XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2017-11-22


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  14. Bjc set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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  136. tux Congratulations to the new council members!
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  138. tux erm... And the new board members, too. :)
  139. tux (Somehow council elections were more prominent to me.)
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  143. daniel dwd, Kev: yes I'm pretty mich available all day. So 1630Z or what ever you suggested works for me
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  145. Kev Fab, ta.
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  147. Ge0rG I'm very hopeful regarding 1630Z as well. Might be a bit unresponsive while entering a train, but not absolutely unavailable.
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  149. Ge0rG I've added the Minutes link to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2017 and now I hope I'm not breaking the page-copy-paste process for next year's election.
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  153. Guus Who's formally going to apply the tie-breaking process for the remaining Board position? The secretary? Old Board? New Board?
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  160. Alex Guus: was quickly reading RFC 3797 last night, but havent really understood how this algo works, needs more reading ;-)
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  162. Ge0rG Alex: TL;DR: we need a pool of candidates (check) and an algorithm that will be applied on a future random-generating event (e.g. state lottery numbers)
  163. dwd Alex, Pick something happening soonish (like, say, Euromillions draw). Define how we get from that to an answer. We could just hash a string of the lottery result as 2-digit decimal ASCII numbers in ascending order. Then pull the least significant bit. Odd is Nÿco, even is Arc.
  164. Ge0rG dwd: should the ASCII string be terminated by a newline?
  165. dwd Ge0rG, I don't think it makes any (predictable) difference to the outcome, so we may as well for simplicity. I'd pick a strong hash algorithm just so we can claim that anyone fixing the Euromillions draw purely to pick one or other wouldn't know what to fix it to.
  166. dwd Although if they can fix the draw, please let me know so I can buy a ticket for once.
  167. Guus the RFC talks about combining various sources (eg: Euromillioins and the value of some stock exchange by the closing on a particular date in the future)
  168. Ge0rG dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery.
  169. jonasw dwd, :D
  170. dwd Guus, Yes, but that's to increase the entropy required, which is given in a formula - we only need a single bit as I understand things.
  171. Guus dwd, agreed. And as our pool size is fixed to '2', a simple odd/even determinator will work.
  172. Guus I'm primarily interested in making sure that someone is actively persuing a resolution at this point though :)
  173. Ge0rG RFC3739 §4 provides a string normalization algorithm.
  174. Alex I am not a gambler on only familiar with the german lottery, every weekend they pick 7 numbers out of a pool from 1 - 47 if I remember correctly
  175. jonasw i thought 6?
  176. jonasw ah, maybe seven, but the seventh has special meaning or something
  177. Alex jonasw: jonasw no idea, could be also 6 ;-)
  178. Guus we could use the least significant number in a stock exchange course?
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  181. Guus Alex, not to add to the workload, but perhaps you should put up memberbot for the membership application q4?
  182. Guus submission deadline was yesterday
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  184. Alex Guus: yes, will be available later toda
  185. Guus tx
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  193. Alex memberbot is up for the next voting period ;-)
  194. Ge0rG Looks like we have some Non-Reappliers?
  195. mathieui thanks Alex
  196. Alex Ge0rG: yes
  197. Alex I usually push them and remind several times by Email
  198. Ge0rG Right, the point of no return has been reached. There will be a Q5.
  199. Alex (Y)
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  217. dwd I've scribbled a suggestion for a concrete RFC 3739 implementation for us on the members@ list. It's dated for Friday, which seemed like a reasonable timeline. If there's something concretely wrong, please point it out. If you're happy with it, please say so. And please don't turn this into a bike shed.
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  222. lovetox why not just take the last number of the euro million draw, and say if its 1-6 candidate 1 wins, 7-12 candidate 2
  223. lovetox i dont get why there is hashing needed
  224. Alex dwd: you take the last byte E0 in your example, or just the last char 0?
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  231. Alex or do we just go from ricght to left until we find a "0" or "1" char?
  232. dwd Alex, Bit - 0 ends in a 0 bit. But loosely, odd numbers Nicolas, even numbers Arc.
