Thursday, January 04, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[14:30:43] <ralphm> Hi all
[14:30:51] <MattJ> Hey
[14:31:04] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:31:13] <Ge0rG> What? End of Meeting?
[14:31:16] <ralphm> 0. Welcome and agenda
[14:31:28] <ralphm> Who do we have?
[14:31:38] <MattJ> I'm here
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[14:32:18] <MattJ> Guus and Martin both said they couldn't make it today
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[14:32:44] <ralphm> right
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[14:33:53] <ralphm> and no nyco?
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[14:37:36] <ralphm> Ok, so no quorum. Let's try next week and follow up on list.
[14:37:48] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:38:10] <MattJ> wfm
[14:38:21] <Ge0rG> ralphm: don't forget to change the topic for our multi-year ongoing Board meeting
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[14:44:12] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[14:44:19] <ralphm> There
[14:44:58] <Ge0rG> Phew!
[14:45:01] <Ge0rG> thanks very much.
[14:45:15] <Ge0rG> BTW, whom should I approach about the administration of jabber.org and xmpp.org the Jabber servers?
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[14:46:05] <jonasw> stpeter maybe?
[14:46:10] <jonasw> xmpp.org is iteam
[14:46:25] <jonasw> xmpp.org isn’t a public server in any way though
[14:46:27] <jonasw> AFAIK
[14:47:37] <Kev> Iteam for xmpp.org. Peter for jabber.org. Although you can always approach me and see if I can help.
[14:48:44] <Ge0rG> Maybe I should just make it (more) public now.
[14:49:29] <jonasw> your manifesto?
[14:49:32] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm working on a Public Servers Anti-Spam manifesto - https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e - I'd like to get some feedback from large public servers' admins to create a consensus that can be signed off
[14:51:07] <mathieui> if only the third item was possible
[14:51:34] <Ge0rG> mathieui: monitoring registrations from TOR?
[14:51:40] <mathieui> yes
[14:51:49] <Ge0rG> mathieui: it is possible, at least on prosody
[14:52:00] <Kev> I think it's millions of users, FWIW, although not all active.
[14:52:08] <Kev> jabber.org has millions of registered users on its own.
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[14:52:30] <mathieui> well, if "monitoring" consists of adding one log line to the prosody debug file, then sure, it’s possible
[14:52:33] <mathieui> but also useless
[14:52:48] <Ge0rG> mathieui: you can have a script grep your log
[14:53:41] <moparisthebest> And do what
[14:54:00] <moparisthebest> Xmpp over tor is perfectly legitimate
[14:54:14] <jonasw> moparisthebest, treat the accounts with more scrunity until it’s clear they’re not abusers?
[14:54:20] <jonasw> limit resource usage etc.
[14:54:29] <mathieui> moparisthebest, it’s perfectly legitimate but mass account creation is not
[14:54:32] <jonasw> protecting public servers against tor-helped abuse is also perfectly legitimate :)
[14:54:34] <moparisthebest> jonasw: sounds hard for a script but sounds ok
[14:55:17] <mathieui> also from my homemade statistics we’ve got around 1000 registrations for one legitimate user from those ips
[14:55:21] <Ge0rG> > protecting public servers against tor-helped abuse is also perfectly legitimate :)
We really need to differentiate here. There _are_ legitimate use cases for Tor
[14:55:41] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that’s why I’m saying "tor-helped abuse" and not "tor itself"
[14:55:47] <mathieui> yeah, it’s not about banning Tor at all (hell, I run a relay myself)
[14:55:51] <moparisthebest> So will there be a public list of servers that should be blocked or will that be up to individual servers to determine
[14:56:00] <jonasw> I suggested to run a public DNS block list
[14:56:06] <jonasw> but Ge0rG was against the name I proposed :)
[14:56:36] <moparisthebest> That would be ideal, but then someone has to manage it
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[14:57:02] <jonasw> I wanted to try that
[14:57:27] <moparisthebest> The reason it's ideal is because large servers have enough info to determine bad domains, small servers do not
[14:57:52] <jonasw> yes
[14:57:52] <moparisthebest> And I'm biased, I'm the only one on my server to get spam :)
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[15:00:39] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I was not opposed to you actually running it, but you might give it a better name, like xmpp-rbl
[15:01:24] <jonasw> I know
[15:01:54] <jonasw> RBL doesn’t seem to be a reasonable name though
[15:02:02] <jonasw> because it won’t be real-time or blackhole, will it?
