Sunday, December 17, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:45:28] <marc> Is there a XML command list for XEPs?
[10:46:02] <jonasw> marc, I don’t understand the question
[10:46:21] <marc> jonasw, commands like <strong>
[10:46:24] <marc> "commands"
[10:46:25] <jonasw> ah
[10:46:26] <marc> tags
[10:46:28] <jonasw> you can read xep.dtd
[10:47:03] <jonasw> (well, if you can read DTDs ;))
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[10:47:11] <marc> Yeah, a bit
[10:47:21] <jonasw> but that’s the normative reference for things which currently work in XEPs, as everything gets validated against that IIRC
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[10:48:53] <marc> I need a tag to make an indention like a list but without bullet points
[10:49:00] <jonasw> I don’t think we have that
[10:49:04] <jonasw> why?
[10:49:06] <marc> Argh :D
[10:49:17] <marc> Because it would look nice ;)
[10:49:22] <jonasw> what are you going to use it for?
[10:50:02] <marc> To "highlight" something
[10:50:07] <marc> Hard to describe ;)
[10:50:17] <jonasw> would be useful if you could be more specific
[10:50:22] <jonasw> there are example blocks for examples which may be useful
[10:50:36] <marc> Yeah, but it's an URI and not XML
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[10:50:44] <jonasw> does that matter?
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[10:50:53] <jonasw> I don’t think that examples necessarily have to be XML
[10:51:09] <marc> Yeah, but the example block is very big for just a single line :D
[10:51:20] <jonasw> maybe just a code block without example?
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[10:51:37] <jonasw> like I used for the test vectors here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#algorithm-example-simple
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[10:53:25] <marc> Hm, somehow it looks strange
[10:53:28] <marc> Doesn't matter for now :D
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[10:54:03] <marc> jonasw, Can I just copy paste from other XEPs?
[10:54:18] <jonasw> what do you want to copy&paste?
[10:54:30] <jonasw> citing would be more appropriate in many cases (use &xep1234; for that)
[10:55:18] <marc> Puh, but this would make reading this XEP very stressful
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[10:55:48] <jonasw> the issue would be to keep things up-to-date if wording in the referenced xep changes, so I’d discourage that.
[10:55:49] <marc> I would copy some parts from https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html#link_transmission for example
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[10:58:54] <jonasw> that is a prime example where quoting would be more appropriate
[10:59:05] <jonasw> that is a prime example where citing would be more appropriate
[10:59:57] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I've heard that
[11:00:12] <jonasw> Ge0rG, what’dya hear?
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[11:02:36] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you criticizing my XEP :P
[11:02:40] <jonasw> do I?
[11:02:46] <jonasw> am I?
[11:02:50] <jonasw> I can’t english today.
[11:03:25] <Ge0rG> I can't today.
[11:03:48] <marc> Ge0rG, what do you think? quoting or copying?
[11:04:40] <Ge0rG> marc: what do you want to present? the returned URL?
[11:05:26] <marc> Ge0rG, provide information about the landing page
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[11:06:10] <Ge0rG> marc: <div class="example"> :P
[11:06:33] <jonasw> I think you are confused.
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[11:06:41] <marc> :D
[11:06:42] <Ge0rG> who? me?
[11:06:44] <jonasw> yeah
[11:06:45] <marc> Ge0rG, yes
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[11:07:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the current question is about whether marc shall copy the linked section from your XEP or rather cite it.
[11:07:01] <marc> Probably you should read the backlog once again :D
[11:07:06] <jonasw> I think citing is more appropriate
[11:07:17] <jonasw> this isn’t about markup anymore, even though I admit I thought that too at first.
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[11:08:36] <Ge0rG> marc: I'm not opposed to you copying my text where it makes sense, but I think it would be better to write "An out-of-band presentation of the xmpp: URI according to XEP-0379 §3.3 [...] Example here: [...]"
