Wednesday, January 10, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:38:00] <jonasw> moparisthebest, your post with Comcast on the SRV issue was amusingly written, brightened up my day :)
[07:38:08] <jonasw> moparisthebest, your post with Comcast on the SRV issue was written amusingly, brightened up my day :)
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[08:43:06] <Ge0rG> Why do we have `&xep0077;` and `<cite>XEP-0077</cite>` na neitiher works as expected (show the full name on first occurence and just a hyperlink on any later one)?
[08:45:09] <daniel> Ge0rG: I always use &xep77; on the first time. But I agree it would be better if it only displayed the full name once
[08:45:11] <daniel> Probably not easy
[08:45:42] <Ge0rG> daniel: computers were created to automate this sort of thing.
[08:45:59] <Kev> If you can make the xslt do that, I'm sure people will be grateful.
[08:46:17] <Ge0rG> I can't. And I'm not sure I want to learn how to.
[08:46:34] <Ge0rG> If I was immediately able to do it, I'd just implement it straight away and PR.
[08:46:35] <Kev> Exactly :)
[08:46:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you are our in-house XSLT expert with some free time available, now that your exam is over.
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[08:47:29] <jonasw> will probably be tricky with XSLT 1.x
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[08:56:01] <Steve Kille> I use `&xep0077;` in MIX
[08:56:20] <Steve Kille> I tried <cite> once and it was badly broken
[08:57:16] <Ge0rG> So every XEP reference turns into the full text?
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[08:58:54] <Steve Kille> I don't think this is so bad. Someone fixed up the much more problematic issue of duplicates in the reference list, which was a big win (thanks to whoever sorted it)
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[09:01:19] <Ge0rG> It would also be good to be able to link to specific sections of an XEP
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[09:07:17] <Guus> poor Jonas :)
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[10:34:22] <marc> Ge0rG, If I understand the RFC correctly, the authority component is used to "select" an account. So xmpp://foo@bar.com/juliet@example.com?roster would mean "add juliet@example.com to my roster of account foo@bar.com". Which is why the authority component needs to be a full JID
[10:36:14] <Ge0rG> marc: Yes, this is a valid reading of the RFC.
[10:36:45] <marc> Ge0rG, Good. Which is why xmpp://xxx?register doesn't make sense
[10:36:51] <Ge0rG> marc: but what message would xmpp://juliet@example.com/romeo@example.com?register convey?
[10:37:57] <marc> Well this doesn't make sense IMO because you can not register an account for a given account
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[10:38:44] <Ge0rG> marc: I would argue that xmpp://juliet@example.com?register would make sense, though, in the sense that you should register the account specified.
[10:38:47] <Kev> marc: That's not a full JID. That's a bare JID.
[10:39:22] <marc> Kev, yes, I know :-/
[10:40:24] <marc> Ge0rG, Yes, but look at the "?register" definition. I think they used xmpp:foo@bar?register on purpose and not xmpp://foo@bar?register
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[10:40:47] <marc> Ge0rG, However, we agreed that we don't need the inviter JID because it can be faked
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[11:17:14] <Ge0rG> I imagined it would be less text, but somehow it ended up rather complex: https://op-co.de/tmp/user-invite.html
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[11:18:00] <jonasw> is this ready for protoxep submission?
[11:18:22] <Ge0rG> jonasw: not yet
[11:18:25] <jonasw> what’s missing?
[11:18:59] <Ge0rG> jonasw: there is a dozen of TODOs inside
[11:19:23] <jonasw> we’ve got accepted XEPs which have that too
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[11:19:29] <jonasw> (bind2 I think)
[11:19:32] <jonasw> (or had)
[11:19:57] <Kev> TODOs aren't a problem, I think.
[11:20:11] <Kev> (Sometimes even TODOs that make it unimplementable, depending on the circumstances)
[11:20:47] <Ge0rG> I don't feel finished yet.
[11:20:57] <Ge0rG> Besides, we won't get it into today's council anyway, will we?
