Monday, November 13, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
November
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
    1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
     
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:24] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[00:06:49] *** Guus has left the room
[00:07:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:07:18] *** Guus has left the room
[00:07:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:09:09] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[00:10:04] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:20:04] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[00:25:43] *** daniel has left the room
[00:25:45] *** daniel has joined the room
[00:29:29] *** arc has left the room
[00:32:17] *** arc has joined the room
[00:38:21] *** arc has left the room
[00:39:00] *** @Alacer has left the room
[00:41:02] *** arc has joined the room
[00:41:11] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[00:49:43] *** arc has left the room
[00:49:44] *** arc has joined the room
[00:52:30] <Link Mauve> “01:44:52 Zash> Link Mauve: Can't you just chmod a+r the xep84 node, like people want with omemo?”, and willingly give away your JID in your MUC presence so that other participants can find it? ^^
[00:53:21] *** daniel has left the room
[00:53:25] *** daniel has joined the room
[00:55:18] *** arc has left the room
[00:55:19] *** arc has joined the room
[00:57:06] *** marc has left the room
[00:58:55] *** daniel has left the room
[01:00:43] *** daniel has joined the room
[01:00:43] *** arc has left the room
[01:01:50] *** Arc has joined the room
[01:03:47] <Link Mauve> I just added a page for an event we’ll be part of, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Capitole_du_Libre_2017
[01:04:17] <Link Mauve> It’s next weekend, Guus, could we get a stock of stickers in time for this event? :x
[01:05:03] *** arc has joined the room
[01:05:05] <Link Mauve> I’ll try to get other things as well, for example a French translation of Arc’s Prosody booklet, and maybe stickers of ours.
[01:05:38] *** daniel has left the room
[01:05:58] *** daniel has joined the room
[01:27:29] *** daniel has left the room
[01:28:06] *** daniel has joined the room
[01:28:18] *** SamWhited has left the room
[01:31:08] *** Syndace has left the room
[01:31:11] *** Syndace has joined the room
[01:31:56] *** @Alacer has left the room
[01:43:08] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[01:43:08] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[01:43:30] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[01:47:54] *** tux has left the room
[01:47:56] *** tux has joined the room
[01:49:10] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[01:49:10] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[01:59:34] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[01:59:34] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[02:02:27] *** Tobias has joined the room
[02:11:56] *** lumi has left the room
[02:14:09] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[02:14:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[02:14:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[02:15:09] *** daniel has left the room
[02:15:13] *** daniel has joined the room
[02:22:44] *** daniel has left the room
[02:58:19] *** daniel has joined the room
[03:04:00] *** daniel has left the room
[03:07:45] *** daniel has joined the room
[03:07:46] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:07:46] *** Arc shows as "online"
[03:23:34] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:23:34] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:25:46] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:25:46] *** Arc shows as "online"
[03:49:46] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:49:47] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:58:25] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[03:58:25] *** Arc shows as "online"
[03:59:49] *** @Alacer has left the room
[04:05:22] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[04:06:33] *** Kev shows as "away"
[04:06:34] *** Kev shows as "away"
[04:18:34] *** Kev has left the room
[04:21:44] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[04:21:45] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[04:54:54] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[04:54:54] *** Arc shows as "online"
[05:00:01] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:00:01] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:00:39] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:00:40] *** Arc shows as "online"
[05:08:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:08:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:11:46] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:11:46] *** Arc shows as "online"
[05:19:00] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:19:00] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:22:55] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:23:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:30:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:31:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:34:50] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:34:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:42:51] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:42:51] *** Arc shows as "online"
[05:50:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:50:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:50:40] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[05:50:40] *** Arc shows as "online"
[05:58:24] *** daniel has left the room
[06:08:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[06:09:31] *** Zash has left the room
[06:09:36] *** Zash has joined the room
[06:12:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:13:32] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:20:50] *** Kev shows as "away"
[06:24:22] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:27:29] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[06:27:29] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[06:31:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:35:17] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[06:35:17] *** Arc shows as "online"
[06:35:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:36:38] *** Guus has left the room
[06:36:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:36:57] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:37:28] *** Guus has left the room
[06:37:29] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:39:23] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:40:28] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:51:31] *** nyco has joined the room
[06:53:19] <Guus> Link Mauve: sure. Send me a shipping address.
[06:54:29] *** Zash shows as "online"
[06:54:32] *** Zash shows as "online"
[06:55:42] <edhelas> Guus o/
[06:55:50] <edhelas> we need to prepare a bit for T-DOSE as well :)
[07:01:04] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:01:57] <Guus> edhelas: yes. Suggestions?
[07:03:08] *** Kev has left the room
[07:07:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:08:28] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:08:28] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:09:13] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:09:13] *** Arc shows as "online"
[07:10:18] *** Guus has left the room
[07:10:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:16:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:22:07] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:22:07] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:23:52] *** Zash has left the room
[07:23:53] *** Zash shows as "online"
[07:23:56] *** Zash shows as "online"
[07:24:18] *** daniel has joined the room
[07:24:35] *** Guus has left the room
[07:24:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:24:50] *** nyco has left the room
[07:24:59] *** nyco has joined the room
[07:31:00] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[07:31:00] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[07:33:31] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:33:31] *** Arc shows as "online"
[07:34:19] *** lumi has joined the room
[07:35:35] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:35:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:37:37] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[07:37:37] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:38:55] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:38:55] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:40:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:41:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:42:22] *** Guus has left the room
[07:42:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:44:40] *** marc has joined the room
[07:44:46] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:44:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[07:45:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[07:47:14] *** McKael shows as "online"
[07:50:40] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[07:50:40] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[07:52:02] *** nyco has left the room
[07:52:09] *** nyco has joined the room
[07:52:27] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:54:44] *** Guus has left the room
[07:54:45] *** Guus has joined the room
[07:55:27] *** Guus has left the room
[07:55:28] *** Guus has joined the room
[07:55:39] *** goffi has joined the room
[07:55:41] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:55:52] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[07:55:52] *** Arc shows as "online"
[07:58:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:59:10] *** intosi has joined the room
[08:01:03] *** marc has left the room
[08:03:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:05:46] *** Guus has left the room
[08:05:48] *** Guus has joined the room
[08:06:31] *** Guus has left the room
[08:06:32] *** Guus has joined the room
[08:14:50] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[08:17:51] *** McKael shows as "online"
[08:18:10] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[08:18:10] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[08:20:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:20:23] *** Kev has joined the room
[08:20:24] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:21:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[08:21:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[08:22:13] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[08:23:59] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:25:18] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[08:26:24] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[08:26:24] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[08:31:21] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:31:21] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:31:38] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[08:32:30] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[08:32:31] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[08:33:06] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:33:06] *** Arc shows as "online"
[08:36:41] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:37:39] <Arc> holy crap, im on live internet video
[08:37:43] <Arc> https://video.nest.com/embedded/live/ctrlh1
[08:39:13] <jonasw> congrats or so? :-)
[08:41:00] *** lumi shows as "online"
[08:41:21] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:42:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:42:59] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:43:39] *** Guus has left the room
[08:43:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:43:45] *** arc has left the room
[08:43:49] <Guus> If I click this link, everyone better had their clothes on, Arc...
[08:43:57] *** arc has joined the room
[08:44:11] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:44:11] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:44:25] *** Guus has left the room
[08:44:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:44:54] *** Kev shows as "away"
[08:44:54] <jonasw> :D
[08:45:25] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:45:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:45:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:45:50] <jonasw> Arc, which one of that is you? :-)
[08:46:17] <Guus> He's the one sitting down.
[08:46:56] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:48:24] <Guus> did he bring his own french coffee press?
[08:48:32] <Guus> oh, shh, he's looking!
[08:48:40] <Guus> oh, false alarm.
[08:48:48] <Guus> I could do this all day! ;)
[08:51:17] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[08:52:35] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[08:52:35] *** Arc shows as "online"
[08:52:52] <Arc> i brought it here to stay here, but yes. its for tea
[08:53:08] <Guus> woah - quite a bit of lag.
