XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-01-26


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  93. Ge0rG Fortunately, MUC is easy to implement. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message
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  98. goffi Do we have any XEP/way to do item ordering beside using a specific element (e.g. <order>123</order>) and a MAM query?
  99. goffi I don't think so, but just in case I've missed something
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  305. SaltyBones So, why is it that a group chat with jabber doesn't give me the messages that I missed when I come back online?
  306. SaltyBones It seems there are some related mechanisms in place.
  307. MattJ There are two mechanisms for that
  308. SaltyBones And of course for some sorts of chat rooms in doesn't really make sense...
  309. moparisthebest SaltyBones: it does if mam is enabled on the muc
  310. jonasw moparisthebest, and the client supports it.
  311. SaltyBones *and you don't want crypto*
  312. jonasw that’s false
  313. moparisthebest SaltyBones: nope works fine with crypto
  314. jonasw OMEMO should work fine with archives
  315. SaltyBones That's what I heard. :)
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  317. jonasw OTR won’t
  318. moparisthebest Also pgp
  319. jonasw gpg too, yes
  320. moparisthebest Otr doesn't work in mucs at all
  321. SaltyBones jonasw, but then the archive will contain the decrypted messages or something, right?
  322. moparisthebest No
  323. jonasw SaltyBones, no
  324. SaltyBones Hm.
  325. SaltyBones So what you're saying is: Everything should totally work. :)
  326. jonasw iff both client and server support MAM
  327. moparisthebest and it's enabled on the muc
  328. SaltyBones I am currently trying to figure that out.
  329. SaltyBones But neither gajim nor conversations seem to be very helpful. :)
  330. zinid And what about forward secrecy?
  331. SaltyBones zinid, probably broken, cannot imagine any other way
  332. moparisthebest no, that depends on encryption method
  333. moparisthebest none with pgp, works as expected with omemo
  334. SaltyBones are there any clients that can display if a muc has mam or is that serverside info only?
  335. moparisthebest that is, each device can decrypt each message exactly once
  336. moparisthebest clients know, not sure if any display
  337. zinid How will you decode a message from archive encrypted with forward secrecy?
  338. moparisthebest (they have to know to know whether they can mam query or not)
  339. SaltyBones wait is mam not the same as server side history?
  340. moparisthebest as MattJ said there are 2 methods so depending what you mean probably not
  341. moparisthebest you want mam though, the other isn't guaranteed to be complete
  342. SaltyBones there are two MAMs?
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  344. Ge0rG who wants forward secrecy anyway?
  345. Ge0rG it's even worse than cryptographic deniability.
  346. moparisthebest dissidents so I hear
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  348. SaltyBones Ge0rG, almost nobody but a lot of people want it on principle, including me. :)
  349. moparisthebest forward secrecy is actually useful unlike deniability imho
  350. Ge0rG SaltyBones: a lot of people have no clue.
  351. MattJ SaltyBones, method #1 is a simple cache of recent messages in the room. The MUC tends to send it to you by default, though clients can (and do) filter it
  352. Ge0rG https://dymaxion.org/essays/pleasestop.html - "Please Stop Writing Secure Messaging Tools"
  353. moparisthebest point being it works fine with muc + mam
  354. moparisthebest Ge0rG, clearly written by NSA plant
  355. MattJ SaltyBones, it's almost universal, but doesn't actually need client support - the recent messages are always just sent to you (most servers default to 20 or so)
  356. SaltyBones Ge0rG, I would agree if I thought that one of them was good enough.
  357. moparisthebest s/NSA/GOV_OF_YOUR_CHOICE_HERE/
  358. MattJ SaltyBones, which is enough to get some context on an ongoing conversation
  359. SaltyBones MattJ, yeah, that mechanism is pretty obvious in gajim...
  360. Ge0rG OMEMO is bad because you can't bind a cryptographic identity to a JID in any strong way.
  361. MattJ SaltyBones, there's a second method (MAM), which requires explicit client and server (i.e. MUC server) support, and supports fine-grained sync, ensuring that you can achieve a full sync of all messages that happened while you were out of the room
  362. jonasw MattJ, unless the server keeps CSN and other useless things in the history ;-)
  363. MattJ One client's useless is another client's treasure
  364. SaltyBones Ge0rG, I think that article is mostly crap but I would be interested in discussing. ;)
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  366. moparisthebest > Ge0rG: OMEMO is bad because you can't bind a cryptographic identity to a JID in any strong way.