[11:21:16] <Kev> Could if it's urgent I suppose, but not otherwise.
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[11:21:49] <Ge0rG> I don't think it is. Adding urgency won't make more people contribute to the public discussion.
[11:22:51] <Ge0rG> It's also still self-contradicting in some places.
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[11:41:40] <Dave Cridland> TODOs are a lot less of a problem than unsubmitted XEPs.
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[11:44:48] <Ge0rG> Hey Dave! I've been reading your proto-XEPs, and I have a feeling that CLIENT-KEY counters will get desynced and invalidated if a network outage happens during the handshake.
[11:45:18] <Ge0rG> But I haven't completely understood the flow and conditions, so I might err.
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[12:07:43] <Ge0rG> jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/568 (cc marc)
[12:08:24] <jonasw> \o/
[12:08:33] <marc> :)
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[12:13:39] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, You're right. Various things in when, exactly, the counter is incremented could be improved. There are security issues tied in with all of them, though, I think.
[12:14:26] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: yeah. My question is, how much thought you have put into the exact order of increments, and what the rationale is beyond what's written down.
[12:14:26] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, But we do assume that if the counter is desynchronized, the legitimate user can always use a password (and TOTP device) anyway.
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[12:14:52] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: that assumption is technically as valid as "the user can TOTP authenticate every single time"
[12:15:32] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Right. But if you incrememnt the counter only on success, then it's susceptible to a replay attack, I think.
[12:15:50] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I've experienced many situations where my mobile connection changed multiple times in a row, providing just enough time to the client to begin authentication.
[12:16:12] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: a replay of what exactly?
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[12:17:48] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, The client-initial-response, specifically.
[12:18:51] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Also, the counter has to be incremented at the same time at both ends. I think we run into a Two Generals problem if we try and make that perfect.
[12:21:16] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: maybe all we need is some kind of transactional consistency? I'm not sure, I'd just like to rule out that the whole effect is ruined every other day
[12:21:25] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, found a typo in the rfc draft (section 6.2):
multiple values for Counter, increasingly the likelyhood of
discovering a match.
[12:21:28] <jonasw> *increasingly*
[12:21:45] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, ha, I was about to say that with the Two Generals :)
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[12:22:03] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Ah, yes. Should be "increasingly the likelyhoodly of discoveringly a match" of course.
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[12:23:51] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, can’t you solve the replay issue (I haven’t dug deep into the draft yet) the same way SCRAM does, with a nonce?
[12:24:26] <jonasw> specifically, is the counter only used to prevent replays without knowledge of the secrets involved?
[12:24:32] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Well, sort of. So yes, but then you'd have to have the server store previous nonces, and ensure they weren't reused. Which feels, well, rubbish.
[12:24:56] <jonasw> do we really need that, or can’t we say that 128bit of random nonce shall be enough for everyone?
[12:25:21] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Ah, so no. A counter is used because it's predictably changing state.
[12:25:35] <jonasw> I don’t see the purpose of the counter quite yet
[12:25:54] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, We could also use NotACounter = H(NotACounter) each time.
[12:26:02] <jonasw> sure
[12:27:10] <jonasw> in SCRAM, the nonce is composed of two parts (one from the server and one from the client), wouldn’t that work?
[12:27:21] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, But the idea is that where we see a correct ValidatorKey but an invalid resultant HMAC, we can make a reasonable assumption that the key has been compromised. THough as Ge0rG points out, this also occurs in some network failures.
[12:28:00] <jonasw> marc, please see https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/568#issuecomment-356583982
[12:28:13] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Yes, but it would introduce an additional RTT. The right channel binding data would solve this (and we do use this as well), but too many operating systems don't allow clients to get at that.
[12:28:32] <jonasw> mh
[12:29:52] <marc> jonasw, is there a way to sign it without registering on GitHub?
[12:30:20] <jonasw> marc, I was expecting that. Kev ^?
