Tuesday, December 19, 2017
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:56:21] <daniel> jonasw, could you hit the the merge button on my protoxep when you have a minute so it makes the 24h notice window for the council agenda tomorrow?
[07:57:23] <jonasw> sure!
[07:57:29] <jonasw> didn’t see the mail, sorry
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[08:10:30] <daniel> jonasw: thank you
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[08:56:27] <jonasw> daniel, mail sent :-)
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[12:54:26] *** lumi has joined the room
[12:58:34] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:58:39] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[12:59:11] *** Syndace has joined the room
[12:59:43] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:01:04] *** remko shows as "online"
[13:04:53] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[13:05:00] *** Kev shows as "away"
[13:05:30] *** jcbrand shows as "online"
[13:07:15] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:07:22] *** jcbrand has left the room
[13:07:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[13:07:59] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:08:05] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:09:11] *** jcbrand shows as "online"
[13:09:11] *** jcbrand has left the room
[13:09:37] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:10:08] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:10:12] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:10:43] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:11:48] *** jcbrand has left the room
[13:12:11] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[13:12:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:13:00] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:15:38] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[13:15:45] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:15:54] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[13:16:19] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:18:21] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[13:18:28] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[13:24:29] *** daniel has left the room
[13:25:10] *** @Alacer has left the room
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[13:25:21] *** efrit has left the room
[13:25:38] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[13:25:49] *** @Alacer has left the room
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[13:26:54] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[13:28:02] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:30:32] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[13:31:31] *** mrkiko has left the room
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[13:32:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[13:33:30] *** Guus has left the room
[13:33:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:33:45] *** pep. shows as "online"
[13:35:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:40:51] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:41:42] *** pep. has left the room
[13:41:48] *** pep. shows as "online"
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[13:46:41] *** SouL has left the room
[13:47:05] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:48:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[13:52:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:52:39] *** SouL has left the room
[13:55:52] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:57:13] *** SouL shows as "online"
[13:57:26] *** lumi has left the room
[14:00:21] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:01:22] *** Tobias has left the room
[14:01:56] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:05:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:05:47] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:05:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:05:55] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:07:06] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[14:10:50] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:13:26] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:16:42] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:17:57] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:19:28] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:19:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:23:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:30:50] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:31:21] *** lovetox has joined the room
[14:32:40] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:33:53] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[14:34:20] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[14:34:54] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:36:48] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:37:49] *** daniel has left the room
[14:37:55] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:39:58] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:40:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:41:56] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:45:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:45:54] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:46:05] *** SouL has left the room
[14:46:25] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:46:52] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:47:12] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:47:22] *** SouL has left the room
[14:47:25] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:47:56] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:47:59] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:49:01] *** Syndace has left the room
[14:49:08] *** Syndace has joined the room
[14:50:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:52:40] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:53:18] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[14:54:15] *** SamWhited has left the room
[14:54:26] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:55:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:56:01] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:57:54] *** SouL shows as "online"
[14:57:56] *** Guus has left the room
[14:57:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:04:16] *** SouL has left the room
[15:04:59] *** jcbrand has left the room
[15:09:30] *** Guus has left the room
[15:10:08] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:11:24] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[15:11:35] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:12:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:12:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[15:15:00] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[15:15:30] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:16:09] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:17:25] *** sonny shows as "away"
[15:17:26] *** matlag has left the room
[15:17:27] *** matlag has joined the room
[15:17:42] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:18:06] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:18:33] *** sonny shows as "online"
[15:19:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:20:20] *** matlag shows as "online"
[15:22:54] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[15:26:06] *** pep. has left the room
[15:27:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[15:33:27] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:33:43] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:34:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:38:37] *** SouL has left the room
[15:43:46] *** SouL has left the room
[15:45:00] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:47:04] *** efrit has joined the room
[15:47:33] *** Holger has left the room
[15:47:54] *** Holger shows as "online"
[15:50:00] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[15:50:17] *** SouL has left the room
[15:51:11] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:54:35] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[15:55:31] *** efrit has left the room
[15:55:41] *** efrit has joined the room
[15:56:00] *** SouL shows as "online"
