Tuesday, December 05, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
December
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
        1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:04:20] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[00:04:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[00:05:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:06:01] *** lumi has left the room
[00:06:10] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:06:12] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:09:03] *** Guus has left the room
[00:09:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:11:43] *** Kev has left the room
[00:21:14] *** Guus has left the room
[00:30:27] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:30:30] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:38:02] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[00:38:20] *** arc has left the room
[00:38:21] *** arc has joined the room
[00:44:49] *** arc has left the room
[00:44:50] *** arc has joined the room
[00:48:12] *** matlag has joined the room
[00:48:25] *** goffi has left the room
[01:00:59] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:01:37] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:05:14] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:06:20] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:13:24] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[01:13:29] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[01:14:35] *** sonny has left the room
[01:14:46] *** sonny has joined the room
[01:16:59] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[01:17:05] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[01:23:56] *** Tobias has joined the room
[01:32:57] *** lskdjf has left the room
[01:32:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[01:38:13] *** Tobias has left the room
[01:43:30] *** goffi has joined the room
[01:54:20] *** sonny shows as "online"
[01:54:20] *** sonny shows as "online"
[02:02:50] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[02:06:36] *** lskdjf has left the room
[02:06:45] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[02:07:57] *** sonny has left the room
[02:08:06] *** sonny shows as "online"
[02:08:55] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[02:08:57] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[02:23:47] *** goffi has left the room
[02:33:09] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[02:48:56] *** efrit has joined the room
[02:56:48] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[03:28:56] *** efrit has left the room
[03:35:36] *** jere has left the room
[03:35:44] *** jere has joined the room
[03:40:26] *** jere has left the room
[03:40:33] *** jere has joined the room
[03:44:58] *** Tobias has joined the room
[03:54:36] *** sonny shows as "online"
[04:10:55] *** jere has left the room
[04:13:54] *** jere has joined the room
[04:15:20] *** uc has joined the room
[05:05:07] *** Tobias has joined the room
[05:10:18] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[05:22:12] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:22:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:22:30] *** Lance has joined the room
[05:22:30] *** Lance shows as "online"
[05:22:50] *** Lance has left the room
[05:23:28] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[05:24:26] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[05:25:13] *** uc has joined the room
[05:34:50] *** McKael shows as "online"
[05:35:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:36:11] *** zinid has joined the room
[05:36:21] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:41:09] *** blabla has left the room
[05:42:39] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[05:47:05] *** marc has joined the room
[05:49:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:52:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:52:37] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[05:54:52] *** sonny shows as "online"
[05:54:54] *** sonny shows as "online"
[05:58:15] *** alacer has joined the room
[06:00:49] *** alacer has left the room
[06:02:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:03:09] *** alacer has joined the room
[06:03:13] *** alacer has left the room
[06:04:17] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:17:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:18:46] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:20:48] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:20:49] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:21:39] *** zinid has left the room
[06:28:20] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:35:19] *** Tobias has left the room
[06:35:28] *** Tobias has joined the room
[06:37:33] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:38:11] *** zinid has joined the room
[06:38:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:43:32] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:44:09] *** zinid shows as "online"
[06:45:11] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:45:20] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:46:23] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:46:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[06:47:07] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:48:07] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:51:12] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:53:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:54:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:55:17] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:55:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[06:56:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[06:56:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:56:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[06:59:24] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:01:14] *** Guus has left the room
[07:01:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:03:52] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:05:32] *** Tobias has joined the room
[07:05:43] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:08:57] *** Guus has left the room
[07:08:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:09:24] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:10:51] *** waqas has left the room
[07:16:40] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:21:14] *** Guus has left the room
[07:29:40] *** zinid has left the room
[07:30:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:34:01] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[07:46:58] *** sonny has left the room
[07:47:07] *** sonny has joined the room
[07:47:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:48:03] *** intosi has joined the room
[07:48:18] *** intosi shows as "online"
[07:48:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
[07:49:40] *** Kev has joined the room
[07:49:42] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:51:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:51:46] *** marc shows as "online"
[07:52:19] <marc> Ge0rG, Did you take a look at the XEP?
[07:53:05] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:53:40] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:53:50] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:55:03] *** sonny shows as "online"
[07:55:05] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:00:09] *** sonny has left the room
[08:00:28] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:00:33] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:01:25] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[08:02:56] *** sonny has left the room
[08:03:00] *** Zash has left the room
[08:03:06] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:05:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:05:51] *** arc has left the room
[08:05:52] *** arc has joined the room
[08:07:49] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:08:30] *** zinid shows as "online"
[08:09:17] *** Zash has joined the room
[08:11:41] *** sonny has left the room
[08:11:43] *** sonny has joined the room
[08:14:43] *** marc has left the room
[08:14:59] *** marc shows as "online"
[08:16:09] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:19:20] *** stefandxm has left the room
[08:20:34] *** Zash shows as "online"
[08:20:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
[08:23:27] <Ge0rG> marc: you mean at the examples? 😜 yes, I did
[08:23:51] <marc> Ge0rG, yes the examples ;) Any objections so far? :P
[08:23:53] *** arc has left the room
[08:23:54] *** arc has joined the room
[08:24:12] *** daniel has left the room
[08:24:20] *** daniel has joined the room
[08:24:25] *** Martin has joined the room
[08:24:33] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:24:53] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:25:10] <Ge0rG> marc: I still think that the ad-hoc command has two parameters too many. Also not sure about just adding another element to the IBR request
[08:25:41] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[08:26:10] *** goffi has joined the room
[08:26:37] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:26:37] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:26:44] <marc> Ge0rG, these two elements are still optional ;)
[08:26:58] <marc> Ge0rG, do you have an other idea for IBR?
[08:28:01] <Ge0rG> marc: I'm not sure means I don't know if this can be made legal by the XEP. The alternative would be to use full fledged Data Forms
[08:29:25] *** stefandxm has left the room
[08:29:39] <Ge0rG> marc: and it needs some way to integrate with PARS, so that users who already have an account will be accounted for as well
[08:29:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:29:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:30:28] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:30:58] <marc> Ge0rG, what do you mean? can you give me an exmaple?