[12:30:46] <marc> jonasw, I can send you a handwritten letter for example
[12:31:00] <Kev> No clue, I wasn't involved in setting up the CLA stuff.
[12:31:01] <jonasw> marc, I think we handled that via email before the CLAbot thing was invented.
[12:31:15] <jonasw> I have no idea where the email went normally though, I need to figure that out.
[12:32:04] <jonasw> I’ll just do what SamWhited did to me back then.
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[12:33:58] <Kev> Getting someone to email in the agreement seems sufficient to me.
[12:34:50] <jonasw> marc, I sent you an email, please reply keeping the CC intact.
[12:35:44] <marc> jonasw, just replying a "+1"? :)
[12:36:00] <jonasw> if you want to be super safe, copy the IPR policy into your reply; but +1 is essentially what I did.
[12:36:39] <marc> jonasw, okay, thanks for the mail. I'll read the policy and reply then
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[12:39:26] <zinid> moparisthebest, you said you don't know clueless admins, here is one: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2214
[12:42:58] <tux> I just read that Kontron [1] is implementing MQTT into its communication gateways (LoRa based). Do we have good showcases for using XMPP in a mobile IoT context?

There's a lot of movement currently towareds standardized communication in public transport, but – if at all – I only see MQTT (or SOAP …)

[1] https://www.kontron.de/
[12:43:49] <tux> Kontron TRACe LoRa-MQTT
https://www.kontron.de/products/systems/transportation-computers/trace-railway-computers/trace-lora-mqtt.html
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[13:03:01] <edhelas> just found that https://github.com/mgp25/Chat-API/wiki/FunXMPP-Protocol
[13:03:13] <edhelas> is it just a dump version of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0138.html ?
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[13:34:14] <marc> jonasw, Done
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[13:36:15] <Zash> edhelas: yes, a custom compression scheme. they also had their own custom RC4 based encryption scheme and some custom authentication that was not very good. hopefully those are fixed by now.
[13:37:32] <edhelas> but is it nocieably better than ZLIB ?
[13:37:44] <edhelas> I mean this is just dictionnary compression, can work pretty well on XML
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[13:51:29] <intosi> I wouldn't expect this to be better in terms of compression on longer sessions, as it doesn't even try to compress jids or body texts.
[13:51:46] <Zash> Which might be a good thing
[13:52:25] <Zash> Remember https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2014/08/07/https-attacks-and-xmpp-2-crime-and-breach/
[13:52:36] <intosi> I member.
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[13:53:39] <intosi> But it could easily keep a rolling dictionary of jids on both ends, and only send new jids in clear form.
[13:53:57] <intosi> It could also save on parsing time by adding information that would speed that up.
[13:54:24] <intosi> Before you know it, you're sending XMPP as ASN.1 ;)
[13:55:04] <Zash> That's sorta EXI, isn't it
[13:55:09] <intosi> Zash: it is.
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[14:33:01] <moparisthebest> zinid: no no I said admins that clueless should get another career, I stand by that statement hehe
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[14:39:01] <Guus> My kid just picked out a new bicycle.
[14:39:08] <Guus> https://xmpp.igniterealtime.org:7483/httpfileupload/72bb37ec-a082-473c-9d00-e5a37eaa5b32/oTRaUDqyTneazojaH3P9og.jpg
[14:39:32] <jonasw> close!
[14:39:36] <Guus> I swear I had nothing to do with it. 😁
[14:39:53] <Zash> Guus: I expect another picture where you've modded that Y to a J
[14:40:00] <edhelas> now you must put a XMPP sticker on it
[14:40:06] <Ge0rG> What Zash said.
[14:43:05] <moparisthebest> Careful about modding it, those Cisco lawyers could be hiding anywhere!
[14:44:32] <Ge0rG> You need to pay 500$ to the XSF, because it is obviously a piece of physical merchandise.
[14:44:38] <Zash> As long as the kid doesn't fancy becoming a courier it should be safe.
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[14:50:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: is there another magic button you need to push for the proto-xep email to happen?