  367. moparisthebest uh and what ways do allow you to do that?
  368. moparisthebest I think, none actually
  369. Ge0rG moparisthebest: things like TOX, where your ID is your public key
  370. moparisthebest that's fine if you are talking about an entirely different protocol
  371. Zash Something something triangle
  372. moparisthebest that eats battery and is unsuitable for mobile
  373. SaltyBones IBE requires a trusted third party which I find generally undesirable
  374. Ge0rG Zash: something something blockchain
  375. SaltyBones BLOCKCHAIN!
  376. SaltyBones The funny thing is, blockchain derivates are actually usefull for PKI
  377. moparisthebest I can feel my synergies aligning already, lets get an IPO and some angel funding asap
  378. SaltyBones Hm...I am totally in the mood for discussing everything but I have to get some more work done. :/
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  380. zinid moparisthebest: I think it's possible to avoid battery consumption with help from very simple relays
  381. moparisthebest I call those xmpp servers :P
  382. moparisthebest though, not simple
  383. zinid moparisthebest: "simple"
  384. Ge0rG https://www.wired.com/story/mobilecoin-cryptocurrency/
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  386. moparisthebest let me fix that title s/The Creator of Signal Has a Plan to Fix Cryptocurrency/The Creator of Signal Has a Plan to Finish Construction of His Money Fort/
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  388. SaltyBones cryptocurrencies are bullshit :p
  389. zinid moparisthebest: but I'm told he is a hero, you're just jealous
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  395. Ge0rG moparisthebest, SaltyBones: seriously though: OMEMO is attempting to work around the problem that JIDs are not cryptographic entities, and there will never be a perfect alignment of them.
  396. Ge0rG if you want E2EE without meta data leaks, XMPP is not the right tool. Have a look at something like https://briarproject.org/ instead.
  397. Ge0rG If you want XMPP, just give up hiding your metadata and accept reality.
  398. Ge0rG And once you've realized that, the added benefit of E2EE is minuscule.
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  400. SaltyBones The benefit of e2e is miniscule when there is metadata leakage?
  401. SaltyBones I completely disagree. :)
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  406. jonasw I’d argue that the benefit of e2ee should be miniscule since ideally we had friends&family servers exclusively
  407. MattJ Agreed
  408. MattJ I don't think it's completely pointless in any scenario, but trusted servers buys you a whole lot more
  409. SaltyBones That's an interesting point...
  410. SouL This will not be the case, at least in a not-soon future D:
  411. MattJ On the other hand some people really value anonymity, which goes in completely the other direction - we should just have an internet full of servers, random JIDs and use E2EE for identity proof and encryption
  412. SaltyBones Given that most murders are committed by spouses or whatever maybe friends and family servers should be less trusted. :)
  413. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so if I know my wife's password and lock screen pattern, she's still safe, right?
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  415. Ge0rG also related: https://dymaxion.org/essays/usecases.html
  416. SaltyBones It's not a good idea to argue against securing one part of a system because another part of the system might be insecure. If your wife has an affair maybe she will change her lock screen pattern...
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  418. Ge0rG SaltyBones: in that case I can beat her up. (playing the devil's advocate here, obviously)
  419. Ge0rG SaltyBones: also I can still see which JIDs are on her roster.
  420. Ge0rG "So, who is sexy_patrick69@swissjabber.li?"
  421. SaltyBones Come on, these are all incredibly weak arguments that you can immediately invalidate by yourself.
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  423. SaltyBones This is not a useful discussion. :)
  424. SaltyBones How do you know you have to beat her up? Just because she changed her lock screen?
  425. Ge0rG SaltyBones: sure
  426. SaltyBones Maybe the guy she s seeing is a colleague from work and it s perfectly normal for them to talk
  427. Ge0rG SaltyBones: how much do you know about abusive partners?
  428. SaltyBones Abusive partners are not the only adversaries and abusive partners probably also come in all sorts of degrees
  429. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so you don't even know the attacker model you want protection from?
  430. SaltyBones I trust my co-admin not to read my messages I still prefer that he simply cannot when I use omemo
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  432. SouL SaltyBones, yeah, I agree.