[08:31:18] *** arc has left the room
[08:31:19] *** arc has joined the room
[08:32:34] *** daniel has left the room
[08:32:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:33:47] *** daniel has left the room
[08:33:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:34:40] <intosi> Yay. Spim from @yax.im.
[08:37:26] *** ralphm has joined the room
[08:41:35] <goffi> Hi, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15850597
[08:41:42] <goffi> some votes may help ;)
[08:42:14] <Tobias> intosi, also got it and put the domain on my blocklist. but maybe Ge0rG can get his act together and prevent these things
[08:42:18] <SouL> Of course! yes goffi :D
[08:42:29] <edhelas> upvoted :p
[08:42:59] <Zash> Ge0rG: How's your acting?
[08:43:04] <Flow> jonasw, no ProtoXEP annoucement for ISR 0.0.5? I also don't see a council trello card for it
[08:44:12] <Flow> goffi, upvoted, also read the blog post, sounds great!
[08:44:13] *** zinid has left the room
[08:45:12] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:46:14] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:46:23] <Tobias> goffi, why does the vidoe have white bars top and bottom?
[08:46:52] <goffi> Tobias: because it's old blog renderer and the CSS is bad
[08:46:58] <jonasw> Flow, no
[08:47:05] <jonasw> I don’t do that normally, I thought your mail was announcement enough
[08:47:09] <jonasw> maybe CC council@ next time
[08:47:11] <goffi> but can't use the new one yet (which is responsive), there is not yet atom feed or pagination.
[08:47:18] <edhelas> you shouldn't enforce width and height for the video size
[08:47:32] <jonasw> (ProtoXEP updates are out-of-process, so there’s no tooling for this)
[08:48:19] <Flow> jonasw, ok, i've a feeling that people will refuse to deal with the submission if it's not officially announced. Would you be so kind and add a card to council's trello?
[08:48:39] <jonasw> I doubt that people will refuse that
[08:48:46] <jonasw> I am in a meeting right now
[08:48:50] <Flow> hope so
[08:48:59] <jonasw> remind me in a few hours, then I’ll do that
[08:49:27] <Ge0rG> Tobias: seriously? You've blocked yax.im?
[08:49:27] *** sonny shows as "away"
[08:49:46] <Tobias> Ge0rG, if domains send spam my way, i block them :)
[08:49:52] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:49:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:50:08] *** nyco has left the room
[08:50:17] *** nyco has joined the room
[08:50:19] <jonasw> Tobias, maybe first contact the admin?
[08:50:22] <jonasw> that’s kinda extreme
[08:50:30] <Tobias> it's even the less harsh approach, compared to others who whitelist domains they do s2s with :)
[08:50:33] <jonasw> especially if the admin is part of the XMPP core-ish community
[08:50:33] *** sonny shows as "online"
[08:50:39] <Tobias> jonasw, well...i can unblock them
[08:50:44] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:50:44] <Tobias> even did so after a week
[08:50:48] *** zinid has left the room
[08:51:50] <Ge0rG> Tobias: that makes me very sad, still
[08:52:11] <Tobias> it also makes me very sad that i received spam from your domain
[08:52:38] *** zinid has joined the room
[08:52:58] <Ge0rG> Tobias: so what would be your proposed solution? Shut down all public servers?
[08:53:23] *** ralphm has joined the room
[08:53:24] <Tobias> no...apply some limitations to new accounts on public servers
[08:53:35] <Guus> Oh, I'm with Tobias: I've blocked various domains that delivered nothing to mine, except spam.
[08:53:35] *** daniel has left the room
[08:53:44] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:53:48] <Tobias> and monitor behaviour of new accounts on public servers
[08:54:02] <Tobias> i have more than 50 domains on my block list
[08:54:16] <Guus> oh, i ~10 :)
[08:54:18] <Ge0rG> Tobias: I'm doing the following:
- limit IBR per IP
- monitor large numbers of outgoing messages and block accounts
- limit the number of stanzas a client can send
- watch my logs
- react to abuse reports as fast as I can
[08:54:27] <Ge0rG> Tobias: and you didn't even report it to me.
[08:54:37] <Tobias> Ge0rG, will do the next time, I promise
[08:55:13] <Ge0rG> Tobias: you still can report the message content that you received :P
[08:55:44] *SouL says: come on, cheer up everybody yay :)
[08:55:56] <Ge0rG> Tobias: I know how annoying spam is, and it really really really makes me sad to learn about it in such a public-shaming way.
[08:56:27] <edhelas> Tobias Guus is it possible to get thoses blacklists ?
[08:56:53] *** daniel has left the room
[08:57:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:59:05] <Tobias> edhelas, yes
[08:59:09] <Ge0rG> Tobias: so what's the spam message you received, anyway? I'd like to improve my outbound filters.
[08:59:24] <Tobias> Ge0rG, just going through my logs to find it
[08:59:31] <Ge0rG> Tobias: and did you receive it from digital.advert307@yax.im or a different JID?
[09:01:28] <Guus> edhelas, I can look them up for you. Note that because _my_ users aren't appear to be talking to valid accounts on those domains, yours might. I'm not sure if a permanent blacklisting is approriate.
[09:01:37] *** daniel has left the room
[09:01:48] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:03:43] <Zash> I also block on first offence. I am evil.
[09:05:54] <Ge0rG> Tobias: so I've just deleted eight spammer accounts that connected through the same IP address. If you had told me the JID or the content of the message you received (did you receive one at all?), I possibly could have deleted more.
[09:06:45] <Tobias> Ge0rG, does your server ping every s2s connection every minute? even if you don't send other messages over that connection for a longer time?
[09:07:41] <Ge0rG> Tobias: it does ping other servers, but I'm not sure if it is actually set to one minute. Why?
[09:07:50] <Zash> wc -l blocklist/zash.dat
256 blocklist/zash.dat
[09:07:53] <Zash> Eeeeeeeevil
[09:07:54] <Tobias> just looking at my log
[09:08:59] <Ge0rG> Zash: how often will prosody 0.10 send whitespace via s2a?
[09:09:02] <Ge0rG> Zash: how often will prosody 0.10 send whitespace via s2s?
[09:09:23] <Zash> Ge0rG: We never got around to adjusting the timeout, so after 6h of silence.
[09:09:43] <Ge0rG> mod_pinger should only ping c2s, from reading the source code.
