XSF Discussion - 2018-01-10


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  161. jonasw moparisthebest, your post with Comcast on the SRV issue was amusingly written, brightened up my day :)
  162. jonasw moparisthebest, your post with Comcast on the SRV issue was written amusingly, brightened up my day :)
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  202. Ge0rG Why do we have `&xep0077;` and `<cite>XEP-0077</cite>` na neitiher works as expected (show the full name on first occurence and just a hyperlink on any later one)?
  203. daniel Ge0rG: I always use &xep77; on the first time. But I agree it would be better if it only displayed the full name once
  204. daniel Probably not easy
  205. Ge0rG daniel: computers were created to automate this sort of thing.
  206. Kev If you can make the xslt do that, I'm sure people will be grateful.
  207. Ge0rG I can't. And I'm not sure I want to learn how to.
  208. Ge0rG If I was immediately able to do it, I'd just implement it straight away and PR.
  209. Kev Exactly :)
  210. Ge0rG jonasw: you are our in-house XSLT expert with some free time available, now that your exam is over.
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  212. jonasw will probably be tricky with XSLT 1.x
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  214. Steve Kille I use `&xep0077;` in MIX
  215. Steve Kille I tried <cite> once and it was badly broken
  216. Ge0rG So every XEP reference turns into the full text?
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  218. Steve Kille I don't think this is so bad. Someone fixed up the much more problematic issue of duplicates in the reference list, which was a big win (thanks to whoever sorted it)
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  220. Ge0rG It would also be good to be able to link to specific sections of an XEP
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  223. Guus poor Jonas :)
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  259. marc Ge0rG, If I understand the RFC correctly, the authority component is used to "select" an account. So xmpp://foo@bar.com/juliet@example.com?roster would mean "add juliet@example.com to my roster of account foo@bar.com". Which is why the authority component needs to be a full JID
  260. Ge0rG marc: Yes, this is a valid reading of the RFC.
  261. marc Ge0rG, Good. Which is why xmpp://xxx?register doesn't make sense
  262. Ge0rG marc: but what message would xmpp://juliet@example.com/romeo@example.com?register convey?
  263. marc Well this doesn't make sense IMO because you can not register an account for a given account
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  266. Ge0rG marc: I would argue that xmpp://juliet@example.com?register would make sense, though, in the sense that you should register the account specified.
  267. Kev marc: That's not a full JID. That's a bare JID.
  268. marc Kev, yes, I know :-/
  269. marc Ge0rG, Yes, but look at the "?register" definition. I think they used xmpp:foo@bar?register on purpose and not xmpp://foo@bar?register
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  271. marc Ge0rG, However, we agreed that we don't need the inviter JID because it can be faked
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  282. Ge0rG I imagined it would be less text, but somehow it ended up rather complex: https://op-co.de/tmp/user-invite.html
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  284. jonasw is this ready for protoxep submission?
  285. Ge0rG jonasw: not yet
  286. jonasw what’s missing?
  287. Ge0rG jonasw: there is a dozen of TODOs inside
  288. jonasw we’ve got accepted XEPs which have that too
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  291. jonasw (bind2 I think)
  292. jonasw (or had)
  293. Kev TODOs aren't a problem, I think.
  294. Kev (Sometimes even TODOs that make it unimplementable, depending on the circumstances)
  295. Ge0rG I don't feel finished yet.
  296. Ge0rG Besides, we won't get it into today's council anyway, will we?
  297. Kev Could if it's urgent I suppose, but not otherwise.
  298. Ge0rG I don't think it is. Adding urgency won't make more people contribute to the public discussion.
  299. Ge0rG It's also still self-contradicting in some places.
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  310. Dave Cridland TODOs are a lot less of a problem than unsubmitted XEPs.
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  312. Ge0rG Hey Dave! I've been reading your proto-XEPs, and I have a feeling that CLIENT-KEY counters will get desynced and invalidated if a network outage happens during the handshake.