[15:57:10] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:58:08] *** zinid has left the room
[15:58:09] *** zinid shows as "online"
[15:59:36] *** sonny has left the room
[15:59:38] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:05:46] *** SouL shows as "online"
[16:09:54] *** sonny has left the room
[16:10:06] *** sonny shows as "online"
[16:10:32] *** matlag has left the room
[16:12:39] *** SouL shows as "online"
[16:13:27] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:13:53] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Leave"
[16:15:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:16:09] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:16:13] *** matlag shows as "online"
[16:18:49] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:19:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:22:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:24:15] *** remko shows as "away"
[16:25:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:27:10] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:27:20] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:28:29] *** SouL shows as "online"
[16:29:00] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[16:31:15] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:31:38] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:32:25] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:33:10] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:38:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:39:40] *** Guus has left the room
[16:39:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:44:15] *** SouL shows as "online"
[16:44:38] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[16:47:57] *** pep. shows as "online"
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[16:52:36] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[17:00:16] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:04:21] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:06:21] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:06:56] *** daniel has left the room
[17:07:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:07:12] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:07:38] *** SouL has left the room
[17:07:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:09:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:09:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:15:30] *** sonny shows as "online"
[17:16:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:16:38] *** daniel has left the room
[17:16:47] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:19:42] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[17:22:03] *** daniel has left the room
[17:22:10] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:22:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:22:32] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[17:22:46] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:22:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[17:23:20] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[17:23:23] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:26:28] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:26:45] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:27:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:28:03] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:28:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:29:15] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:29:57] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[17:31:08] *** SouL has left the room
[17:31:23] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[17:33:37] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:37:38] *** SouL has left the room
[17:41:09] <pep.> What's the difference between {xep 0363} and {xep 0370}? Both can do more or less the same thing, right? 0370 doesn't require a server component but it would be feasible as well I think
[17:41:12] <Bunneh> pep.: Multiple matches:
Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Ad-Hoc Commands https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html
Dialback Key Generation and Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0185.html
Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
Blocking Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html
Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0395.html
Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0261.html
A Transport for Initiating and Negotiating Sessions (TINS) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0111.html
In-Band Real Time Text https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html
Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html
Out-of-Band Stream Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/outofband.html
File Repository and Sharing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0214.html
Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-ibb.html
Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sift.html
Mandatory-to-Implement Technologies for Jingle RTP Sessions https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-rtp-mti.html
Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/spim.html
Field Standardization for Data Forms https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html
The /me Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0245.html
Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html
In-Band Bytestreams https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html
XMPP Date and Time Profiles https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0082.html
In-Band Registration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html
Unique and Stable Stanza IDs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html
Best Practices for Handling Offline Messages https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html
Extensible In-Band Registration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html
Incident Handling https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html
Impact of TLS and DNSSEC on Dialback https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0344.html
Form Discovery and Publishing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0346.html
Zero Handshake Server to Server Protocol https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0361.html
Out-of-Band Stream Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0265.html
Invisible Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html
Best Practices for Roster and Subscription Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0162.html
Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/cap.html
[17:41:25] <pep.> Wat
[17:41:35] <Zash> Nice
[17:42:32] <Zash> Maybe it did a search for "0363} and {xep 0370" and thought you really wanted all XEPs with the word "and" anywhere in them
[17:42:55] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:42:56] <Zash> Two {} commands at the same time don't work anyways
[17:42:59] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:43:13] <pep.> :(
[17:43:16] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:43:23] <pep.> -xep 0363
[17:43:23] <Bunneh> pep.: HTTP File Upload (Standards Track, Proposed, 2017-12-03)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
[17:43:24] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:43:30] <pep.> -xep 0370
[17:43:30] <Bunneh> pep.: Jingle HTTP Transport Method (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0370.html
[17:46:22] <Zash> pep.: compare {xep 65} and ...
[17:46:22] <Bunneh> pep.: SOCKS5 Bytestreams (Standards Track, Draft, 2015-09-17)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0065.html
[17:46:46] <Zash> -xep 260
[17:46:46] <Bunneh> Zash: Jingle SOCKS5 Bytestreams Transport Method (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-05-17)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0260.html
[17:46:57] <pep.> Heh
[17:47:05] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:47:14] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[17:47:19] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:47:20] <Zash> Holy carp, do we have a bazillion XEPs mentioning "jingle"
[17:47:20] <pep.> Is there any implementation of 0370?
