Thursday, November 16, 2017
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:18:30] <Ge0rG> Can't we just cease Board and Council meeting in the few weeks between DST changes here and over the pond?
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[09:20:16] <jonasw> Ge0rG, hasn’t DST changed over already and the actual issue is that the meeting is now effectively an hour earlier everywhere?
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[09:21:16] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if we anchor the meeting time in local time and cease meetings when the DST status is incosnstent between countries, this is probably the least annoyance for everyone except for people who have all their other meetings anchored on UTC
[09:21:54] <jonasw> timezones suck
[09:22:17] <jonasw> so what you’re saying is not "cease meetings between DST changes" but "anchor meetings on local time instead of UTC".
[09:22:24] <jonasw> (+ the former)
[09:22:34] <jonasw> (because ceasing the meetings wouldn’t have helped with board which was anchored in UTC)
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[09:27:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: right, exactly that
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[11:34:49] <pep.> jonasw, https://www.mail-archive.com/standards@xmpp.org/msg18154.html, I'm still reading through the threads. "Examples of markup which falls back to plaintext gracefully", and you include xhtml in the counter examples. How is that a counter example
[11:35:18] <jonasw> pep., because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable
[11:35:35] <jonasw> neither is a serialized version of a table, if you assume that tags are stripped
[11:35:48] <jonasw> also links etc.
[11:35:49] <Zash> Bunneh: do ("because <b>this</b> isn’t really readable"):gsub("%b<>","")
[11:35:49] <Bunneh> Zash: because this isn’t really readable
[11:36:01] <pep.> what Zash said
[11:36:03] <jonasw> Zash, great! now do this with a table and an href and see how useful it is :)
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[11:36:37] <Zash> jonasw: I think I personally can live with tables getting messed up in IM
[11:36:39] <pep.> jonasw, I'm not sure I get the issue, you can also do that with xhtml, same as markdown
[11:36:47] <jonasw> Zash, note that I specifically did not say XHTML-IM, but XHTML.
[11:36:48] <pep.> you'll have to parse both either way
[11:37:12] <jonasw> pep., so <a href="something">here’s the site</a> I’ve been telling you about
[11:37:15] <jonasw> strip the tag away, it’s useless
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[11:37:26] <pep.> no you don't _just_ strip the tag away
[11:37:33] <jonasw> ah, then it’s not a simple fallback to plaintext anymore
[11:37:33] <pep.> of course
[11:37:37] <jonasw> and that’s what I’m saying
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[11:37:56] <jonasw> what I was referring to there is that some markups are immediately readable as plaintext without additional processing
[11:38:13] <pep.> ok, how does markdown falls back gracefully then?
[11:38:18] <jonasw> because *this* is pretty much readable
[11:38:37] <pep.> *and *this* is as* well?
[11:39:17] <jonasw> that’s not useful markdown in the first place
[11:39:22] <jonasw> so kind of not a valid argument here
[11:39:37] <jonasw> (it is equivalent to "<p><em>and </em>this* is as* well?</p>" according to pandoc)
[11:40:57] <jonasw> but that’s beside the point, kind of. Styling has much stricter rules than anymark and falls back to plaintext gracefully in all cases I think.
[11:41:14] <pep.> granted this is not a valid example. I can certainly find some, and I'm sure people have already.
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[11:41:34] <jonasw> I’ll make one for you: "*foo\*bar*"
[11:41:45] <jonasw> that’s where things get naughty, and that’s why those cases have been forbidden in Styling
[11:42:02] <pep.> Now thinking about why this question in the first place, why do we need to have this property for the markup?
[11:42:04] <Zash> Let me tell you about mod<em>foo</em>bar
[11:42:11] <jonasw> pep., I never said we do need this property.
[11:42:35] <jonasw> I said that there are sources (read: entities) which emit this type of markup and there always will be and we’ll have to deal with it somehow.
[11:42:48] <pep.> sources such as?
[11:42:56] <jonasw> humans, for example
[11:43:03] <jonasw> *I* certainly *do* write such content.
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[11:43:28] <Zash> What if /I/ write it differently?