  313. Ge0rG But I haven't completely understood the flow and conditions, so I might err.
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  325. Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/568 (cc marc)
  326. jonasw \o/
  327. marc :)
  328. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, You're right. Various things in when, exactly, the counter is incremented could be improved. There are security issues tied in with all of them, though, I think.
  329. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: yeah. My question is, how much thought you have put into the exact order of increments, and what the rationale is beyond what's written down.
  330. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, But we do assume that if the counter is desynchronized, the legitimate user can always use a password (and TOTP device) anyway.
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  332. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: that assumption is technically as valid as "the user can TOTP authenticate every single time"
  333. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Right. But if you incrememnt the counter only on success, then it's susceptible to a replay attack, I think.
  334. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I've experienced many situations where my mobile connection changed multiple times in a row, providing just enough time to the client to begin authentication.
  335. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: a replay of what exactly?
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  338. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, The client-initial-response, specifically.
  339. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Also, the counter has to be incremented at the same time at both ends. I think we run into a Two Generals problem if we try and make that perfect.
  340. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: maybe all we need is some kind of transactional consistency? I'm not sure, I'd just like to rule out that the whole effect is ruined every other day
  341. jonasw Dave Cridland, found a typo in the rfc draft (section 6.2): multiple values for Counter, increasingly the likelyhood of discovering a match.
  342. jonasw *increasingly*
  343. jonasw Dave Cridland, ha, I was about to say that with the Two Generals :)
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  345. Dave Cridland jonasw, Ah, yes. Should be "increasingly the likelyhoodly of discoveringly a match" of course.
  346. jonasw Dave Cridland, can’t you solve the replay issue (I haven’t dug deep into the draft yet) the same way SCRAM does, with a nonce?
  347. jonasw specifically, is the counter only used to prevent replays without knowledge of the secrets involved?
  348. Dave Cridland jonasw, Well, sort of. So yes, but then you'd have to have the server store previous nonces, and ensure they weren't reused. Which feels, well, rubbish.
  349. jonasw do we really need that, or can’t we say that 128bit of random nonce shall be enough for everyone?
  350. Dave Cridland jonasw, Ah, so no. A counter is used because it's predictably changing state.
  351. jonasw I don’t see the purpose of the counter quite yet
  352. Dave Cridland jonasw, We could also use NotACounter = H(NotACounter) each time.
  353. jonasw sure
  354. jonasw in SCRAM, the nonce is composed of two parts (one from the server and one from the client), wouldn’t that work?
  355. Dave Cridland jonasw, But the idea is that where we see a correct ValidatorKey but an invalid resultant HMAC, we can make a reasonable assumption that the key has been compromised. THough as Ge0rG points out, this also occurs in some network failures.
  356. jonasw marc, please see https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/568#issuecomment-356583982
  357. Dave Cridland jonasw, Yes, but it would introduce an additional RTT. The right channel binding data would solve this (and we do use this as well), but too many operating systems don't allow clients to get at that.
  358. jonasw mh
  359. marc jonasw, is there a way to sign it without registering on GitHub?
  360. jonasw marc, I was expecting that. Kev ^?
  361. marc jonasw, I can send you a handwritten letter for example
  362. Kev No clue, I wasn't involved in setting up the CLA stuff.
  363. jonasw marc, I think we handled that via email before the CLAbot thing was invented.
  364. jonasw I have no idea where the email went normally though, I need to figure that out.
  365. jonasw I’ll just do what SamWhited did to me back then.
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  367. Kev Getting someone to email in the agreement seems sufficient to me.
  368. jonasw marc, I sent you an email, please reply keeping the CC intact.
  369. marc jonasw, just replying a "+1"? :)
  370. jonasw if you want to be super safe, copy the IPR policy into your reply; but +1 is essentially what I did.
