Monday, November 20, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:11:04] <pep.> Is there a way to send chat markers only to oneself?
[08:11:24] <jonasw> not without losing the association with the conversation they belong to
[08:11:49] <pep.> to other resources, to update the reading status.*
[08:12:35] <pep.> I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages to outbound stanzas?
[08:12:45] <pep.> I guess I could have a module on the server for that. strip markers from messages for outbound stanzas?
[08:13:39] <jonasw> what’d be the use?
[08:13:59] <pep.> Updating the reading status on other resources
[08:14:03] <pep.> And only that
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[08:14:25] <pep.> It's a bit more finegrained than chatstates
[08:14:44] <jonasw> mhm
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[08:14:54] <jonasw> I don’t think there’s something for that
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[08:15:07] <jonasw> I guess one could specify that servers shall filter outbound chat markerrs for non-presence-subscribed contatcs
[08:15:29] <pep.> Well even contacts, I don't want to send markers
[08:15:39] <jonasw> okay
[08:16:00] <jonasw> I don’t think that there’s any type of existing protocol here
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[08:24:13] <pep.> jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicknames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
[08:24:39] <pep.> jonasw, "The downside is that entities using different nicksnames while the JID is known get colored differently." is that in reference to my first point? People using a different nick on different rooms. Or the second one with people not using MSN on the same rooms.
[08:24:39] <jonasw> same thing
[08:24:43] <pep.> not it's not
[08:25:22] <jonasw> hm, feel free to discuss that there
[08:25:27] <jonasw> heading out now
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[08:25:28] <pep.> k
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[08:29:48] <pep.> People talk about anonymous rooms, but that's usually to refer to semi-anonymous rooms, right? From what I see in 0045, full anonymous rooms are a thing of the past
[08:29:59] <pep.> Even if I'd like them back
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[08:30:57] <Ge0rG> the admins always know your jid
[08:31:07] <pep.> sure
[08:31:16] <pep.> But owners don't have to
[08:31:32] <pep.> Anyway I just wanted to clarify the point, I'm not here to debate it
[08:31:32] <zinid> what if I don't want anonymous rooms?
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[08:33:00] <pep.> zinid, I could return the question. But I'm not here to argue about it atm
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[08:39:26] <Guus> Membership Application Q4 closes tomorrow. Many people didn't renew yet, including at least one candidate for Council (which requires membership). Give me a poke if you need a wiki account people!
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[08:46:03] <Ge0rG> Guus: speaking of me?
[08:46:24] <Ge0rG> Kind of shady to apply for Council and then not to renew the membership, especially as one of the more active wiki participants
[08:46:47] <Guus> Ge0rG: yes, stop messing with the system! :)
[08:47:18] <Ge0rG> Guus: I really wonder - would the Council election need to be repeated?
[08:47:36] <intosi> No.
[08:47:41] <intosi> If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council.
[08:47:56] <Ge0rG> Somehow I misremembered the Q4 date, though it's end of this week.
[08:48:00] <Ge0rG> intosi: thanks!
[08:48:02] <intosi> The council can then determine itself whether to fill the vancancy.
[08:48:15] <Guus> Ge0rG: stop procrastinating :)
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[08:48:41] <Ge0rG> Guus: I'm awfully busy with real-life things :(
[08:49:16] <intosi> As long as you have your name, contact details, and affiliations listed on that page, you'll be fine ;)
[08:49:22] <pep.> Guus, can I get an account? pep. / pep@bouah.net (or pep, or pep_ if that conflicts with things)
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[08:50:21] <Guus> pep. check your mail.
[08:50:25] <pep.> thanks
[08:52:50] <zinid> What's the point in being a member to be able to apply for Council?
[08:53:06] <zinid> Why can't one apply directly?
[08:55:38] <intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? Ideally, the members voted onto council are not only members, but even experienced members of the community.
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[08:57:15] <zinid> intosi: probably everyone should be able to apply and anybody should be able to vote
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[08:57:39] <zinid> Membership is meaningless
[08:58:10] <zinid> Everybody vote "yes" always
[08:58:29] <intosi> Yes, that's something I don't like, either.
[08:59:04] <intosi> FWIW, I determine the 'yes' or 'no' for every individual applying or reapplying. I wish more people did this.