[14:50:42] <edhelas> https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-security-flaws-encryption-group-chats/
[14:50:50] <jonasw>
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[14:51:24] <Ge0rG> edhelas: Shocking!
[14:51:48] <Zash> He who controls the server controls the universe!
[14:52:34] <edhelas> that's why they added e2ee… wait
[14:53:56] <Ge0rG> How is group membership enforced in OMEMO? Is the admin signing the participant key list? Oh, wait. Not defined at all.
[14:54:15] <edhelas> :D
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[14:54:47] <Ge0rG> I think identity management is the weakest link in OMEMO.
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[14:58:58] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, iirc everyone has to be on everyone's contact list
[14:59:20] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's a prerequisite to knowing their keys, except with omemo_for_all
[14:59:25] <Zash> or the omemo key nodes need to be public
[14:59:48] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it's not a security guarantee of any kind, especially if you consider that the roster is owned by the server.
[15:00:14] <zinid> moparisthebest: so I should tell him "choose another career"?
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[15:01:46] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, I *thought* the key had to be trusted too, but maybe not with BTBV not sure
[15:01:56] <moparisthebest> zinid, yes 🙂
[15:02:15] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: so only friends can snoop on friends?
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[15:02:47] <zinid> moparisthebest: very clever
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[15:33:52] <Anu> Hi all. I'll be lurking here for a bit.
[15:34:28] <Ge0rG> Hi Anu!
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[15:42:15] <intosi> Hello, Anu!
[15:42:19] <Anu> Hi
[15:42:48] <jonasw> welcome, Anu
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[15:43:33] <Guus> if you lurk long enough, we'll ask you to do the dishes though.
[15:43:40] <Anu> hahah
[15:44:19] <Anu> Sorry, old irc habit. join a channel and watch a little before jumping in.
[15:44:29] <daniel> Anu, probably introduce yourself very quickly. i'm not sure everyone recognizes you by name. (I only figured that out myself because you contact me 1:1)
[15:45:26] <Guus> I was going to say that IRC is so 1999 - but that's probably not old enough :)
[15:45:36] <Kev> I still actively use IRC now :p
[15:45:40] <jonasw> Anu, in general, a good habit I think :)
[15:45:41] <Holger> XMPP is 1999 ...
[15:45:42] <Zash> 80's something?
[15:45:55] <Anu> I was talking on IRC during the gulf war..
[15:46:03] <Zash> Oh but apparently with IRCv3 they've got JSON and all the features
[15:46:26] <moparisthebest> yea but it's like MIX
[15:46:34] <daniel> which one?
[15:46:35] <moparisthebest> all spec'd out and no one in sight wants to implement it
[15:46:42] <Anu> I should properly introduce myself. I am Anu Pokharel, I develop Monal for iOS and OSX
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[15:47:44] <Anu> 1990 gulf war
[15:47:55] <Guus> good to have you hear, Anu (we'll still ask you to do the dishes, eventually)
[15:49:53] <Ge0rG> Anu: actually it's awesome to have you here. Now we can complain even more about Monal ;-)
[15:49:56] <MattJ> After the Board decides which dishes to wash first
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[15:51:20] <Anu> complaints mean people use it i guess. :)
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[15:54:09] <Ge0rG> Anu: actually I have a hobby of installing XMPP software and flooding the developers with issue reports.
[15:54:37] <MattJ> :'(
[15:54:52] <intosi> Anu: Ge0rG isn't joking.
[15:55:12] <Anu> Oh i know, Ive seen the bugs that hes sent me
[15:55:16] <intosi> ;)
[15:55:40] <moparisthebest> if it wasn't for Ge0rG and Link Mauve no XMPP software would have any issues
[15:55:45] <moparisthebest> at least, reported issues
[15:55:50] <Anu> It's great. I've come to really appreciate people who test code for me.
[15:56:24] <Ge0rG> https://github.com/anurodhp/Monal/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+author%3Age0rg - way too few, if compared with prosody or poezio.