[11:43:31] <pep.> I do as well, for stuff that my client doesn't support yet, for the rest I use xhtml-im
[11:43:33] <jonasw> another case would be:
> the sources Florian quoted when proposing Body Markup Hints
as I mentioned in my email (I’m just quoting here to add more examples of me doing that markup)
[11:44:19] <jonasw> pep., great! now let’s standardize what everyone does so that clients can encourage that behaviour by applying actual styling, thus slowly teaching everybody to use exactly that formatting
[11:44:34] <jonasw> bonus points if we let us inspire by widespread IM systems to make things more familiar
[11:44:43] <pep.> Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include random stuff in the plaintext
[11:44:50] <pep.> Well we can use actual markup, we don't have to include stuff in the plaintext
[11:44:54] <jonasw> sure
[11:45:14] <jonasw> but I found with Message Markup that it’s not trivial
[11:45:28] <jonasw> for example, when I do a list:
* foo
* bar
* baz
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[11:45:48] <Zash> Won't any actual XML markup end up in someones DOM with minimal fiddlery? Won't anything resembling Markdown go through a library that does HTML passtrough?
[11:45:54] <pep.> I wouldn't do a list like that if my client supported it
[11:45:56] <jonasw> now when marking this up with Message Markup, I would either have to remove the '* ' from the body so that the message renders nicely in MM-capable clients, or I keep the '* ' so that plaintext-only clients’ users can still understand what I’m doing
[11:46:10] <jonasw> Zash, I don’t think you can make MM end up in any dom with minimal fiddlery
[11:46:20] <jonasw> pep., wait for my point :-)
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[11:46:35] <jonasw> or rather, read my point now
[11:46:54] <jonasw> if I decide to keep the '* ', the message looks ugly in MM-capable clients, which’d essentially render each point as '• * foo'
[11:47:05] <Zash> jonasw: Is that a challenge?
[11:47:11] <jonasw> if I drop the '* ', it is unreadable to plaintext clients which would have been perfectly fine with seeing '* foo'
[11:47:13] <pep.> yeah, that's why I preferred xhtml-im in the first place
[11:47:19] <pep.> that's just ugly
[11:47:29] <jonasw> pep., XHTML-IM does exactly that, right
[11:47:35] <jonasw> so we’re back to putting markup-things in the <body/>.
[11:47:52] <Zash> XHTML-IM has two bodies
[11:47:53] <jonasw> and also have a copy of the text in <body xhtml/>, which is a really bad thing
[11:48:02] <pep.> what no xhtml doesn't do that
[11:48:06] <pep.> or let me reread
[11:48:08] <jonasw> doesn’t it?
[11:48:14] <jonasw> I thought there were rules on how to generate the plaintext
[11:48:27] <pep.> Ah, ok maybe
[11:48:31] <Zash> jonasw: multipart/alternative has worked "fine" in email since forever? :)
[11:48:32] <jonasw> indeed, theer aren’t I think
[11:48:39] <jonasw> Zash, it didn’t
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[11:48:57] <Zash> Like that email I got that said "click here" ... without a link or anything
[11:50:02] <jonasw> pep., so, would you rather have your whatever-XHTML-IM-replacement-there-will-be client put a plaintext body which is unreadable to humans (e.g. my broken list, without '* ') into the message or keep things like '* ' to make it more interpretable?
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[11:51:53] <jonasw> i.e., would you want your non-XHTML-IM-replacement-capable peer see (a):
* foo
* bar
* baz

or rather (b):
foo
bar
baz
?
[11:52:53] <pep.> I'm not sure, yet. I do put pseudo-markup in plaintext fairly often as well, emails (which are usually way more formatted than any of my messages on IM), xmpp also, for stuff like `inline code` etc.
[11:53:00] <jonasw> exactly
[11:53:10] <pep.> One thing I know for sure is that I wouldn't want this '* ' crap in the formatted version
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[11:53:22] <jonasw> exactly
[11:53:35] <pep.> I'll have to think about that a bit more
[11:53:39] <jonasw> so why not (a) standardise that pseudo markup so that everybody is on the same page and (b) also make a XEP (which I want Message Markup to be) which specifies how to put proper markup into messages *and* which specifies how a plaintext fallback has to look like?