[09:12:01] <jonasw> dwd, I added ProtoXEP ISR to the proposed agendums [sic]
[09:12:06] <jonasw> (cc @ Flow)
[09:13:02] *** sonny has left the room
[09:13:03] *** daniel has left the room
[09:13:06] *** sonny shows as "online"
[09:13:10] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:13:53] <Ge0rG> Zash: why is it sending two whitespaces per minute on an s2sin then? And also one ping per minute on s2sout?
[09:14:22] *** sonny has left the room
[09:14:24] *** sonny shows as "online"
[09:14:45] <Zash> Ge0rG: Are you using 3rd party plugins that I have no idea about what they are doing?
[09:15:05] <Ge0rG> Zash: if by "3rd party" you mean "from prosody-modules", then yes.
[09:15:28] <Zash> Yes, I do
[09:17:14] <Ge0rG> Zash: where is the code that sends the once-in-6hr whitespace?
[09:18:34] <Zash> Ge0rG: In mod_s2s, when the network backend invokes the "read timeout" handler.
[09:18:53] <Zash> Have you perhaps changed the read timeout setting?
[09:19:55] <Ge0rG> Zash: I have. `network_settings.read_timeout = 840` - which is NOT 60 seconds.
[09:20:10] <Ge0rG> Zash: also why should it send twice on an s2sin link?
[09:20:30] <Zash> Ge0rG: Duno. Bug?
[09:20:37] <Ge0rG> just to pick a random s2s:
Dec 05 10:18:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug sending:
Dec 05 10:18:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug sending:
Dec 05 10:18:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug Received[s2sin]: <iq id='keepalive' type='result' to='yax.im' from='tengu.chat'>
Dec 05 10:19:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug sending:
Dec 05 10:19:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug sending:
Dec 05 10:19:52 s2sin98ca6d0 debug Received[s2sin]: <iq id='keepalive' type='result' to='yax.im' from='tengu.chat'>
[09:21:37] <Zash> Ge0rG: Weird. Libevent?
[09:22:07] *** daniel has left the room
[09:22:16] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:23:03] <Ge0rG> Tobias: thanks for pointing out the bug. Were you able to find anything in your logs regarding that spammer you encountered?
[09:23:45] <Tobias> not yet...will tell you in about half an hour
[09:28:09] *** daniel has left the room
[09:28:16] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:31:56] <jonasw> zinid, if you’re doing strict schema validation, how do you handle the lax order requirements of XMPP?
[09:32:05] <jonasw> which cannot really be reflected in schemas?
[09:32:14] <jonasw> (well, somebody did the work to reflect that in XEP-0030, but ...)
[09:32:32] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[09:33:26] *** Bunneh has left the room
[09:33:26] *** Bunneh has joined the room
[09:33:26] *** Bunneh shows as "online"
[09:34:02] <Ge0rG> Sigh. Blocking messages from strangers is really annoying. I get a subscription request from a JID I don't recognize and I can't even ask them why they contact me without exposing my presence.
[09:34:30] *** daniel has left the room
[09:34:40] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:34:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:34:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:37:00] *** daniel has left the room
[09:37:11] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:40:25] <Ge0rG> Oh, `admin@xmpp.wiki` is not actually an admin.
[09:41:08] *** daniel has left the room
[09:41:11] <SouL> Does .wiki domain exist?
[09:41:14] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:41:23] <Zash> Looks like one of chatmes domains?
[09:41:26] <SouL> Didn't know that
[09:41:31] <Ge0rG> Zash: yes, it is.
[09:41:48] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[09:41:53] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[09:43:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:43:45] <mathieui> mod_block_registrations should also be required for IBR servers…
[09:43:57] <mathieui> with admin, operator, and root banned
[09:46:00] <Ge0rG> mathieui: right, that too.
[09:46:30] <Ge0rG> block_registrations_users = {
"abuse", "admin", "administrator", "hostmaster", "info", "news",
"noc", "owner", "postmaster", "register", "registration", "root",
"security", "service", "signup", "support", "sysadmin", "sysop",
"system", "test", "trouble", "webmaster", "www", "xmpp",
}
[09:46:38] <Ge0rG> based on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2142 and http://blog.postbit.com/reserved-username-list.html
[09:47:07] <Ge0rG> added `operator` now.
[09:48:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:50:43] <Ge0rG> Zash: ^
[09:52:08] <Zash> Ew, spaces for indentation!
[09:52:22] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[09:52:39] <Ge0rG> Zash: what? I'm using tabs.
[09:53:23] <Zash> The module
[09:53:33] <SouL> wtf who uses tabs for indentation
[09:53:39] <ralphm> This
[09:54:09] <Zash> No, TABS! Holy war!
[09:54:13] <mathieui> oh no
[09:54:19] <mathieui> maybe we should talk about tea instead
[09:54:27] <Zash> No, Coffee! Holy war!
[09:54:39] <mathieui> nobody expects the xmpp inquisition
[09:55:48] *** sonny has left the room
[09:58:03] <Ge0rG> mathieui: nobody expects the whitespace inquisition?
[09:58:52] <Tobias> Ge0rG, https://q.zash.se/a6db0f2a6dcf.txt
[10:00:57] <Ge0rG> Tobias: that's been almost two weeks ago!?
[10:01:22] <Tobias> yes?
[10:01:38] <Ge0rG> Tobias: you didn't know that I'm the admin of yax.im?
[10:01:46] <Tobias> i did
[10:02:09] <Tobias> like I said, next time I'll report it to you before blocking your domain
[10:02:13] <Ge0rG> Tobias: sorry, but I'm speechless.
[10:02:37] <Tobias> is the account already deleted?
[10:02:39] <Ge0rG> BTW, there is a dozen of accounts that used the same IP address.
[10:03:24] <Ge0rG> Tobias: no. I'm not even sure why the message went out at all. It should be blocked for multiple reasons.
[10:04:02] <Tobias> like high percentage of YELLING?
[10:05:08] <Ge0rG> Tobias: I'm not measuring that. But multi-line messages to non-subscribers should be blocked.
[10:05:18] <Holger> jonasw: What order requirement can't be reflected?
[10:05:56] *** sonny has left the room
[10:06:15] <Zash> Ge0rG: does `prosodyctl mod_firewall test` work?