  233. dwd lovetox, Makes it closer to RFC 3797, basically. It's certainly the most over-engineered coin-toss one could possibly wish for, I know.
  234. dwd Alex, So last characters 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, A, C, E would end in a 0-bit. The rest in a 1-bit.
  235. Alex ya
  236. Alex just did the Friday draw
  237. Alex data: 20.26.35.36.42./ hash: a33d86c56740f1291fde14dd6b89b371644a9023834ff71665bd79160dd90719
  238. Alex ending with a 1 bit, so would be Nicolas
  239. dwd Alex, I get the same result, indeed.
  240. Alex I second that proposal ;-)
  241. Alex was confused because you mentioned modulo in your email
  242. dwd Alex, Yeah... If you treat the hash as an enormous integer and modulo by the size of the list, it's the same thing. Just expressed in terms of the size of the list - which we know to be 2, so it's simple.
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  245. lovetox its true that you cant predict what the result on friday may be, but did you make sure both candidates have equal chance of winning?
  246. lovetox these are two different matters
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  249. Alex dwd: ya, next time when we habe a tie with 3 or more ;-)
  250. Guus Thanks Dave
  251. Guus looks fine
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  257. dwd It'd be good to get agreement from arc and nyco, mind.
  258. dwd lovetox, We assume that the lottery is completely random across its range, and that the hash output has a uniform distribution of bits. I believe the first is a reasonable assumption, and I believe that disproving the second would lead to a sudden move to SHA-3.
  259. Zash As long as it is independently verifiable
  260. Zash So, link to this lottery ?
  261. dwd Zash, In my email - but also https://www.euro-millions.com/results
  262. Zash And a clear description of the algorithm so anyone an run it
  263. dwd Zash, Also in my email.
  264. Zash "That is covered in my email" ?
  265. dwd Zash, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2017-November/008696.html <-- That email.
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  275. ralphm Thanks for picking this up dwd
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  281. dwd ralphm, No prob. I felt it'd be better coming from someone off Board anyway. And I dimly recall being partially responsible for the RFC 3797 rule anyway after last time. (Which, as I recall, also involved Nyco - though I genuinely can't remember).
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  283. dwd ralphm, Ah, no, I recall slightly wrong - the tie was between David Banes and Michael Rémond, but Nÿco was the "fourth" member, and we voted to drop the Board to the top 3, not 4, in order to maintain an odd number - which lost Nÿco. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2009-October/005230.html
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  304. Ge0rG dwd: you forgot to explicitly specify the ordering of the lottery results.
  305. dwd Ge0rG, Isn't this enough? "2) Each number will be arranged in ascending order, separated by dots, and terminated by "./". "
  306. Ge0rG dwd: oops, my bad, sorry!
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  308. dwd Ge0rG, Don't worry. I'd rather people pointed things out and were wrong than an error wasn't spotted until too late.
  309. Ge0rG dwd: still, reading the mail on my smartphone in a moving tram and immediately accusing you of negligence was impolite at best.
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  311. Ge0rG So my appointment ended early, which means I have the time for the council meeting. Now I just need to hope for good network coverage...
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  316. dwd Ge0rG, We're aiming for 16:30 UTC, so 17:30 CET I believe. So you've more than an hour to find a café with WiFi.
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  318. dwd Ge0rG, Also, you weren't impolite, and nor did you accuse me of negligence. You reviewed something important and thought you'd spotted something, which is very welcome.
  319. Ge0rG dwd: I'm boarding a train in 10 minutes, and it will have bad wifi. I can't influence the network quality except by pulling the emergency brake, but that will considerably delay my arrival at home 🤔
  320. dwd Ge0rG, We'll have to hope we did a good job with all those mobile extensions, then. :-)
  321. Ge0rG dwd: the largest blocker on the first trip today was poezio's broken reconnect code and that nasty MUC self ping IQ routing problem
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  323. dwd Ge0rG, It'd be nice to get MIX moving again.
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  325. zinid it would be nice to burn it with fire ;)
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  328. Ge0rG Indeed, I've recently made another approach at the XEP, and I've read almost half of it. Unfortunately, I wrote my notes as messages-to-self and they weren't logged because of infrastructure problems. They are now captured in the yaxim SQLite storage of a phone with empty battery.
