Friday, December 15, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:15:42] <pep.> Ge0rG, can you point me to a thread for PARS? (on standards?)
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[08:11:54] <Ge0rG> It's in the June 2016 archive I think, will look up from PC later
[08:16:12] <jonasw> LMSTFY
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[08:17:59] <jonasw> pep.,
https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-June/031150.html
https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-April/032599.html
https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-May/032616.html
(if you get a chance, Ge0rG, please confirm that this is the thread you meant to link)
[08:18:08] <jonasw> (those are three links, but it’s the same thread, mailman archive is stupid)
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[08:19:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: thanks, those are exactly the right links
[08:19:13] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yw
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[09:11:36] <marc> There was some guy who proposed a protocol to access SMS via XMPP from multiple clients. What happend with this protocol/idea?
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[09:12:48] <Ge0rG> marc: are you talking about https://jmp.chat/ or moparisthebest' self-echo component?
[09:12:59] <Ge0rG> https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self
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[09:13:03] <marc> Ge0rG, probably the self-echo stuff
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[09:13:18] <marc> GitHub not reachable... fuck ... :D
[09:13:44] <Zash> Allow me to point and laugh
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[10:00:47] <marc> Ge0rG, do we need to return the TOKEN (ad-hoc command)?
[10:01:46] <marc> Could be used as manual fallback but apart from that I don't know a good reason to return it
[10:02:06] <Ge0rG> marc: we MUST return an xmpp: URI and we MAY return a web URI
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[10:02:31] <marc> Ge0rG, yes, I know but this wasn't the question :P
[10:03:28] <Ge0rG> marc: my answer was supposed to be comprehensive, so we should not return anything beyond that
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[10:05:44] <Ge0rG> marc: one could think about adding a description text, token validity info, onboarding information etc.; but I think a minimal protocol is beneficial
[10:06:10] <marc> Ge0rG, well I already have defined a token expiration field :)
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[10:07:23] <Ge0rG> marc: I think that URI and URL are not the right names, BTW.
[10:07:48] <marc> Ge0rG, I'm open for suggestions :)
[10:09:35] <Ge0rG> marc: I'd go with `uri` for the xmpp: link, but something like `landingpage` or `web` for the https
[10:10:30] <marc> yeah, but it should contain 'url' I think
[10:10:41] <marc> something like landing_url
[10:10:45] <marc> maybe...
[10:10:56] <jonasw> please no underscores in XML
[10:11:05] <Ge0rG> marc: after thinking about it, it's okay to return the validity to the inviter. Their client could create an i18ned message to share, like "Hi, I would like to invite you to chat with me under <https://...>. This link will expire in 2 weeks."
[10:11:22] <Ge0rG> marc: http://ajaxian.com/archives/uri-vs-url-whats-the-difference
[10:11:56] <marc> Ge0rG, I'm glad to hear this ;)
[10:12:34] <marc> Ge0rG, I know the difference between URI and URL
[10:12:39] <marc> Ge0rG, What's your point? :D
[10:12:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do you find it ironic that your link has UTF-8 mojibake?
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[10:12:58] <jonasw> > depending on the client’s capabilities
[10:13:06] <Ge0rG> marc: my point is that by using "uri" and "url" in the response, you imply they are different representations of the same thing, whereas they are different things, more or less.
[10:13:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes. Sorry.
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[10:15:09] <marc> Ge0rG, yes, that's correct so we'll change this. But 'landing_url' or 'invitation_url' are okay in my opinion
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[10:15:35] <Ge0rG> marc: "jonasw> please no underscores in XML"
[10:16:08] <marc> oh, missed that :D
[10:16:15] <marc> What's the reason?
[10:16:23] <jonasw> it’s ugly
[10:16:30] <jonasw> we don’t do it in XMPP so far, AFAIK
[10:16:41] <Ge0rG> jonasw: would you be ok with `landing-url`?
[10:16:41] <jonasw> (the only exception possibly features for PubSub)
[10:16:44] <jonasw> sure
[10:16:55] <marc> Just for reasons of appearance?
[10:17:01] <jonasw> marc, yes :)
[10:17:16] <marc> Ok, I like this :D
[10:19:14] <SouL> landingUrl
[10:19:59] <zinid> CamelCase
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[10:20:08] <Ge0rG> <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'>
<title>Invitation</title>
<reported>
<field var='uri' label='Invitation link'/>
<field var='landing-url' label='Landing Page'/>
<field var='expire' label='Expiration Time'/>
</reported>
<item>
<field var='uri'><value>xmpp:georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field>
<field var='landing-url'><value>https://yax.im/i/#georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field>
<field var='expire'><value>2017-12-17T02:56:15Z</value></field>
</item>
</x>
[10:20:20] <Ge0rG> marc: like this?