[08:53:26] *** Guus has left the room
[08:53:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:53:36] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Spending the morning coding"
[08:54:07] *** Guus has left the room
[08:54:08] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:54:13] <Arc> yea, a few seconds
[08:54:27] <jonasw> tea!
[08:54:50] <jonasw> building a tea-machine with CLI interface so that I can write down tea-instructions as makefiles is on my long-term todo :)
[08:55:10] <Guus> jonasw, you need a (different) hobby.
[08:55:28] <Guus> I mean, CLIs are so passé.
[08:55:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:55:45] <edhelas> jonasw why not write a XEP for that ?
[08:55:49] <jonasw> Guus, trivial to make anything on top of CLI :)
[08:55:51] <Zash> Guus: NO U
[08:55:52] <edhelas> Makefile Over XMPP
[08:56:12] <jonasw> edhelas, HTCPCP over XMPP?
[08:56:20] <Arc> Rust!
[08:56:57] <Zash> Arc: Moldy tea? Sounds awful
[08:56:59] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:57:24] <Guus> He just put away his laptop - probably won't respond :)
[08:57:39] <Guus> I like my new Big Brother role :)
[08:57:50] <jonasw> Big Guus
[08:59:56] <jonasw> Guus, edhelas, also, a CLI tool could just be a frontend to an XMPP client sending commands ;-
[08:59:57] <jonasw> Guus, edhelas, also, a CLI tool could just be a frontend to an XMPP client sending commands ;-)
[09:00:40] <Guus> excuses!
[09:00:44] *** arc has left the room
[09:03:59] *** Guus has left the room
[09:04:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:04:45] *** Guus has left the room
[09:04:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:06:07] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[09:06:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:11:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:11:40] *** Guus has left the room
[09:11:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:12:22] *** Guus has left the room
[09:12:23] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:14:43] *** Arc has left the room
[09:18:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:18:21] *** arc has joined the room
[09:19:24] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[09:24:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:28:19] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:29:16] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[09:29:53] *** daniel has left the room
[09:29:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:31:54] *** marc has joined the room
[09:32:45] <arc> Heh
[09:32:48] <arc> Rustlang
[09:37:37] *** marc shows as "online"
[09:41:14] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:43:31] *** arc has left the room
[09:43:31] *** arc has joined the room
[09:43:57] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:44:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:45:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:46:06] <Link Mauve> Guus, do you prefer one in France or in the UK? (CC: mathieui.)
[09:46:43] *** daniel has left the room
[09:46:50] <mathieui> one what?
[09:47:01] <Link Mauve> Shipping address for SCAM material.
[09:47:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:47:42] <Link Mauve> Or maybe it would be more prudent to ship directly to the friend hosting us?
[09:48:01] <Link Mauve> Guus, how long would it take to ship them, generally?
[09:48:05] <Guus> Link Mauve: I don't care. You should account for a couple of days delivery time
[09:48:11] <mathieui> well, unless it arrives on saturday, it doesn’t change much
[09:48:26] <Link Mauve> For me it has to arrive on Friday morning at the latest.
[09:48:33] <Guus> Link Mauve: I have little experience - I think Daniel received his after two days. That was NL->DE
[09:48:44] <Ge0rG> wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to order material from a local printing shop?
[09:48:49] <Guus> Link Mauve: no promises other than that I will send it today.
[09:49:01] <edhelas> Guus you'll bring goodies for T-DOSE BTW ?
[09:49:16] <Guus> Georg: I have them pre-printed, shipping doesn't cost much.
[09:49:27] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, it may be, and we’re going to print some ourselves as well (French conference).
[09:49:52] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: what's the difference, accents all over "XMPP"? :D
[09:49:57] <Link Mauve> :p
[09:50:13] <edhelas> imèmpépaÿ
[09:50:27] <edhelas> *ixèmpépaÿ
[09:50:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[09:50:40] <daniel> printing something that is comparable in quality is pretty expensive. while shipping is not
[09:50:43] <Ge0rG> zímpŷ
[09:50:51] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, JabberFR is pretty well-known around here, so we’ll probably stickers with our logo, and also a translated flyer of Arc’s Prosody setup.
[09:51:10] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, JabberFR is pretty well-known around here, so we’ll probably print stickers with our logo, and also a translated flyer of Arc’s Prosody setup.
[09:51:24] <Ge0rG> X̲͍̬̺M̰͔͉̼̹̲̯Ṕ̭ͭ̿P̟͉̤̮̥̺̍ :D
[09:51:56] <Link Mauve> Guus, ok, so:
Emmanuel Gil Peyrot
19 Victoria Road
CB4 3BW Cambridge
United Kingdom
[09:52:06] <Link Mauve> Guus, ok, so:
Emmanuel Gil Peyrot
19 Victoria Road
CB4 3BW Cambridge, Cambridgeshire
United Kingdom
[09:54:07] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[09:54:31] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[09:55:38] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:59:09] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:59:51] *** arc has left the room
[10:01:01] *** arc has joined the room
[10:01:53] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:02:38] <Guus> Link Mauve: just the stickers, or also Arc' leaflet (I've got English ones only)
[10:03:40] <Link Mauve> Hmm, maybe a few English ones, I’m sure there will be some non-French people around.
[10:03:53] <Link Mauve> mathieui, any idea for the amount? I’ve never been to that particular event.
[10:05:08] <Guus> I've sent Daniel 100, I think.
[10:05:40] <Guus> If you don't put them on the table all at once, they'll last longer :)
[10:05:54] <Guus> (stickers, that is)
[10:07:03] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:08:05] <mathieui> 100 sound good
[10:08:55] <zinid> what stickers/
[10:08:57] <zinid> is it a meme or something here?
[10:11:09] <Link Mauve> Guus, sure. :)
[10:11:23] <Link Mauve> zinid, the things you can put on the back of your laptop.
[10:11:42] <Ge0rG> I didn't know XMPP had stickers support
[10:12:39] *** uc has joined the room
[10:12:42] <zinid> but I don't have a laptop...
[10:12:56] <zinid> fridge is ok?
[10:13:13] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:13:40] <Ge0rG> yeah
[10:14:10] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:15:02] <Guus> 100 stickers, 20 english folders (the folders are bulkier to send - I'd be happy to send as many as you want, but if you don't need them, I'd rather prevent have to find suitable envelopes :)
[10:15:52] <Guus> will that do, Link Mauve?
[10:16:46] <Link Mauve> Guus, yup, should be fine, thanks!
[10:17:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:17:10] <Guus> ok. Will send them this afternoon.
[10:17:18] <mathieui> thanks!
[10:17:26] <Guus> np
[10:18:15] *** daniel has left the room
[10:18:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:21:59] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:24:53] *** Alex has joined the room
[10:25:30] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[10:32:56] *** @Alacer has left the room
[10:33:27] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[10:34:12] *** daniel has left the room
[10:34:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:34:35] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:38:49] *** daniel has left the room
[10:38:54] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:39:24] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:39:42] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:41:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:41:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:42:07] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:42:14] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[10:43:03] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[10:43:56] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[10:47:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:54:24] *** daniel has left the room
[10:54:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:54:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:54:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:57:19] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:59:08] *** daniel has left the room
[10:59:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:00:12] *** Zash has left the room
[11:00:33] *** Zash shows as "online"
[11:01:19] *** zinid shows as "online"
[11:01:20] *** zinid has left the room
[11:04:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:06:29] *** daniel has left the room
[11:06:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:08:32] *** daniel has left the room
[11:08:37] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:10:00] *** pep. has left the room
[11:10:06] *** pep. shows as "online"
[11:12:48] <Guus> Jonasw the library list on the website isn't validated against the list of known platforms - is that by design?
