Wednesday, November 29, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:45:15] <Zash> Ge0rG: No, no newlines in attributes.
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[07:13:59] <jonasw> Zash, works for me:
>>> etree.fromstring("""<foo a=' '/>""").get("a")
'\n'
[07:16:12] <Zash> Didn't we go over whitespace rules recently?
[07:16:25] <jonasw> I don’t recall
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[07:19:38] <Zash> https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize
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[07:21:01] <jonasw> circumvents that I think
[07:21:08] <Zash> > =xml.parse[[<x y=' '/>]]
<x y='
'/>
[07:21:10] <Zash> Indeed
[07:21:13] <jonasw> > Note that if the unnormalized attribute value contains a character reference to a white space character other than space (#x20), the normalized value contains the referenced character itself (#xD, #xA or #x9). This contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains a white space character (not a reference), which is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value and also contrasts with the case where the unnormalized value contains an entity reference whose replacement text contains a white space character; being recursively processed, the white space character is replaced with a space character (#x20) in the normalized value.
[07:21:18] <Ge0rG> Zash: but in values you can have them.
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[07:21:27] <jonasw> replacing the character reference wins over normalizsation to space
[07:22:30] <Zash> > return xml.parse(tostring(xml.parse("<x y=' '/>")))
<x y=' '/>
[07:22:45] <jonasw> nice
[07:22:49] <jonasw> that should probably not happen
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[07:23:22] <Zash> Things broke when we escaped non-space whitespace.
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[08:37:32] <jonasw> which things?
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[09:00:34] <Zash> Things!
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[09:04:37] <Zash> Broke interop with M-Link IIRC
[09:05:00] <jonasw> even if only applied to attributes?
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[09:05:12] <Zash> I don't recall the details
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[09:06:37] <jonasw> aioxmpp escapes newlines etc. in attributes and haven’t had issues with that yet
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[09:10:45] <Flow> jonasw, which xml API does aioxmpp use (if any)?
[09:11:07] <jonasw> Flow, for generation, we actually write XML ourselves. for parsing, it’s xml.sax, which is backed by expat in CPython.
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[09:11:54] <jonasw> (the custom writer implements a SAX interface, but with some goodies which were hard to achieve with xml.sax, see <https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/xml.html#aioxmpp.xml.XMPPXMLGenerator>)
[09:12:14] <jonasw> mostly about encoding, namespaces (and prefixes) and strictness.
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[09:13:56] <Flow> jonasw, so does aioxmpp do the escaping or does it happen under the hood of the XML API?
[09:14:09] <jonasw> let me check, IIRC we invoke some xml.foo method
[09:14:36] <jonasw> yeah, xml.sax.saxutils.quoteattr -> libexpat on CPython
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[09:16:40] *Flow fetches the lastest aioxmpp git
[09:24:09] <Flow> wauza, 75% of aioxmpp's SLOCs are tests. repspect jonasw
[09:24:40] <jonasw> thank you :)
[09:24:45] <mathieui> yeah
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[11:37:16] <jonasw> edhelas, around?
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[11:49:26] <jonasw> Guus, is there a way you could give powers to (only) cancel (only) the xeps docker builds?
[11:49:32] <jonasw> (you, or any iteam member really)
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[11:53:47] <Guus> jonasw: unlikely
[11:53:50] <jonasw> pity
[11:53:59] <jonasw> too late now anyways
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[11:55:25] <Guus> the access control is not very fine-grained
[11:55:44] <Guus> read/write/admin on a repo level, that's all I can find.
[11:57:13] <jonasw> okay, nevermind then. I’ll just try to make sure that I only need one push then :)
[11:57:58] <Guus> jonasw: perhaps you can shorten the build duration somehow?
[11:58:12] <Guus> that'd reduce the impact
[11:58:15] <jonasw> the PDF build takes ages, I don’t think we can do anything about that
[11:58:32] <jonasw> if we had incremental builds, that’d be amazing too, but I think that’s not possible with dockerhub
[11:58:37] <jonasw> or maybe even docker in general
[12:00:55] <Guus> isn't the entire concept of docker hub that you base images on eachother?
[12:01:13] <jonasw> I don’t think that we can reasonably base on the previous build, can we?
[12:02:10] <Guus> I don't know
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[12:11:25] <Kev> Not reasonably, no.
[12:11:45] <Kev> And the idea is that you build up layers, yes, but not generally diffs between multiple versions of the same image.
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[12:13:57] <jonasw> hm, would write access allow me to break things which I can’t break anyways by pushing to the xeps repository?
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[12:17:11] <Guus> as you're an editor, I'm unsure if you shouldn't be allowed to do more damage anyways
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[12:17:28] <Guus> there's actually an 'editors' team there
[12:18:05] <Guus> Kev, any good reason why editors shouldn't be part of that editor team on docker hub?