[08:59:13] <intosi> * carefully.
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[09:02:14] <zinid> I wish the world would be better 😁
[09:02:22] <intosi> It's a start.
[09:02:51] <pep.> zinid, FTFY, I wish the world would be like I want it to be
[09:02:52] <pep.> :P
[09:03:05] <pep.> (I do as well)
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[09:09:52] <Ge0rG> zinid: membership as a prerequisite is a good thing, at least it can prevent hostile takeovers.
[09:10:20] <Ge0rG> zinid: BTW, you are able to apply, and you can do so until tomorrow :P
[09:11:32] <mathieui> 10:00:37 intosi> Perhaps because it's the Council of the XSF, and being a member of said XSF is not an unreasonable requirement? → but then, why is it not required for board? (I’m not a strong proponent of either, but for the sake of the argument)
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[09:12:51] <Kev> I believe the argument is that you have to be technically competent to be on Council, whereas for Board you don't need to be.
[09:12:55] <MattJ> Board is less about technical merit or prior involvement with XMPP, Board is more about the knowledge of managing a business/foundation
[09:13:04] <Kev> ^
[09:13:38] <MattJ> Obvious I think in most cases an XMPP background is beneficial, but I don't think it's essential
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[09:13:56] <MattJ> On the other hand I think it's pretty essential for Council :)
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[09:18:25] <Guus> which (for arguments sake) should in itself be covered by being elected by the rest of the members
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[09:19:40] <Guus> did we ever have someone not apply for Council, because he was not a member? Did we ever have an application for membership be rejected?
[09:20:23] <MattJ> We've had rejected membership applications. I'm not sure it's easy to know whether someone didn't apply for council because they weren't a member
[09:20:56] <Guus> ah, I didn't expect that. Well, that's a good thing in a way.
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[09:28:56] <jonasw> zinid, IIRC, membership is restricted if too many people from the same organization/company attempt to join
[09:29:34] <zinid> And membership assumes technical competence?
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[09:30:14] <zinid> jonasw: I see several people from the same organization
[09:30:37] <jonasw> zinid, don’t quote me on the details
[09:30:56] <zinid> jonasw: what?
[09:31:02] <jonasw> it’s just basically the answer I got when I asked why I have to provide my employer, because that’s kind of not-well-defined
[09:31:13] <zinid> Ah
[09:33:05] <zinid> But requiring only a single member from the same organization would be sane
[09:33:27] <mathieui> zinid, “Membership in the XMPP Standards Foundation is a privilege that is granted by existing members to active participants in the Jabber/XMPP community.” FYI, which, in one way or another, is supposed to be linked to some technical competence or at least knowledge
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[09:34:01] <Guus> the max member/org limitation is stated in the bylaws
[09:34:16] <zinid> mathieui: this is the assumption only
[09:34:36] <zinid> bylaws...
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[09:35:05] <mathieui> zinid, you can’t really add a technical interview process to XSF membership, it’s not practical
[09:35:18] <mathieui> not to mention non-technical people can contribute just as much
[09:35:26] <zinid> mathieui: then don't call it technical
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[09:36:14] <mathieui> zinid, also, XSF bylaws, 2.1: “An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.” (what Guus said)
[09:37:06] <zinid> mathieui: anybody counts this percent during elections?
[09:37:38] <Guus> yes.
[09:37:41] <mathieui> in fact yes
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[09:37:49] <zinid> Ok
[09:37:54] <mathieui> in a previous election the was quite the debate
[09:38:07] <mathieui> since some applications made the percentage go over 15% or something
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[09:43:41] <Ge0rG> That makes for an interesting process...
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[15:12:03] <dwd> Voted. Immediately changed my mind and voted again.
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[15:25:59] <Guus> Guus: -"no"- "hell no"
[15:26:11] <Guus> Sam, we need strikethrough.
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[15:42:06] <SamWhited> Soon.
[15:43:19] <SamWhited> ~It doesn't work for me~ it works for me!
[15:45:42] <Guus> oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
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[16:06:10] <vanitasvitae> > oh my. I even implemented that in the client that I'm using right _now_ ...
That is rendered as italic in conversations, but underlined in gajim. Time for a standard.