[15:56:38] <Ge0rG> But on the other hand, I'm not actively using the iPhone, it's just a dev device.
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[15:56:55] <mathieuii> at least Anu is safe, Link Mauve has no apple device
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[15:57:20] <Anu> I'm halfway through porting all the iOS code to a mac UI.
[15:57:28] <Anu> I hope to get more bugs then
[15:57:45] <marc> Anu, screenshots of your App would be nice
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[15:59:04] <Ge0rG> Anu: in Monal/iOS I see many of my offline contacts listed multiple times. Restarting the app fixes it though.
[15:59:58] <Ge0rG> Anu: also, do you have a beta channel / testflight?
[16:00:34] <Anu> Ge0rG, yeah its a bug in one my sql queries. Yes, I do send me your apple id. I need more people testing the next update prior to release
[16:01:29] <Anu> Also, please file a bug for that if there isnt already one so i can make sure its fixed
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[16:08:02] <pep.> marc, jonasw, good to see the XEP up :)
[16:08:27] <marc> pep., you forgot to mention Ge0rG :)
[16:08:39] <jonasw> I just hit the "merge" and "send" buttons
[16:08:42] <jonasw> (and even screwed up the merge)
[16:09:33] <pep.> Ge0rG, ^
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[16:12:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: squash & merge?
[16:13:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, nah, more like "first ask for IPR signature, then merge" :)
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[16:14:03] <marc> jonasw, actually I don't understand why you merged it into master right now
[16:14:16] <jonasw> marc, why not?
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[16:15:08] <marc> jonasw, I try to keep my master branches clean
[16:15:24] <Kev> But it's in the inbox, no?
[16:15:29] <Kev> So this *is* clean.
[16:15:50] <Kev> The inbox holds protoXEPs submitted for approval, but not yet Experimental.
[16:15:52] <marc> I'm talking about Git commit history
[16:16:11] <pep.> marc, I don't think there's any issue with pushing early to master, you commit history is never clean anyway
[16:16:25] <marc> pep., my is :D
[16:16:38] <pep.> How many rebase and push force does that take you
[16:16:41] <Kev> I think I don't understand the question. There was a PR requesting this be merged to master, so Jonas did. Isn't that right?
[16:16:44] <jonasw> marc, the only way to make the website update is to push to master
[16:16:50] <jonasw> that might be the bit of info you’re lacking
[16:16:57] <marc> jonasw, ah okay
[16:17:03] <pep.> plus yeah it doesn't apply here
[16:17:10] <marc> Didn't think about the website
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[16:23:58] <Guus> > Ge0rG: Anu: actually I have a hobby of installing XMPP software and flooding the developers with issue
[16:24:01] <Guus> I feel neglected.
[16:24:24] <Guus> (as I'm pretty sure mine has most bugs of all :P )
[16:24:35] <Anu> Guus, do you have an iOS device, want to test monal ?
[16:24:50] <Guus> Anu: sorry, android
[16:25:15] <Guus> (although I was referring to the lack of issue flood from Ge0rG)
[16:25:40] <Ge0rG> Guus: sorry, my time is limited.
[16:30:19] <Guus> (test)
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[16:47:13] <Ge0rG> Damn, my iPhone won't get detected by my VirtualBox.
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[16:47:39] <moparisthebest> probably have to do USB passthrough or something?
[16:48:02] <Ge0rG> Yes. But it doesn't work.
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[16:55:14] <pep.> marc, Ge0rG, any reason why ad-hoc and not say <iq/>?
[16:55:30] <jonasw> pep., ad-hoc allows use from clients which don’t support the protocol yet
[16:55:32] <pep.> Does many client support ad-hoc already?