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[12:18:44] <Guus> it now has Kev and Sam
[12:19:10] <Kev> Don't think so.
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[12:19:33] <Guus> jonasw - can you share your dockerhub accountname?
[12:19:41] <jonasw> xsfjonas
[12:20:06] <jonasw> sweet
[12:20:07] <Guus> hocus, pokus, pilatus, pas...
[12:20:56] <jonasw> thanks :)
[12:21:56] <Guus> no problem
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[13:41:45] <edhelas> jonasw pong
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[13:44:16] <jonasw> edhelas, I used "jt" as initials for your change, I hope that’s okay.
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[13:46:12] <edhelas> ah yeah, that was that :D
[13:46:28] <edhelas> is there a place where this jt alias is defined ?
[13:46:33] <jonasw> no
[13:46:36] <jonasw> unfortunately not
[13:46:46] <jonasw> I feel we should maybe move from "initials" to "handles"
[13:47:10] <jonasw> initials have low entropy, are prone to collisions, and aren’t used anywhere else in the community, making them hard to resolve
[13:47:11] <edhelas> I thought that people that participate will appears in Acknowledgements
[13:47:29] <jonasw> not unless you add yourself, I don’t think that’s the editors task. maybe.
[13:47:41] <jonasw> (if it is, my apologies)
[13:47:45] <edhelas> eheh, we should clarify that :p
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[13:48:08] <jonasw> I think the Ack seciton is pretty much at the authors discretion
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[13:49:23] <edhelas> okay
[13:50:06] <edhelas> maybe point all those initials to https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html with an anchor ?
[13:50:30] <edhelas> ah, this list can be cleaned up as well, which can break links… mhhh
[13:51:30] <jonasw> also, you don’t need to be a member to contribute to a XEP
[13:51:45] <edhelas> true
[13:52:06] <Ge0rG> edhelas: the members list is much more dynamic than the XEP history
[13:52:35] <jonasw> I’m looking forward to the fun of a name change.
[13:52:46] <edhelas> eheh
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[13:55:11] <edhelas> whatever, having pubsub#max_items will now allow us to move forward regarding the PEP support on the servers
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[13:55:51] <jonasw> :)
[13:55:59] <jonasw> sorry for the delay, I forgot this existed and council voted on it :(
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[16:31:53] <jonasw> I note that the log timestamps on http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2017-11-29#15:55:08 are off by a few minutes
[16:31:55] <jonasw> I think five
[16:31:57] <jonasw> cc @ iteam
[16:32:05] <jonasw> intosi, MattJ maybe?
[16:32:40] <MattJ> We'll need to figure out if there is a docker image for ntp, or make one
[16:32:51] <MattJ> (only joking)
[16:33:03] <MattJ> (I think)
[16:33:09] <jonasw> please be.
[16:33:45] <Ge0rG> jonasw: re 0392, "Treat the output as little endian and extract the last-significant 16 bits." - "least-significant" and I'm currently questioning whether it's a signed or an unsigned 16 bit number.
[16:33:46] <intosi> MattJ: right
[16:39:20] <intosi> Or we might've forgotten we actually care about time, and didn't bother installing ntpd ;)
[16:39:28] <intosi> Fixed
[16:39:44] <dwd> intosi, I'm glad you found the time.
[16:40:01] <intosi> dwd: fixed with minutes to spare.
[16:40:09] <jonasw> Ge0rG, unsigned
[16:40:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: or maybe it doesn't matter at all?
[16:40:49] <Ge0rG> unsigned shorts are a real pita in Java :>
[16:41:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it matters, I think
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[16:42:28] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "Divide the value by 65536" - shouldn't that be 65535?
[16:42:32] <jonasw> no
[16:42:35] <jonasw> we don’t want to reach 1.0
[16:42:38] <jonasw> because that’s equal to 0.0
[16:42:42] <jonasw> (in the circle)
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[16:42:51] <moparisthebest> openntpd seems to be a better choice for just keeping time correct, imho
[16:43:36] <Ge0rG> jonasw: great!
[16:43:43] <jonasw> (I got that wrong at first, Marcus pointed it out on standards@)
[16:43:48] <jonasw> *Marcel
[16:44:05] <jonasw> damn, I got that wrong in the acks
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[16:45:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, is yaxim about to get XEP-0392 support? :)
[16:45:14] <jonasw> if so, make it so that conversations can steal it :)
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[16:46:15] <MattJ> Conversations stealing code from Yaxim, that'll be the day
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[16:48:18] <Zash> -xep 392
[16:48:19] <Bunneh> Zash: Consistent Color Generation (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-11-29)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0392.html
[16:49:40] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm working on 0392, yes.