[16:06:35] <Zash> Only one? Why not three
[16:06:44] <mathieui> time to stop using text-based markup please
[16:06:59] <mathieui> (especially strikethrough)
[16:08:20] <Kev> As long as clients understand that ^w should remove the previous word, and ^h the previous character, and render appropriately, of course.
[16:08:43] <Zash> Oh don't get me started on ^W
[16:10:10] <Guus> ~no!~^w
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[16:31:28] <SouL> Hi guys, I've been super busy (although this should change next month) and haven't been able to follow XSF news. Is the memberbot still able to accet votes? Today should be the last day. If so, how does it work? This would be my first time.
[16:31:52] <SamWhited> SouL: Just send a message to the memberbot; it will tell you what to do!
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[16:32:49] <SouL> I did before asking but... Nothing seems to happpen. I'm going to try again
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[16:33:21] <dwd> SouL, you'll need it in your roster.
[16:33:31] <SouL> Ah ok, that's something new :D
[16:33:38] <mathieui> ping Guus ^
[16:33:42] <mathieui> you need to get added
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[16:34:00] <dwd> By Alex.
[16:34:37] <mathieui> right, my bad, sorry
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[16:35:59] <mathieui> zinid, is Konstantin Kozlov some kind of upgraded version of you that writes html emails?
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[16:38:59] <zinid> mathieui: I don't know him, but he is Russian, what did you expect?
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[16:43:53] <mathieui> not sure
[16:44:20] <lovetox> when i read the mail this perfectly captures my reaction
[16:44:33] <lovetox> https://share.hoerist.com/philipp/llg9Z3tyENAzldF8/0001tgqa.gif
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[16:48:36] <jonasw> mathieui, lol
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[16:49:41] <Guus> I have no control over memberbot, no. Alex is the only one that can, afaik.
[16:49:46] <mathieui> Guus, yeah, sorry
[16:50:04] <Guus> no worries
[16:50:28] <SouL> All fixed by now, thank you guys, like always :)
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[17:51:01] <Link Mauve> Speaking of the company information, is it possible to update an application if that information changed?
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[17:54:16] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: send a PR?
[17:54:26] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, no, it’s on the wiki.
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[17:54:56] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: are you talking of the council election or of membership?
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[17:55:02] <Link Mauve> I mean, process-wise, I doubt it would cause any harm, but it is a change to my application.
[17:55:09] <Link Mauve> Council in this case.
[17:55:26] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: maybe you just write "New employer as of 2017-11-XX: B (was: A)"
[17:55:39] <Ge0rG> it would be transparent and I'm pretty sure nobody would mind that.
[17:55:47] <Link Mauve> Ok.
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[17:57:00] <Link Mauve> There, fixed.
[17:57:08] <Zash> Maybe posting to members@ as well?
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[17:58:54] <Ge0rG> Ouch. The civil discourse on standards@ isn't.
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[18:01:23] <Link Mauve> I’m far behind on that. :x
[18:01:38] <Link Mauve> But the Capitole du Libre was a lot of fun!
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[18:39:14] <Guus> Good, Link Mauve :) T-Dose was kind of quiet, sadly. There were hardly more people than the ones doing the presentations and manning the stands :/
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[18:39:20] <Guus> I had some nice conversations none-the-less.
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[19:25:30] <daniel> Is there a rule requiring namespace bumbs for breaking changes in experimental XEP?
[19:26:10] <daniel> It should be up to the author right? Because council couldn't block it anyway
[19:26:38] <SamWhited> I think that's correct; probably best practice not to break things unless you're pretty sure there are no implementations though.
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[19:27:25] <Guus> well, if the protocol change breaks things anyway, why not bump the namespace to make it explicit?
[19:27:37] <Zash> Does the protocol change in such a way that clients following the old version will not be able to interop with those following the new version?
[19:27:42] <Guus> I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
[19:27:58] <daniel> Yeah I guess it depends on the definition of breaking...
[19:28:25] <Zash> "Why don't you just do it right from the start?"
[19:28:33] <Zash> Protocol and API design is hard
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[19:28:54] <daniel> I'm specifically talking about adding a new attribute to the chat marker xep and removing the received marker
[19:30:11] <daniel> > I've had "fun" working with the elements-vs-attributes change in http file upload...