[11:13:05] <Guus> (I'm not bothered by it - just checking)
[11:13:05] *** jere has joined the room
[11:13:20] <Ge0rG> I think we had a discussion about "platforms" for libraries being harder to pinpoint than for applications
[11:16:23] *** arc has left the room
[11:16:36] *** arc has joined the room
[11:16:44] *** zinid has left the room
[11:16:47] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[11:17:50] *** jere has left the room
[11:17:56] *** jere has joined the room
[11:18:53] *** @Alacer has left the room
[11:19:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:21:40] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[11:27:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:27:24] *** zinid has left the room
[11:27:33] *** zinid shows as "dnd"
[11:28:47] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:29:32] *** daniel has left the room
[11:29:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:29:55] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[11:31:04] <jonasw> Guus, isn’t it? I thought it was
[11:31:10] <jonasw> ah right
[11:32:30] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:34:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:36:16] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:41:41] *** jere has joined the room
[11:47:48] *** Guus has left the room
[11:47:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:48:04] <Ge0rG> MattJ: what about making MAM response messages type=headline?
[11:48:26] *** Guus has left the room
[11:48:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:50:18] *** jere has joined the room
[11:53:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:54:02] *** goffi has joined the room
[12:01:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:07:38] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:07:48] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[12:09:28] *** Guus has left the room
[12:09:30] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:10:33] *** Guus has left the room
[12:10:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:11:20] *** daniel has left the room
[12:11:22] *** daniel has joined the room
[12:11:42] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:11:43] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:15:42] *** sonny has joined the room
[12:16:11] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:16:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:17:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:18:27] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[12:18:34] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:19:46] *** valo has joined the room
[12:21:42] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:21:58] *** Guus has left the room
[12:21:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:22:46] <Guus> Link Mauve: two envelopes on their way.
[12:22:56] <Link Mauve> Yay, thanks!
[12:23:30] *** zinid has left the room
[12:23:33] *** zinid shows as "online"
[12:24:41] *** Valerian has joined the room
[12:26:10] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:26:49] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:32:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:32:39] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[12:32:44] *** McKael shows as "online"
[12:33:41] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[12:34:02] *** burrblurr has left the room
[12:34:32] *** jere has left the room
[12:34:39] *** jere has joined the room
[12:36:31] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:39:34] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:48:47] *** Valerian has left the room
[12:52:02] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:52:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:54:20] *** Valerian has joined the room
[12:56:26] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:02:02] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:02:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:04:00] *** Valerian has left the room
[13:05:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:05:57] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:06:00] *** Alex shows as "online"
[13:06:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:06:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[13:10:39] *** McKael shows as "online"
[13:16:01] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:16:28] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:18:40] *** daniel has left the room
[13:18:43] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:21:40] <moparisthebest> jonasw: is there ever more to making tea than boiling water and dropping a tea bag in there for a bit?
[13:22:01] *** lumi shows as "online"
[13:23:18] <Zash> Dangerous statement to make near any brits
[13:23:19] <mathieui> teabags? blasphemy
[13:23:37] <Link Mauve> My monocle just fell.
[13:24:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:26:12] <SamWhited> > My monocle just fell.

I'm really glad that stereotype translates across the channel as well as it doors across the Atlantic, that made me laugh.
[13:27:14] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:28:46] *** intosi shows as "online"
[13:28:59] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[13:29:36] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[13:29:36] *** intosi has left the room
[13:30:19] *** jere has left the room
[13:30:26] *** jere has joined the room
[13:30:34] *** daniel has left the room
[13:30:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:32:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:33:22] <Ge0rG> I just wondered if that stereotype will be still understandable in the next 10-20 years, but then I realized that most of us know monocles from TV anyway, not from real-life.
[13:33:54] <Zash> I should get monocle
[13:34:03] <mathieui> My monocycle just fell
[13:34:14] <Zash> *monoclepop*
[13:34:26] *** Alex shows as "online"
[13:34:50] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:36:02] *** Valerian has joined the room
[13:39:03] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:39:39] <jonasw> moparisthebest, :-O
[13:39:49] <jonasw> (a) timing, and (b) teabags?! heresy!
[13:41:16] <moparisthebest> Zash: I refrained from mentioning I then ice it and put in copious amounts of sugar for fear of British retribution
[13:43:27] <jonasw> moparisthebest, that has its uses and would also be amazing if automated
[13:47:04] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:47:28] *** Zash has left the room
[13:48:06] *** daniel has left the room
[13:48:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:54:57] <dwd> moparisthebest, Making tea is just boiling water, a teabag, a mug, and some milk once ready.
[13:54:59] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:55:00] *** daniel has left the room
[13:55:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:55:11] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:55:21] <Ge0rG> ewww, milk!
[13:55:39] <dwd> moparisthebest, I know some people like to faff about a bit with loose tea and so on, but it basically tastes the same whether decent tea leaves are in a bag or not.
[13:55:55] <dwd> Ge0rG, Yes, of course. Otherwise Wrong.
[13:57:07] <moparisthebest> some people put milk in coffee here, never seen that with tea, it's funny how little things like that are totally different in different places
[13:57:26] *** mhterres has joined the room
[13:57:26] *** mhterres has left the room
[13:57:35] <Ge0rG> I've tried tea with milk once or twice, and it was a shocking experience.
[13:57:51] <jonasw> it really depends on the tea
[13:57:53] <dwd> moparisthebest, Totally wrong in some places you mean.
[13:58:15] <jonasw> some Assam with milk -- great. earl grey with milk -- eww
[13:58:38] <moparisthebest> is there more than one kind of tea? /sarcasm :)
[13:58:51] <dwd> jonasw, Ah, I was worried you were about to suggest that fruit infusions were tea.
[13:59:00] *** Zash has left the room
[13:59:03] <jonasw> dwd, eww fruit infusions
[13:59:10] <dwd> jonasw, In which case, obviously, you'd have been Wrong many times over.
[13:59:16] <moparisthebest> I only ever drink warm/hot tea when I'm sick once or twice a year
[13:59:23] <moparisthebest> sweet tea though, that's a different story
[14:00:01] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:00:13] <dwd> moparisthebest, That is a bizarre American thing. Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff.
[14:00:53] <Ge0rG> do two Wrongs make one Right?
[14:00:55] <dwd> Yellow Label is both the world's most popular tea, and simultaneously not sold in the UK because we like halfway decent stuff.
[14:01:43] <moparisthebest> is uh, 'sun tea' a thing elsewhere?
[14:01:44] <dwd> Ge0rG, Well, tea without milk is Wrong, and fruit infusions are Wrong, obviously, but fruit infusions without milk is curiously less Wrong than with milk.
[14:01:58] <moparisthebest> on a hot summer day we put tea bags and water in a clear glass jar and sit it in the sun all day
[14:02:08] <moparisthebest> then of course sugar and refrigerate it
[14:05:10] <dwd> moparisthebest, Not seen that one before. Can't really see why you'd want to do that over just boiling water through teabags. (Through would have the same effect of reducing the tannins, which you probably want for ice tea variants).
[14:05:11] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:05:30] *** intosi has joined the room
[14:05:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:07:17] <mathieui> I ordered iced tea in the US, was expecting the lipton peach soda, came out with half a gallon of bad tea with ice
[14:08:45] *** tux shows as "online"
[14:09:19] <SamWhited> > Probably not helped by being inflicted by Lipton's Yellow Label and not any of the decent stuff.

That's the point, sweet tea requires a little bit of really crappy tea with your sugar! It's just how things work.
[14:09:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:09:38] <SamWhited> If you're using good tea you're doing it wrong.
[14:10:16] <Ge0rG> it looks like the controversy about tea is even larger than the controversy about MIX
[14:11:21] <mathieui> maybe this could go in the council agenda
[14:11:24] <SamWhited> Although, while Lipton is acceptable, you need Tetly if you want really good sweet tea. Trust a man who grew up in Georgia.
[14:12:14] <jonasw> what’s georgia
[14:12:16] <jonasw> ;-)
[14:12:18] <dwd> You have Tetley's?
[14:12:25] <dwd> jonasw, Country just south of Russia.
[14:12:41] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:13:01] <SamWhited> We are the home of sweet tea, comrade!
[14:13:01] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[14:13:02] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:13:25] <Ge0rG> In Soviet Russia, there was only bad Chinese tea.