[16:49:55] <edhelas> wow this XEP
[16:50:12] <mathieui> edhelas, you haven’t implemented it yet?? even poezio has it
[16:50:18] <jonasw> *cough*
[16:50:50] <MattJ> I think it's a well-produced XEP, but really seems like a lot of fuss over something so trivial
[16:50:54] <edhelas> mathieui wan't to compare sizes of our implemented XEP list ?
[16:51:04] <jonasw> MattJ, I’m sorry :-)
[16:51:04] <mathieui> edhelas, no thanks :D
[16:51:09] <MattJ> I really don't care that much what colours people show up as
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[16:51:20] <MattJ> Seems many people do...
[16:51:31] <edhelas> mathieui SIMS implemented ? :-°
[16:51:34] <Ge0rG> MattJ: the important thing is not that all clients show the same color but rather that the palette has good readability
[16:51:37] <jonasw> the palette stuff blew it ub much
[16:51:39] <jonasw> the palette stuff blew it up much
[16:51:59] <jonasw> (with "palette stuff" I mean mapping to discrete color palettes, like terminal clients do)
[16:52:16] <Zash> Seems weird to me to specify as a protocol tho.
[16:53:01] <jonasw> I wonder if it would’ve been more suited for Informational track, but i don’t care :)
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[16:53:16] <jonasw> (given that we’d want to have this under rather strict change control once it becomes widespread, Standards Track is probably sane)
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[16:53:46] <edhelas> meanwhile in Movim https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/app/helpers/StringHelper.php#L312 :D
[16:54:09] <edhelas> the thing is that I'm following the default colors of Material design
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[16:54:25] <edhelas> so I'm wondering how this will fit with this XEP
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[16:54:35] <jonasw> edhelas, the XEP allows you to use a palette
[16:54:40] <jonasw> there’s a large section on that
[16:54:55] <Ge0rG> the Android avatar palette has eight predefined colors or something
[16:54:55] <jonasw> but I would suggest to not do that and instead use the colors generated by the XEP.
[16:56:06] <daniel> jonasw, using a palette won't distribute the colors equaly on that palette though, or will it?
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[16:56:14] <SamWhited> I think this XEP was very well thought out and written, but I can't see it being widely used. It's just too much complexity, and too large to implement easily when instead I could just do what edhelas has
[16:56:29] <jonasw> daniel, it will do that only if the palette is itself equally distributed
[16:57:30] <daniel> yes... i'm afraid it won't work for me then. i mean i'll happily give it a try if Ge0rG writes the code
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[16:57:44] <daniel> but i really want to keep my color palette
[16:58:08] <jonasw> SamWhited, the gist of it is pretty much angle = sha1(text)[:2] / 65536 * 2π; cr = sin(angle); cb = cos(angle); and three formulas to convert cr and cb to rgb. maybe it’d help if there was a single block at the beginning which lists that and save the details for later below?
[16:58:13] <jonasw> daniel, why though?
[16:58:30] <daniel> jonasw, why i want to keep my palette?
[16:58:36] <jonasw> yes
[16:58:45] <daniel> because i want them to fit into the platform
[16:58:56] <intosi> daniel: +1 :)
[16:59:14] <edhelas> daniel maybe we can have the same palette, we are both using Material Design colors :)
[16:59:15] <jonasw> daniel, I *assume* that most such palettes are rather equally distributed
[16:59:28] <jonasw> if you have the rgb values for them, I’d be happy to check that
[16:59:46] *edhelas will introduce XEP-XXXX Material Design color palette
[16:59:52] <SamWhited> jonasw: that might help, but it will still be a very long complicated XEP, and if I can implement it from just that section why is the rest needed?
[17:00:18] <daniel> jonasw, https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/master/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/utils/UIHelper.java#L35
[17:00:36] <Guus> Potential board meeting time. Who is here?
[17:00:36] <jonasw> SamWhited, special cases (like if you’re restricted to a palette), precision of the description to avoid ambiguities, and color vision deficiency correction
[17:00:41] <jonasw> daniel, thanks
[17:01:28] <jonasw> daniel, is that ARGB or ABGR?
[17:01:35] <daniel> argb
[17:01:41] <jonasw> I could’ve guessed.
[17:01:52] <dwd> Argh, maybe.
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[17:03:54] <Guus> Nyco, Ralphm, MattJ, Martin - does board meet now?
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[17:04:28] <MattJ> I was guessing not, because you said you couldn't make it
[17:04:57] <Martin> I'm here, but wasn't sure if the mailing list thread flattened it
[17:05:13] <Guus> Wednesdays are very inconvenient. Parking lots, laptops in cars, no heating, and roaming is typically invovled
[17:05:26] <Guus> as we didn't agree on a new time, I thought I'd check in now.