[10:20:23] <jonasw> aaaa
[10:20:25] <jonasw> data tables
[10:20:28] <jonasw> I’m afraid of data tables
[10:20:50] <marc> Ge0rG, looks similar to my XEP yes :D
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[10:21:00] <marc> But I don't use reported
[10:21:17] <jonasw> I’m afraid (literally) that Ge0rG is right in his use of reported.
[10:21:19] <marc> I think that's only necessary if you have multiple <item> elements
[10:21:38] <jonasw> marc, using a form would be the wrong semantic here.
[10:21:51] <zinid> and I don't have reported support in ejabberd
[10:21:52] <zinid> great
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[10:22:02] <marc> :D
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[10:22:14] <jonasw> zinid, I know that feel
[10:22:17] <Ge0rG> I've combined an example from ad-hoc with what marc wrote in his XEP.
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[10:22:22] <jonasw> damn
[10:22:28] <jonasw> I was hoping that Ad-Hoc might forbid that
[10:22:45] <marc> :D
[10:22:52] <marc>
<iq type='result' to='romeo@example.com' from='example.com' id='exec2'>
<command xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/commands'
sessionid='config:20020923T213616Z-700'
node='invite'
status='completed'>
<x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'>
<item>
<field var='uri'>
<value>xmpp:example.com?register;invite-token=TOKEN</value>
</field>
<field var='landing-url'>
<value>https://example.com/invite/#TOKEN</value>
</field>
<field var='expire'>
<value>2017-11-06T02:56:15Z</value>
</field>
</item>
</x>
</command>
</iq>
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[10:23:01] <marc> Ignore the XMPP URI...
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[10:23:34] <jonasw> let me delve into the horros and re-read XEP-0004 on the reported thing
[10:24:42] <Holger> > (the only exception possibly features for PubSub)

IIRC we use _ and - inconsistently there \o/
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[10:25:14] <marc> Time to update the XEP then ;)
[10:25:58] <jonasw> it isn’t clear to me whether <reported/> is required when type='result' is used
[10:26:07] <jonasw> there is no normative language regarding that afaict
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[10:28:55] <mathieui> btw, xmpp.net: “ It's too busy, try again later. ”
[10:29:22] <jonasw> again?
[10:29:46] <jonasw> I need to fix that issue which makes some domains break the queue
[10:29:58] <jonasw> but I was hoping not having to touch PHP
[10:30:59] <SouL> underscores for the win!
[10:31:02] <moparisthebest> marc: I also hacked it into my conversations fork and have been using it for a month or so, works great
[10:31:37] <marc> moparisthebest, how do you send SMS? How do you select the recipient?
[10:31:45] <moparisthebest> The hard part has been designing a plugin API but I'm almost done with that too
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[10:31:59] <moparisthebest> The local part of the jid
[10:32:21] <marc> moparisthebest, so you just add a contact to the roster?
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[10:33:54] <moparisthebest> marc: I don't really bother with that yet
[10:33:57] <moparisthebest> https://github.com/moparisthebest/Conversations/tree/sms
[10:34:59] <moparisthebest> That's the hacky code, expect conversations pr and separate stand alone plugin in a few days
[10:35:11] <marc> moparisthebest, hehe nice :)
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[10:53:21] <moparisthebest> marc: if you're much of an Android dev I want MMS with attachments to convert to/from http upload too but MMS on Android looks like a nightmare...
[10:53:40] <jonasw> s/MMS/anything/
[10:53:45] <jonasw> hm, that was unfortunate
[10:53:54] <jonasw> s/MMS/anything/;s/anything/MMS/ should fix it
[10:54:49] <moparisthebest> SMS isn't bad, but yes this is all way worse than plain Java
[10:55:09] <jonasw> and plain java is already bad ;-)
[10:55:20] <SouL> What did you say!?
[10:55:48] <marc> moparisthebest, I'm not really an Android dev :D
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[10:57:21] <moparisthebest> jonasw: well it's no rust, but at least it's not erlang :)
[10:57:27] <marc> moparisthebest, what happens if you have two Conversations clients with your plugin? :)
[10:57:36] <moparisthebest> marc: badness
[10:57:43] <marc> :D
[10:57:52] <moparisthebest> Double sms I'd guess
[10:57:53] <jonasw> moparisthebest, actually, I need to look into erlang.