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[11:53:50] <jonasw> and also make the plaintext fallback of Message Markup look exactly like the equivalent Styling for instant interop
[11:53:55] <jonasw> that’s kind of my plan
[11:54:07] <Zash> I'm not usually sending tables and lists in my chats
[11:54:13] <pep.> neither am I
[11:54:21] <pep.> In my emails maybe, lists definitely
[11:54:24] <jonasw> lists I do quite a bit (see above, there were a few :))
[11:54:30] <jonasw> but the same holds for quotations, really
[11:54:50] <jonasw> you really need the "> " (or other marker) in the plaintext version, but it looks ugly as heck in the rendered markup
[11:54:52] <Zash> I'm actually allergic to people who quote messages that are still in view
[11:55:03] <jonasw> I like to quote XEPs/RFCs :)
[11:55:10] <pep.> I usually try not to do that as well
[11:55:13] <Zash> Oh how very nessesary to include the message that is *right above yours*
[11:55:24] <Zash> Fine if it was hours ago and it scrolled out of view
[11:55:28] <pep.> Also "> " quotations are a fairly recent thing here I think, since conversations started it
[11:55:43] <pep.> I usually use "re <whatyouweretalkingabout>"
[11:55:48] <pep.> Or similar
[11:55:58] <jonasw> pep., I actually love that conversations adopted that
[11:56:04] <pep.> I don't really
[11:56:08] <Kev> > predates Conversations just ever so slightly. See email.
[11:56:12] <pep.> that's even more clutter
[11:56:14] <Zash> The Skype people that got me into XMPP dev did that all the time, quoting the above message. And it looked horrible because the Linux client wasn't aware of the markup used.
[11:56:28] <pep.> Kev, yeah but it does fit better in email, I don't really like that in IM
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[11:56:49] <Kev> I do it in IM, and I've never used a client that showed it as markup. It's human-readable, and obvious what you mean if you're amongst people who're email-literate.
[11:57:53] <Holger> jonasw: The problem isn't really plain-text clients but clients that don't support your markup, no?
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[11:58:11] <jonasw> Holger, that’s what I mean, yes
[11:58:16] <jonasw> do you find the wording confusing?
[11:58:23] <pep.> I get that, still it doesn't feel right to me in IM, you can usually follow a discussion easily in a groupchat, even when there are two discussions going on at the same time. What I would do is just hl the person to whom I'm talking to, and as I said earlier if I need to specify I'll use "re .." or similar
[11:58:37] <pep.> Kev ^
[11:58:46] <jonasw> pep., just today I wanted to quote a piece of RFC 6120 to somebody.
[11:58:57] <jonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion.
[11:59:23] <Zash> jonasw> it’s not (only) about quoting messages from the same discussion. <<< this is annoying tho
[11:59:33] <jonasw> also, pep., just because it isn’t *your* use case, does that mean that nobody should be able to do that?
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[11:59:34] <pep.> People do use it a lot for this
[11:59:37] <jonasw> Zash, I agree.
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[11:59:44] <jonasw> Zash, that’s kinda beside the point of the markup discussion, isn’t it?
[11:59:49] <Holger> jonasw: Yes I wasn't sure whether your concern was terminal clients specifically. While Gajim will have the same problem as long as it doesn't support your XEP and Poezio could support your markup just find by displaying "item" as "* item" or whatever.
[12:00:00] <jonasw> Holger, no, I didn’t mean to refer to terminal clients, at all.
[12:00:02] <Holger> But I'm probably just stating the obvious.
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[12:00:05] <Holger> Ok :-)
[12:00:59] <jonasw> (the fact that poezio has some XHTML-IM support should make that clear, too. It even can into boldface and colors. And italic if you’re on python 3.7 or so)
[12:01:07] <Holger> Yup.