In retrospect that was pretty stupid and unnecessary
[19:30:40] <Guus> wel live and learn :)
[19:30:48] <Guus> we*
[19:31:10] <Zash> live, yeah, learn, I'm not so sure
[19:31:22] <Zash> The last MAM bump comes to mind
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[19:38:49] <Ge0rG> If only we had some protocol experts that read proposals and suggest improvements
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[19:41:06] <Guus> Ge0rG: I am glad that you're stepping up to let us benefit from your wisdom, Ge0rG 😉
[19:41:30] <Ge0rG> Guus: vote Ge0rG!
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[19:42:02] <Guus> Ge0rG: the other candidates promised me cake.
[19:42:21] <Zash> The cake is a lie!
[19:42:40] <Ge0rG> Guus: I promise you harsh and merciless criticism! It's your choice
[19:42:41] <Guus> AND HE SCORES!
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[19:43:34] <Guus> Ge0rG: that's no added value, as you'll do that regardless of what we ask you to do. 😁
[19:44:41] <Ge0rG> I remember asking some questions about backward compatibility issues with some proposed protocol, some time last year, and then reading about how people ran into them half a year later... I had to focus all my will power to not scream "TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"... 🤣
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[19:48:54] <Zash> Ge0rG: Seems we must make our subject lines more clickbaity
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[19:49:58] <mathieui> "implementors hate him! find out about his one weird trick"
[19:51:06] <Guus> "He implemented OMEMO. You'll never guess what happened next!"
[19:51:38] <Guus> I shall use this new power in future mailings.
[19:52:24] <Ge0rG> Zash: in an attempt to stop me from reading the messages?
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[19:59:34] <Ge0rG> Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
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[20:01:25] <Ge0rG> Did I mention my love to race conditions already? If yaxim receives a MUC message from my own nickname, it marks the MUC as read and removes pending notifications. Now this also happens if this is a message I sent from this yaxim instance, and it clears notifications that happened between me sending the message and receiving the reflection.
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[20:32:34] <daniel> Ge0rG: will an active or typing message from another client (MSN) dismiss a notification ad well?
[20:32:50] <daniel> *as well
[20:32:52] <Flow> Ge0rG, which proposed protocol was this?
[20:34:14] <Ge0rG> daniel: not yet, only messages with a body do count. I'm not sure how to handle ephemeral ones.
[20:34:21] <Ge0rG> Flow: I'm not going to name names now.
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[20:38:10] <Zash> If you you start typing from another resource, doesn't that suggest that you probably read stuff?
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[20:39:07] <Ge0rG> Zash: Maybe. But maybe an "active" was just because you were switching tabs...
[20:39:39] <Zash> Hnngrr
[20:39:43] <daniel> Conversations treats active and typing as read the whole Conversations.
[20:39:56] <daniel> Currently only in 1:1. But soon in muc as well
[20:40:11] <Zash> Maybe I'm mindlessly switching tabs and typing things without ever reading anything?
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[20:41:21] <daniel> That's probably also the reason the chat marker xep uses 'displayed' instead of 'understood'
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[20:42:15] <Zash> How is that different from an 'active' chat state?
[20:42:34] <Daniel Wisnewski> Hi Folks, hope this is the right place, is there a SysOp available that could get me Wiki access?
[20:43:58] <daniel> Fundamentally there is no big difference I presume. Chat markers are maybe a bit more accurate because you can mark that you have displayed up to a specific message and this avoiding race conditions
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[20:45:03] <Zash> daniel: What if you don't send active until you've caught up/scrolled all the way down?
[20:46:24] <daniel> Zash, thats not my point. i was thinking a sends message to b. b receives messages. b sends active. a sends another message. a receives active
[20:47:33] <Zash> daniel: so you keep track of receipts too
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[20:49:41] <daniel> yes. all that can be achived if you carefully keep track of chat states, delivery receipts and trust that your contact keep the state updated
[20:50:23] <Zash> so having another protocol that does a bit of chat states and a bit of receipts feels awfully redundant to me
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[20:50:50] <daniel> i know that you feel that way
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[21:02:35] <jonasw> Daniel Wisnewski, Ge0rG is one
[21:02:45] <jonasw> Guus and Alex too
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[21:03:23] <Daniel Wisnewski> Ahh, looks like Guus is online/available. Thanks jonasw
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