  371. marc jonasw, okay, thanks for the mail. I'll read the policy and reply then
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  374. zinid moparisthebest, you said you don't know clueless admins, here is one: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2214
  375. tux I just read that Kontron [1] is implementing MQTT into its communication gateways (LoRa based). Do we have good showcases for using XMPP in a mobile IoT context? There's a lot of movement currently towareds standardized communication in public transport, but – if at all – I only see MQTT (or SOAP …) [1] https://www.kontron.de/
  376. tux Kontron TRACe LoRa-MQTT https://www.kontron.de/products/systems/transportation-computers/trace-railway-computers/trace-lora-mqtt.html
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  386. edhelas just found that https://github.com/mgp25/Chat-API/wiki/FunXMPP-Protocol
  387. edhelas is it just a dump version of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html ?
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  403. marc jonasw, Done
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  406. Zash edhelas: yes, a custom compression scheme. they also had their own custom RC4 based encryption scheme and some custom authentication that was not very good. hopefully those are fixed by now.
  407. edhelas but is it nocieably better than ZLIB ?
  408. edhelas I mean this is just dictionnary compression, can work pretty well on XML
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  416. intosi I wouldn't expect this to be better in terms of compression on longer sessions, as it doesn't even try to compress jids or body texts.
  417. Zash Which might be a good thing
  418. Zash Remember https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2014/08/07/https-attacks-and-xmpp-2-crime-and-breach/
  419. intosi I member.
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  424. intosi But it could easily keep a rolling dictionary of jids on both ends, and only send new jids in clear form.
  425. intosi It could also save on parsing time by adding information that would speed that up.
  426. intosi Before you know it, you're sending XMPP as ASN.1 ;)
  427. Zash That's sorta EXI, isn't it
  428. intosi Zash: it is.
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  449. moparisthebest zinid: no no I said admins that clueless should get another career, I stand by that statement hehe
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  453. Guus My kid just picked out a new bicycle.
  454. Guus https://xmpp.igniterealtime.org:7483/httpfileupload/72bb37ec-a082-473c-9d00-e5a37eaa5b32/oTRaUDqyTneazojaH3P9og.jpg
  455. jonasw close!
  456. Guus I swear I had nothing to do with it. 😁
  457. Zash Guus: I expect another picture where you've modded that Y to a J
  458. edhelas now you must put a XMPP sticker on it
  459. Ge0rG What Zash said.
  460. moparisthebest Careful about modding it, those Cisco lawyers could be hiding anywhere!
  461. Ge0rG You need to pay 500$ to the XSF, because it is obviously a piece of physical merchandise.
  462. Zash As long as the kid doesn't fancy becoming a courier it should be safe.
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  466. Ge0rG jonasw: is there another magic button you need to push for the proto-xep email to happen?
  467. edhelas https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-security-flaws-encryption-group-chats/
  468. jonasw
  469. Ge0rG edhelas: Shocking!
  470. Zash He who controls the server controls the universe!
  471. edhelas that's why they added e2ee… wait
  472. Ge0rG How is group membership enforced in OMEMO? Is the admin signing the participant key list? Oh, wait. Not defined at all.
  473. edhelas :D
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  475. Ge0rG I think identity management is the weakest link in OMEMO.
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  477. moparisthebest Ge0rG, iirc everyone has to be on everyone's contact list
  478. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's a prerequisite to knowing their keys, except with omemo_for_all
  479. Zash or the omemo key nodes need to be public
  480. Ge0rG moparisthebest: it's not a security guarantee of any kind, especially if you consider that the roster is owned by the server.
  481. zinid moparisthebest: so I should tell him "choose another career"?
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  483. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I *thought* the key had to be trusted too, but maybe not with BTBV not sure
  484. moparisthebest zinid, yes 🙂
  485. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so only friends can snoop on friends?
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  487. zinid moparisthebest: very clever
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  500. Anu Hi all. I'll be lurking here for a bit.
  501. Ge0rG Hi Anu!
  502. intosi Hello, Anu!