  329. Steve Kille dwd: in what way??
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  331. Guus Steve Kille: make it a draft standard? :)
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  334. Kev I think it's a little bit raw for that.
  335. Guus I was referring to the intended direction.
  336. Steve Kille We want this direction
  337. Steve Kille Need some implementations
  338. Guus sorry, my semi-funny remark wasn't helpful.
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  341. ralphm As for the Board meeting. I look like this right now, and using any screen terribly hard:
  342. ralphm https://upload.ik.nu/upload/eb78d522-cde8-401f-acfe-045ede3645de/1YWY6o4HQRCx44MBO8aXHw.jpg
  343. mathieui ralphm, what happened? are you ok?
  344. ralphm Damaged my cornea somehow. Should be fine in a few days
  345. Guus ouch. Get well soon, Ralph
  346. Zash ralphm: get well! and don't overwork your other eye
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  348. ralphm bangs gavel
  349. ralphm Arrr
  350. ralphm Welcome Guus especially
  351. ralphm Who do we have
  352. Guus wait, you're an hour early?
  353. Ge0rG Council hasn't met yet
  354. ralphm Ah yes
  355. ralphm Adjourned then
  356. ralphm I missed the change of time
  357. Guus (Also, in an hour this building is closing down, so at best, I'll join the meeting via mobile from a parking lot somehwere)
  358. ralphm bangs gavel
  359. Kev May I suggest to Board that having a meeting before Board are selected is probably suboptimal, given the first order needs to be electing a Chair?
  360. uc , .,
  361. uc Oops Sorry
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  363. ralphm Well, hah, so first of all, there are 4 definitely elected board members and they can meet as usual. Second, I thought it would be important to affirm Dave's suggestion to resolve the tie.
  364. ralphm There is no strict rule for the first meeting to elect its chair.
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  367. Kev There isn't, but it seems odd not to.
  368. ralphm Bylaws say one year or until elected. I agree all is weird. But the method to resolve the tie has to be affirmed in some official capacity, no?
  369. Kev No.
  370. Kev At least, I don't believe so. I think we fixed this in the bylaws last time it happened.
  371. Guus Kev: agreed. I think it's primarily up to Alex, rather than board.
  372. Ge0rG > in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force. There is nothing about who is responsible for that process.
  373. dwd Kev, Yeah, the RFC 3797 mechanism is in the bylaws. The precise choices are not. The only affirmation I'd really like to see (beyond a few members giving it the nod) is for Alex (as Secretary), and Arc and Nÿco (as those affected).
  374. ralphm Ge0rG: in all matters unspecified, I believe the board or the executive committee can do this
  375. moparisthebest but is there a board until the tie is resolved? what if all the board election is a tie?
  376. ralphm And I agree with dwd otherwise
  377. ralphm There is currently a 4 person Board
  378. Zash This does seem like a thing done by those administrating The Meeting
  379. dwd moparisthebest, The former is unspecified. I think technically, we should pick the RFC 3797 process prior to the election. If the entire Board is a tie one year, the selection still operates by RFC 3797.
  380. moparisthebest yea but not if the rule is 'the board has to agree to the algorithm'
  381. dwd ralphm, I'm not entirely sure if there *is* a Board. There *is* a Chair, though.
  382. dwd moparisthebest, Good point, well made.
  383. Zash Clarification of the bylaws in order? :)
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  385. dwd Zash, Maybe. We could also declare that in the event of multiple interpretations of the rules, the Secretary's word is final.
  386. Ge0rG Who has the authority to determine whether a certain process is RFC3797 compliant?
  387. Zash dwd: Sure. And then put that into the bylaws.
  388. moparisthebest I think assuming lottery is random and not-riggable is fine, if you could rig it, why would you use that power to influence XSF board/council members?
  389. Ge0rG I think that adding the Secretary as the authority sounds reasonable, but what happens if somebody vetoes the RFC3797 compliance?
