XSF Discussion - 2017-11-20


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  110. pep. Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?
  111. jonasw not without losing the association with the conversation they belong to
  112. pep. to other resources, to update the reading status.*
  113. pep. I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages to outbound stanzas?
  114. pep. I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas?
  115. jonasw what’d be the use?
  116. pep. Updating the reading status on other resources
  117. pep. And only that
  118. pep. It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates
  119. jonasw mhm
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  121. jonasw I don’t think there’s something for that
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  123. jonasw I guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs
  124. pep. Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers
  125. jonasw okay
  126. jonasw I don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here
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  133. pep. jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicknames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
  134. pep. jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
  135. jonasw same thing
  136. pep. not it's not
  137. jonasw hm, feel free to discuss that there
  138. jonasw heading out now
  139. pep. k
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  144. pep. People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past
  145. pep. Even if I'd like them back
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  147. Ge0rG the admins always know your jid
  148. pep. sure
  149. pep. But owners don't have to
  150. pep. Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it
  151. zinid what if I don't want anonymous rooms?
  152. pep. zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm
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  154. Guus Membership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!
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  158. Ge0rG Guus: speaking of me?
  159. Ge0rG Kind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants
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  161. Guus Ge0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)
  162. Ge0rG Guus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?
  163. intosi No.
  164. intosi If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.
  165. Ge0rG Somehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.
  166. Ge0rG intosi: thanks!
  167. intosi The council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.
  168. Guus Ge0rG: stop procrastinating :)
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  170. Ge0rG Guus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(
  171. intosi As long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)
  172. pep. Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)
  173. Guus pep. check your mail.
  174. pep. thanks
  175. zinid What's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?
  176. zinid Why can't one apply directly?
  177. intosi Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.
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  180. zinid intosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote
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  182. zinid Membership is meaningless
  183. zinid Everybody vote "yes" always
  184. intosi Yes, that's something I don't like, either.
  185. intosi FWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.
  186. intosi * carefully.
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  188. zinid I wish the world would be better 😁
  189. intosi It's a start.
  190. pep. zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be
  191. pep. :P
  192. pep. (I do as well)
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  194. Ge0rG zinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.
  195. Ge0rG zinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P
  196. mathieui 10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)
  197. Kev I believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.
  198. MattJ Board is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation
  199. Kev ^
  200. MattJ Obvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential
  201. MattJ On the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)
  202. Guus which (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members
  203. Guus did we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?
  204. MattJ We've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member
  205. Guus ah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.
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  207. jonasw zinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join
  208. zinid And membership assumes technical competence?
  209. zinid jonasw: I see several people from the same organization
  210. jonasw zinid, don’t quote me on the details
  211. zinid jonasw: what?
  212. jonasw it’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined
  213. zinid Ah
  214. zinid But requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane
  215. mathieui zinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge
  216. Guus the max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws
  217. zinid mathieui: this is the assumption only
  218. zinid bylaws...
  219. mathieui zinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical
  220. mathieui not to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much
  221. zinid mathieui: then don't call it technical
  222. mathieui zinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)
  223. zinid mathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?
  224. Guus yes.
  225. mathieui in fact yes
  226. zinid Ok
  227. mathieui in a previous election the was quite the debate
  228. mathieui since some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something
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  231. Ge0rG That makes for an interesting process...
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  336. dwd Voted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.
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  338. Guus Guus: -"no"- "hell no"
  339. Guus Sam, we need strikethrough.
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  345. SamWhited Soon.
  346. SamWhited ~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!
  347. Guus oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
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  354. vanitasvitae > oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ... That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.
  355. Zash Only one? Why not three
  356. mathieui time to stop using text-based markup please
  357. mathieui (especially strikethrough)
  358. Kev As long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.
  359. Zash Oh don't get me started on ^W
  360. Guus ~no!~^w
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  366. SouL Hi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.
  367. SamWhited SouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!
  368. SouL I did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again
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  370. dwd SouL, you'll need it in your roster.
  371. SouL Ah ok, that's something new :D
  372. mathieui ping Guus ^
  373. mathieui you need to get added
  374. dwd By Alex.
  375. mathieui right, my bad, sorry
  376. mathieui zinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?
  377. zinid mathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?
  378. mathieui not sure
  379. lovetox when i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction
  380. lovetox https://share.hoerist.com/philipp/llg9Z3tyENAzldF8/0001tgqa.gif
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  383. jonasw mathieui, lol
  384. Guus I have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.
  385. mathieui Guus, yeah, sorry
  386. Guus no worries
  387. SouL All fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)
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  402. Link Mauve Speaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?
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  404. Ge0rG Link Mauve: send a PR?
  405. Link Mauve Ge0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.
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  407. Ge0rG Link Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?
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  410. Link Mauve I mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.
  411. Link Mauve Council in this case.
  412. Ge0rG Link Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"
  413. Ge0rG it would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.
  414. Link Mauve Ok.
  415. Link Mauve There, fixed.
  416. Zash Maybe posting to members@ as well?
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  418. Ge0rG Ouch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.
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  420. Link Mauve I’m far behind on that. :x
  421. Link Mauve But the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!
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  433. Guus Good, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/
  434. Guus I had some nice conversations none-the-less.
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  463. daniel Is there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?
  464. daniel It should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway
  465. SamWhited I think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.
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  468. Guus well, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?
  469. Zash Does the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?
  470. Guus I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
  471. daniel Yeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...
  472. Zash "Why don't you just do it right from the start?"
  473. Zash Protocol and API design is hard
  474. daniel I'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker
  475. daniel > I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload... In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary
  476. Guus wel live and learn :)
  477. Guus we*
  478. Zash live, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure
  479. Zash The last MAM bump comes to mind
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  482. Ge0rG If only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements
  483. Guus Ge0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉
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  485. Ge0rG Guus: vote Ge0rG!
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  487. Guus Ge0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.
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  489. Zash The cake is a lie!
  490. Ge0rG Guus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice
  491. Guus AND HE SCORES!
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  494. Guus Ge0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁
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  496. Ge0rG I remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣
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  498. Zash Ge0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity
  499. mathieui "implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"
  500. Guus "He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"
  501. Guus I shall use this new power in future mailings.
  502. Ge0rG Zash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?
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  506. Ge0rG Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
  507. Ge0rG Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
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  518. daniel Ge0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?
  519. daniel *as well
  520. Flow Ge0rG, which proposed protocol was this?
  521. Ge0rG daniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.
  522. Ge0rG Flow: I'm not going to name names now.
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  525. Zash If you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?
  526. Ge0rG Zash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...
  527. Zash Hnngrr
  528. daniel Conversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.
  529. daniel Currently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well
  530. Zash Maybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?
  531. daniel That's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'
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  533. Zash How is that different from an 'active' chat state?
  534. Daniel Wisnewski Hi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?
  535. daniel Fundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions
  536. Zash daniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?
  537. daniel Zash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active
  538. Zash daniel: so you keep track of receipts too
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  540. daniel yes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated
  541. Zash so having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me
  542. daniel i know that you feel that way
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  545. jonasw Daniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one
  546. jonasw Guus and Alex too
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  548. Daniel Wisnewski Ahh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw
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