[14:13:46] <arc> OK that's it, xmpp tea room must happen now
[14:13:47] <SamWhited> dwd: I'm not sure if it's the same, it's the generic bad black tea blend though, not any directrix type
[14:13:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:13:59] <SamWhited> *sigh* phones.
[14:14:06] <SamWhited> Can't type.
[14:14:35] <dwd> I think they only do the one thing. Presumably not advertised by Yorkshiremen in flat caps in Georgia, though?
[14:14:55] <SamWhited> http://www.tetleyusa.com/Components/Files/ProductImage/040214125141-mainclassic_black_tea_l.jpg
[14:16:15] <arc> That's actually kind of a brilliant thing for a con, instead of a plain old booth, host a tea room.
[14:16:22] <dwd> SamWhited, Same company, all right. Here it's https://www.tetley.co.uk/our-teas/our-full-range
[14:17:38] <SamWhited> Ah yup, that's the one. They're also very popular here (but only for iced and sweet tea)
[14:18:08] <SamWhited> Well, "here", I'm in Texas now and that's not really the same, sweet tea confuses places here.
[14:18:18] <mathieui> arc, offering hot tea at fosdem sounds like a plan
[14:18:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:18:42] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:18:44] <Link Mauve> arc, the Quadrature du Net does that at CCC.
[14:18:44] <dwd> arc, We could use Lloyd's XMPP code for controlling the kettle, too.
[14:18:53] <mathieui> (tbh the concept has been quite pioneered by the "quadrateahouse" at each international CCC event)
[14:18:59] <Link Mauve> It’s a great way to get random people to discuss together.
[14:19:10] <Zash> XEP it!
[14:19:27] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:19:52] <SamWhited> I thought teapots all implemented HTTP via RFC 2324?
[14:19:58] <Zash> Extensible Tea and Coffee Protocol
[14:20:19] <Link Mauve> Zash, sounds way too syn and ack ridden.
[14:20:25] <Zash> Pfft, HTTP, who uses that anymore?
[14:20:37] <Ge0rG> can't we just have somebody publish the beverages?
[14:21:33] *** Alex has left the room
[14:21:49] <Zash> <stream:tea to="ge0rg">...
[14:21:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:22:39] <arc> Bulk tea is cheap. Dirt cheap
[14:22:43] <Ge0rG> Is that RFC 2324 compatible?
[14:24:24] <SamWhited> I do like this idea … xmpp tea room. I hope I can actually make it to the summit, we'll see. Trying to convince my company, but probably only can if one of my talks is accepted.
[14:26:12] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:26:26] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:26:35] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:28:49] *** daniel has left the room
[14:28:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:30:19] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:31:20] *** daniel has left the room
[14:31:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:32:43] *** lovetox has joined the room
[14:38:48] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[14:39:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:40:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:42:15] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:47:00] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:47:16] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:47:24] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[14:47:31] *** McKael shows as "online"
[14:47:37] <dwd> Erm. Did disco#item elements once have an "action" attribute?
[14:47:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:49:01] <dwd> Probably one for ralphm, Kev.
[14:49:35] <dwd> Perhaps zinid too. Basically it's before my time anyway.
[14:49:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:49:58] <Zash> https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0030-2.1.html
[14:50:11] <Zash> Looks like a yes
[14:50:40] <Zash> No older versions than 2.1 available? :(
[14:51:06] <dwd> Ah, part of disco#publish. Also supported by Openfire. :-)
[14:51:08] *** Valerian has left the room
[14:51:24] <Zash> Wait, what
[14:51:56] *** nyco has left the room
[14:52:13] *** nyco has joined the room
[14:52:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:52:44] <dwd> Zash, Our Pubsub code has various bits in saying the spec isn't stable and might change, too. It's like archeology sometimes.
[14:53:33] <Zash> Version 2.4 (2008-06-06)

Per Council consensus, removed disco-publish feature (implementations should use publish-subscribe instead).
[14:54:13] <dwd> Zash, Yup. Openfire did make that jump. But still has disco#publish support knocking about - mosly, I suspect, where it hasn't been removed.
[14:54:31] <Zash> I wasn't even aware this had existed
[14:54:41] <jonasw> fun
[14:56:19] *** SamWhited has left the room
[14:56:35] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:57:38] <dwd> Zash, I was dimly aware of disco#publish. Enough to vote to strip it while I was on Council, apparently.
[14:57:58] <Zash> Before my time
[14:59:35] <dwd> Zash, I stood for the first time in 2007. Fiercly contested election, back then: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2007
[15:01:09] *** intosi shows as "online"
[15:02:15] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:03:03] *** intosi shows as "online"
[15:04:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:07:45] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:09:23] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:11:31] *** daniel has left the room
[15:11:33] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:12:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:13:52] *** jonasw has left the room
[15:14:56] *** daniel has left the room
[15:15:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:15:07] *** Guus has left the room
[15:15:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:16:03] *** Guus has left the room
[15:16:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:16:55] *** Alex has joined the room
[15:16:59] *** Valerian has joined the room
[15:17:28] *** Alex shows as "online"
[15:18:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:20:57] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:22:58] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:23:42] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:24:24] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:24:34] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:27:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:27:58] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:29:38] <ralphm> dwd: but even disco push didn't require an action attribute
[15:29:51] <ralphm> Don't think we had that attribute
[15:31:10] <ralphm> Oh, just saw the old version. Never mind
[15:31:43] *** bjc has joined the room
[15:31:43] *** bjc shows as "away"
[15:31:57] *** bjc shows as "online"
[15:32:56] *** daniel has left the room
[15:33:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:36:44] <dwd> ralphm, Yeah. I don't think Openfire has this quite right even so, but it's probably been lying in wait for years.
[15:37:11] *** Guus has left the room
[15:37:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:37:37] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:40:01] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:42:44] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[15:42:48] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[15:45:10] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[15:47:15] *** Kev has left the room
[15:49:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:49:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[15:50:38] *** goffi has left the room
[15:51:40] *** goffi has joined the room
[15:54:21] *** jere has left the room
[15:54:28] *** jere has joined the room
[15:56:18] *** peter has joined the room
[15:58:56] *** jere has left the room
[15:59:03] *** jere has joined the room
[16:05:57] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:06:01] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:06:22] *** McKael shows as "online"
[16:06:29] <Ge0rG> Can we have that "MUC" vs "Group Chat" vs "Conference" discussion on standards@ instead of on twitter, please?
[16:06:45] *** jere has left the room
[16:06:53] *** jere has joined the room
[16:08:32] <moparisthebest> I suppose it depends on whether your intended audience is twitter users or not
[16:09:17] <jonasw> which discussion?
[16:10:07] *** peter has left the room
[16:11:58] *** jcbrand has left the room
[16:12:18] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[16:12:38] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[16:13:35] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:13:52] *** Alex has left the room
[16:13:57] *** jonasw has left the room
[16:14:06] *** daniel has left the room
[16:14:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:18:23] <daniel> can we have the official twitter account RT please?
[16:18:41] <daniel> not sure whats wrong about twitter
[16:18:56] <daniel> you should be glad i didn't post that on instagram
[16:18:58] <zinid> daniel: 140 characters
[16:19:05] <daniel> zinid, 280!
[16:19:10] <zinid> zOMG
[16:19:16] <daniel> and it's a poll
[16:19:25] <daniel> you should just say a or b
[16:19:50] <jonasw> daniel, what twitter?
[16:19:58] <jonasw> I have no idea what you’re all talking about (that’s wrong with twitter)
[16:20:05] <zinid> what is twitter?
[16:20:07] <daniel> https://twitter.com/iNPUTmice/status/930101092565872640
[16:20:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:21:11] <Kev> daniel: "Chat" if you want the least confusing to users, in my experience. Although we call them Rooms in Swift.
[16:21:54] <Ge0rG> My twitter client didn't show it's a poll - nor the options.
[16:22:14] <daniel> is your twitter client an rss reader?
[16:22:26] <Ge0rG> no, it's an actual twitter client, from a third party.