  390. ralphm dwd: I read 3.13 that all but the tied candidates for the last remaining position are simply elected
  391. dwd moparisthebest, Says exactly that in the RFC, actually. :-)
  392. Ge0rG moparisthebest: "<Ge0rG> dwd: let's just add a foot note that in case an XSF member wins a significant amount of money, we need to declare the result as void and choose another state-run lottery."
  393. dwd ralphm, I can go along with that, actually. Particularly as it talks about "Election of individuals", suggesting they're elected individually rather than as a Board entire.
  394. moparisthebest I'm not sure how much money would buy my board/council vote, but certainly a small % of a lottery win would do it :P
  395. ralphm And indeed, I'm still chair. I'm not sure if stpeter is still executive officer, though, given the one year term and his non-appointment last year.
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  397. ralphm (6.2)
  398. Zash Does the new board start directly after the election?
  399. Kev Zash: Yeah.
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  403. ralphm Actually, I am wrong. He was appointed, and indicated intent to resign
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  415. ralphm Ok, what now then?
  416. Martin *shrug*
  417. ralphm I suggested just just hold a quick meeting affirming dwd's method
  418. Martin Works for me
  419. ralphm And then arrange a new meeting after Friday's lottery
  420. Ge0rG IMHO, what dwd said is reasonable.
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  422. Kev I think nyco and arc agreeing to it would be optimal.
  423. ralphm Rights
  424. ralphm -s
  425. Kev And also that in future elections, we should probably state this method in advance :)
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  427. ralphm Alex are you here, too?
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  429. Ge0rG Kev: it might be hard to find an appropriate wording for the bylaws that doesn't open up to potential abuse.
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  431. ralphm Good luck cheating the lottery. If you manage that, by all means be a Board member
  432. Kev Ge0rG: I don't think it needs going in the bylaws - the bylaws say what to do.
  433. intosi ^ what ralphm said.
  434. Ge0rG Kev: but not how to do it
  435. intosi Stating it in th emeeting announcement should suffice.
  436. Kev As far as I'm concerned, Alex simply stating that this is the mechanism is sufficient.
  437. ralphm I agree with Kev
  438. ralphm Anyway
  439. Ge0rG Kev: unless somebody points out that it violates RFC 3797.
  440. ralphm bangs gavel
  441. ralphm 0. Welcome and agenda
  442. ralphm Who's here?
  443. Guus I am
  444. Guus kind of
  445. Martin I'm here
  446. Guus in process of getting kicked out of building.
  447. Martin 2.5 isn't really quorate
  448. ralphm No MattJ?
  449. Guus I'll respond eventually :)
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  452. MattJ Here
  453. MattJ Sorry
  454. ralphm Arc, nyco ?
  455. ralphm Ok all elected in attendance
  456. ralphm I have one agenda item: resolving the tie
  457. Guus That's up to Alex, isn't it?
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  459. ralphm 1. Resolving the tie for 5th director
  460. ralphm So, there has been a suggestion by dwd to resolve this according to the bylaws
  461. ralphm Additionally, there's some unclarity how the foundation selects this as accepted
  462. ralphm I motion that the Board affirms dwd's method, having seen no objections
  463. Martin +1
  464. ralphm Of course comments of Members are welcome
  465. Guus Although I'm perfectly fine with the suggested method, it's purpose is to safeguard Alex from accusations of bias. Its for him to agree on, I believe.
  466. Ge0rG I consider dwd's proposal very reasonable, especially the part about approval by the two affected nominees.
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  468. ralphm I'd be happy to make it conditional on that
  469. intosi Sounds good to me with that condition.
  470. Kev I think that we actually more or less *have* to leave this to Alex to agree to.
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  472. ralphm Kev: can you explain why?
  473. Kev Because either the bylaws are ok for him to do so, in which case yay, or the bylaws need changing before we can have a new Board, and that means voting and blah.
  474. ralphm To be clear, we *have* a new Board IMO
  475. Ge0rG IMO it is compliant to RFC3739, but in case of incompliance there should be a reasonable vetoing approach. I think that having a single person who defines that it is compliant is insufficient.
  476. ralphm Ge0rG: this is why I thought it useful to affirm by the Board. I like the suggestion of having the candidates needing to agree, and of course Alex will need to execute (and agree).