[17:47:24] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:48:55] <zinid> we need no carpy jingle
[17:49:43] *** lumi has joined the room
[17:51:51] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:53:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:53:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:53:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:55:25] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:56:03] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:56:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:56:10] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:56:21] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:56:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:56:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:57:00] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:57:33] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:58:54] *** SouL shows as "online"
[17:59:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:59:54] *** sonny shows as "online"
[17:59:54] *** sonny shows as "online"
[18:00:28] *** sonny has left the room
[18:02:12] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:02:53] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[18:04:11] *** SouL shows as "online"
[18:04:31] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[18:05:21] *** SouL has left the room
[18:06:23] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:07:02] *** sonny shows as "online"
[18:07:03] *** sonny shows as "online"
[18:07:45] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:08:54] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:09:07] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:10:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:10:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[18:10:23] *** waqas has left the room
[18:10:54] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[18:12:15] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:14:14] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:14:38] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:14:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:14:47] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[18:14:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:15:13] *** SouL shows as "online"
[18:17:03] *** sonny shows as "away"
[18:17:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:17:07] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:17:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:17:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:19:10] <marc> Ge0rG, what is the input field on your easy-xmpp-invitation website for?
[18:19:37] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:19:44] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:19:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:20:40] *** sonny shows as "online"
[18:21:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:21:29] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:22:44] *** SouL shows as "online"
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[18:23:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:24:13] *** sonny has joined the room
[18:33:11] *** SouL shows as "online"
[18:37:13] *** SouL shows as "online"
[18:37:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:38:24] *** zinid has left the room
[18:38:27] *** zinid shows as "online"
[18:38:53] *** SouL has left the room
[18:40:18] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:43:07] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[18:43:11] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:44:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:46:37] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[18:46:37] *** uc has left the room
[18:46:46] *** remko shows as "online"
[18:46:58] *** remko has left the room
[18:47:53] *** uc has joined the room
[18:47:59] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[18:48:44] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[18:49:03] *** Guus has left the room
[18:49:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:54:30] *** Guus has left the room
[18:56:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:05:39] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:06:22] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:06:34] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:06:38] *** Syndace has joined the room
[19:07:47] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[19:07:52] *** lumi has joined the room
[19:09:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:10:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:13:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:14:13] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[19:18:29] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[19:18:42] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[19:24:04] *** SouL has left the room
[19:24:16] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[19:25:09] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:26:16] *** McKael shows as "online"
[19:26:36] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:27:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:30:34] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:30:37] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[19:33:21] *** SouL has left the room
[19:33:33] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[19:34:08] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:36:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:36:32] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:39:21] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[20:48:22] <edhelas> I think that we have to start to work on spam issues seriously
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[20:48:51] <edhelas> we have to see how people are spamming XMPP today on a wider scale than just blocking a type of message
[20:49:05] <Link Mauve> Oh, is it a new wave?
[20:49:15] <edhelas> Link Mauve it basically never stopped
[20:49:30] <edhelas> lena2521@jabber.uznam.net.pl
[20:49:34] <Alex> ya, SPAM is getting horrible, in the mood of shutting down my XMPP clients :(
[20:49:39] <Link Mauve> Might be our anti-spam solution working great then. ^^
[20:49:41] <edhelas> madaline2784@i0i0.de
[20:49:46] <edhelas> for now
[20:50:01] <Link Mauve> edhelas, it brings nothing to ban individual JIDs to the network.
[20:50:12] <edhelas> it's super easy to create a new host on your XMPP serve, put a let's encrypt certificate on it and start spamming the others
[20:50:18] <edhelas> yes I know
[20:50:34] <Link Mauve> Alex, if you’re running Prosody, https://yaxim.org/blog/2017/12/12/spam-reduction-on-yax-dot-im/
[20:50:35] <edhelas> what I'd like to do is have a look at all those domains, see if they are pointing to same IPs
[20:50:53] <edhelas> and basically figure out from where those SPAMs are coming
[20:51:16] <edhelas> but we seriously have to take the problem
[20:51:26] <Link Mauve> edhelas, pretty sure most spammers are currently relying on insecure public infrastructure rather than using their own servers.
[20:51:50] <Link Mauve> edhelas, just read that blog article, that’s how we’ve been handling it at JabberFR for the past year or so.
[20:51:51] <edhelas> that's not exactly true
[20:52:05] <edhelas> I have more spam comming from new domains than known ones
[20:52:22] <MattJ> edhelas, can you share some example domains?