[12:01:09] <Zash> jonasw: An example of bad markup? IIRC quotes weren't actually rendered like that ... unless you used the Linux client (the bare existence of was in itself a crime against humanity)
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[12:01:35] <pep.> At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not just replying to someone
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[12:02:52] <pep.> At work we use Mattermost, which has threads (half-arsed threads, but still), so quotation is indeed useful for things that you are actually quoting. Not replying to someone
[12:04:08] <pep.> Anyway, food is waiting
[12:04:11] <jonasw> gl
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[14:43:24] <jonasw> edhelas, is that you in #rockbox? :)
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[14:45:23] <edhelas> damn, the XSF minions are stalking me everywhere
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[14:46:46] <jonasw> I’m sorry ;-)
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[14:51:50] *Guus drafts a new wiki page on restraining orders...
[14:52:05] <jonasw> Guus, you’re one to talk, Mr. Webcam Big Brother
[14:52:29] <Guus> Which potentially makes me an expert on the matter, right? :)
[14:52:33] <jonasw> indeed
[14:52:53] <jonasw> I really need a new player, the lack of music during my commutes is driving (pun not intended) me crazy.
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[14:53:49] <Zash> Hmmm, colaborative groupchat music streaming thingymabob?
[14:54:22] <Guus> or: sing yourself?
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[14:56:22] <goffi> Zash: jonasw: https://www.goffi.org/post/2012/02/02/Collective-radio-(with-video)
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[14:57:16] <goffi> (not sure if it's still working though, I haven't used it for a while)
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[15:00:05] <Zash> goffi: fancy, I think I've seen that mentioned before
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[15:06:12] <Zash> je ne parle pas into not le francé not I'm afraid
[15:06:58] <Zash> goffi: I'm more looking for something lika moderated mpd instance
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[15:07:35] <Zash> And I'd really like get the auto-rating thing from QuodLibet into mpd
[15:07:51] <Zash> Or more of the mpd interface in ql
[15:07:53] <Zash> or both
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[15:14:31] <goffi> Zash: video is in French indeed, but it's not really need to understand the speach to see the feature
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[15:15:03] <Zash> goffi: hard to know without understanding it :)
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[15:22:06] <moparisthebest> jonasw, I use Dsub on an android phone, libresonic on the server (though now I heard of a new fork called airsonic but haven't looked into it...)
[15:24:02] <jonasw> moparisthebest, "android phone" no.
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[15:24:30] <jonasw> so many reasons, among which: bad audio quality, bad input device, low battery life
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[15:25:18] <moparisthebest> oh no I smell an audiophile, run!!!
[15:25:24] <edhelas> eheh :D
[15:25:31] <edhelas> MPD + Cantata <3
[15:25:46] <jonasw> edhelas, lovely, but that doesn’t work on-the-go unfortunately :)
[15:25:49] <Zash> jonasw: invent time travel, go back to 2001 and steal one of those usb mp3 player-thumbdrives
[15:26:10] <edhelas> jonasw using Rockbox on my iPod Photo, Cantata do the sync easily from the MPD DB
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[15:26:18] <mathieui> Zash, the ones supporting up to mp3 128k?
[15:26:20] <jonasw> Zash, I’m in fact hunting for vintage-ish devices to put rockbox on.
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[15:26:38] <jonasw> Zash, my issue is rather that my vintage device from 2004 broke and it’s hard to find an affordable replacement which I’ll be able to maintain for another 10 years.
[15:27:00] <jonasw> going for the same model again (which has 2.5" IDE storage) seems like a bad idea :)
[15:27:11] <Zash> mathieui: the ones that measured in megabytes and you'd better compress it down to that if you want more than one song on it
[15:27:38] <edhelas> jonasw you can easily change some HDD into Flash ones with cheap adapters
[15:27:46] <jonasw> edhelas, tried that
[15:27:48] <jonasw> didn’t work for my h320
[15:28:30] <edhelas> changed my IDE connector to CF, then CF to SD then SD to Micro SD now I have 32Gb flash that can be expanded :p
[15:29:02] <Zash> are therte raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?
[15:29:13] <Zash> are there still raspberry pi-like devices with 3.5mm connectors?
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[15:29:42] <jonasw> Zash, I guess so ...