[10:06:16] <Holger> jonasw: Either way ejabberd is using it's own schema format, not XSD.
[10:06:17] *** daniel has left the room
[10:06:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:48] <Ge0rG> Zash: I remember now. my `bodycheck` rule had to be disabled for outgoing messages because IN_ROSTER doesn't work in `::preroute`
[10:07:26] <Zash> Say what
[10:07:41] *** sonny has joined the room
[10:07:56] <zinid> jonasw, we don't use XSD, they are shit
[10:07:57] <Ge0rG> Zash: what does IN_ROSTER return when applied in the ::preroute chain?
[10:09:19] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[10:10:41] <Zash> Ge0rG: Oh right, because it refers to the receivers roster, which wouldn't be available for a remote user
[10:11:36] <Ge0rG> Zash: so how do I find out if the local sender is subscribed to the remote receiver?
[10:11:37] <zinid> jonasw, it has erlangish format, here it is: https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/specs/xmpp_codec.spec
[10:11:50] <Zash> Ge0rG: And the sender can just add whatever they want to their roster, so you'd need the thing, yes, subscription check
[10:12:02] <Ge0rG> SUBSCRIBED

Tests whether the recipient is subscribed to the sender, ie will receive presence updates from them.

Note that this does work, regardless of direction and which chain is used, since both the sender and the recipient will have mirrored roster entries.

[10:12:02] <Zash> Ge0rG: SUBSCRIBED?
[10:12:05] <Zash> Right
[10:12:09] <Ge0rG> is that what I need? Will it work as expected?
[10:12:25] <Zash> Ge0rG: Unless it has the same bug...
[10:12:55] <Ge0rG> Zash: actually I need the opposite - whether the sender is subscribed to the receiver.
[10:13:13] <Zash> Ge0rG: Why?
[10:13:16] <Ge0rG> Whoever invented asymmetric presence subscription.
[10:13:32] <Ge0rG> Zash: because a spammer could pre-approve all receivers?
[10:13:48] <Zash> Ge0rG: But that's not implemented! :D
[10:15:56] <Ge0rG> Zash: ah, it looks like `rostermanager.is_contact_subscribed` will actually check both directions.
[10:19:21] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[10:21:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:22:54] *** Alex has joined the room
[10:26:08] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:29:07] *** daniel has left the room
[10:29:11] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:30:09] <Ge0rG> Zash: thanks very much.
[10:30:48] *** McKael shows as "online"
[10:30:56] <Ge0rG> So now I can apply a `JUMP_CHAIN=user/bodycheck` to outgoing messages as well. But how can I add another action to inform the admin about local users spamming?
[10:31:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:31:26] <Ge0rG> JUMP_CHAIN will BOUNCE when spam was found.
[10:35:26] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[10:36:08] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:39:10] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[10:40:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:40:32] *** sonny shows as "online"
[10:40:32] *** sonny shows as "online"
[10:40:49] *** Alex has left the room
[10:41:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:43:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:46:02] <Ge0rG> Tobias: deleted the twelve spammer accounts. Improved firewall rules. Sent abuse report to ISP. Thanks for reporting.
[10:46:15] <Tobias> ta
[10:47:18] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[10:48:52] *** daniel has left the room
[10:48:58] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:49:15] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[10:54:24] *** daniel has left the room
[10:59:35] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:00:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:00:26] <jonasw> Holger, in XMPP, the order of elements of different names (e.g. <{disco}feature/> and <{disco}identity/>) is irrelevant. this can be, but is very hard to, represent with XSD
[11:00:35] <jonasw> but sure, if you use your own validation, that doesn’t affect you, zinid
[11:02:18] <zinid> this is not strictly speaking the validation, it's more like ASN.1 codec, which transforms XML into internal language structure
[11:02:23] <zinid> but validation is performed during decoding, yes
[11:02:58] <jonasw> you have a weird obsession for ASN.1
[11:03:02] <jonasw> which is fine, I guess
[11:03:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:04:47] <tux> zinid: You do Erlang, too? xD
[11:04:51] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[11:05:30] <tux> (just kidding)
[11:05:38] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[11:05:51] <zinid> tux, well, erlang knowledge is required for ejabberd development, most of the time 🙂
[11:06:03] *** daniel has left the room
[11:06:36] <Holger> jonasw: <xs:complexType><xs:all><xs:element name="feature"/><xs:element name="identity"/></xs:all></xs:complexType> won't do the trick?
[11:06:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:06:42] <zinid> jonasw, ha, you didn't see my obsession regarding parsers yet 😀
[11:07:37] <jonasw> Holger, afaik not
[11:07:39] <jonasw> I.
[11:07:41] <zinid> jonasw, for example, from this ABNF file https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/c_src/uri.abnf the parser code is generated: https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/c_src/xmpp_uri.c
[11:07:45] <jonasw> I think that enforces order between feature and identity
[11:07:53] *** jubalh has joined the room
[11:08:02] <Holger> jonasw: No. That would be xs:sequence instead of xs:all.
[11:08:29] <jonasw> Holger, tbh, I have not much of an idea about XSD, I tried to read the spec and I find it massively confusing
[11:08:35] <jonasw> there have been some comments w.r.t. on standards@
[11:08:53] <Ge0rG> Ah, the new rules absolutely pay off. Found another 18 spammer accounts.
[11:10:32] <tux> zinid: yeah, that's true. 8)
[11:12:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:12:45] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:12:49] <Holger> jonasw: I'm not much into it either, dunno whether you can express all XMPP syntax weirdness with XSD.
[11:16:40] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:18:08] *** sonny has left the room
[11:18:11] *** sonny shows as "online"
[11:20:53] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:22:10] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[11:22:39] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[11:22:39] *** intosi has left the room
[11:23:46] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:24:11] *** sonny shows as "online"
[11:24:33] *** daniel has left the room
[11:24:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:25:13] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:25:53] *** sonny has left the room
[11:25:54] *** sonny shows as "online"
[11:26:39] *** daniel has left the room
[11:26:45] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:31:28] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:31:41] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:33:26] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:34:27] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[11:36:46] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[11:37:03] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:43:49] *** mhterres has joined the room
[11:43:49] *** mhterres has left the room
[11:44:18] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:45:37] <Ge0rG> inetnum: 176.126.252.8 - 176.126.252.15
netname: FVDE
descr: Tor Exit Node Hosting
[11:45:59] <Ge0rG> Whoops. Four of five IPs that injected spam today are exit nodes.