[16:22:37] <zinid> damn, I don't even have an account in twitter
[16:22:52] <Ge0rG> Why isn't there an XMPP-based microblogging plattform?
[16:22:55] <mathieui> zinid, get on with the times, grandad
[16:23:15] <Ge0rG> Kev: isn't "Chat" ambiguous, in that it might mean a "private chat" as well?
[16:23:26] <Kev> It is.
[16:23:35] <zinid> mathieui: so you call this bloated crap with retarded limitiations "the times", okay...
[16:23:38] <edhelas> Ge0rG you mean a Web client that implement the XEP 277 ? :-°
[16:23:45] <daniel> ironically i think twitter is mostly millennials and older?
[16:23:53] <daniel> i think kids these days are on other platforms
[16:24:01] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:24:05] <Ge0rG> edhelas: no, I mean something that has a name and that will be recognized by most people in this MUC
[16:24:17] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[16:24:18] *** daniel has left the room
[16:24:20] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:24:24] *edhelas feels disapointed :(
[16:24:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:24:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, does that ambiguity matter?
[16:25:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not sure.
[16:25:16] <edhelas> Ge0rG you don't think that Movim fullfill your requirements ?
[16:25:21] <Ge0rG> I've been in that position ("how to name MUCs") some months ago, and I went with "Group chat"
[16:25:45] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I tried it once, but it didn't allow me to see NSFW content because of prosody :(
[16:25:51] <Ge0rG> And then my phone died or somesuch.
[16:25:58] <edhelas> wut
[16:26:06] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:26:07] <Holger> Movim kills phones?
[16:26:08] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[16:26:14] <Ge0rG> No, unrelated event.
[16:26:17] <zinid> so sad story
[16:26:24] <Ge0rG> Yeah. Sad.
[16:26:26] <daniel> there is nsfw content on movim?
[16:26:36] <Ge0rG> daniel: I never was able to figure that out.
[16:26:37] <edhelas> who merged this feature in Movim, that's you Holger ?
[16:26:44] <zinid> daniel: mostly gayish
[16:26:56] <daniel> what?
[16:27:05] <edhelas> there's no NSFW content on Movim, there's NSFW content on the XMPP network :o
[16:27:23] <zinid> daniel: do you really want a link? :)
[16:27:28] *** dwd has left the room
[16:27:36] <Ge0rG> I think that the more important thing than naming a MUC is naming a JID.
[16:27:43] *** dwd has joined the room
[16:27:49] <daniel> i'd prefer not to ender my xmpp credentials into some website...
[16:27:54] <daniel> *enter
[16:27:54] <zinid> and rename XEP back to JEP, plz
[16:27:57] <mathieui> Ge0rG, "address"
[16:28:00] *** dwd has left the room
[16:28:07] <edhelas> there's 2 difficults things in XMPP, naming things and send bold characters in chat
[16:28:12] <Ge0rG> mathieui: "user address"? "account address"? "jabber address"?
[16:28:18] <Ge0rG> mathieui: my address is a postal one.
[16:28:28] <Ge0rG> edhelas: LOL
[16:28:51] *** dwd has joined the room
[16:28:54] <jonasw> oh dear, I’m afraid of this becoming a meme :)
[16:29:02] *** daniel has left the room
[16:29:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:29:23] *** marc has left the room
[16:29:29] <Ge0rG> jonasw: fortunately, there is no way to send links to XMPP messages.
[16:29:37] <jonasw> isn’t there?
[16:29:41] <jonasw> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
[16:30:21] <mathieui> jonasw, btw, didn’t you have to make some tweaks to CCG after implementing it in poezio?
[16:30:55] *** daniel has left the room
[16:31:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:31:09] <jonasw> mathieui, just pushed them, waiting for the docker hub build
[16:31:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: we don't even have solved message IDs.
[16:31:37] <jonasw> Ge0rG, before solving message IDs, let’s solve message routing
[16:31:40] *** daniel has left the room
[16:32:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: right.
[16:33:50] <daniel> is this scheduled before or after world peace?
[16:33:54] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[16:33:54] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[16:34:07] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[16:34:13] *** marc has left the room
[16:36:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:37:11] <jonasw> difficult to compare things to NaN
[16:37:33] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:39:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:41:40] *** Tobias has left the room
[16:41:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:45:04] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[16:45:05] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[16:46:18] <ralphm> Ge0rG: XMPP is all about distributed systems and decentralization. Why would we need to discuss particular topics in one place only?
[16:46:33] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[16:47:15] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[16:47:15] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[16:47:21] *** burrblurr has left the room
[16:47:38] <jonasw> ralphm, especially in this situation having a central discussion venue is vital.
[16:47:48] <jonasw> it helps the various distributed entities to have a common view on things
[16:47:55] <jonasw> which is important for interop
[16:47:58] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[16:48:13] *** daniel has left the room
[16:48:58] *** burrblurr has left the room
[16:51:14] *** Guus has left the room
[16:51:17] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:51:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:53:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:53:21] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:53:31] <Ge0rG> ralphm: nothing wrong with that, except that most of our distributed venues are not based on XMPP anyway.
[16:54:31] <daniel> well twitter is mostly about user engagement and marketing. it's not meant to have a meaningful discussion
[16:55:08] *** bjc shows as "away"
[16:55:09] *** marc has joined the room
[16:55:30] <ralphm> I don't see a problem with that. Each communication medium has different properties. I like e-mail for long-form discussions, but don't like it for IM-style usage (which I see a lot in corporations). Twitter is nice for public snippets. XMPP is good as a basis for building IM systems.
[16:55:53] <ralphm> There are a bunch of things I like about Slack
[16:56:10] <ralphm> (which could totally be build on top of XMPP)
[16:56:38] <Ge0rG> if only we had a proper slack clone on top of XMPP
[16:56:53] <ralphm> Go fund a team to make it
[16:57:02] <ralphm> It is not a technology issue at all
[16:57:16] <Ge0rG> I know.
[16:57:40] <Ge0rG> People are reinventing IM all the time, and burning venture capital on the way.
[16:58:38] *** Guus has left the room
[16:58:38] *** Guus has left the room
[16:58:58] <ralphm> I disagree this is a waste of money. Also I don't care how VCs spend their money.
[16:59:03] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:59:14] *** matlag shows as "online"
[17:00:00] *** Guus has joined the room
[17:00:01] <ralphm> Slack has a useful proposition that makes it more viable for teams like mine at work to collaborate than if we had to use any current offering based on XMPP.
[17:00:14] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:00:14] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:00:14] <ralphm> Of course there are a bunch of things I don't like about it.
[17:00:30] <ralphm> E.g. I think their channels should be more like MIX, with orthogonal streams of data
[17:01:07] <ralphm> Now I have to ~force~ educate people to not put notifications of integrations into the same channel as where discussions happen.
[17:01:18] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I'm pretty sure there is a market niche for a Slack clone that is deployed on premise and can be configured to follow archival / access policies.
[17:01:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:01:49] <ralphm> Yes
[17:02:16] <Ge0rG> And XMPP has all the building blocks for that.
[17:02:25] <moparisthebest> what does it give you other than the bots for integration? (over a XMPP MUC)
[17:02:27] <Ge0rG> But people rather do it on top of HTTP REST JSON.
[17:02:43] <ralphm> moparisthebest: what Slack offers to us?
[17:02:47] <moparisthebest> yes
[17:02:54] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: Slack is easy to "deploy"
[17:02:59] <zinid> Because xmpp is complex
[17:03:29] <moparisthebest> in the same way as it's easy to just use a public xmpp server and muc I guess, that can't be the reason?
[17:05:00] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: have you ever used Slack? And any of the XMPP client offerings?
[17:05:06] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: there is a world of a difference, UX wise
[17:05:42] <ralphm> moparisthebest: consistent UI across platforms, including desktop, easy to configure integrations (even by non-technical people), search, rich(er) formatting, snippets, mentions, team-mentions, (automatic) snoozing, reminders, (custom) emoji, emoji responses, unlimited editing/deletion of previously sent messages.