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[15:30:12] <Zash> something like that, with like a battery pack taped to it? :)
[15:30:41] <jonasw> Zash, that doesn’t sound fragile at all :)
[15:30:47] <jonasw> the last fragile player I had lasted three weeks or so
[15:30:50] <Zash> I'm using some early rev raspberry ip with mpd on it
[15:31:47] <Zash> why did apple stop making the good screenless ... clip ipods?
[15:32:10] <jonasw> I like a good screen.
[15:32:13] <moparisthebest> honestly I'd buy a used android phone for $20 or something, not sure what else you would want
[15:32:22] <Zash> jonasw: you listen with your eyes?
[15:32:28] <moparisthebest> good screen, wifi, unlimited storage, 3.5 plug
[15:32:33] <Zash> shuffle!
[15:32:33] <jonasw> no, but it’s good for input feedback :)
[15:32:43] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I want a proper keyboard, for starters.
[15:32:50] <jonasw> touchscreens are annoying to use when on-the-go
[15:32:52] <edhelas> wifi ?! but why
[15:33:06] <Zash> I'd be fine with a 'next' button and nothing else
[15:33:06] <edhelas> and then you complain that you have to recharge it each 24h :D
[15:33:31] <edhelas> just put a big storage, few buttons, simple screen and a big battery
[15:34:52] <moparisthebest> jonasw, motorola droid 1 ?
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[15:35:17] <jjrh> Orange pi is another sbc
[15:35:17] <jjrh> They have a orange pi zero which is really small and has WiFi
[15:35:29] <jonasw> moparisthebest, can one control music playback with those hardware keys? ;-)
[15:35:33] <jonasw> also, way too many and too tiny
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[15:35:48] <moparisthebest> probably?
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[15:36:00] <moparisthebest> oh wait if you only want next/previous etc all of them have hardware buttons
[15:36:04] <moparisthebest> up/down etc
[15:36:08] <Zash> moparisthebest: that's me
[15:36:12] <jonasw> up down is for volume, isn’t it?
[15:36:18] <jjrh> Zash if you want a small mp3 player look on AliExpress and sites like that
[15:36:22] <moparisthebest> you can configure it to be for whatever
[15:36:33] <jonasw> moparisthebest, but I need both volume, updown, navigation through the library etc.
[15:36:36] <jonasw> without nasty touchness
[15:36:57] <jonasw> or unlocking the device, even though a separate device would solve that no matter the OS
[15:37:02] <jjrh> They have some nice ones that play flac
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[15:37:42] <Zash> jonasw: n900!
[15:37:47] <moparisthebest> jonasw, android phones generally have 3 hardware buttons at the bottom of the screen, volume up/down, and power
[15:37:51] <moparisthebest> any of which you can remap
[15:38:01] <jonasw> moparisthebest, those aren’t hardware buttons, those are touch
[15:38:10] <jonasw> (usually)
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[15:38:27] <Zash> go back in time to the earliest androids that had full hardware keyboards
[15:38:31] <moparisthebest> depends on device, but most devices even though it looks like screen they are actually hardware buttons you can press with screen off
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[15:38:44] <jonasw> moparisthebest, they are still capacitive touch based
[15:39:01] <jonasw> my issue is not that they wouldn’t work with the screen turned off
[15:39:08] <jonasw> I am used to operate my playback device without even looking at it
[15:39:13] <moparisthebest> why does that matter?
[15:39:19] <Zash> also, gloves
[15:39:19] <moparisthebest> you make it vibrate when you press them?
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[15:39:26] <Zash> winter is coming
[15:39:27] <jonasw> I still don’t know which key I hit
[15:39:32] <jonasw> or will hit, in advance
[15:39:41] <jonasw> it’s about haptic feedback
[15:39:43] <Zash> jonasw: headset? headset with next/prev buttons?
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[15:39:45] <jonasw> and gloves, yes
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[15:39:56] <moparisthebest> I bet some cheap android phones still come with buttons
[15:40:02] <jonasw> Zash, that’d add more parameters to the search for earphones
[15:40:27] <Zash> or get something with so little storage that you can only fit good music on it, negating the need to switch songs
[15:40:42] <jonasw> moparisthebest, even *if* that is solved: battery life, proper playback software (rockbox on androids is meh), the effort to re-configure the device to act like something it clearly isn’t and audio quality remain as issues
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[15:41:13] <moparisthebest> DSub for software, battery life should be plenty if you turn off data?