[11:47:19] <zinid> wow, suddenly
[11:47:48] *** lumi has joined the room
[11:47:52] *** daniel has left the room
[11:48:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:48:09] <zinid> just ban all exit nodes 😀
[11:48:44] <Zash> Require all Tor users fill in a Google Captcha!
[11:48:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:49:16] *** daniel has left the room
[11:49:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:50:04] *** intosi has joined the room
[11:51:59] *** @Alacer has left the room
[11:52:30] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[11:54:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:57:00] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[11:58:27] *** sonny shows as "away"
[11:59:13] <intosi> Ge0rG: good busy!
[12:01:43] *** daniel has left the room
[12:01:48] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:03:21] <Ge0rG> Okay, so I've deleted another 50 accounts
[12:07:22] *** sonny shows as "online"
[12:10:36] *** McKael shows as "online"
[12:14:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:14:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:17:25] *** stefandxm has left the room
[12:18:16] *** sonny shows as "away"
[12:18:49] *** daniel has left the room
[12:18:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:20:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:26:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:26:27] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:28:19] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[12:29:19] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:29:46] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[12:29:47] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[12:36:05] *** jere has joined the room
[12:36:17] *** Syndace has left the room
[12:36:20] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:36:20] *** Syndace has joined the room
[12:37:33] *** sonny shows as "online"
[12:37:39] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[12:39:47] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[12:42:46] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[12:42:53] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[12:44:48] *** blabla has joined the room
[12:44:48] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:44:49] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:48:15] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[12:48:55] *** lumi shows as "online"
[12:52:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:53:36] *** Alex has joined the room
[12:53:57] *** Alex shows as "online"
[12:54:47] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[12:55:02] *** daniel has left the room
[12:55:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:57:42] *** jubalh has left the room
[13:03:52] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:03:54] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:07:34] <Ge0rG> @iteam - our wiki claims "The XMPP Standards Foundation maintains a dedicated email list (muc@xmpp.org) about MUC" but there is no such list. Does anybody want one?
[13:08:08] <jonasw> I’m pretty sure I was on that list.
[13:08:13] <jonasw> it was deleted though
[13:08:24] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[13:08:29] <jonasw>
Subject: [MUC] deleting this list
Date: 14.02.13 05:09
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
To: muc@xmpp.org

I just deleted the specialized bosh@xmpp.org list. I think it would be
appropriate to do the same with the muc@xmpp.org list. Instead of
having a specialized conversation here, we'll simply use the main
standards@xmpp.org list.

Any objections?

Peter
[13:08:46] <jonasw> the only reply to that was from someone who claimed to not have done anything with jabber for 3 years
[13:09:10] <Ge0rG> How appropriate.
[13:09:55] *** daniel has left the room
[13:10:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:10:28] <Zash> Hah
[13:11:04] <jonasw> TBH, I don’t see a use-case for separate lists
[13:11:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, edit that out of the wiki maybe?
[13:11:41] <Zash> jonasw: Very active topics that drown out others?
[13:12:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: done
[13:12:45] <jonasw> Zash, I find standards@ still comfortable to read
[13:13:33] <Kev> I think it's more about interests not overlapping than about traffic.
[13:13:54] <Ge0rG> If only we had threaded email-like message support in XMPP.
[13:14:03] <Zash> It works like a sort of filter, but enforced by the sender instead of the receiver
[13:14:07] <Kev> If you expect the same people on both lists, it's not gaining much, but if you think lots of people care about MUC, but not other stuff on standards@ there's a point.
[13:14:11] <Kev> I don't think there is in this case.
[13:17:29] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:17:43] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:21:38] *** daniel has left the room
[13:21:57] *** marc has left the room
[13:29:11] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[13:29:30] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[13:30:57] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:39:23] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:40:30] *** jcbrand has left the room
[13:40:31] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:41:21] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[13:51:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:57:47] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:01:24] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:03:06] *** uc has joined the room
[14:04:18] *** Alex has left the room
[14:07:31] *** lskdjf has left the room
[14:07:31] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:07:55] *** daniel has left the room
[14:08:02] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:11:46] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:12:57] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:18:07] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:18:11] *** sonny shows as "online"
[14:18:25] *** zinid shows as "online"
[14:20:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:23:02] *** Holger has left the room
[14:23:14] *** Martin has left the room
[14:24:27] *** Holger shows as "online"
[14:25:13] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:25:18] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:28:43] *** zinid has left the room
[14:30:05] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:30:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:35:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:35:53] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:36:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:36:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:42:55] *** sonny shows as "away"
[14:42:58] *** marc has left the room
[14:43:18] *** efrit has joined the room
[14:46:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:49:39] *** lovetox has joined the room
[14:50:14] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:54:02] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:54:49] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:55:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:56:52] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why aren’t you in jdev@?
[15:04:12] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[15:05:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not?
[15:05:28] <jonasw> now you’re
[15:05:35] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I had a power outage.
[15:06:52] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:07:27] *** waqas has joined the room
[15:07:28] *** waqas has left the room
[15:08:54] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:12:13] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:12:25] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[15:12:51] *** jere has joined the room
[15:14:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:14:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:14:40] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:14:45] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:15:15] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:15:45] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:18:04] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:18:10] *** McKael shows as "online"
[15:18:25] *** efrit has left the room
[15:19:52] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[15:20:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:25:58] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:26:17] *** daniel has left the room
[15:26:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:26:49] *** marc has joined the room
[15:26:55] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:27:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:27:39] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:28:13] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:29:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:29:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:31:10] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[15:31:13] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:32:14] *** blabla has left the room
[15:32:23] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[15:32:36] *** daniel has left the room
[15:32:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:33:51] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:34:36] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:35:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:35:53] *** Tobias has left the room
[15:38:18] *** Zash has left the room
[15:42:09] *** daniel has left the room
[15:42:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:43:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:44:23] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:44:23] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:44:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[15:45:18] *** sonny has left the room
[15:45:22] *** sonny shows as "online"
[15:45:55] <jonasw> zinid, re your standards@ reply:
> Well, yes, it will be timed out. I also don't think this is a
> violation, because in this case we cannot block IQ from flooders for
> example, as this is also a violation.