[17:05:43] <moparisthebest> no I haven't used slack that's why I'm asking :)
[17:06:10] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: try it out for a week or two
[17:06:44] <moparisthebest> unlimited editing/deletion of previous messages isn't a security problem?
[17:06:53] <moparisthebest> especially for companies that must keep records or whatever?
[17:06:56] <ralphm> moparisthebest: at this point in time, anyone developing XMPP clients or servers, or participates in the standards discussions thereof, should use Slack to understand what we're up against.
[17:07:20] *** bjc shows as "online"
[17:07:27] <ralphm> I am tempted to disqualify people's opinion based on that.
[17:07:37] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I agree
[17:07:44] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:07:47] <jonasw> good, we need a team which does that kind of research
[17:07:53] <jonasw> because I cannot take any client serious which only runs in the browser.
[17:08:00] <Ge0rG> Slack is the mirror that's held up to XMPP client developers to show how they failed.
[17:08:03] <moparisthebest> what if it's against your religion to use proprietary software? :)
[17:08:17] <ralphm> moparisthebest: enlightenment?
[17:08:27] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: then pay somebody to use it and look at them doing it.
[17:08:43] *** goffi has left the room
[17:09:00] <ralphm> Ge0rG: I think limiting that to just XMPP client devs is not fair.
[17:09:34] <Ge0rG> ralphm: maybe, but in the context of the XSF it is a very valid limitation.
[17:10:01] <moparisthebest> other's opinions are helpful anyway, I can open slack, but if I'm not using it daily or in a team or whatever I can't really get a good feel over what it does better or worse
[17:10:11] <ralphm> jonasw: totally, you at least need browser, iOS and Android. Desktop apps seem to be a thing still. I heard that my Mac using colleagues use the desktop version of Slack. I just run it in the browser.
[17:10:17] <moparisthebest> plenty of people seem to like riot.im, I found it confusing after a few minutes and quit
[17:10:34] <Ge0rG> I'd even go as far as to say that renaming from JSF to XSF and thus shifting focus away from software to protocol was a bad idea.
[17:10:54] <ralphm> moparisthebest: I agree it helps if you need it for work or another shared project where there is regular usage.
[17:11:03] *** nyco has left the room
[17:11:20] <SamWhited> You should start a new JSF, the XMPP Software Foundation (also called XSF).
[17:11:21] <ralphm> Ge0rG: that's disingenious. The XSF/JSF has always been about standards.
[17:11:26] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I think that it's rather easy to port a modern web app onto the Electron operating system, so having [web, ios, android] might suffice.
[17:11:42] *SamWhited stops being unhelpful and goes back to actual work.
[17:11:54] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I'd call it the Jabber Software Foundation and focus on IM client interop.
[17:11:56] <ralphm> Ge0rG: we didn't do much about software, but named it like Apache. The furthest we got was hosting JabberStudio.
[17:11:59] <moparisthebest> ah yes that's what I want, a chat client that uses more resources than my java IDE
[17:12:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:12:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:12:13] <moparisthebest> oh wait I have that, it's called running a windows 7 VM just for lync :'(
[17:12:37] <Ge0rG> ralphm: my point is: we are sorely missing an entity that has a focus on software and UX of XMPP
[17:12:46] <Kev> Ge0rG: Me :p
[17:12:56] <moparisthebest> I thought I'd seen a lot of focus on UX lately Ge0rG
[17:13:32] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: you mean the Styles XEP?
[17:13:40] <moparisthebest> not everyone has to focus on the same thing
[17:13:51] <Ge0rG> Kev: then you know the answer to daniel's initial question on how to name MUCs?
[17:13:53] <moparisthebest> well yea that's a good example, but also UX considerations in other XEPs
[17:14:25] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I'm trying to push UX in the XSF for around two years now, and more often than not I hear the "we are about protocols, not UIs" response.
[17:14:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:14:40] <Kev> Ge0rG: I use 'rooms'. Users tend to use different terms based on their backgrounds - we come up against 'chats' quite a lot.
[17:14:53] <moparisthebest> ah I don't think I've seen that
[17:15:06] <ralphm> 'room', 'chat room', 'group', 'group chat', 'or 'channel' are just fine
[17:15:13] *** daniel has left the room
[17:15:17] <ralphm> '
[17:15:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:15:25] <Ge0rG> ralphm: just fine for whom?
[17:15:26] <moparisthebest> I don't know why you couldn't make a few UX standards recommendations in XEPs, some do right?
[17:15:50] *** daniel has left the room
[17:15:53] <ralphm> Ge0rG: people. WhatsApp uses group. Slack uses channel.
[17:15:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:16:15] <Ge0rG> ralphm: if you are helping a friend configure an XMPP client over the phone, do you tell them to look for rooms, chatrooms, group chats, channels or all of the above?
[17:16:28] <ralphm> Facebook had a thing called Rooms
[17:16:29] *** daniel has left the room
[17:16:35] *** nyco has joined the room
[17:16:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:16:44] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:17:08] <Ge0rG> I think it wouldn't hurt to standardize on a name for those, and even to provide some i18n lookups for that name.
[17:17:08] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, you ask what client first and go from there I guess
[17:17:10] <ralphm> So this is the problem right, unlike Slack or WhatsApp, there's not a single entity creating XMPP-based IM clients.
[17:17:18] *** valo has joined the room
[17:17:19] *** daniel has left the room
[17:17:25] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: so I need to remember the client->name mapping for all commonly used XMPP clients?
[17:17:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:17:40] <jonasw> moparisthebest, haha
[17:17:42] <moparisthebest> or, you do what you suggested Ge0rG , and write one-client-to-rule-them-all using electron or whatever the hot framework of the day is, and have everyone use that?
[17:17:57] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's not what I suggest.
[17:18:02] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I find it amazing how ignorant people can be about the software they’re using and how hard it can be to figure out what they use.
[17:18:11] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I suggest to have a common glossary for client developers, see https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Usability/Glossary
[17:18:15] <jonasw> they just use jabber and it takes time to figure out they run xabber/yaxim/conversations.
[17:18:26] <intosi> Ge0rG: if I'm helping friends, I tend to use the wrong terms anyway, as different operating systems use different names for everything, and different translations vary wildly. My friends and family can usually cope just fine :)
[17:18:38] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:18:41] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[17:18:51] <Ge0rG> intosi: I'm sure you have smart friends & family :)
[17:18:59] <moparisthebest> if I'm helping a friend set up xmpp over the phone I'll be telling them to install conversations and then go from there most likely
[17:19:09] <moparisthebest> if you are walking them through at that level you have to know more details meh
[17:19:10] <ralphm> I would probably not ever suggest 'conference' as a name, unless it was about AV ones
[17:19:18] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, I think a glossary is a great idea
[17:19:25] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:19:41] <Ge0rG> It's called Multi-User Chat.
[17:19:53] <ralphm> I have a hard time helping my family and friends anyway, because they use apps in Dutch, which I hate.
[17:20:00] <Ge0rG> or short "MUC" - a term that really nobody outside of the core XMPP community can relate to
[17:20:04] <intosi> ^ with ralphm on that
[17:21:10] <Ge0rG> If we had a database of jabber-related terms and their translations, you could use those when on support duty :P
[17:22:02] <moparisthebest> that's a different problem actually, translating technical terms sounds rough
[17:22:29] *** daniel has left the room
[17:22:54] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:23:04] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[17:23:44] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:25:01] <ralphm> That's why you shouldn't use them
[17:25:08] <ralphm> Group or Room translate really well
[17:25:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:26:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:26:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:26:35] <Zash> ralphm: And then comes "MIX"
[17:26:44] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:26:56] <moparisthebest> maybe you provide 1 UI since the user doesn't care, it's all a 'Group' to them
[17:27:07] *** goffi has joined the room
[17:27:23] *** tux has joined the room
[17:27:25] <moparisthebest> I am basically the last person to try to make UI decisions, I can tell if I like something or not, but that's it
[17:27:49] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:27:49] <moparisthebest> I'm the only one I know personally that's been using KDE for the last 11 years, for example
[17:28:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:28:23] <ralphm> Zash: for MIX the concept is still Room
[17:28:34] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:28:34] *** daniel has left the room
[17:28:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:29:10] <ralphm> You can even make MIX rooms be accessible via MUC if you put in the engineering effort
[17:29:21] *** daniel has left the room
[17:29:22] <dwd> ralphm, I think MIX is Channel, but yeah.