[20:52:28] <edhelas> well I just did
[20:52:49] <MattJ> There are multiple spammers, they use different techniques, and not everyone will have their JID on every spammer's list
[20:52:52] <edhelas> I can give you a longer list, give me a bit of time
[20:53:01] <Link Mauve> edhelas, blocking by domain is almost never a solution.
[20:53:10] <MattJ> So while Link Mauve and I receive spam from existing domains, maybe you experience it more from a spammer who uses new domains
[20:53:20] <edhelas> MattJ that's what i'm saying, we have different kind of spams, we have to differentiate them and see how we can block them
[20:53:59] <Link Mauve> I should log all of the spams I’m blocking, to get better statistics.
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[20:54:44] <edhelas> well hopefully I have MAM and Movim cache for that
[20:55:08] <edhelas> also, again, for now we have simple SPAM messages
[20:55:11] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, I’m interested in your statistics module btw.
[20:55:18] <edhelas> I start to have roster subscriptions request from spammers
[20:55:31] <edhelas> and the next kind will be Pubsub publications I think
[20:55:47] <edhelas> so I'm already talking with ejabberd dev to put quotas and limitations on Pubsub
[20:55:59] <Link Mauve> Wouldn’t reach nearly as many people as plain messages.
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[20:58:19] <daniel> > and the next kind will be Pubsub publications I think
lol that's unnecessarily complex. normal messages will reach people just fine
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[20:59:55] <edhelas> I'm deleting one or two accounts of users that are publishing articles with links to weird urls and warez places :)
[21:00:21] <edhelas> but yes this is pretty long term
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[21:02:56] <daniel> also; while i'm not denying that spam is a problem it is not really for the average user; normal users don't publish their jid everywhere. the lists the spammers are using are (in parts) very old. while *we* see a lot of spam normal users don't
[21:04:04] <edhelas> yes
[21:04:11] <daniel> yes it creates load and servers and requires work from sys admins; but we shouldn't necessarily let this distract us from other problems
[21:04:48] <daniel> especially since normal users - and even we - are not the target audience of the spam
[21:05:12] <daniel> we don't speak russian and we don't usually buy stolen credit cards
[21:06:05] <daniel> ok; some of us speak russian…
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[21:08:27] <edhelas> ok I've compiled a list of JID that are sending messages to Movim users without been in their roster
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[21:18:12] <edhelas> some statistics per server :)
[21:18:18] <edhelas> https://movim.eu:5280/upload/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/zGvBJ61KKHv40YHUDv4obvA5SKUlfxBgfzCH3V3e/spam_servers.txt
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[21:40:47] <Ge0rG> marc: it's not an input field, it's a text selection field where you can copy the xmpp: URI from
[21:41:15] <marc> Ge0rG, https://projects.zapb.de/tmp/easy-xmpp-invitation/
[21:41:18] <marc> I can edit the xmpp URI
[21:41:29] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: thank you for sharing a private link, btw.
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[21:41:44] <Link Mauve> Oh, I saw it in public somewhere today, sorry. :x
[21:42:13] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: it isn't published yet, and I'm in the middle of refactoring it into a technical post on my personal blog and a high-level post on yaxim.org
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[21:42:28] <Ge0rG> which technically means I've stopped working on it for now ;)
[21:42:35] <Link Mauve> I didn’t see any mention that it was a draft or anything either.
[21:42:50] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I'm sure I wrote it's a draft where I posted it.
[21:42:56] <Link Mauve> Damn…
[21:43:02] <Link Mauve> Sorry. :x
[21:43:19] <Link Mauve> You can still yank it out probably.
[21:43:24] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I'm sure nobody will notice
[21:43:35] <Ge0rG> let's hope it won't get picked up. yet.
[21:44:25] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: but now you made me curious, you are not a member of the places I posted it in. :P
[21:44:48] <Link Mauve> I’m already looking for the place I got it from. ^^
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[21:46:45] <Ge0rG> Sigh. advert364@yax.im - 1600 outgoing subscription requests.
[21:46:57] <Ge0rG> MattJ: can we have presence blocking in mod_firewall please?
[21:47:10] <MattJ> "presence blocking"?
[21:47:20] <MattJ> KIND: presence
DROP.
[21:47:24] <MattJ> Presence. Blocked.
[21:47:34] <MattJ> XMP
[21:48:05] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm sure users will love this.
[21:48:25] <MattJ> They'll love the simplicity, which is good for UX
[21:48:28] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I want to block/revert presence subscriptions from accounts that are spamming.