[15:46:04] <jonasw> I would suggest to send some IQ type="error" back in these cases
[15:46:18] <jonasw> and making IQ requests timeout is super-annoying
[15:46:27] <Kev> You can't type=error to a result or an error.
[15:46:31] <jonasw> Kev, yes
[15:46:37] <jonasw> this was in response to what he said about flooders
[15:46:49] <jonasw> (which is why I didn’t reply on the standards@ thread)
[15:47:30] *** sonny shows as "online"
[15:48:36] *** stefandxm has left the room
[15:48:49] *** sonny has left the room
[15:48:54] *** sonny shows as "online"
[15:53:16] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:53:29] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:55:27] *** sonny has left the room
[15:55:31] *** sonny shows as "online"
[15:55:49] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:58:13] *** sonny has left the room
[15:58:49] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:06:29] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[16:07:02] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:07:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:08:25] *** marc has left the room
[16:08:26] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:12:23] *** marc has joined the room
[16:12:53] <zinid> jonasw, why would I send iq=errors to flood IQs? wtf?
[16:13:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:13:11] <zinid> what if this is a dos attack, I should do that too?
[16:13:30] <jonasw> zinid, depends on how sure you are that it’s a genuine flood
[16:13:43] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:13:47] <zinid> ok, so if I want that much, then I can 🙂
[16:13:54] <jonasw> if might also be a client which is confused or simply has a lot of things to do. sending proper type="wait" errors back.
[16:14:00] <jonasw> it might also be a client which is confused or simply has a lot of things to do. sending proper type="wait" errors back.
[16:14:13] <jonasw> it might also be a client which is confused or simply has a lot of things to do. sending proper type="wait" errors back seems more reasonable to me, until it becomes a burden.
[16:14:35] *** marc shows as "online"
[16:14:39] <zinid> whatever, as daniel said any discussions are pointless
[16:14:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:14:48] <zinid> you already built up your mind, why bother
[16:15:51] <zinid> I'm also not sure why on earth I should route (or store) malformed packets
[16:17:28] *** daniel has left the room
[16:17:32] <jonasw> because you can’t be sure that they’re malformed
[16:17:34] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:17:42] <zinid> jonasw, I can if I have schema
[16:18:15] <jonasw> okay, but then you have to consider how schemas are used in XMPP and acknowledge that elements and attributes may be added at any time, and must be ignored
[16:18:35] <zinid> well, that's the rule I don't like
[16:18:45] <jonasw> I know that
[16:18:49] <jonasw> but that’s how XMPP works and has always worked
[16:18:59] <jonasw> (*always: to my knowledge)
[16:19:02] <zinid> and where is it now?
[16:19:28] <jonasw> I don’t think that this specific rule is the cause of the low popularity of XMPP
[16:19:50] *** daniel has left the room
[16:19:53] <zinid> it can be pretty much though
[16:19:59] <jonasw> how?
[16:20:00] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:20:13] <zinid> what? lack of formal validation of packets/
[16:20:14] <zinid> ?
[16:20:19] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:20:26] <zinid> for example, some people would rather use something more robust, like asn.1
[16:20:29] <jonasw> you can formally validate what you know about, there’s no problem with that
[16:20:55] <jonasw> no, if you’re going down the "no XML" route, what people nowadays want to use is JSON
[16:21:03] <zinid> but I know there is no <retry/> element in the schema
[16:21:10] <jonasw> in which schema?
[16:21:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:21:18] <jonasw> the one you made up, or the non-normative which may or may not be in the XEP?
[16:21:27] <zinid> ah, indeed, we don't even have schemas
[16:21:30] <jonasw> exactly
[16:21:36] <Zash> The 'critical' property of things in ASN.1 sure seems nice
[16:21:47] <jonasw> because the rule I mentioned earlier (unknown things need to be ignored, and also the order of things does not matter) is hard to codify in XMLSchema
[16:22:00] <jonasw> Zash, google dropped "required" in protocol buffers 3.0
[16:22:07] <jonasw> (critical is "you have to understand it", right?)
[16:22:14] <zinid> jonasw, yeah, and you resorted for postulate this ad-hoc
[16:22:27] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[16:22:34] <jonasw> zinid, I don’t understand your statement, sorry, could you rephrase?
[16:22:34] <Zash> jonasw: Yes. If you don't understand something marked 'critical' then that's a fatal error and you should abort everything.
[16:22:51] <Zash> Much nicer than just blanked ignoring of everything not understood.
[16:22:56] <jonasw> Zash, idneed
[16:23:00] <jonasw> we could have that, if we wanted to
[16:23:11] <Zash> In XML? Hrrrm
[16:23:14] <jonasw> but even then I’d find it questionable for a server to decide what a client understands
[16:23:33] <jonasw> Zash, xmpp:critical="true", define xmpp prefix on <stream:stream/>, be done with it :-)
[16:23:36] <jonasw> but SamWhited will kill me for that
[16:23:49] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[16:23:57] <Zash> It probably wouldn't have much use outside of initial stream negotation
[16:24:09] <jonasw> possibly
[16:24:14] <Zash> Well. Depends
[16:24:28] <Zash> Altho that's working fine enough.
[16:25:28] *** Kev has left the room
[16:26:28] <zinid> jonasw, nah, I'm pretty much bored
[16:26:35] <zinid> jonasw, I will anyway do what I think better
[16:31:14] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:32:30] *** daniel has left the room
[16:32:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:36:28] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:36:49] *** sonny has left the room
[16:36:52] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:37:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:39:34] *** Guus has left the room
[16:39:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:40:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[16:41:34] *** sonny has left the room
[16:41:39] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:42:18] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:44:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:47:34] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:47:41] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:47:50] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:48:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:49:03] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:49:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:49:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:49:41] *** sonny has left the room
[16:49:43] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:50:36] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:51:23] *** sonny has left the room
[16:51:26] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:53:06] *** jere has joined the room
[16:53:59] *** sonny has left the room
[16:54:02] *** sonny shows as "online"
[17:07:13] *** Lance has joined the room
[17:07:14] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:09:05] *** Lance has left the room
[17:11:26] *** daniel has left the room
[17:11:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:11:36] *** lumi shows as "online"
[17:12:02] *** @Alacer has left the room
[17:12:11] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[17:13:33] *** Guus has left the room
[17:13:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:14:36] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:14:36] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[17:15:10] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:15:54] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:17:19] *** Tobias has left the room
[17:17:29] *** Tobias has joined the room
[17:17:57] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[17:17:58] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:23:21] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:23:21] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:24:14] *** Guus has left the room
[17:27:50] *** zinid has left the room
[17:30:32] <Holger> Basic XEP-0060 question. I don't get how the interaction of proper PubSub (non-PEP) nodes with presence is supposed to work.