[10:58:08] <jonasw> that video is convincing
[10:58:10] <marc> I like Erlang somehow :)
[10:58:33] <SouL> jonasw, do you have a link for it? I forgot to bookmark it
[10:58:43] <moparisthebest> Erlang http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/nosql/
[10:58:45] <jonasw> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE
[10:58:46] <jonasw> there you go
[10:58:55] <marc> moparisthebest, do you have plans to fix this or support it?
[10:59:23] <moparisthebest> marc: which
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[10:59:59] <marc> moparisthebest, multiple SMS-capable devices
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[11:02:42] <moparisthebest> marc: each could pick it's own different echo component and then it'd all work fine
[11:02:54] <moparisthebest> And yes the plugin will support that
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[11:03:33] <marc> moparisthebest, but isn't the idea to allow sending SMS from desktop-clients, for example?
[11:03:48] <moparisthebest> Oh wait marc so all connected xmpp clients can send SMS
[11:04:00] <moparisthebest> Only the one conversations needs the plugin
[11:04:11] <moparisthebest> Others need nothing new or special
[11:04:19] <moparisthebest> That all works today
[11:04:21] <marc> Sure but what if I have two smartphones
[11:04:28] <marc> Or two SIM cards?
[11:04:55] <moparisthebest> That when you'd need a seperate echo domain for each
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[11:05:33] <moparisthebest> Otherwise you don't know what number to send with
[11:05:50] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:05:51] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:06:02] <marc> moparisthebest, okay, can you somehow select which echo domain to be used?
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[11:06:14] <moparisthebest> Yes
[11:06:30] <moparisthebest> Not in the hacky version with no options
[11:06:40] <moparisthebest> Plugin version will support this
[11:06:48] <marc> moparisthebest, sounds promising :)
[11:07:20] <marc> moparisthebest, But selection of the SMS-device will need support in other clients as well, right?
[11:07:30] <moparisthebest> Now I don't have a phone with 2 Sim cards so that will be harder
[11:07:34] <moparisthebest> No
[11:07:51] <moparisthebest> All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat
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[11:08:26] <marc> moparisthebest, how do you decide the SIM card/device? phonenumber@echo-sim1 and phonenumber@echo-sim2 ?
[11:08:30] <moparisthebest> The phone knows anything sent to echo.burtrum.org or whatever goes out via SMS
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[11:21:56] <Guus> Hi all - I'm attempting to arrange for a hotel discount for the upcoming Summit and Fosdem in Brussels (February 1st - 4th). To get some kind of headcount, it'd be good if you could sign up on the wiki page if you're planning to be there: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22
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[11:27:42] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest> All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat
Why is this message duplicated in my client? Meh.
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[11:28:47] <zinid> I constantly receive duplicates
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[11:29:12] <Ge0rG> zinid: it should be filtered away by yaxim's deduplicator.
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[11:30:42] <zinid> yeah, heuristics
[11:31:01] <Ge0rG> Unfortunately, my client doesn't have a log going back 20mins, and my server doesn't log outgoing c2s stanzas. Meh.
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[11:32:01] <Ge0rG> zinid: MUC message (ID) rewriting makes heuristics a required feature.
[11:32:10] <zinid> Ge0rG, I know
[11:33:52] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why do you see different peoples messages twice though?
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[11:34:14] <Ge0rG> Ok, now this is just getting more and more weird. prosody only delivered that message ID once to my yaxim.
[11:34:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's only a single message from a single person duplicated.
[11:34:49] <Ge0rG> Maybe my MSN just rejoined the MUC, but I should get the message as part of history then.
[11:37:49] <Ge0rG> Okay, there was a 0198 reconnect just in that moment.
[11:38:00] <Ge0rG> Something fishy is going on, and I don't know what it is.
[11:39:27] <Ge0rG> Will increase logcat buffer to 16M now.
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[11:47:38] <pep.> jonasw, Ge0rG, thanks for the links! (PARS)
[11:47:41] <zinid> Ge0rG, does yaxim dump XML traffic in logcat?
[11:48:23] <Ge0rG> zinid: if you enable it, yes.
[11:48:28] <zinid> Ge0rG, nice
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[11:50:05] <jonasw> sounds like an off-by-one in the stream management handling
[11:50:33] <jonasw> reminds me of early aioxmpp's reconnect loops when a broken stanza was received. broken stanza -> exception -> disconnect stream -> resume stream management -> receive same broken stanza
[11:51:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yeah, well possible. But I know for sure that I've fixed the off-by-ones in yaxim. It was a long and complex process
[11:51:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if you close the stream, you are not allowed to resume.