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[11:09:13] <jonasw> I’d not go as far as "according to", but "like for example described in", because it’s not going to be normative
[11:09:15] <jonasw> (is it?)
[11:09:45] <marc> Well, I'll just copy it for now because I also changed some parts
[11:10:17] <marc> We can remove redundant parts later
[11:10:19] <marc> Okay?
[11:10:20] <Ge0rG> marc: if you change parts, please PR them against the original
[11:10:33] <Ge0rG> marc: nothing is worse than a slightly deviating copy.
[11:10:50] <marc> Ge0rG, well, we have to discuss my changes anyway
[11:11:02] <marc> Ge0rG, so let's do this before I PR something ;)
[11:11:09] <jonasw> I agree with Ge0rG
[11:11:18] <Ge0rG> marc: you can PR your new wording against 379 before copy&pasting from it.
[11:11:22] <jonasw> especially if the XEPs are going to interop ...
[11:11:34] <Ge0rG> marc: actually, what you just wrote made me change my mind. PLEASE DO NOT COPY&PASTE.
[11:11:43] <Ge0rG> Especially not COPY&PASTE&CHANGE.
[11:11:49] <marc> Ge0rG, :D
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[11:12:49] <marc> Ge0rG, I would recommend that you state something like "the landing page SHOULD contain the XMPP URI in the form of a QR code" in your XEP
[11:13:52] <jonasw> s/recommend/RECOMMEND/? :)
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[11:14:10] <marc> :D
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[11:16:12] <marc> It is possible to reference to a specific section of a XEP?
[11:17:27] <Ge0rG> marc: if you open the link on your mobile device, how is a qr code going to help?
[11:18:10] <marc> Ge0rG, if _you_ open it on your mobile phone it doesn't help
[11:18:48] <marc> But if you open it on a desktop client it helps
[11:19:09] <marc> Or I open it because I generated it and my client doesn't generate QR codes for some reason
[11:19:46] <marc> desktop client -> desktop e-mail client or something like that
[11:20:10] <Ge0rG> marc: is there an xep that defines qr codes for xmpp?
[11:20:22] <marc> Ge0rG, just encode the XMPP URI
[11:20:26] <marc> works like a charm
[11:20:47] <Ge0rG> marc: not what I asked.
[11:20:58] <marc> Ge0rG, okay: no :P
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[11:21:14] <Ge0rG> marc: so you want me to create a precedent?
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[11:22:27] <marc> Ge0rG, I don't know if we need a XEP for it
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[11:23:01] <marc> Ge0rG, you could also ask the other way around: how to use the invitation fpr your mobile device if the invitee opens the invitation on a desktop client and you only have a XMPP URI link
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[11:24:10] <marc> Ge0rG, we could also write a short XEP but I don't know if that's worth the effort
[11:24:16] <Ge0rG> marc: yes, a qr code is just the right thing there. The question is whether the developer of the landing page can make that leap without text in the xep
[11:24:56] <Ge0rG> marc: https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/issues/6
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[11:25:47] <marc> Ge0rG, nice, you should add this idea to the XEP now :D
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[11:27:06] <marc> Ge0rG, It's good that we agree at least on some points :>
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[11:47:14] <marc> jonasw, Ge0rG do you think it is possible to make HTTPS mandatory for the landing page?
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[11:47:47] <Ge0rG> marc: yes, but does that need to be written in the XEP?
[11:47:49] <jonasw> it sure is possible, the question is whether it is reasonable :)
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[11:48:41] <marc> Ge0rG, if I don't write it in the XEP it is not required for the implementation, is it? :D
[11:49:19] <marc> It's pretty easy nowdays to deploy HTTPS
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[12:06:12] <marc> Ge0rG, current XEP version: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xeps/user-invite.html
[12:06:23] <marc> Please don't comment on minor issues
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[12:10:03] <SouL> Ge0rG, weren't you the guy doing a XEP like this? Or is something else?
