG> jonasw: whatever works on prosody 0.10 and will convince daniel is fine with me
[13:23:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: bonus points for solving MUC and account creation invitations in the same track
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[13:24:39] <jonasw> not sure this shouldn’t be different XEPs
[13:24:52] <jonasw> but I think people complained that yet-another-custom-IQ-protocol is not desirabel
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[13:37:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: as opposed to what?
[13:37:12] <jonasw> private PEP
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[13:37:47] <Ge0rG> Right
[13:37:56] <jonasw> I re-read the thread from april
[13:38:07] <jonasw> I think the arguments for private PEP are convincing
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[13:38:20] <jonasw> (it allows easy client-side handling and server integration at the same time)
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[13:38:39] <jonasw> it would be great to have the token in the roster, too.... that’d allow clients to purge all entries created by a certain token
[13:38:40] <Ge0rG> The only issue I have is the "unlimited count" for pars tokens
[13:38:49] <jonasw> unlimited count is fine for me.
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[13:39:19] <Ge0rG> I can live with it, and having it in the roster is a great idea
[13:39:49] <jonasw> lovely roster extensions which break things
[13:39:50] <jonasw> #mix
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[13:40:22] <jonasw> pity people didn’t follow my suggestion for generic roster extensions
[13:40:31] <jonasw> that would be handy now
[13:40:33] <Ge0rG> I wanted to have some identifier for auto added roster items, the token can well be used for that
[13:40:36] <Flow> jonasw, why roster extensions when you can use private PEP?
[13:40:51] <jonasw> different things
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[13:41:00] <Ge0rG> Flow: do you want to duplicate the roster structure in pep?
[13:41:02] <Flow> like a private PEP shadow roster with all you metadata from the extension
[13:41:12] <Flow> Ge0rG, possibly
[13:41:26] <Flow> I'm not 100% decided which approach is better
[13:41:27] <jonasw> Flow, would probably work, yeah. except that you’d really want multiple items in that and PEP services aren’t good at that
[13:41:46] <Flow> but then again, thinks will probably break if you extends the roster
[13:41:49] <Flow> *things
[13:41:55] <jonasw> I doubt that they will
[13:41:59] <Flow> so there is only this approach left
[13:42:01] <jonasw> adding elements in foreign namespaces shouldn’t break things.
[13:42:09] <jonasw> or the approach the MIX people went for
[13:42:14] <jonasw> which is equally bad or even worse
[13:42:39] <Kev> Roster extensions are a sensible thing that we've been talking about for about a decade.
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[13:43:03] <jonasw> Kev, why don’t we have them and why is MIX inventing its own probably not really extensible protocol for that?
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[13:43:52] <Kev> 1) Reasons
2) I'm not sure what you're suggesting as the alternative. MIX is injecting a roster extension.
[13:44:39] <Ge0rG> If we do roster extensions, can't we put MUCs there too?
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[13:45:50] <jonasw> Kev, re 2: right, I was confused I think
[13:46:11] <Kev> Off out, back later.
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[13:55:33] <Flow> jonasw, I think that it will cause a lot of trouble if clients see entities in the roster but don't understand the metadata found in the extension
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[13:56:04] <Flow> or maybe no trouble, but confusion at least
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[13:56:40] <jonasw> Flow, right, for PARS tokens it would be irrelevant though
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[13:56:53] <Flow> jonasw, probably
[13:56:56] <jonasw> for sure.
[13:57:03] <jonasw> it doesn’t do harm if it’s ignored
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[14:22:04] <Ge0rG> Flow: do you think it will also break for normal roster items with extensions, as opposed to things like mix?
[14:22:15] <marc> Ge0rG, my invitation is based on an adhoc command for token generation, the inviter can chosse contacts to be shared
[14:22:28] <marc> these contacts are then added to the roster of the new account
[14:23:20] <jonasw> I am now embarrased that I didn’t think of Ad-Hoc commands.
[14:23:27] <marc> sounds not too complicated to me
[14:23:41] <marc> jonasw, :)
[14:23:48] <jonasw> marc, sounds like a solid approach
[14:24:22] <marc> jonasw, cool, thanks! So I'm going to further improve my POC
[14:24:33] <jonasw> since the account will be on exactly that server, it can of course handle the presence subcsription, no need for PARS
[14:24:40] <jonasw> lovely
[14:24:48] <marc> yes
[14:25:00] <jonasw> marc, I’ll be happy to proof-read things and guide you through the XEP process.
[14:25:05] <marc> and I think there is no privacy implication
[14:25:32] <marc> since the inviter could send the jids to the invitee later as well
[14:25:37] <jonasw> there may be if the token is lost, in the sense that all contact information which was shared server-side is exposed.