  503. Anu Hi
  504. jonasw welcome, Anu
  505. Guus if you lurk long enough, we'll ask you to do the dishes though.
  506. Anu hahah
  507. Anu Sorry, old irc habit. join a channel and watch a little before jumping in.
  508. daniel Anu, probably introduce yourself very quickly. i'm not sure everyone recognizes you by name. (I only figured that out myself because you contact me 1:1)
  509. Guus I was going to say that IRC is so 1999 - but that's probably not old enough :)
  510. Kev I still actively use IRC now :p
  511. jonasw Anu, in general, a good habit I think :)
  512. Holger XMPP is 1999 ...
  513. Zash 80's something?
  514. Anu I was talking on IRC during the gulf war..
  515. Zash Oh but apparently with IRCv3 they've got JSON and all the features
  516. moparisthebest yea but it's like MIX
  517. daniel which one?
  518. moparisthebest all spec'd out and no one in sight wants to implement it
  519. Anu I should properly introduce myself. I am Anu Pokharel, I develop Monal for iOS and OSX
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  521. Anu 1990 gulf war
  522. Guus good to have you hear, Anu (we'll still ask you to do the dishes, eventually)
  523. Ge0rG Anu: actually it's awesome to have you here. Now we can complain even more about Monal ;-)
  524. MattJ After the Board decides which dishes to wash first
  525. Anu complaints mean people use it i guess. :)
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  527. Ge0rG Anu: actually I have a hobby of installing XMPP software and flooding the developers with issue reports.
  528. MattJ :'(
  529. intosi Anu: Ge0rG isn't joking.
  530. Anu Oh i know, Ive seen the bugs that hes sent me
  531. intosi ;)
  532. moparisthebest if it wasn't for Ge0rG and Link Mauve no XMPP software would have any issues
  533. moparisthebest at least, reported issues
  534. Anu It's great. I've come to really appreciate people who test code for me.
  535. Ge0rG https://github.com/anurodhp/Monal/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Age0rg - way too few, if compared with prosody or poezio.
  536. Ge0rG But on the other hand, I'm not actively using the iPhone, it's just a dev device.
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  538. mathieuii at least Anu is safe, Link Mauve has no apple device
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  540. Anu I'm halfway through porting all the iOS code to a mac UI.
  541. Anu I hope to get more bugs then
  542. marc Anu, screenshots of your App would be nice
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  544. Ge0rG Anu: in Monal/iOS I see many of my offline contacts listed multiple times. Restarting the app fixes it though.
  545. Ge0rG Anu: also, do you have a beta channel / testflight?
  546. Anu Ge0rG, yeah its a bug in one my sql queries. Yes, I do send me your apple id. I need more people testing the next update prior to release
  547. Anu Also, please file a bug for that if there isnt already one so i can make sure its fixed
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  550. pep. marc, jonasw, good to see the XEP up :)
  551. marc pep., you forgot to mention Ge0rG :)
  552. jonasw I just hit the "merge" and "send" buttons
  553. jonasw (and even screwed up the merge)
  554. pep. Ge0rG, ^
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  556. Ge0rG jonasw: squash & merge?
  557. jonasw Ge0rG, nah, more like "first ask for IPR signature, then merge" :)
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  560. marc jonasw, actually I don't understand why you merged it into master right now
  561. jonasw marc, why not?
  562. marc jonasw, I try to keep my master branches clean
  563. Kev But it's in the inbox, no?
  564. Kev So this *is* clean.
  565. Kev The inbox holds protoXEPs submitted for approval, but not yet Experimental.
  566. marc I'm talking about Git commit history
  567. pep. marc, I don't think there's any issue with pushing early to master, you commit history is never clean anyway
  568. marc pep., my is :D
  569. pep. How many rebase and push force does that take you
  570. Kev I think I don't understand the question. There was a PR requesting this be merged to master, so Jonas did. Isn't that right?