[17:07:12] <Guus> fwiw, 2:30pm-3:00pm GMT every Thursday works for me - as suggested on the mailing list - but there's no point in agreeing between the three of us, without Ralphm and Nyco.
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[17:07:29] <MattJ> Indeed
[17:07:41] <ralphm> I am good with that
[17:07:55] <MattJ> nyco, around?
[17:08:57] <Guus> well, we have quorum now - shall we start a meeting now? We can finalize the scheduling once nyco pitches in.
[17:09:18] <MattJ> wfm
[17:09:53] <Guus> ralph, do you want to take the lead? You make for a comfortable chair :)
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[17:11:15] <Guus> ralphm ^ ?
[17:11:50] *Guus bangs a gavel
[17:12:05] <ralphm> Well, I thought it would be very weird to have a meeting without an agreed time
[17:12:18] *Guus unbangs a gavel
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[17:12:25] <ralphm> First order of business is that we choose a chair and I think we should all be there
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[17:13:25] <Guus> I'm perfectly happy to continue with an acting chair for this meeting.
[17:13:45] <Guus> I do agree that choosing a chair should involve all of us
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[17:14:40] <ralphm> No need for an acting chair, I am still a proper one
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[17:16:05] <ralphm> So, hoping that nyco will also agree upon the time, let's go for tomorrow 14:30 UTC
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[17:17:27] *Guus shrugs.
[17:17:30] <Martin> Sounds good to me
[17:17:36] <Guus> works for me
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[17:20:29] <Guus> I think all of us are on the same DST switchover date, correct? if so, it'd make sense to anchor it to London time - to prevent a sudden shift twice a year?
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[17:20:53] <Guus> as UTC is London time now, there's no immediate difference.
[17:21:56] <MattJ> Yes, sensible
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[17:24:47] <ralphm> I'd be very happy to anchor to London
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[18:54:05] <peter> hey, today is my jabiversary: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/1999-November/060711.html :-)
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[18:55:20] <Ge0rG> peter: congratulations! :)
[18:56:46] <peter> heh
[18:56:52] <jonasw> peter, nice, in two years we can celebrate your 20th :-)
[18:57:30] <peter> this is why they call me "Old Man Jabber" ;-)
[18:58:18] <SamWhited> Oh nice! Congrats indeed!
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[19:10:42] <SouL> Wow, suuuper nice, happy jabiversary :D
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[20:00:58] <dwd> In case anyone still thought the XSF was the weirdest standards org, the IETF has pressed its claim by publishing 18 versions of the DTLS spec within half an hour.
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[20:05:48] <fippo> dwd: how does that compare to BUNDLE with its 42 revisions?
[20:05:56] <fippo> granted, over the last five or six years
[20:07:27] <intosi> peter: congrats, you're now allowed to vote ;)
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[20:10:28] <moparisthebest> what, why (@18 DTLS versions)
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[20:13:39] <zinid> Who cares what IETF is doing, everyone is doing what Google does, what's good for Google bussiness
[20:13:58] <zinid> </rant>
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[20:41:30] <jjrh> Google employees participate in IETF standards. :P
[20:42:26] <fippo> google employees seem to ignore MUSTs in RFCs written by other google employees. Seems to be a big company.
[20:42:38] <fippo> dwd: ekr's response is the best...
[20:43:24] <Zash> dwd: wat, link?
[20:43:51] <fippo> zash: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg105575.html
[20:44:10] <fippo> zash: ietf-discuss is like hackernews for... old ppl?
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[20:47:30] <jjrh> I miss the days when slashdot actually had good news and comments that were insightful
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[21:08:40] <peter> If Brian Carpenter were paying attention to the TLS WG list, he would have known. (Although I still don't understand why ekr felt the need to do that.)
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[23:07:26] *** Valerian has joined the room
[23:07:57] *** Guus has left the room
[23:08:56] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:08:57] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:08:58] *** Kev has left the room
[23:10:02] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:10:03] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:11:32] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:11:32] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:12:09] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:12:09] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:14:47] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:16:03] *** daniel has left the room
[23:20:52] *** buzzdeebuzz has joined the room
[23:21:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:28:22] *** sezuan has left the room
[23:29:07] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:29:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:31:40] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:31:41] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:33:50] *** sonny shows as "online"
[23:33:55] *** arc has left the room
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[23:34:40] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[23:35:04] *** arc has left the room
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[23:35:18] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:35:54] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:35:54] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:37:29] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:37:29] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:43:59] *** sonny shows as "away"
[23:46:34] *** sonny shows as "online"
[23:51:09] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:51:09] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:52:22] *** uc has joined the room
[23:55:40] *** uc shows as "online"
[23:58:36] *** la|r|ma has left the room