[14:25:54] <marc> yes, until the token expires
[14:26:38] <marc> jonasw, thanks for the offer!
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[14:27:26] <marc> but even in this case there is only the information that somebody invited an unknown person and shared some contacts
[14:27:44] <Ge0rG> I think all we need is an opaque token, the server can implement any amount of logic when it's passed on
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[14:28:13] <marc> well, shared contacts could be disabled by the provider if this is an issue
[14:28:28] <Ge0rG> And we need a robust out of band mechanism to transport it
[14:28:43] <marc> I use XMPP URI and QR codes at the moment
[14:28:46] <marc> works like a charm
[14:29:05] <marc> this enables me in-app invitation
[14:29:11] <marc> as fallback it generates an URL
[14:29:28] <Ge0rG> Maybe contact sharing should be separated
[14:29:59] <Ge0rG> marc: what's the URI format?
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[14:30:22] <marc> Ge0rG, well, it's not "defined" but something like xmpp:example.com?account;invite_toke=TOKEN
[14:30:34] <Ge0rG> Sounds reasonable
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[14:30:55] <Ge0rG> Could be integrated into the landing page
[14:31:12] <marc> yep, together with the QR code
[14:31:23] <Ge0rG> Might need some information about the inviter, but then that's easy to fake
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[14:32:06] <marc> Well, my idea was, if that's required, that the server provides a simple REST API to gather information about the invitation
[14:32:12] <marc> This could be done via the token as well
[14:32:57] <marc> Well, for the landing page, of course
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[14:34:06] <marc> Information included in the URI would be nice but could be faked
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[14:36:49] <Ge0rG> Invitation links from third party systems are opaque as well, so this is not a priority for me. Having a rest API means we need a way to determine the url from the server name, which is not trivial
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[14:39:34] <marc> The landing page and the REST stuff is all optional and out of the scope of this XEP
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[14:40:09] <marc> If the landing page web server is implemented in the xmpp server itself, no REST API etc. is needed
[14:40:30] <marc> Just for the case the landing page uses another service like lighttpd
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[14:43:23] <Ge0rG> marc: then the ad hoc command needs a way to find out the landing page link
[14:44:03] <jonasw> can simply be returned in the result IIRC
[14:44:25] <Ge0rG> What happens if I send a "chat" message to the full proxy JID of a MIX participant?
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[15:02:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I think it’d behave just like a message sent to the actual JID of a MIX participant, except that it is relayed through the MIX
[15:03:20] <jonasw> cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#usecase-user-private-messages
[15:03:44] <jonasw> this appears to contains resource locking logic
[15:04:04] <marc> Ge0rG, yes, the landing page is returned by the adhoc command
[15:04:12] <jonasw> marc, how does the signup work?
[15:04:18] <jonasw> in-band or out-of-band?
[15:04:29] <marc> Ge0rG, the result of the adhoc command is a landing page URL (optional) and a token
[15:04:48] <Ge0rG> I'd just do IBR with an additional field stuffed somewhere
[15:04:59] <marc> jonasw, that's not implemented at the moment but I would like to send a field like a captcha
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[15:05:36] <jonasw> IBR itself doesn’t really allow for custom fields
[15:06:06] <marc> really? I thought I've read something about it in the XEP
[15:06:54] <jonasw> ah right
[15:06:58] <jonasw> data forms may be used instead
[15:06:59] <jonasw> lovely
[15:07:13] <marc> :)
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[15:36:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[17:34:07] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:34:10] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:34:13] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:34:22] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
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[17:40:31] <Ge0rG> Am I right that with MIX, a MIX-capable user server needs to keep in memory a list of all participants of all MIXes of all its users, online or offline?
[17:40:49] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[17:46:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why?
[17:46:50] <jonasw> (I don’t think so)
[17:46:50] <jonasw> gotta go
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[18:22:25] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:22:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:22:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:22:59] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[18:26:42] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:27:29] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[19:00:23] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[19:05:59] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[19:07:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
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[21:18:40] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[21:41:18] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:43:04] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:46:35] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:46:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[21:53:05] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:57:00] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:57:38] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[22:02:13] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:06:29] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:06:33] *** daniel has left the room
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[22:19:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[22:20:57] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:39:03] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[22:45:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[22:53:34] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:55:42] *** bjc shows as "away"
[22:58:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:58:40] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[22:59:43] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[23:00:09] *** sonny has joined the room
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[23:02:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:05:29] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:07:41] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[23:32:14] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:36:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[23:37:30] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:38:08] *** jubalh has left the room
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[23:39:22] *** bjc shows as "online"
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[23:53:41] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:58:22] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:59:03] *** bjc shows as "away"
[23:59:04] *** bjc shows as "online"
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[23:59:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"