  571. jonasw marc, the only way to make the website update is to push to master
  572. jonasw that might be the bit of info you’re lacking
  573. marc jonasw, ah okay
  574. pep. plus yeah it doesn't apply here
  575. marc Didn't think about the website
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  580. Guus > Ge0rG: Anu: actually I have a hobby of installing XMPP software and flooding the developers with issue
  581. Guus I feel neglected.
  582. Guus (as I'm pretty sure mine has most bugs of all :P )
  583. Anu Guus, do you have an iOS device, want to test monal ?
  584. Guus Anu: sorry, android
  585. Guus (although I was referring to the lack of issue flood from Ge0rG)
  586. Ge0rG Guus: sorry, my time is limited.
  587. Guus (test)
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  592. Ge0rG Damn, my iPhone won't get detected by my VirtualBox.
  593. Ge0rG has left
  594. moparisthebest probably have to do USB passthrough or something?
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  596. Ge0rG Yes. But it doesn't work.
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  602. pep. marc, Ge0rG, any reason why ad-hoc and not say <iq/>?
  603. jonasw pep., ad-hoc allows use from clients which don’t support the protocol yet
  604. pep. Does many client support ad-hoc already?
  605. jonasw sure
  606. jonasw even pidgin(!) does
  607. pep. Do
  608. jonasw gajim does, poezio does
  609. pep. Conversations? Dino
  610. jonasw dunno about those
  611. pep. yaxim
  612. jonasw but you can always implement a specific ad-hoc flow without implementing all of ad-hoc or a generic ad-hoc UI
  613. jonasw so if there’s interest in this thing, I guess that wouldn’t be a blocker
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  617. moparisthebest conversations definitly no, dino I think not
  618. Ge0rG pep.: yaxim doesn't. But I'd for sure add support for the user-invite command
  619. pep. jonasw, I'm not sure I get your point about clients not supporting the protocol yet
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  621. jonasw pep., if you invent a protocol based on non ad-hoc <iq/>s, *all* clients have to be updated to be able to use it.
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  624. jonasw pep., if you use ad-hoc, clients which already have ad-hoc support can use the protocol right away.
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  626. pep. Well here all clients have to implement ad-hoc
  627. pep. first
  628. jonasw no
  629. Ge0rG pep.: your clients are bad then :P
  630. pep. If they want to use this
  631. jonasw no
  632. pep. no?
  633. jonasw they could always just implement handling for that specific command, without running a full-blown ad-hoc implementation
  634. jonasw (which is simpler)
  635. pep. Which would be the same as handling this specific command via iqs?
  636. jonasw exatcly
  637. Ge0rG pep.: yes, except that now there are already clients that support this
  638. Ge0rG so for a client not yet supporting ad-hoc, it doesn't matter. And for clients supporting ad-hoc, they get it for free
  639. jonasw yupp
  640. jonasw and that’s the beauty of it
  641. pep. Ok, I'm just trying to understand here. So we should start implementing everything via ad-hoc commands right
  642. jonasw no
  643. jonasw not everything makes sense as an ad-hoc command
  644. jonasw MAM for example; the result wouldn’t be very useful for a user
  645. jonasw (ad-hoc commands are only useful if the result doesn’t need to be interpreted by the client in any way, but only by the user)
  646. jonasw roster wouldn’t make any sense either, a client needs proper support for a roster for it to be useful.
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  648. pep. hmm
  649. mathieuii jonasw, there are the server admin commands XEP which can be singled out by the client
  650. jonasw mathieuii, sure
  651. jonasw a client can always additionally implement fancy additional support for a given Ad-Hoc Command
  652. jonasw but the command has to work well even without specific support
  653. mathieuii yeah, sure
  654. pep. Will the ad-hoc command be versioned or something?