[17:29:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:29:53] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[17:29:59] <ralphm> ok
[17:30:01] <Ge0rG> dwd: is that different from MUC?
[17:30:18] <ralphm> So yeah, we have MUC Rooms and MIX Channels
[17:30:18] <dwd> Ge0rG, MUC talks about Rooms. MIX talks about Channels, as I recall.
[17:30:37] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[17:30:37] <Ge0rG> dwd: why should we use different terms? To a user, it's all the same
[17:30:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:30:40] *** arc has left the room
[17:30:41] *** arc has joined the room
[17:30:45] <ralphm> It doesn't matter much, and if you really care, we could change it before going to Draft
[17:31:11] <ralphm> You'd have to rename some elements, though
[17:31:37] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure you need to map XEP language into the UI 1:1
[17:31:38] <moparisthebest> what does what the protocol calls protocol-level things have to do with UI ?
[17:32:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:32:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:32:21] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:33:09] *Ge0rG got to go. read you later.
[17:33:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:34:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:35:57] *** intosi shows as "online"
[17:36:09] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[17:36:09] *** marc has left the room
[17:36:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:36:17] *** waqas has joined the room
[17:36:38] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[17:36:38] *** intosi has left the room
[17:37:11] <dwd> Nice if they align, though. Makes it much simpler for newcomers.
[17:39:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:39:37] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:40:01] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:41:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:45:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:46:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:49:30] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:50:11] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:50:11] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[17:51:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:53:45] *** daniel has left the room
[17:54:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:55:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:59:48] *** arc has left the room
[17:59:50] *** arc has joined the room
[18:00:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:02:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:02:36] *** jubalh has left the room
[18:03:15] *** arc has left the room
[18:04:00] *** Arc has joined the room
[18:05:21] *** arc has joined the room
[18:06:13] *** jere has joined the room
[18:06:57] *** McKael shows as "online"
[18:09:26] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:09:31] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:09:31] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:11:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:12:55] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:13:49] *** goffi has left the room
[18:14:20] *** uc has left the room
[18:14:34] *** uc has joined the room
[18:15:01] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[18:16:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:17:30] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:18:23] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:18:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:21:58] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[18:23:43] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[18:23:43] *** Arc shows as "online"
[18:25:21] *** Guus has left the room
[18:25:22] *** Guus has joined the room
[18:27:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[18:28:09] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[18:28:32] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:28:32] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:28:48] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:28:59] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:29:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:32:15] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:32:15] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[18:32:26] *** burrblurr has left the room
[18:34:52] *** Guus has left the room
[18:36:12] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:36:15] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:37:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:37:46] *** goffi has joined the room
[18:38:13] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:38:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:39:08] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:39:12] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:39:19] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:39:19] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:43:42] *** bjc shows as "away"
[18:46:15] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:47:20] *** intosi has joined the room
[18:47:23] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:47:59] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:48:22] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:49:20] *** Zash has left the room
[18:50:28] *** bjc shows as "online"
[18:50:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:57:54] <Flow> lovetox: regarding your question yesterday: Does that https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/541 suit your needs?
[18:59:00] <jonasw> Flow, any reason you went for a patch-level version number increase?
[18:59:22] <jonasw> I would like to get semver-like versioning in XEPs, if possible.
[18:59:29] <jonasw> this feels more like a 0.3 than a 0.2.1 to me
[19:00:13] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:00:19] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:01:36] <lovetox> flow yes this solves the problem, but then it seems even harder to solve the use case about invalidating keys
[19:01:48] <lovetox> because now you have no notifications at all anymore after sub
[19:03:23] <lovetox> i think if we design this, we should at least make distributing and retracting keys have a good workflow
[19:04:09] <lovetox> i think there is no way around having something like a metanode
[19:04:24] <lovetox> that tells us new keys are there and old keys should be rewoked
[19:05:57] *** Valerian has left the room
[19:08:22] *** lumi shows as "xa" and his status message is "(Idle 60 min)"
[19:09:11] *** marc has joined the room
[19:12:24] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:17:23] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:17:23] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:17:24] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:17:57] *** Valerian has joined the room
[19:19:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:19:33] <Flow> lovetox, the service still would send notifications if a new item is added, no?
[19:20:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:20:37] <lovetox> em no?
[19:20:48] <lovetox> last published item is set to on_sub or never
[19:20:50] <Flow> jonasw, I don't care that mutch, but then again, it rather had the deferred status change a patch level
[19:21:16] <Flow> lovetox, isn't send_last_published_item a per node setting?
[19:21:41] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:22:15] <jonasw> Flow, did you mean "I’d rather have had the deferred status change a patch level"?
[19:22:34] *** Lance has joined the room
[19:22:35] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:22:38] <Flow> and, I think a PubSub server would still send notifications on publish, regardless of the value of send_last_published_item
[19:23:02] <Flow> jonasw, that yes :)
[19:23:14] <lovetox> but we dont receive that publish if we are not online
[19:23:20] <jonasw> Flow, I’m not set on the version change level for deferrals, really. I’m not sure if minor or patch makes more sense.
[19:23:21] <Flow> lovetox, why not?
[19:23:27] *** Lance has left the room
[19:23:32] <jonasw> I’m happy with changing it to patch, nobody else voiced concern about that yet.
[19:23:43] <Flow> …if your service stores offline messages
[19:23:47] <jonasw> Changing normative language should, imo, most of the time be minor level or major level, depending.
[19:24:13] <lovetox> flow this is seems like totally new territory
[19:24:23] <lovetox> now suddenly the xep depends on offline message, and mam
[19:24:35] <Flow> lovetox, also you could still query the node, that is how it was meant to be used primarly
[19:24:55] <lovetox> i thought we polling xeps are bad
[19:24:57] <Flow> You shouldn't really try to rely on having received the latest status of the node
[19:25:07] <Flow> lovetox, depends on the case i'd say
[19:25:18] <jonasw> polling is annoying
[19:25:21] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:25:28] <Flow> all generalization are bad
[19:25:35] <jonasw> that’s not true! ;-)
[19:25:41] <lovetox> Flow, it seems you try really hard to make your approach at this work
[19:25:59] <Flow> lovetox, I haven't heard an alternative
[19:26:18] <Flow> you said something like the "do the OMEMO approach", but I think OMEMO also uses PEP?
[19:26:18] <lovetox> i did that at least 3 times now
[19:26:26] <Flow> lovetox, must have missed it
[19:26:27] <lovetox> introduce a metanode
[19:26:40] <lovetox> clients publish valid keyids to it
[19:26:48] <Flow> brb
[19:26:49] <lovetox> clients receive these on every start
[19:27:04] <Zash> "on_presence"?
[19:27:09] <lovetox> yes
[19:27:26] <lovetox> then clients do a poll at node:keyid if the dont know the key id
[19:27:32] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:27:35] <lovetox> and get the key
[19:27:49] <lovetox> that way you have minimal traffic, 2 or 3 keyids is small
[19:27:57] <lovetox> and only have to pull keys if they are new to you
[19:28:17] <lovetox> at the same moment you could say, every key that is not inside the metanode, has to be retracted
[19:28:31] <Flow> I had to think about it a bit more, and I'd like to see a list discussion regarding this
[19:28:33] <Zash> What's the context here?
[19:28:48] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:28:52] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:29:03] <Flow> Zash, OX sending the full OpenPGP pubkey on every available presncen if you don't configure the node to not do so
[19:29:16] <Flow> lovetox, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea
[19:29:24] <Flow> please post on list
[19:29:41] <lovetox> i already have haha, but i dig it out again and write something :)
[19:29:44] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[19:29:44] *** Arc shows as "online"
[19:29:49] <Zash> So you'd like something like how the avatars and stuff works?