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[11:52:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m not sure that the stream was closed cleanly. it’s been a while.
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[12:13:37] <marc> Ge0rG, are you fine with 'invite' and 'create-account' ad-hoc command names?
[12:14:02] <Ge0rG> marc: yeah
[12:14:19] <jonasw> what are the semantics of those commands again?
[12:14:43] <marc> jonasw, invite a user, create an account (optinal with predefined username) :)
[12:14:53] <jonasw> create an account we already have an adhoc for that
[12:14:57] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the former will create a PARS link with an "ibr" tag.
[12:15:05] <marc> latter is for admins or other privileged users
[12:15:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: do we?
[12:15:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the goal is for the admin to define the user name, and then the user can use IBR to specify their password.
[12:16:03] <marc> Ge0rG, jonasw I tink we had this exact same disucussion a couple of days ago :D
[12:16:13] <jonasw> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0133.html#add-user
[12:16:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ah okay
[12:16:23] <jonasw> ahh, so it’s invite minus PARS
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[12:16:29] <marc> I think the wording was exactly the same :D
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[12:17:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no, it's a "I define a username and send a link" thing
[12:17:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: so it's rather PARS-for-accounts
[12:17:41] <Ge0rG> jonasw: and it implies PARS between inviter and invitee
[12:18:07] <jonasw> Ge0rG, how is that different from "invite minus PARS"?
[12:18:12] <jonasw> no wait
[12:18:20] <jonasw> so create-account allows for IBR registration, but also PARS?
[12:18:24] <jonasw> what’s the difference to invite then?
[12:19:01] <marc> invite gives you the possiblity to create an account or just make server-side PARS
[12:19:13] <marc> account-creation creates an account on the server
[12:19:18] <jonasw> and create-account forces account creation?
[12:19:25] <marc> yes
[12:19:29] <jonasw> I see
[12:19:59] <marc> jonasw, any objections so far? :)
[12:20:03] <jonasw> make sure you make that distinction clear in the document and provide use cases which support that distinction
[12:20:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: create-account is for admins who want to enroll friends. invite is for users of (semi)public servers.
[12:21:16] <Ge0rG> jonasw: a server admin can use invite if they don't want to pre-define the account name
[12:21:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I don’t see why I wouldn’t use invite as an admin, too?
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[12:21:35] <Ge0rG> jonasw: however, there is no guarantee that an invite will lead to account creation
[12:21:47] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if the user already has an account, invite will merely fall-back to PARS
[12:21:53] <jonasw> win
[12:21:57] <jonasw> why wouldn’t I want that?
[12:22:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what?
[12:22:44] <Ge0rG> Sigh. Something just happened, and now my yaxim got reset.
[12:23:01] <Ge0rG> like, all-data-lost-app-reset.
[12:23:05] <jonasw> why would I want force people to create an account?
[12:23:14] <jonasw> if they already have one?
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[12:23:24] <jonasw> especially if they still could create an account with 'invite' if they wanted to
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[12:23:33] <jonasw> create-account seems to have only limitations in my eyes
[12:23:44] <jonasw> and I’m failing to see the use-case for that
[12:23:45] <marc> jonasw, if you want to ensure that set of users is on your server, for example if you don't use E2EE :D
[12:24:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's because marc insists that you want to have all your friends on your server.
[12:24:13] <jonasw> I see
[12:24:20] <jonasw> I don’t follow that argument, but okay
[12:24:37] <jonasw> I don’t care as long as both works and I don’t have to use create-account :)
[12:25:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I see create-account as a feature I can use to easily onboard my grand-aunt.
[12:25:17] <jonasw> why don’t use invite for that?
[12:25:22] <jonasw> why not use invite for that?
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[12:25:31] <jonasw> ah, because they have to choose an account name
[12:25:34] <Ge0rG> right
[12:25:47] <jonasw> but then again, clients could offer default names based on the screenname, as was discussed earlier here, IIRC
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[12:26:29] <marc> Maybe you have a company or other organization where you have to enforce that all memebers are on a "special" server. For privacy reasons, for example.
[12:26:43] <Ge0rG> marc: good point.
[12:26:49] <jonasw> indeed
[12:26:50] <Ge0rG> marc: mention it in the rationale / user-story
[12:26:52] <jonasw> yes
[12:26:52] <marc> Ge0rG, thanks!