  655. pep. If now a client want to special-case it and the XEP gets updated, you now broke everything
  656. jonasw pep., there are specific rules how unknown fields are treated in forms
  657. pep. And lost all the interest of using ad-hoc
  658. jonasw if the XEP updates adhere to that, there should be no issues
  659. pep. k
  660. jonasw (and a client could fallback to the default ad-hoc handling (if it has some))
  661. pep. that's a lot of ifs
  662. jonasw sure
  663. jonasw things are worse with IQs though
  664. jonasw if you make an update to a raw IQ protocol, this is (usually) a namespace bump, breaking the flow for everyone
  665. jonasw (until the next update)
  666. pep. yeah, but you don't end-up with UB
  667. pep. Or defined-but-if-if-if
  668. Ge0rG pep.: XMPP is full of defined-but-if-if-if
  669. pep. yeah :/
  670. jonasw pep., it’s fully defined
  671. jonasw but in addition to the defined behaviour, you can also play safe and fall back to generic ad-hoc handling.
  672. pep. But it depends if X has support for Y and Z and
  673. pep. But gotcha
  674. jonasw no, if you supported an earlier version (okay, here’s one "if": and *if* the people updating the XEP didn’t do something stupid), that’ll continue to work
  675. Ge0rG jonasw: the Council should prevent them from doing stupid things
  676. pep. Yeah I think I would prefer to have it versioned and break cleanly with a major update if needed, instead of wanting to stay backward-compatible until the end of times
  677. pep. At costs
  678. Ge0rG pep.: you can always introduce a different command name.
  679. Ge0rG pep.: which is exactly like a namespace bump
  680. pep. invite2
  681. jonasw Ge0rG, heh, yes, but that doesn’t always happen :)
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  684. pep. small remark, there doesn't seem to be in 0050 anything that restrict command name usage. Server could be using a conflicting command name, knowing that ad-hoc commands are often used in non-specified environments as I understand it
  685. pep. Though it's the same remark for server admin commands
  686. Ge0rG pep.: yes. namespacing commands is a thin
  687. Ge0rG +g
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  703. Ge0rG marc: just stumbled upon https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html#nt-idm138620103579920 > In accordance with Section 3.2.2.1 of XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes, the allowable lexical representations for the xs:boolean datatype are the strings "0" and "false" for the concept 'false' and the strings "1" and "true" for the concept 'true'; implementations MUST support both styles of lexical representation.
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  706. moparisthebest ew
  707. moparisthebest why not T and F and Y and N also
  708. moparisthebest I mean if you are going down that rabbit hole, might as well see how deep
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  710. Ge0rG moparisthebest: it's merely about whether ibr= should be `true`, `1` or `y`
  711. Ge0rG I'm not keen on inventing new protocol, just making the xmpp: URI as short as possible
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  720. Ge0rG So, how does XEP-0153 work in a MUC? You send the vcard get IQ to the participant full JID, and it gets forwarded to the user full JID? Intercepted by the user's account?
  721. MattJ To the user bare JID, intercepted by the MUC
  722. Ge0rG MattJ: forwarded to the bare JID?
  723. MattJ Yes
  724. MattJ MUC service handles everything addressed to participant JIDs
  725. Ge0rG Because sending the IQ get to the MUC bare JID won't work out very well
  726. MattJ What "handling" means isn't greatly defined, but a sensible MUC service will handle vcard requests by proxying to the user's bare JID
  727. Ge0rG is there a XEP for that?
  728. MattJ nafaik
  729. MattJ It's just an implementation thing
  730. Ge0rG Isn't that what XEPs are made for?
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  732. MattJ The MUC service could return a service-specific vcard (e.g. you have a muc.xmpp.org profile)
  733. MattJ and still be compliant
  734. MattJ unless someone can prove me wrong :)
  735. Anu has left
  736. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks very much. That helped me better understand the problem space. I hope I was able to make a useful suggestion for pep-vcard-conversion now
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  743. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: is the issuer name "XMPP" in totp-2fa an example or a normative constant?
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  783. marc Ge0rG, what's the "problem" or why do you mention this?
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  785. daniel > Because sending the IQ get to the MUC bare JID won't work out very well Why not? Isn't that where you disco#info to as well?
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