[15:02:12] <Kev> Is there any reason for it to be DNS-based for XMPP?
[15:02:21] <jonasw> Kev, exploiting existing cache infrastructures and speed?
[15:02:33] <Kev> But you're talking about running your own, aren't you?
[15:02:54] <jonasw> what does that have to do with anything?
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[15:03:20] <jonasw> with existing cache infrastructtures, I mean global and local resolvers
[15:03:22] <Kev> "Exploiting existing infrastructure" and "bringing your own new infrastructure" don't seem compatible.
[15:03:54] <jonasw> DNS is also easily replicated
[15:04:03] <Kev> Anyway, I don't have a particular reason it needs to not be DNS.
[15:05:16] <Ge0rG> jabber.org doesn't have offline storage :(
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[15:09:10] <Kev> It doesn't?
[15:09:16] <Ge0rG> Nope.
[15:09:19] <Kev> I don't remember that being disabled.
[15:09:43] <Ge0rG> At least I get `503 - cancel: Service unavailable` when messaging stpeter
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[15:10:11] <Kev> I just tested on myself, and it worked.
[15:11:00] <Ge0rG> I never was able to message stpeter when he wasn't online.
[15:11:21] <jonasw> subscribed?
[15:11:34] <Ge0rG> yep
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[15:41:34] <SamWhited> syn?
[15:41:42] <Ge0rG> syn ack
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[15:44:33] <SamWhited> syn?
[15:45:45] <SamWhited> wow, took a,long time to send but apparently I can connect for free on Delta flights' terrible wifi.
[15:46:18] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: your `syn?` was delivered twice.
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[15:46:28] <mathieui> yeah
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[15:46:42] <mathieui> I have that from time to time with conversations
[15:46:55] <SamWhited> odd
[15:47:45] <Holger> SM resume fails so Conversations resends to fail on the safe side?
[15:47:53] <SamWhited> They claim to only allow Whatsapp, Facebook, and sonething else for free but I can use my server and jmp.chat's SI. server, this is rather nice.
[15:48:05] <SamWhited> SIP, even.
[15:48:07] <Ge0rG> Holger: shouldn't it wait for the MUC sync to complete before re-sending?
[15:48:23] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: maybe they are only blocking HTTP(S) ;)
[15:48:26] <Holger> (SM resume fails and the server doesn't include the 'h' attribute with the <failed/> response, that is ...)
[15:48:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, this muc is anonymous, isn’t it?
[15:48:40] <jonasw> so there’s no point in syncing
[15:48:42] <Holger> Ge0rG: How would that help?
[15:48:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: right, all bets are off.
[15:49:00] <jonasw> Holger, if you received the history in a non-anon muc you could be sure whether your message got delivered :)
[15:49:04] <Ge0rG> personally, I just ignore impersonation attacks and sync away.
[15:49:44] <Holger> jonasw: Hm with some proper ID (origin-id?) I guess so, yes.
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[21:29:11] <marc> Ge0rG, how did our discussion of user invitation URI end? Do we need the "ibr" query parameter?
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[21:43:43] <Ge0rG> marc: yes
[21:44:00] <marc> Ge0rG, in what case?
[21:44:34] <marc> I remeber I agreed that we don't need an action parameter :)
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[21:57:22] <Ge0rG> marc: the ibr parameter indicates that the preauth token can be used in an IBR request to the server
[21:58:04] <marc> Ge0rG, but the authority part of the URI already indicates it
[21:58:37] <Ge0rG> marc: wait, we are talking of account invitation?
[21:58:56] <Ge0rG> marc: we need a good glossary
[21:59:07] <marc> Ge0rG, no, "account creation" uses the "register" action query :)
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[21:59:40] <Ge0rG> marc: so how does the contact invitation indicate ibr?