[12:26:56] <Ge0rG> the XSF loves corporate rollouts
[12:26:57] <jonasw> that’s the kind of example I was looking for :)
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[12:27:11] <marc> Okay, good that we agree on that :) I'm happy now
[12:27:14] <jonasw> (even though corporate onboarding will probably work very different)
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[12:57:16] <marc> jonasw, yes, but this depends of how big the "organization" is
[12:58:18] <marc> s/of/on
[12:58:20] <jonasw> normally there would be some kind of single-sign-on in place and the xmppd may not even have privilegues to create an account there. but sure, there may be use-cases.
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[13:21:14] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, don't know why it was duplicated, at the time I only had conversations running so single client even
[13:22:52] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: looks like it was a yaxim bug, but we'll never find out. Sorry for bothering you.
[13:23:10] <zinid> but people already have accounts (twitter, google), why do you want to register them on your server?
[13:23:18] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, no bother, conversations has a method for guessing if a message is the same not sure if you can copy it
[13:23:27] <zinid> why we cannot use oauth, like all others do?
[13:28:29] <marc> zinid, oauth is about authorization, you still need to create an account, right?
[13:29:08] <zinid> marc, right
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[13:30:28] <marc> zinid, what's you point regarding the account creation / user invitation proposal then?
[13:30:53] <zinid> marc, you need no account creation
[13:31:03] <zinid> you can create it on the fly at first login
[13:31:30] <marc> zinid, you're talking about public servers, right?
[13:31:44] <zinid> marc, I would use it on my private server too, why not?
[13:32:19] <marc> zinid, okay, I have a private server and want somebody to join it
[13:32:35] <marc> zinid, what's your protocol flow then?
[13:32:43] <zinid> I'm not talking about invitation
[13:32:51] <zinid> this is a separate subject
[13:32:55] <Ge0rG> Step 1: troll everyone
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT!
[13:33:25] <SouL> Hahaha
[13:33:44] <zinid> Ge0rG, wow, oauth is trolling now?
[13:33:47] <marc> zinid, but we were talking about invitation
[13:34:15] <zinid> > why would I want force people to create an account?

I replied to this ^^^
[13:34:59] <Ge0rG> zinid: with oauth, you can connect to an existing account. but you can't xmpp-connect to a service not offering xmpp
[13:35:20] <zinid> what?
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[13:35:32] <Ge0rG> zinid: you could create an xmpp account by logging in with an oauth provider and using that provider as "identity verification"
[13:35:45] <zinid> so what?
[13:35:55] <Ge0rG> zinid: you can't login to twitter with an xmpp client
[13:36:02] <zinid> I can
[13:36:09] <zinid> for user this will be transparent
[13:36:35] <zinid> you choose an xmpp server, provides oauth provider and it's done
[13:37:17] <Ge0rG> zinid: so you will still create an xmpp account?
[13:37:29] <zinid> sure
[13:37:46] <zinid> in an automatic way
[13:38:41] <zinid> the point is that it's pain in ass to keep all accounts with passwords for a user
[13:39:33] <Ge0rG> zinid: so instead of a password, you use an oauth token issued by Faceoogle?
[13:39:41] <zinid> yes
[13:39:53] <zinid> or how it's called, I don't remember details
[13:40:35] <zinid> you can fetch address book and send invites by the way
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[16:25:58] <mathieui> https://help.aol.com/articles/aim-discontinued RIP.
[16:28:10] <pep.> What a shame
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[16:28:30] <edhelas> time to replace it with another protocol
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[16:29:55] <mathieui> there’s nothing to replace
[16:30:02] <mathieui> nobody was using it
[16:30:44] <pep.> "Can I still use AIM between now and December 15?", *now* being Dec 11th.
[16:30:45] <Ge0rG> more users than XMPP? :P
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[16:31:19] <Ge0rG> But ICQ is still running?
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[16:47:32] <ThurahT> by now I've helped ~15 people to convert to xmpp. And I never even had AIM.. : )
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[16:50:37] <Ge0rG> ThurahT: are they all on jabber.org? :D
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[16:50:51] <ThurahT> yeah, I wanted only the best for them
[16:51:02] <SamWhited> not sure if…
[16:51:09] <ThurahT> : )
[16:51:32] *Ge0rG smells sarcasm
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[16:52:12] <jonasw> when the news broke that AIM was about to be discontinued, I suggested to set up an XMPP domain which focuses on easy conversion from AIM
[16:52:53] <jonasw> nobody had the time though :)
[16:53:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: such an irony
[16:53:16] <ThurahT> I had a few who might have needed that. But eventually they caught on setting servers up.
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[20:02:21] <zinid> jonasw, don't be sad, that was pointless anyway, everyone is "converted" into whatsapp 🙂
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