[21:48:46] <MattJ> Incoming or outgoing?
[21:48:51] <Ge0rG> MattJ: both
[21:49:10] <Ge0rG> I've deleted some 2000 spammer accounts in the last weeks
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[21:50:01] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: the stats for that blog non-post I gathered by grepping prosody.log for JIDs captured by mod_firewall spammer.pfw
[21:50:11] <MattJ> I don't think a server should allow a new account to *have* 1600 open subscription requests
[21:50:21] <Ge0rG> MattJ: that's a great idea.
[21:50:46] <Link Mauve> Oh.
[21:51:31] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: not sure if this will help you much. `zgrep -ho 'spam:.*message.*' /var/log/prosody/prosody.log*|grep -ho "from='[a-z0-9._-]*@[^']*'" > 2017-12-13-alljids.txt`
[21:52:01] <Ge0rG> MattJ: the other spam accounts I deleted have between 10 and 200 pending subscriptions. Which is still too much.
[21:52:13] <edhelas> Ge0rG you have IBR ?
[21:52:27] <Ge0rG> MattJ: but the worst thing is that I'm getting a dozen a subscriptions a day.
[21:52:28] <Ge0rG> edhelas: yes
[21:52:52] <edhelas> well then you know where they are coming from
[21:53:54] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, it’s super weird, I can’t find any mention of this blog post in my logs before I posted it. oO
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[21:54:03] <edhelas> on my side I'm starting to blacklist list of domains for s2s
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[21:54:11] <Ge0rG> edhelas: from Tor and open proxies
[21:54:30] <pep.> wut, is that url private? it seems awfully public to me and I've seen it around already
[21:54:39] <Zash> Ge0rG: Maybe it would be clearer to say you wanna retract presence subscription requests from mod_firewall
[21:55:12] <Ge0rG> Zash: yes, that's exactly what I want. I'm sure I asked for that already one or two times
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[21:55:39] <Ge0rG> pep.: I can't imagine how it made the rounds, or where
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[21:55:53] <pep.> the spam reduction article right?
[21:55:54] <Zash> I thought I saw you ask for "blocking"
[21:56:05] <pep.> I'm confused
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[21:56:31] <Ge0rG> Zash: to block them I need to know they are spammers before they send their spam
[21:56:31] <Link Mauve> Maybe it would be simpler by writing another module, that would hook into the event fired by mod_firewall on someone being flagged as a spammer, and then proceed to remove its presence subscription.
[21:57:43] <Link Mauve> pep., do you remember where you saw it?
[21:57:51] <Link Mauve> Because grep doesn’t help. :/
[21:57:59] <Ge0rG> Zash: ideally it should delay incoming subscriptions for a minute and just discard them if the user sends incoming spam
[21:58:23] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, one second would be enough currently.
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[21:58:51] <Ge0rG> So kind of like a bastard of mod_smacks and mod_csi_pump
[21:58:52] <Zash> Hm, that sounds a bit tricky for mod_firewall?
[21:59:15] <Zash> Or? What sayeth MattJ?
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[21:59:54] <MattJ> Some kind of tarpit has always been on my mind for mod_firewall, but it is indeed tricky
[22:00:03] <Ge0rG> I'm okay with a separate module if it helps tame subscription spam
[22:00:09] <pep.> Ah, hmm, no I've never read it. Dec 12th 2017
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[22:02:06] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, could you have used an URL shortener?
[22:02:11] <edhelas> is it risky to publish publicly my list of blacklisted s2s servers ?
[22:02:28] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I don't think so
[22:02:43] <edhelas> I'd like to be transparent regarding my configuration
[22:02:49] <Link Mauve> edhelas, it’s a good thing, it will allow them to start the process to get un-blacklisted.
[22:03:14] <pep.> edhelas, might also be nice to send a message to the contact address of that server when you blacklist it
[22:03:23] <Link Mauve> Indeed.
[22:03:38] <edhelas> meh
[22:03:54] <pep.> why?
[22:04:38] <pep.> Of course you can automate that
[22:05:54] <edhelas> step by step :)
[22:05:59] <edhelas> first publish the list
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[22:08:09] <Ge0rG> MattJ: currently I'm actively monitoring prosody.log for outgoing spam, listing all accounts registered from the same ip as the perpetrator, checking whether any of them have proper roster subscriptions and deleting all that look like spammers.