[22:00:02] <marc> Ge0rG, xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
[22:00:19] <marc> xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN for client-side PARS
[22:00:39] <moparisthebest> did you mean https for the first one marc ?
[22:00:51] <Ge0rG> marc: so which one of those?
[22:00:58] <marc> Okay, wait
[22:02:09] <marc>
Account creation: xmpp://newuser@example.com/inviter@example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN
User invitation: xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
Client-side PARS: xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
[22:02:19] <marc> moparisthebest, no
[22:02:34] <Ge0rG> xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN;ibr is a perfect match for both second and third use case
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[22:03:09] <marc> Ge0rG, no
[22:03:13] <Ge0rG> And the account invitation doesn't need the inviter URL
[22:03:31] <marc> The authority part can indicate the domain to create an account
[22:03:44] <moparisthebest> not really sure the need for all the different urls but I'll just shut up until I see xep :P
[22:04:00] <marc> moparisthebest, no, just ask
[22:04:33] <moparisthebest> well what do each of those do?
[22:04:40] <Ge0rG> marc: you are making it too complicated
[22:04:44] <moparisthebest> and why are there more than one format if all have to be handled by xmpp client?
[22:05:12] <marc> moparisthebest, 1: create an account, 2: invite a user and give the choice to register on the server 3: PARS
[22:05:35] <Ge0rG> marc: stop adding edge cases. If the inviter and invitee domains differ, this is not our use case any more
[22:05:42] <moparisthebest> hmm how is 1 different than 2 ?
[22:05:50] <moparisthebest> like how would you get link #1
[22:06:09] <marc> moparisthebest, #1 is more or like admin stuff
[22:06:39] <moparisthebest> so why isn't it the same?
[22:07:08] <marc> Ge0rG, don't get why this makes it more complicated than using an additional "ibr" parameter
[22:07:15] <moparisthebest> I still don't see any reason for more than 1 url
[22:07:19] <moparisthebest> whatever it may be
[22:07:35] <moparisthebest> it looks like all those have exactly the same info in slightly different formats, why?
[22:07:46] <marc> moparisthebest, no, they don't
[22:07:53] <marc> moparisthebest, because they are different? ;)
[22:08:03] <moparisthebest> what is different
[22:08:07] <moparisthebest> what info do they have?
[22:08:16] <moparisthebest> bet you wish you would have just let me wait for xep now lol
[22:08:29] <moparisthebest> you can go back to ignoring me if you want I don't mind :)
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[22:08:48] <marc> moparisthebest, #1: contains the new account JID (newuser@example.com)
[22:09:05] <marc> moparisthebest, #2 contains the domain for IBR (example.com)
[22:09:36] <moparisthebest> do they not all contain domain for IBR ?
[22:10:01] <Ge0rG> marc: just completely delete #2
[22:10:12] <moparisthebest> so looks like 1 & 2 are same except extra useless 'register' and optional account name
[22:10:17] <marc> Ge0rG, we already agreed on it ;)
[22:10:35] <Ge0rG> marc: on deleting it
[22:10:51] <Ge0rG> And implementing the same functionality in #3
[22:10:55] <marc> And IIRC you liked the idea of different domains
[22:12:17] <moparisthebest> what does 'register' get you?
[22:12:33] <marc> moparisthebest, indicates account registration
[22:12:41] <moparisthebest> doesn't newuser@ indicate that?
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[22:13:50] <marc> moparisthebest, no, because newuser is optional :P
[22:14:11] <moparisthebest> So what does it do differently
[22:15:13] <marc> moparisthebest, as I said, you could have xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN
[22:15:25] <marc> But don't tell Ge0rG :D
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[22:17:26] <Ge0rG> marc: that won't work if the invitee already has an account!
[22:18:22] <moparisthebest> marc: point being you have to check if they have an account or not already so I think it's useless
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[22:19:01] <moparisthebest> And how do you validate it meh
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[22:20:05] <marc> Ge0rG, don't get your point
[22:20:31] <marc> Ge0rG, you're talking about #1, right?
[22:20:44] <Ge0rG> marc: no, #2
[22:21:35] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, what's the problem if the invitee already has an account?