[16:55:36] <jonasw> sure
[16:55:40] <jonasw> even pidgin(!) does
[16:55:41] <pep.> Do
[16:55:45] <jonasw> gajim does, poezio does
[16:55:50] <pep.> Conversations? Dino
[16:55:53] <jonasw> dunno about those
[16:56:02] <pep.> yaxim
[16:56:05] <jonasw> but you can always implement a specific ad-hoc flow without implementing all of ad-hoc or a generic ad-hoc UI
[16:56:16] <jonasw> so if there’s interest in this thing, I guess that wouldn’t be a blocker
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[16:57:03] <moparisthebest> conversations definitly no, dino I think not
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[16:57:16] <Ge0rG> pep.: yaxim doesn't. But I'd for sure add support for the user-invite command
[16:57:18] <pep.> jonasw, I'm not sure I get your point about clients not supporting the protocol yet
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[16:57:57] <jonasw> pep., if you invent a protocol based on non ad-hoc <iq/>s, *all* clients have to be updated to be able to use it.
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[16:58:26] <jonasw> pep., if you use ad-hoc, clients which already have ad-hoc support can use the protocol right away.
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[16:58:29] <pep.> Well here all clients have to implement ad-hoc
[16:58:31] <pep.> first
[16:58:36] <jonasw> no
[16:58:41] <Ge0rG> pep.: your clients are bad then :P
[16:58:47] <pep.> If they want to use this
[16:58:49] <jonasw> no
[16:58:52] <pep.> no?
[16:59:06] <jonasw> they could always just implement handling for that specific command, without running a full-blown ad-hoc implementation
[16:59:13] <jonasw> (which is simpler)
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[16:59:35] <pep.> Which would be the same as handling this specific command via iqs?
[17:00:00] <jonasw> exatcly
[17:00:03] <Ge0rG> pep.: yes, except that now there are already clients that support this
[17:00:22] <Ge0rG> so for a client not yet supporting ad-hoc, it doesn't matter. And for clients supporting ad-hoc, they get it for free
[17:00:30] <jonasw> yupp
[17:00:34] <jonasw> and that’s the beauty of it
[17:01:20] <pep.> Ok, I'm just trying to understand here. So we should start implementing everything via ad-hoc commands right
[17:01:32] <jonasw> no
[17:01:36] <jonasw> not everything makes sense as an ad-hoc command
[17:01:44] <jonasw> MAM for example; the result wouldn’t be very useful for a user
[17:02:00] <jonasw> (ad-hoc commands are only useful if the result doesn’t need to be interpreted by the client in any way, but only by the user)
[17:02:11] <jonasw> roster wouldn’t make any sense either, a client needs proper support for a roster for it to be useful.
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[17:02:26] <pep.> hmm
[17:02:33] <mathieuii> jonasw, there are the server admin commands XEP which can be singled out by the client
[17:02:40] <jonasw> mathieuii, sure
[17:02:52] <jonasw> a client can always additionally implement fancy additional support for a given Ad-Hoc Command
[17:03:01] <jonasw> but the command has to work well even without specific support
[17:04:01] <mathieuii> yeah, sure
[17:06:51] <pep.> Will the ad-hoc command be versioned or something?
[17:07:12] <pep.> If now a client want to special-case it and the XEP gets updated, you now broke everything
[17:07:29] <jonasw> pep., there are specific rules how unknown fields are treated in forms
[17:07:35] <pep.> And lost all the interest of using ad-hoc
[17:07:37] <jonasw> if the XEP updates adhere to that, there should be no issues
[17:07:46] <pep.> k
[17:08:01] <jonasw> (and a client could fallback to the default ad-hoc handling (if it has some))
[17:08:18] <pep.> that's a lot of ifs
[17:08:30] <jonasw> sure
[17:08:33] <jonasw> things are worse with IQs though
[17:08:49] <jonasw> if you make an update to a raw IQ protocol, this is (usually) a namespace bump, breaking the flow for everyone
[17:08:51] <jonasw> (until the next update)
[17:09:06] <pep.> yeah, but you don't end-up with UB
[17:09:18] <pep.> Or defined-but-if-if-if
[17:09:34] <Ge0rG> pep.: XMPP is full of defined-but-if-if-if
[17:09:41] <pep.> yeah :/
[17:09:51] <jonasw> pep., it’s fully defined
[17:10:02] <jonasw> but in addition to the defined behaviour, you can also play safe and fall back to generic ad-hoc handling.
