XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2017-12-14


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  77. moparisthebest can, or should I say do, any XEPs define new stanzas ?
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  81. SamWhited moparisthebest: no, and no. You can define payloads to be transmitted in existing stanzas or new unroutable top level elements, but not new routable stanzas with their own delivery semantics.
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  84. moparisthebest that makes sense but I wasn't absolutely positive
  85. moparisthebest thanks SamWhited
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  135. Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you define a new routable stanza type, you'll have to change all existing clients and servers
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  169. jonasw daniel, please re-send the council minutes to standards@
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  206. Guus Fellow board members: I've mentioned this in mail last week, but didn't get any ack, so just in case it was missed: I won't be able to make todays meeting.
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  219. Flow dwd: "I deliberately use a fixed resource string here because it makes debugging much easier.", so what do you think about bind 2.0 not allowing for that?
  220. dwd Flow, Pretty sure you know the answer to that. :-)
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  222. Zash Prosody doesn't initiate piggybacking, everything is weird
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  225. Flow dwd: I can only guess. I still hope we could give clients the ability to provide a resource prefix when using bind 2.0
  226. jonasw I don’t see a use in a prefix. It can’t be used for addressing, which would be my main use-case for stable resources.
  227. Kev Flow / dwd: Except that the split resource thing actually means that in this case it's just as easy.
  228. Kev jonasw: Debugging is easier if you have friendly parts to the resource, at least.
  229. Flow jonasw, it's not about stable resources, but as debugging aid
  230. Flow Kev, didn't get that, sorry. It's just as easy was *what*?
  231. Kev It wasn't important.
  232. Flow Kev, It still would be nice to understand what you meant
  233. Kev I think that a resource of kev@isode/client1/{random} is as easy to debug as kev@isode/client1 in terms of grepping and following logs. While kev@isode/{random} does definitely make it difficult.
  234. Kev Or more difficult, anyway.
  235. Kev My bind2 plan is still the split-resource thing we discussed at the summit, to allow for this.
  236. Ge0rG But what was discussed at the summit is `kev@isode/{random}/{morerandom}`, which is just crazy.
  237. Guus I think what was discussed was `kev@isode/{freeform-butpredictable}/{random}
  238. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure the consensus was kev@isode/{client-generated-uuid}/{server-generated-uuid} with a strong implication of those horrible 128-bit-hex-blobs
  239. dwd I have to admit I'm worried that all jids will now begin "kev@isode".
  240. dwd WE ARE ALL KEVS NOW.
  241. Ge0rG dwd: the double-UUID namespace would allow for a conflict-less mapping of all XMPP users onto kev@isode, at least.
  242. Guus you can't have enough Kevs.
  243. jonasw Guus, the proper way to add me to Summit is to simply edit the wiki page?
  244. dwd But anyway. I understand that there is benefit in some implementations to enforce a server-written portion of the resource. I don't think this benefit is applicable to all implementations.
  245. Guus Ge0rG: I was under the impression that we discussed a combination of a human-recognizable identifier (for easy debugging/grepping), and a random part (to prevent predictable full jids). But then again, I'm enjoying the sight of a new castle every 7 seconds or so.
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  247. jonasw (Guus: this is the wiki page I’m talking about: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 )
  248. Guus jonasw: and show up in Brussels. :)
  249. jonasw well, yes
  250. dwd And right now, I'm more concerned about fragile clients and misbehaving servers when trying to join chatrooms.
  251. Ge0rG Guus: I'm solving that for many years now by using `"yaxim.%08x" % uint.random()`
  252. Guus jonasw: there's a MUC and a mailinglist you might want to subscribe to.
  253. Ge0rG dwd: welcome to MUC hell.
  254. jonasw Guus, URIs?
  255. jonasw (ugh, yet-another-MUC, I’m running out of tabs!)
  256. Guus summit@
  257. Guus summit@muc.xmpp.org
  258. Guus summit@xmpp.org for the mailing list.
  259. jonasw thanks
  260. dwd Ge0rG, Well, the actual bug here is in S2S routing, not in MUC per se.
  261. jonasw Guus, is there a recommended check-in/check-out date if one wants to participate in the Summit?
  262. jonasw like, "latest recommended check-in, earliest possible check-out to get all of summit"
  263. jonasw e.g. would it be sufficient to arrive on the 1st, or is that too close?
  264. jonasw same for checkout
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  267. Ge0rG dwd: I'm sure that the problem is triggered by s2s issues, but it's still a shortcoming of the MUC protocol
  268. Guus jonasw: having attended only once, I'm not much of an expert, but last year, the summit was two full days. From the Netherlands, I arrived in the morning, and was able to attend the entire day, then spent four days to also be able to visit FOSDEM. I think I travelled back on Monday, to catch all of FOSDEM.