[15:41:15] <jonasw> Zash, having lived with MDs for years, I’d agree. But I have come to like the possiblity to have one or two audiobooks with me without having to manage that
[15:41:36] <Zash> MDs?
[15:41:39] <moparisthebest> my favorite thing about Dsub is it connects to your server, but caches music, and can play offline
[15:41:42] <jonasw> Zash, Mini-Discs
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[15:41:51] <jonasw> moparisthebest, it needs a server?
[15:41:52] <jonasw> nope.
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[15:42:06] <Zash> jonasw: Heh, get a *drumroll* mp3-cd player! or a walkman!
[15:42:17] <jonasw> Zash, I was seriously considering hunting for used MD players.
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[15:42:35] <jonasw> but then I’m accustomed to the great UI of rockbox, which I’d like to keep. Hands down the best mobile audio player I’ve seen so far.
[15:42:45] <Zash> I wonder if you can put an mp3 player into one of those cassette adapters...
[15:42:48] <moparisthebest> jonasw, that's the good part in my opinion, all my music is on the server, and I pick what it plays/caches whenever I'm connected to the internet
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[15:42:55] <jonasw> moparisthebest, that’s a downside for me.
[15:43:00] <moparisthebest> how do you put music on it? manually copy it? ew
[15:43:07] <jonasw> there are tools for that
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[15:43:13] <jonasw> it’d require setting up a server and handing the device credentials for internet access, meaning it needs a lockscreen
[15:43:16] <Zash> moparisthebest: what does the caching?
[15:43:20] <jonasw> at the point it needs a lockscreen it isn’t suitable for audio playback anymore
[15:44:05] <moparisthebest> Zash, Dsub the client can stream from the server and/or pre-cache them from the server and can then play anything it has offline
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[15:44:59] <Zash> Hrr, I want that as a FUSE thing
[15:45:05] <jonasw> Zash, I’m working on that!
[15:45:25] <Zash> jonasw: take my bottlecaps!!
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[15:45:45] <jonasw> Zash, follow this: https://github.com/horazont/dragonstash
[15:45:46] <moparisthebest> the server can optionally transcode on the fly too
[15:45:57] <moparisthebest> if I'm on 4G on the interstate I don't want full flacs, I want tiny oggs
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[15:46:46] <Tobias> 3
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[16:04:15] <jjrh> Man I loved my minidisc player
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[16:04:47] <jjrh> Lasted more than 24h on a rechargeable AA, could keep 4 albums compressed on a disc
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[16:05:29] <jjrh> Only issue is it broke constantly. I think Sony spent at least $1500 repairing it.
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[16:06:00] <jjrh> They would give you the receipt and it would be $500 - more than I paid for the minidisc player
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[16:06:56] <dwd> jjrh, My brother went for MiniDisc both times they tried to launch it.
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[16:07:19] <jonasw> I always disliked the proprietary nature of them.
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[16:07:31] <jonasw> like, you can’t have a device which does MD playback and digital output at the same time
[16:07:32] <dwd> jjrh, He also had a DAT deck at home, too.
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[16:08:25] <dwd> jonasw, MiniDisc used a custom audio compression codec. Mostly, it was duplicated in MPEG 1's Audio Layer 3.
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[16:09:34] <jonasw> dwd, depends
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[16:09:49] <jonasw> but that wasn’t the point, sony wouldn’t license devices with digital outputs to prevent copying
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[16:09:50] <jjrh> At the time your options were discman, expensive mp3 players with 64-128 of memory - the flash cards were around $100
[16:11:42] <Zash> portable cd players?
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[16:11:52] <jjrh> yeah discman's or whatever
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[16:12:00] <jjrh> They had crummy battery life and skipped
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[16:12:10] <moparisthebest> not if you held them super still
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[16:12:32] <Zash> I had a thing that could read mp3s and not skip thanks to some caching
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[16:12:52] <Zash> 700 mega f'in bytes of mp3s!