[17:31:06] <Holger> E.g. pubsub#access_model=presence. This assumes the PubSub service has access to the node owner's roster data? The node owner might be a remote user, no?
[17:31:23] <jonasw> yes, I think so
[17:31:32] <jonasw> that access model probably simply doesn’t work for services where this isn’t true
[17:31:56] <Holger> Or pubsub#send_last_published_item=on_sub_and_presence (this is even the default).
[17:32:04] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:32:11] <Holger> This assumes the PubSub service will receive presence from the subscriber?
[17:32:28] <jonasw> probably
[17:32:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:33:08] <Holger> It's like these parts of 0060 were written without federation in mind.
[17:35:52] *** stefandxm has left the room
[17:38:13] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:39:41] <Zash> In theory, the service could send a presence request
[17:41:43] <jonasw> Zash, so it’d have to regularly type="probe" the subscribers?
[17:42:12] *** arc has left the room
[17:42:20] <Zash> jonasw: if it's subscribed, it should get presence pushed to it, like any other contact
[17:42:53] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:44:08] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:44:38] *** arc has joined the room
[17:44:56] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:45:22] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:46:35] <jonasw> oh good point
[17:47:01] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:47:11] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:47:57] *** Syndace has left the room
[17:48:03] *** Syndace has joined the room
[17:49:15] *** Guus has left the room
[17:49:16] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:51:04] <zinid> you still need to send probes after restart
[17:53:11] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:53:31] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[17:53:32] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:54:26] <Zash> Sure, it would have to do the things the server does for users with rosters.
[18:00:14] *** Guus has left the room
[18:01:43] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:01:45] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:06:46] *** zinid has left the room
[18:07:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:07:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:08:15] *** nyco has left the room
[18:08:29] *** nyco has joined the room
[18:08:35] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:08:44] *** jere has joined the room
[18:17:58] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:19:08] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:19:34] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:20:37] *** zinid shows as "online"
[18:20:39] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:20:39] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:22:52] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:22:53] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:25:40] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:25:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:26:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:26:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:29:35] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:32:04] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[18:32:05] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[18:32:18] <jonasw> Zash, do servers do that on behalf of components?
[18:32:21] <jonasw> argh
[18:32:24] <jonasw> nevermind, I misread your sentence
[18:32:51] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:33:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:35:27] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:38:52] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:42:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:47:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:47:29] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:47:43] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:48:52] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:48:54] *** stefandxm has left the room
[18:49:34] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[18:50:08] *** zinid has left the room
[18:51:59] *** zinid shows as "online"
[18:55:40] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:58:04] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:58:13] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[18:59:03] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:00:40] *** sonny has left the room
[19:00:43] *** sonny shows as "online"
[19:02:00] *** sonny has left the room
[19:02:02] *** sonny shows as "online"
[19:03:00] *** sonny has left the room
[19:03:03] *** sonny shows as "online"
[19:04:56] *** daniel has left the room
[19:05:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:08:54] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:09:04] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:10:30] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:11:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:12:45] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[19:12:51] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:15:31] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:15:34] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:16:42] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:18:04] *** jcbrand has left the room
[19:19:02] *** zinid has left the room
[19:21:18] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:30:45] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:32:20] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:35:31] *** tux has joined the room
[19:38:59] *** daniel has left the room
[19:39:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:42:09] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:42:20] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:47:56] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:48:07] *** Tobias has joined the room
[19:49:05] *** bear has left the room
[19:50:30] *** bear has joined the room
[19:50:30] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:53:48] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:53:53] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:56:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:56:14] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[19:58:29] *** sonny shows as "online"
[20:01:11] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:04:35] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:05:24] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:06:31] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:09:14] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:09:24] *** Alex shows as "online"
[20:13:41] *** sonny shows as "online"
[20:18:43] *** daniel has left the room
[20:19:17] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:20:09] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[20:20:10] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:20:57] *** Guus has left the room
[20:20:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:21:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:24:19] <daniel> Briefly looking over Ge0rG's email. Retraction... Wait there is a retraction feature in MIX? 😂
[20:24:40] <daniel> That makes me wonder what else is in there
[20:24:53] <jonasw> that mail is long enough to make kmail think for a moment before showing it. well done, Ge0rG
[20:25:30] <Ge0rG> daniel: that mail was shorter than I expected.
[20:25:49] <jonasw> that mail is long enough to make kmail think for a moment before showing it. well done, Ge0rG)
[20:26:04] <daniel> I wonder if Georg will be talking about the dish washing feature later in the email
[20:26:11] <jonasw> :D
[20:26:16] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:26:25] <Ge0rG> no, but there is a valet parking feature.
[20:26:29] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:26:47] <daniel> For scooter and cars?
[20:27:00] <Steve Kille> daniel: there is both user and administrator retraction. Both can be configured on or off
[20:27:13] <Ge0rG> for gas driven locomotives
[20:27:15] <Steve Kille> Ge0rG: will add the valet parking feature in next update
[20:27:33] <Steve Kille> Ge0rG: I plan to respond to your email later this week
[20:28:10] <Ge0rG> Steve Kille: I think there is no need to hurry. It took me multiple weeks to read the XEP and write the mail, so take your time :)
[20:28:56] *** lovetox has left the room
[20:32:40] <daniel> Ge0rG, LMC should probably be changed to use origin-ids
[20:33:00] <intosi> Steve Kille: is this valet parking feature available for my office trip next week? :)
[20:33:14] *** Guus has left the room
[20:33:24] <Ge0rG> daniel: I think the stanza-id XEP should be changed to enforce a client setting message-id = origin-id.