  477. ralphm I was hoping all involved to be here
  478. Guus Well, everyone appears to agree with Dave's method
  479. Ge0rG ralphm: right. What Kev said almost read to me like only Alex needs to affirm the method.
  480. Guus So perhaps Alex can just execute, assuming he agrees to the method too, and we don't have to worry about bother potential scenarios.
  481. ralphm Agreed
  482. intosi Kev might be right that his affirmation is all that is required. However, that does not mean that board and member affirming that's the way to go isn't a good thing.
  483. intosi Especially if it's affirmed by all parties directly involved.
  484. arc I'm fine with this
  485. Ge0rG intosi: I think this boils down to who is allowed to veto
  486. ralphm nyco?
  487. Guus I don't think we can sensibly do more now, with all other parties absent.
  488. dwd Ge0rG, Push comes to shove, the members can remove the whole of the Board and redo the election.
  489. intosi ^ I tried to say what dwd said, but didn't manage to find words even closely as eloquent.
  490. ralphm I think Board can also appoint the vacancy, so that's why I think it is sufficient for the Board to agree.
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  492. Guus ralphm: that'd be weird. We could fill the vacancy to force a vote in a particular direction that way.
  493. dwd ralphm, No, not also. We need to complete this first. I'm not even sure if, technically, either of Arc or Nyco can withdraw.
  494. ralphm (4.7)
  495. ralphm I'm happy to debate this all day, but I think we have enough to go on
  496. Guus Let's put this on hold until Alex responds.
  497. Alex I agree on Daves suggestion and I am happy to execute on it
  498. arc Honestly I think way more thought is being put into this than is needed. Let's see what the Friday lottery results in and move forward
  499. Guus Good.
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  501. Alex Dave said the next draw in Friday, so we should have the 5th borad member by the end of this week using the random election method
  502. ralphm Ok. If nyco does not object before the lottery executes, this is what we do.
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  505. ralphm dwd: can you write minutes?
  506. ralphm 2. Date of Next
  507. ralphm tbd on list
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  510. Guus What list?
  511. dwd ralphm, Yes, I'll knock something brief out.
  512. ralphm 3. Close
  513. ralphm Guus: board list
  514. Guus I'm not on board list yet, I believe.
  515. dwd Guus, board@, one assumes.
  516. ralphm Kev can add you
  517. ralphm Thanks all!
  518. Guus Thanks
  519. ralphm bangs gavel
  520. ralphm Arrrr
  521. Martin Cheerio all
  522. intosi Roaring Ralph.
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  527. ralphm (for those who missed it, scroll up for my picture)
  528. Kev Get well, Ralph.
  529. Guus Kev: mind adding me to board list?
  530. dwd ralphm, You know an eyepatch is meant to be black, right?
  531. ralphm Best they had
  532. Guus dwd: I'm missing a parrot.
  533. ralphm Also pretty sure most pirates had a white one first
  534. Guus Ok, I'm off. Car / parking lot / cold.
  535. Kev Mail me so I've got the mail address in my inbox.
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  539. Guus Kev: my Gmail please
  540. Guus See my application
  541. ralphm Oh, also congrats on council and dwd as chair
  542. ralphm (of council)
  543. dwd ralphm, Ta!
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  732. Ge0rG I think a single talk slot won't suffice any more at the upcoming Summit. Too many problems in https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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  734. mathieui oh, you updated it
  735. mathieui maybe we need to have the summit last one more day and give one full day to Ge0rG
  736. Ge0rG mathieui: my immediate reaction was to veto that proposal, but then I realized it is for the Board to decide, not for the Council.
  737. SamWhited I think (keeping in mind that I've only been to a handful of summits) that summits work best if you pick a specific issue and focus on that
  738. Ge0rG SamWhited: I could pick out Message Routing and fill a 30~60min slot with that probably.
  739. SamWhited That does seem like a big one
  740. Ge0rG SamWhited: it's also the most important one, IMO
  741. Ge0rG SamWhited: after that is tackled, a new client session type or some kind of MAM-sub can be applied to solve the remaining minor practical problems ;)
  742. Ge0rG I also actually wanted to create that message routing rules table for a long time now.
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