[22:22:11] <marc> Why doesn't it work? You just show an dialog to add via the PARS token
[22:22:35] <marc> And show a short button or whatever that the invitee can also create an account on the server
[22:25:21] <Ge0rG> marc: because you need a #3 link for that to work
[22:25:28] <marc> s/short/small
[22:25:52] <marc> Ge0rG, why?
[22:26:31] <marc> Ge0rG, if the server doesn't support this XEP the client can generate #3 itself
[22:27:04] <marc> As fallback, the user doesn't even notice it
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[22:28:42] <marc> The same applies if the server doesn't allow IBR for invitation
[22:28:52] <marc> It just sends #3
[22:32:20] <marc> (This is what you describe as server-side PARS in your XEP)
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[22:37:02] <Ge0rG> marc: if the server allows ibr and generates the link, I still want it to be in #3 format, because that's most widely supported
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[22:37:15] <Ge0rG> marc: if the server allows ibr and generates the link, I still want it to be in #3 format, because that's most widely supported
[22:38:20] <marc> Ge0rG, if these clients are implemented correctly it is even backward compatible ;)
[22:39:28] <marc> Ge0rG, #2 is backward compatible to #3 if you parse the URI properly IMO
[22:41:08] <Ge0rG> marc: no, it's something different
[22:41:52] <marc> Ge0rG, if you correctly parse the #3 URI you would extract the JID from the "path" component
[22:42:29] <marc> The same for #2
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[22:44:42] <marc> Ge0rG, in #3 the authority part is empty and the JID in the "path" component
[22:45:25] <Ge0rG> marc: except that #2 has completely weird semantics with a host as the authority
[22:45:44] <Ge0rG> marc: just leave it away, please
[22:45:47] <marc> Ge0rG, that's the sematinc of XMPP URIs
[22:46:54] <marc> Ge0rG, xmpp:///inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN if no domain is provided
[22:47:02] <Ge0rG> "this URI points to a jabber server."
[22:49:22] <Ge0rG> marc: xmpp:inviter@domain;preauth;ibr is an invitation to a user JID, with the hint that you can register on that domain
[22:50:00] <marc> Ge0rG, but you can not provide a good argument why that's a better solution ;)
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[22:51:14] <Ge0rG> marc: I've provided multiple good arguments multiple times already
[22:51:39] <marc> Ge0rG, both are backward compatible
[22:51:50] <Ge0rG> marc: I'm on my mobile client right now, and I really don't want to repeat them all
[22:52:27] <Ge0rG> marc: there are no clients supporting #2 dnd it has the wrong semantics
[22:53:59] <marc> Ge0rG, #1 has the same wrong semantic then?
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[22:54:47] <Ge0rG> marc: #1 is sharing an account on a server
[22:55:43] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, what about xmpp://example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN (#1 without specified username)?
[22:56:06] <Ge0rG> marc: I still think we could completely cover most situations with just #3, but #1 adds some value
[22:56:24] <Ge0rG> marc: nope! Use #3
[22:57:29] <marc> Ge0rG, I'm talking about #1 scenario
[22:57:37] <marc> Ge0rG, is this URI correct?
[22:57:49] <marc> for #1 scenario...
[22:58:41] <marc> No trick question ;) I'll use "ibr" for user invitation
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[22:59:02] <Ge0rG> marc: if you don't supply a username, just skip the authority completely
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[23:01:41] <marc> Hm, I don't know but we agree on the following:

User invitation: xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN;ibr
User invitation (without IBR, server-side PARS) xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
[23:02:02] <marc> If the server doesn't support this XEP the client generates #2 itself
[23:02:10] <marc> Okay?
[23:03:43] <Ge0rG> marc: yes
[23:04:13] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, I'll adapt the XEP accordingly
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[23:04:43] <Flow> marc, is the (proto)xep online somewhere?
[23:04:54] <Ge0rG> marc: that is exactly what we agreed about, plus account invitation with xmpp://invitee@domain with a token
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[23:05:04] <marc> Flow, no, but I can upload it tomorrow or so
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[23:13:06] <Flow> +1
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