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[22:09:54] <Ge0rG> I've automated most of the steps so it boils down to copying a JID and a list of user:delete commands, but the monitoring itself is tedious and in theory easy to automate
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[22:10:00] <MattJ> To automate that, I'd fire an event from the firewall "reject spam" chain, and just handle the rest in a module
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[22:10:37] <MattJ> At least log the IP to a separate file
[22:10:39] <Ge0rG> MattJ: yes, it would help to have a quarantine flag on accounts that could be set this way
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[22:10:52] <MattJ> Hmm
[22:11:06] <Ge0rG> I've pulled a number for that one recently
[22:12:12] <Ge0rG> MattJ: but none of this solves the incoming subscriptions problem
[22:12:34] <Ge0rG> It merely reduces the outgoing subscriptions problem, slightly
[22:12:51] <Ge0rG> As I said, I've deleted around 2k accounts so far.
[22:13:33] <MattJ> Automatically rejecting a pending incoming subscription should be pretty straightforward to add as an action
[22:13:52] <Ge0rG> And one real user, by accident. Which is why I want a quarantine flag that's less terminal than a deletion
[22:14:00] <MattJ> Any "hold the stanza for X seconds/minutes" is full of performance and correctness problems
[22:14:58] <Ge0rG> MattJ: yes, I know. But holding a stanza long enough to check the next stanza from the same JID might actually work without melting the server
[22:15:21] <MattJ> We had a lot of discussion about this when you first had the idea
[22:15:33] <MattJ> Nice idea, but the spammer only has to wait N+1 seconds
[22:15:43] <MattJ> and they have plenty of time on their hands
[22:15:54] <Ge0rG> MattJ: maybe they do, maybe not.
[22:16:11] <MattJ> Whatever you choose for N, they can wait longer, and as you increase N you're going to effectively open yourself up to DoS attacks
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[22:16:35] <Ge0rG> Greylisting has turned out to work exceptionally well for email
[22:17:16] <Ge0rG> MattJ: besides, even if they wait, they won't get past the spam filter, so they have no incentive to modify their code
[22:17:54] <MattJ> What's their incentive for sending the subscription request in the first place?
[22:18:28] <MattJ> btw, I don't see anything about your account quarantine flag: https://prosody.im/issues/?q=state%3Dopen+firewall
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[22:18:30] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I suppose it's too trick dumb clients / servers to accept the following message
[22:19:05] <Ge0rG> MattJ: https://prosody.im/issues/1057
[22:19:48] <Ge0rG> MattJ: my firewall blocks all spam messages anyway, so they won't gain anything by waiting longer
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[22:25:18] <Ge0rG> MattJ: please feel free to suggest a different method to mitigate the incoming subscriptions.
[22:25:38] <MattJ> I think we ultimately ended up at UI changes on the clients when we last discussed this
[22:25:53] <MattJ> That is, a subscription request should not be "noisy"
[22:25:55] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I would accept a subscription denial from the firewall as a first step.
[22:26:06] <MattJ> Yes, that can be done
[22:26:31] <Ge0rG> MattJ: except that we haven't implemented anything after the discussion, and are repeating it now.
[22:27:37] <MattJ> I'll get you your account flagging thing, which will at least help to improve your current process
[22:27:56] <MattJ> and then I'll get you automated rejection/retraction of subscription requests
[22:28:08] <Ge0rG> MattJ: thanks, that's awesome!
[22:28:16] <MattJ> The tarpit thing may happen one day, or it may never happen
[22:28:23] <MattJ> It's a nice idea with too many practical issues
[22:29:49] <Ge0rG> MattJ: what about making the flagging depend on the number of roster items the user has? I.e. when pending >(to+both)
[22:29:54] <MattJ> Simply because you have to queue every stanza for the same destination JID following a match, and they can send to an unbounded number of destination JIDs
[22:30:38] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm sure we can also stop incoming mass subscriptions from the same JID
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[22:30:50] <Ge0rG> Just not from the same server...
[22:30:51] <MattJ> Ge0rG, they'll just add bot accounts to bot accounts rosters
[22:30:57] <Ge0rG> MattJ: maybe
[22:31:40] <Ge0rG> MattJ: but yes, das things first please.
[22:31:55] *Ge0rG is leaving for the night now. CU
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[22:32:51] <MattJ> Good night
[22:34:57] <Ge0rG> s/das/easy/ it's too late for auto completion
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