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[16:14:16] <Zash> must have been right around the time when it took 15 minutes to download one song
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[16:14:43] <moparisthebest> last christmas someone bought the kids a like 'vintage copy toy' of a record player, then explained it to them like an older version of CDs
[16:14:55] <moparisthebest> then we realized my kids don't know what a CD is either :)
[16:15:02] <jonasw> disturbing
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[16:17:17] <Zash> jonasw: not sure what I'm thinking about using go there. would the thing run on a jolla?
[16:17:29] <jonasw> Zash, dunno
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[16:17:53] <jonasw> jolla is an ARM, isn’t it?
[16:18:19] <Zash> I have like two mp3s on my jolla, one ringtone and one for sms singal
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[16:18:35] <jonasw> Zash, https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/GoArm "possibly™"?
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[16:18:53] <Zash> jonasw: hardware wise it's probably same as any android
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[16:19:39] <jonasw> Zash, I don’t see any reason why not then. golang compiles for ARM. it’s probably even more portable due to lack of runtime dependencies ;-)
[16:19:42] <Zash> just with some redhat-ish systemd based distro
[16:20:05] <Zash> problem two: no sshfs in its repos
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[16:20:29] <jonasw> Zash, no worries, dragonstash has it’s own SFTP client
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[16:20:47] <jonasw> don’t let yourself be fooled by the roadmap in the readme, I haven’t updated that in a while
[16:20:57] <jonasw> you need kernel support for fuse though
[16:20:57] <jjrh> Zash, those mp3 cd players came after - they still skipped
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[16:21:06] <jjrh> Minidisc was just rock solid
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[16:21:21] <jonasw> jjrh, unless you shaked the player too much :)
[16:21:40] <jjrh> well yeah none of this was a problem if you were sitting still
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[16:22:07] <moparisthebest> ah the old days of trying not to scratch them, or cleaning them off with breath and your shirt
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[16:22:11] <moparisthebest> flash is so much better
[16:22:31] <jonasw> minidiscs didn’t have the dust issue
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[16:23:14] <moparisthebest> oh just looked it up, a mini CD inside a 3.5" floppy enclosure?
[16:23:17] <moparisthebest> odd
[16:23:23] <jonasw> yeah, kind of
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[16:24:39] <jjrh> on the discs, the actual optics were a disaster. That's what always broke for me. I had a sony store warranty - best warranty service ever. It was cheaper for them to give me a new minidisc player but instead they fixed the one I had - which I appreciated because I liked that player. Compared to when my creative zen broke and I took it back to futureshop they said "nah we don't have that anymore heres a ipod look it's a upgrade!"
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[16:26:14] <jjrh> if you really want a ipod mini or whatever though china got ya back https://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-Big-promotion-Mirror-Portable-MP3-player-Mini-Clip-MP3-Player-waterproof-sport-mp3-music-player/32719915116.html
[16:26:19] <Zash> jonasw: *sigh* at yet another build toolchain to install tho
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[16:26:28] <jjrh> $1.38 can't really go wrong at that price.
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[16:26:43] <jonasw> Zash, gcc can build go too
[16:26:45] <jonasw> if that helps
[16:27:06] <Zash> jonasw: I find your lack of a Makefile .. disturbing
[16:27:16] <jonasw> one doesn’t need one with go :/
[16:27:21] <jonasw> it’s just go build and magic happens
[16:27:33] <jonasw> I’m rather new to go things
[16:27:37] <jonasw> it’s my first go project
[16:27:40] <Zash> jonasw: You don't need one with C either, just 'make thing' and it magically compiles thing.c for you
[16:28:10] <Zash> jjrh: hah, shiny, but seems legaly grayareaish
[16:28:14] <jjrh> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-100-original-English-version-Ultrathin-MP3-Player-with-4GB-storage-and-1-8-Inch-Screen/32613579921.html I bought this a year ago before traveling. It didn't play every flac I had but it was a solid little player. Software and UI could be better.