[20:33:41] <Ge0rG> intosi: only if you implement MIX 2.0 until then
[20:33:43] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:34:11] <daniel> Ge0rG, probably. but that's orthogonal to changing LMC et al to using origin-ids
[20:34:34] <Ge0rG> daniel: changing LMC et all would be a breaking change.
[20:34:48] <daniel> and most sane implementations will already set message-id=origin-id
[20:34:51] <daniel> Ge0rG, sure
[20:35:01] <daniel> but it's a breaking change either way
[20:35:15] <Ge0rG> daniel: it's not a breaking change to fix stanza-id ;)
[20:35:59] <daniel> yes?! but it's still orthogonal
[20:36:06] <Ge0rG> daniel: you might resurrect the thread I had with Flow regarding that topic in October.
[20:36:24] <Ge0rG> let's say its complementary.
[20:36:30] *** stefandxm has left the room
[20:36:38] <daniel> even if you force origin-id to be the same as message-id. if lmc gives origin-id precedence over message-id that's still a breaking change
[20:36:52] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:36:57] <daniel> because that xep has to deal with the case where they are not the same
[20:37:01] <Ge0rG> can't we just properly fix message-id, once and for all?
[20:37:17] <daniel> fix meaning?
[20:37:29] <Ge0rG> mandate globally unique message IDs
[20:37:48] <Ge0rG> and just plain reject messages that violate that rule
[20:37:54] <daniel> that doesn't prevent services from rewriting the id though
[20:38:07] <daniel> which is imho the bigger issue
[20:38:13] <Ge0rG> daniel: stopping id rewriting would be the other part of fixing message-id
[20:38:37] <Zash> But is the outgoing message from a MUC really the same message as the incoming one?
[20:38:40] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:38:46] *** daniel has left the room
[20:38:52] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:39:03] <Ge0rG> Zash: if a tree falls in a MUC, and there are no participants, will there be a presence update?
[20:39:17] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:39:21] <Zash> Schrödingers presence update.
[20:39:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:39:40] *** Alex has left the room
[20:39:47] <Ge0rG> Zash: when you want to LMC a MUC message you just sent, will you use the sent-message-id, the reflected-message-id, the MAM id or the origin-id?
[20:40:03] <daniel> origin-id
[20:40:14] <daniel> (once the XEP says so)
[20:40:19] <Ge0rG> Zash: is it the MUC service's task to track all message ID references it rewrites and fix them?
[20:40:23] <zinid> origin-id, stanza-id
[20:40:34] <zinid> you guys are reinventing version vectors and vector clocks
[20:40:36] *** daniel has left the room
[20:40:44] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:41:17] <Ge0rG> http://www.abdsphysics.com/uploads/6/5/0/9/65090265/4802565.png?540
[20:42:08] <Ge0rG> I think that it's very typical for the XMPP standardization process that we end up with a message having three different IDs.
[20:42:32] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:42:40] *** daniel has left the room
[20:43:11] <Zash> Why don't we stick a nonce in each message, apply canonicalization and declare that the message id is a hash of the canonical serialization of it?
[20:43:12] <daniel> fwiw Conversations already gives origin-id precedence over stanza-id when it comes to LMC, reciepts chat markers
[20:43:18] <Zash> /s ;)
[20:43:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:43:55] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:43:57] <Ge0rG> daniel: please comment on the "UPDATED: XEP-0359 (Unique and Stable Stanza IDs)" thread.
[20:44:15] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:44:59] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:45:48] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[20:52:32] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:52:37] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:55:35] *** sonny shows as "online"
[20:55:38] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[20:58:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[20:59:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[20:59:59] *** Guus has left the room
[20:59:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:01:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:01:11] <Ge0rG> daniel: thanks! :)
[21:02:01] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:04:53] *** tux shows as "online"
[21:06:57] *** zinid has left the room
[21:07:35] *** daniel has left the room
[21:07:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:09:18] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:10:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:10:34] *** jjrh has left the room
[21:10:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:11:25] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:13:22] *** sonny shows as "online"
[21:13:23] *** sonny shows as "online"
[21:14:11] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[21:15:14] *** Guus has left the room
[21:16:53] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:17:38] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:19:08] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:19:51] *** intosi shows as "online"
[21:20:17] *** sonny has left the room
[21:23:00] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:24:47] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Afwezig"
[21:36:48] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:37:40] *** Zash has left the room
[21:39:05] *** Zash has joined the room
[21:39:30] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:41:22] *** lumi has left the room
[21:45:15] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:45:32] *** jcbrand has left the room
[21:48:35] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:48:35] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:01:10] *** Zash has left the room
[22:08:13] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[22:08:14] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:09:20] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:09:24] *** jubalh has joined the room
[22:09:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:09:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:11:02] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:12:45] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:13:47] *** ralphm has joined the room
[22:13:59] *** Guus has left the room
[22:13:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:14:24] *** nyco has left the room
[22:14:30] *** nyco has joined the room
[22:20:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:25:13] *** stefandxm has left the room
[22:27:14] *** Guus has left the room
[22:37:48] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:37:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:37:59] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:38:01] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[22:38:12] *** daniel has left the room
[22:38:16] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:38:56] *** Guus has left the room
[22:41:33] *** marc has left the room
[22:41:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[22:43:33] *** marc has left the room
[22:43:45] *** marc has joined the room
[22:44:32] *** pep. has left the room
[22:50:49] *** daniel has left the room
[22:50:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:59:11] *** edhelas has left the room
[22:59:29] *** edhelas has joined the room
[23:01:20] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[23:01:21] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:02:44] *** jubalh has left the room
[23:03:08] *** daniel has left the room
[23:03:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:06:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[23:09:27] *** Kev has joined the room
[23:09:28] *** Kev shows as "online"
[23:10:59] *** Guus has joined the room
[23:14:12] *** daniel has left the room
[23:20:01] *** @Alacer has left the room
[23:20:28] *** marc has left the room
[23:20:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:21:43] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:28:14] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[23:28:41] *** daniel has left the room
[23:30:51] *** sonny has joined the room
[23:30:53] *** Kev shows as "away"
[23:45:45] *** goffi has left the room
[23:49:35] *** Kev has left the room
[23:52:11] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:52:55] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[23:53:11] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:53:11] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:56:19] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[23:56:20] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"