[17:10:05] <pep.> But it depends if X has support for Y and Z and
[17:10:39] <pep.> But gotcha
[17:10:40] <jonasw> no, if you supported an earlier version (okay, here’s one "if": and *if* the people updating the XEP didn’t do something stupid), that’ll continue to work
[17:11:27] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the Council should prevent them from doing stupid things
[17:11:50] <pep.> Yeah I think I would prefer to have it versioned and break cleanly with a major update if needed, instead of wanting to stay backward-compatible until the end of times
[17:11:57] <pep.> At costs
[17:12:58] <Ge0rG> pep.: you can always introduce a different command name.
[17:13:07] <Ge0rG> pep.: which is exactly like a namespace bump
[17:13:11] <pep.> invite2
[17:13:14] <jonasw> Ge0rG, heh, yes, but that doesn’t always happen :)
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[17:19:13] <pep.> small remark, there doesn't seem to be in 0050 anything that restrict command name usage. Server could be using a conflicting command name, knowing that ad-hoc commands are often used in non-specified environments as I understand it
[17:19:32] <pep.> Though it's the same remark for server admin commands
[17:19:43] <Ge0rG> pep.: yes. namespacing commands is a thin
[17:19:44] <Ge0rG> +g
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[18:03:04] <Ge0rG> marc: just stumbled upon https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html#nt-idm138620103579920
> In accordance with Section 3.2.2.1 of XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes, the allowable lexical representations for the xs:boolean datatype are the strings "0" and "false" for the concept 'false' and the strings "1" and "true" for the concept 'true'; implementations MUST support both styles of lexical representation.
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[18:05:15] <moparisthebest> ew
[18:05:32] <moparisthebest> why not T and F and Y and N also
[18:05:51] <moparisthebest> I mean if you are going down that rabbit hole, might as well see how deep
[18:07:13] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it's merely about whether ibr= should be `true`, `1` or `y`
[18:07:35] <Ge0rG> I'm not keen on inventing new protocol, just making the xmpp: URI as short as possible
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[18:24:48] <Ge0rG> So, how does XEP-0153 work in a MUC? You send the vcard get IQ to the participant full JID, and it gets forwarded to the user full JID? Intercepted by the user's account?
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[18:29:25] <MattJ> To the user bare JID, intercepted by the MUC
[18:29:46] <Ge0rG> MattJ: forwarded to the bare JID?
[18:29:51] <MattJ> Yes
[18:30:09] <MattJ> MUC service handles everything addressed to participant JIDs
[18:30:15] <Ge0rG> Because sending the IQ get to the MUC bare JID won't work out very well
[18:31:31] <MattJ> What "handling" means isn't greatly defined, but a sensible MUC service will handle vcard requests by proxying to the user's bare JID
[18:31:45] <Ge0rG> is there a XEP for that?
[18:31:50] <MattJ> nafaik
[18:31:58] <MattJ> It's just an implementation thing
[18:32:10] <Ge0rG> Isn't that what XEPs are made for?
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[18:32:24] <MattJ> The MUC service could return a service-specific vcard (e.g. you have a muc.xmpp.org profile)
[18:32:31] <MattJ> and still be compliant
[18:32:38] <MattJ> unless someone can prove me wrong :)
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[18:39:59] <Ge0rG> MattJ: thanks very much. That helped me better understand the problem space. I hope I was able to make a useful suggestion for pep-vcard-conversion now
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[18:56:54] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: is the issuer name "XMPP" in totp-2fa an example or a normative constant?
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[20:54:50] <marc> Ge0rG, what's the "problem" or why do you mention this?
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[20:59:13] <daniel> > Because sending the IQ get to the MUC bare JID won't work out very well
Why not? Isn't that where you disco#info to as well?
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