[19:30:13] <lovetox> yes shit, why didnt i thought of it, thats way easier way to describe it
[19:30:19] <lovetox> its exactly like avatars work
[19:30:27] <jonasw> :D
[19:30:40] <jonasw> I wonder whether there should be an informational XEP for bulk storage in PEP
[19:30:55] <jonasw> so that people writing XEPs have something to base their work on
[19:30:55] <lovetox> Flow, we really should get this going, people are annoyed by OMEMOs perfect forward secrecy
[19:31:14] <Zash> jonasw: Like 222/223, or what do you mean by bulk?
[19:31:28] <moparisthebest> I also think OX is perfect for building Onion XMPP on top of, fyi
[19:33:53] <jonasw> Zash, I don’t think that 222/223 address the costs of sending the whole contents on each connection.
[19:34:20] <jonasw> (so maybe an informational one which addresses the issues of on_presence + large amounts of data)
[19:34:29] <jonasw> (e.g. base64’d crypto keys, avatars, …)
[19:34:46] <Zash> I believe you can have notifications that don't include the payload.
[19:35:07] <jonasw> which doesn’t help because PEP/PubSub often only allows for one item
[19:35:25] <jonasw> (okay, the @id is probably enough if it’s randomly generated by the server to know that you need to poll the data…)
[19:36:48] <Zash> Did I post to the list about me thinking that PEP should have even fewer required features, and a separate extended PEP for more advanced usecases?
[19:37:18] <Zash> Like 222/223, if those weren't Informational
[19:37:19] <jonasw> Zash, yes, I thnik so
[19:37:32] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:37:45] <zinid> Zash: why? users will anyway annoy you to death and you will end up implementing advanced version
[19:37:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:38:20] <Zash> zinid: They already do and I'm already on it.
[19:38:21] <moparisthebest> could just discover PGP keys via DNS instead, at least it's already spec'd out and implemented
[19:38:54] <zinid> Zash: so why do you need this separation then? :)
[19:39:15] <Zash> Because I like separation
[19:39:46] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:39:59] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:41:10] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:41:10] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[19:42:04] <Zash> A bunch of the simpler things like Mood and Activity don't require all the features mandated by PEP, so why not make the minimal baseline be smaller so new implementations won't have to figure out what MUSTs they can ignore.
[19:42:06] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:42:18] <Zash> And a more clear target for stage two, or whatyoucallit
[19:42:39] <Ge0rG> And then people end up storing their bookmarks in private XML.
[19:42:42] <Zash> It'll inevitably end up being all of xep-60 in the end anyways
[19:43:26] <Zash> Ge0rG: make bookmarks depend on 22[23] (whichever was the private one)
[19:43:34] <Zash> -xep 222
[19:43:34] <Bunneh> Zash: Persistent Storage of Public Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0222.html
[19:43:36] <Zash> -xep 223
[19:43:36] <Bunneh> Zash: Persistent Storage of Private Data via PubSub (Informational, Active, 2008-09-08)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0223.html
[19:44:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:44:53] *** marc has left the room
[19:45:52] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:47:12] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:47:12] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:52:04] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:52:28] *** Alex has left the room
[19:55:35] *** Guus has joined the room
[19:57:38] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:58:39] *** xnyhps has left the room
[19:59:33] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[19:59:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:59:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:01:08] *** marc has joined the room
[20:06:41] *** daniel has left the room
[20:06:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[20:06:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:06:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[20:07:38] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:09:10] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:09:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:09:16] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:09:46] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:09:46] *** Arc shows as "online"
[20:18:46] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:21:19] *** bjc has left the room
[20:21:41] *** bjc has joined the room
[20:21:42] *** bjc shows as "online"
[20:25:38] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[20:32:43] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:32:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:37:15] *** Valerian has left the room
[20:37:20] *** Valerian has joined the room
[20:37:28] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:37:44] *** zinid has left the room
[20:37:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:38:02] *** Valerian has left the room
[20:39:49] *** Valerian has joined the room
[20:47:13] *** Guus has left the room
[20:47:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:48:05] *** Guus has left the room
[20:48:33] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:48:55] *** daniel has left the room
[20:48:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:49:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:53:31] *** bjc shows as "away"
[20:55:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:55:22] *** daniel has left the room
[20:55:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:55:52] *** Guus has left the room
[20:59:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:59:20] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:59:20] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[20:59:26] *** goffi has left the room
[20:59:32] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:00:28] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:01:17] *** lumi has left the room
[21:01:43] *** bjc shows as "online"
[21:02:02] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:02:08] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:04:10] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:05:17] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:07:42] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:07:42] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[21:13:02] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[21:13:02] *** Arc shows as "online"
[21:13:46] *** daniel has left the room
[21:13:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:14:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[21:14:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "online"
[21:15:15] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:15:15] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:17:23] *** intosi has joined the room
[21:17:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[21:20:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:22:56] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:23:15] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:23:37] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:31:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:31:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:34:10] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:34:41] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:36:03] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:36:23] *** zinid has left the room
[21:37:17] *** zinid has joined the room
[21:37:36] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:38:12] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:38:17] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:39:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:45:13] *** lovetox has left the room
[21:45:57] <SamWhited> After our discussion this morning I came over all British and had my afternoon cup of of Earl Grey with milk in it… dwd is a corrupting influence.
[21:49:50] *** tux has left the room
[21:50:59] *** daniel has left the room
[21:53:11] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[21:54:11] *** Zash has left the room
[21:59:08] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:59:25] *** bjc has left the room
[22:01:16] *** bjc has joined the room
[22:01:16] *** bjc shows as "online"
[22:02:01] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[22:02:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:02:44] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:02:45] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[22:02:45] *** intosi has left the room
[22:03:20] *** daniel has left the room
[22:03:23] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:04:45] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[22:05:30] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:05:30] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:06:21] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[22:06:23] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:09:27] *** bjc has left the room
[22:10:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:12:08] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[22:12:08] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:15:36] *** intosi has joined the room
[22:16:20] *** burrblurr has left the room
[22:19:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:21:09] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:24:00] <moparisthebest> I always assumed Earl grey was French because of jean-luc Picard liking it so much
[22:24:37] <SamWhited> I always assumed it was from space.
[22:25:24] <waqas> Something something Plan 9
[22:26:13] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[22:26:13] *** intosi has left the room
[22:27:10] *** intosi has joined the room
[22:27:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:27:45] <SamWhited> Did Picard work at Bell labs? I don't remember that being a part of the series.
[22:27:54] *** dwd shows as "online"
[22:33:07] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:33:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:40:00] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:43:35] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:43:35] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[22:45:35] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:47:03] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[22:47:42] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[22:47:42] *** intosi has left the room
[22:50:00] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:59:09] *** matlag has left the room
[23:01:26] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:01:42] *** jubalh has joined the room
[23:03:22] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[23:03:22] *** Arc shows as "online"
[23:03:38] *** daniel has left the room
[23:03:41] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:05:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[23:08:57] *** burrblurr has joined the room
[23:15:34] *** jubalh has left the room
[23:18:37] *** daniel has left the room
[23:21:57] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:23:45] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:24:18] *** burrblurr has left the room
[23:24:19] *** daniel has left the room
[23:24:24] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:34:00] *** efrit has joined the room
[23:43:59] *** Valerian has left the room
[23:45:59] *** edhelas has left the room
[23:46:01] *** Valerian has joined the room
[23:46:27] *** edhelas has joined the room
[23:50:06] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:52:06] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:52:06] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[23:52:52] *** Valerian has left the room
[23:53:43] *** daniel has left the room
[23:53:46] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:58:09] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:58:09] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:58:11] *** jubalh has joined the room
[23:59:51] *** jubalh has left the room
[23:59:54] *** jubalh has joined the room
[23:59:58] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"
[23:59:59] *** Arc shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm not here right now"