[16:28:15] <SamWhited> Zash: all the implicit C make rules make me sad though :( I've had multiple projects break because some random implicit rule was being cached and breaking things
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[16:29:21] <SamWhited> (also I think that's a GNUMake thing, isn't it? If you don't have gmake you're pretty much hosed, but that's not as big of a deal)
[16:29:23] <Zash> SamWhited: I'm more saddened by the lack of a default rule to build .so
[16:29:24] <jjrh> Zash, yeah probably wouldn't win a legal battle but hey apple decided not to sell them anymore.
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[16:48:11] <jjrh> It's too bad rockbox doesn't run on any purchable devices.
[16:48:35] <jonasw> ebay is your friend
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[16:53:36] <jjrh> Yeah I suppose, but none of their supported devices are that attractive and the chinese stuff is <$30 for pretty capable hardware.
[16:54:20] <jjrh> I should open up my ruizu and see if there is any jtag connections
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[17:38:03] <jonasw> I find the iriver h320 quite amazing
[17:38:16] <jonasw> the sansas seem fine too
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[18:01:51] <marc> jonasw, Ge0rG: that's how I would like to see invitations implemented in XMPP: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xmpp-invite.mkv
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[18:02:37] <marc> excuse my bad video editing skills :D
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[18:18:02] <jonasw> marc, that’s a solid start :)
[18:18:16] <jonasw> I’m missing a way to copy the URL without the QR-code
[18:18:46] <marc> jonasw, yes, but showing a URL on the invitation dialog is too easy ;)
[18:19:05] <jonasw> :)
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[18:19:10] <jonasw> and now we need this passwordless :)
[18:19:26] <marc> what do you mean?
[18:19:54] <jonasw> without having to type a password for the registration
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[18:20:20] <marc> and what's the password then? :D
[18:20:28] <marc> Random password?
[18:20:35] <jonasw> the idea was to use client certificates in the background and don’t assign a password at all
[18:20:51] <jonasw> to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given the token
[18:20:57] <jonasw> to add more devices, you’d have some small protocol which would allow a new device to register itself and its key with the server given a token shown on the first device
[18:21:06] <jonasw> a password could be used in addition for recovery purposes
[18:21:12] <marc> okay, yes that would be nice
[18:21:18] <jonasw> wouldn’t it? :)
[18:21:29] <marc> but that's a complete other task / xep on top, right?
[18:21:35] <jonasw> yeah, I guess so
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[18:21:44] <jonasw> but it belongs in the same big picture of easy onboarding
[18:21:53] <marc> I wouldn't mix this with invitation
[18:21:57] <marc> jonasw, of course!
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[18:22:03] <jonasw> yeah, don’t mix that protocol-wise :)
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[18:23:20] <marc> jonasw, okay, so in your opinion it's worth to write / publish a XEP for this, right?
[18:23:31] <jonasw> I think so
[18:23:40] <jonasw> I bet it will require some building on
[18:23:45] <jonasw> are you familiar with the XEP process?
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[18:24:05] <jonasw> (like, I can imagine that Ge0rG will have some ideas on this, but the basic idea is solid, I think)
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[19:22:31] <marc> jonasw, no I don't :)
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[19:24:51] <jonasw> marc, so aside from all the formalities, the process is basically: fork and clone the https://github.com/xsf/xeps/ repository, copy xep-template.xml to inbox/my-fancy-new-xep.xml, fill out the blanks and write down what you want to write down, git add, git commit, and make a PR with your commit
[19:25:04] <jonasw> if you want more details about the formalities, those are written down in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html
[19:25:19] <jonasw> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html but this is probably what you should read first
[19:25:27] <jonasw> (Guidelines for Authors of XMPP Extension Protocols)
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[19:25:43] <jonasw> if you’ve got any further questions, feel free to ask here
[19:25:49] <marc> jonasw, I'll read this, thanks!
[19:25:52] <jonasw> (or ping me specifically, be aware though that PMs don’t work right in this room, IIRC)
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[19:27:13] <jonasw> (you won’t have to read all of 143, most likely, since much of it is self-explaining, I think)
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