  269. jonasw I see
  270. Guus jonasw: maybe take further questions to summit@ ? :)
  271. jonasw soooo maaaany muuucs :)
  272. jonasw but sure
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  278. dwd Ge0rG, What's the shortcoming? If traffic is dropped due to a bug, and a client relies on perfect network conditions, then I think blaming the protocol is a little excessive.
  279. dwd Ge0rG, Not saying I think MUC is perfect, but I don't think it's the MUC protocol at fault in this instance.
  280. Ge0rG dwd: the MUC protocol lacks provisions to test whether the client is still connected and to restore connectivity. The existing workarounds are very complicated and unreliable
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  282. dwd Ge0rG, Sure. But the sequence I showed occured on initial client connect. The client *knows* that it's disconnected from the chatroom (the MUC might not, but we have a simple atomic solution there).
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  285. Ge0rG dwd: in that case I'm going to read your mail now
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  319. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  320. ralphm bangs gavel
  321. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  322. nyco hey
  323. ralphm Hi! Who do we have?
  324. nyco many
  325. ralphm MattJ, Guus, Martin?
  326. Guus ralphm: in absent as announced
  327. nyco Guus said he can't be there
  328. MattJ Hey
  329. ralphm I missed that
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  333. ralphm So we are lacking two. I am a bit worried about appointing a Chair for this Board's term. Since we haven't been complete since the start of the term, we haven't been able to do this, and we have to figure out how to resolve this. I don't think hoping we are complete a next meeting is a good strategy. Ideas welcome
  334. Kev Ask for volunteers on-list. Vote at the next meeting. Anyone missing has 7 days to vote.
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  337. Kev Ideally in the new year, in case people are going to be absent due to the holidays.
  338. Kev But something like this :)
  339. MattJ Yeah, I'd be fine with that
  340. ralphm Ok, I'll draft an e-mail about this
  341. nyco let's schedule a dedicated meeting, specifically for this, at an agreed time & date
  342. ralphm nyco: we do. It is called a board meeting
  343. nyco I mean at a different time
  344. nyco one that is specific, short, dedicated, efficient
  345. ralphm come on, we tried to agree upon a date for the last few meetings and didn't get everyone to respond (in time)
  346. ralphm These meetings were short (30min) and efficient.
  347. MattJ Yeah, this is the time and day that everyone agreed on
  348. ralphm Ok. Given the rest of the agenda and the lack of 2 people, I suggest we adjourn.
  349. ralphm I'll send that e-mail and we meet in +1
  350. ralphm W
  351. MattJ wfm
  352. MattJ Thanks ralphm
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  355. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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  393. dwd Martin's ill. Or as he put it this morning, developing a closer relationship with the toilet. Sorry, should have passed that on.
  394. Zash Question: Why does the new board and council go "live" right after elections?
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  396. Guus Zash: the bylaws state that an elected official holds office until a successor has been appointed (paraphrased).
  397. Guus I don't know why that was put in.
  398. Guus Having more procedure would add complexity. If there's benefit to it, I'd be open to changes.
  399. Guus why are you asking?
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  401. Zash Wondering about having a transition period to ease handoff.
  402. Guus I'm not sure if it'd meaningfully ease things. The added complexity might outweigh it.
  403. Zash But suddenly I'm unsure if any of the orgs I've been involved had that or not.
  404. Guus (also, the current board differs with just one person from last years board - not sure if there is the need for much transitioning)
  405. jonasw dwd, ugh, I hope Martin gets well soon!
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  413. Kev I don't think you need concurrent or delayed responsibilities to do handover.
  414. Kev It's not like a job where you leave the building.
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  437. dwd Kev, I have pondered, in the past, suggesting that we stagger elections though, to try and maintain some sort of continuity. But not enough to actually propose anything concrete.
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  441. Zash Like, elect half the board at a time?
  442. Ge0rG We have that process with the XSF Membership.
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  447. Tobias we do indeed
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  460. moparisthebest it wouldn't be bad to kind of interleave them with member votes, that would actually bring number of votes per year down
  461. moparisthebest like we vote for members 4 times a year, we could vote for council/board 2 of those times also
  462. Ge0rG but then we only vote for half the board.
  463. Ge0rG the process will be... challenging
  464. moparisthebest why?
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  471. nyco 2.5 humans?
  472. moparisthebest I think we could divide it sanely :P
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  474. Guus I'm not opposed to any of this, but I'm not seeing real benefit either.
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  481. nyco well, refreshing half the team mid-term is a good practice, generally given we are short on resource and engagement, that would generate onboarding overhead
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