[12:10:32] <Ge0rG> marc: it's still missing the two different user stories.
[12:10:50] <Ge0rG> SouL: [xep 0379]
[12:11:11] <Ge0rG> Sigh. I'll never get the bots right.
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[12:13:45] <Ge0rG> marc: I would tend to reuse the `preauth` element
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[12:16:44] <marc> Ge0rG, yep, I'm aware of the user stories
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[12:17:11] <marc> Ge0rG, yeah, we have to discuss the URI elements / URI format
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[12:18:34] <marc> Ge0rG, other comments or objections?
[12:18:35] <Ge0rG> marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?;preauth=TOKEN;ibr`
[12:19:09] <Ge0rG> marc: it's a pretty rough state, so I'm not sure what parts I should comment about
[12:19:12] <marc> Ge0rG, "?;" doesn't make sense
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[12:19:43] <Ge0rG> marc: it does, if you want to explicitly say it's an empty action.
[12:19:48] <marc> Ge0rG, structuring, for example
[12:20:08] <marc> Ge0rG, no, because you assume that there is an ordering for query elements but that's not the case IMO
[12:20:42] <Ge0rG> marc: if there is no ordering, what's the action?
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[12:21:23] <marc> Ge0rG, an element without value which is _defined_ somewhere as action I would say
[12:22:02] <Ge0rG> marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?preauth=TOKEN;ibr` then
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[12:22:46] <marc> Ge0rG, for example, the "?register" action would make sense for the "account creation" use case
[12:22:57] <Ge0rG> marc: it would be great to have decision trees
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[12:23:57] <marc> Ge0rG, a set of defined actions is good starting point for decision trees, isn't it? :)
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[12:24:04] <Ge0rG> marc: for account creation it will be something like `xmpp:invitee@server?register;preauth=TOKEN`
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[12:24:13] <marc> Ge0rG, +1
[12:24:39] <marc> xmpp://server?register;preauth=TOKEN
[12:24:49] <marc> oh no
[12:25:08] <Ge0rG> marc: the decisions are, for the inviter: force the user to join my server, or let them just add me?
[12:25:26] <Ge0rG> marc: for the invitee: do I have an xmpp account already?
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[12:25:52] <marc> yes
[12:26:54] <marc> But it would also be nice the have decision trees for URIs in general to provide the same UX in all clients
[12:26:58] <Ge0rG> marc: this needs to be written down in the XEP, with according recommendations for client behavior
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[12:29:08] <marc> yes
[12:29:34] <marc> Ge0rG, btw, I would add the possibility to disable mutual roster subscription for account creation
[12:29:48] <marc> I think it makes sense for the account creation use case
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[12:30:25] <Ge0rG> marc: I think you are making this more and more complex
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[12:30:41] <Ge0rG> marc: there are many ways to add a user already
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[12:31:05] <marc> Ge0rG, add a user = account creation?
[12:31:52] <marc> Ge0rG, it doesn't become more complex for the clients
[12:32:06] <Ge0rG> marc: it becomes more complex for the user
[12:32:17] <marc> Ge0rG, that's an admin thing not end-user
[12:32:28] <Ge0rG> marc: but yeah, it makes sense to add a flag
[12:32:28] <marc> Ge0rG, so we don't have to care about "UX"
[12:34:06] <jonasw> I am worried by the quotes around "UX".
[12:34:12] <Ge0rG> marc: what about "AX"?
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[12:34:42] <marc> Ge0rG, As an admin I like options :p
[12:34:45] <Ge0rG> 😁
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[12:36:00] <marc> jonasw, because were're not talking about end-users here
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[12:37:03] <Ge0rG> Admins are users as well
[12:37:22] <marc> Yes that's why I said end-users
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[22:53:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[22:58:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[23:05:52] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
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[23:06:31] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:10:56] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[23:14:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[23:18:09] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[23:21:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:38:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:53:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"