  433. SouL Even if I don't use OMEMO myself
  434. SaltyBones I have a sufficiently good idea of my attacker model but it's not formally defined ;)
  435. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I don't say that E2EE is generally bad. I merely say that it has a cost attached, and that cost is inability to restore archives, various synchronisation problems (why can't I receive messages) and multi-client woes.
  436. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so for the general audience, OMEMO does more harm than good.
  437. SaltyBones and I also like that even if my server gets owned I can still send account data and scans of legal documents to people without worrying where they might end up
  438. Ge0rG And I even haven't started to talk about the two incompatible flavors of OMEMO.
  439. SaltyBones Ge0rG, oh I completely agree that omemo isn't great but omemo is an implementation of e2e not the definition.
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  442. SaltyBones Actually, gpg probably has much better usability whilst also protecting against the attacker model we just discussed
  443. Ge0rG SaltyBones: don't even get me started about the usability of GPG
  444. SaltyBones :D
  445. SamWhited "gpg probably has much better usability" is not something anyone has ever said with a straight face before :)
  446. SaltyBones only people who haven't tried ;D
  447. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so you haven't tried? Noted.
  448. Ge0rG "But I want OMEMO in the browser, and I want to access my archive!"
  449. SaltyBones No, GPG is death by key management...
  450. Ge0rG SaltyBones: OMEMO is also death by key management..
  451. Ge0rG or death by `adb backup`, which is even worse.
  452. SaltyBones Ge0rG, signal however, is not
  453. SaltyBones and actually omemo works okay
  454. SaltyBones you have to consider that even if you don't ever validate anything it still protects agains passive adversaries
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  457. Ge0rG SaltyBones: against passive adversaries who have admin access to your server and want to know more than just your metadata.
  458. Ge0rG and then it's just a command or two to add another key to your identity.
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  460. SaltyBones Yes, and a warning will pop-up that you can chose to not ignore and also they cannot read the history...
  461. Ge0rG My problem really is that with OMEMO, you have 3+x identities: your JID, your username, and a number of device keys.
  462. SaltyBones And that's total shit, I agree.
  463. Ge0rG My problem really is that with OMEMO, you have 3+x identities: your JID, your display name, and a number of device keys.
  464. Ge0rG and those aren't linked in any cryptographically significant way.
  465. SaltyBones Actually, I don't care much about JID and username...but there should only be one key
  466. SaltyBones Hm..what kind of linking are you thinking about?
  467. MattJ One key => key management becomes a real pain
  468. MattJ In the real world, people lose their phones
  469. Zash One key per what?
  470. Ge0rG MattJ: yeah, but what about key cross-signing. If I buy a new device before the previous one is broken, I sign my new key with the old one and my friends auto-trust it
  471. SaltyBones yeah, that
  472. MattJ if
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  474. Ge0rG Is the JID encoded in the public key cert?
  475. Ge0rG or can I use the same OMEMO key on different JIDs?
  476. Zash What we need is more X.509!
  477. Ge0rG what's my identity? The JID or the pubkey?
  478. SaltyBones Zash, wait here I'll get my pitch fork.
  479. MattJ On the one hand you're talking about making XMPP easier to use. On the other hand you're talking about asking family members to perform key cross-signing
  480. Zash What is identity?
  481. MattJ Your identity is the JID, simple
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  484. MattJ So just keep it that way
  485. SaltyBones gngngngn
  486. SaltyBones what
  487. SaltyBones stop
  488. SaltyBones the identity is the key!
  489. SaltyBones :)
  490. Ge0rG MattJ: "scan your old device with your new device to auto-configure your jabbers"
  491. MattJ Ge0rG, the old device is broken, stolen or lost
  492. Holger Ge0rG: I do WHAT?!
  493. Holger Ge0rG: Can't we just use WhatsApp please?! That just works!!!
  494. SaltyBones Yeah, or just get a pop-up: "You want to add a new device. Please confirm!" on the old phone
  495. Ge0rG SaltyBones: yeah
  496. MattJ 90% of the phone upgrades in my family have been in response to breakage, loss or theft - not planned upgrades
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  498. SaltyBones MattJ, that's fine then just let them also create a new key....
  499. Ge0rG MattJ: now we are back to the attacker model. Are we talking about trust-by-default in the general population or about secure messaging for dissidents?
  500. MattJ I'm talking about the general population
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  502. Ge0rG "Where's my chat history???"
  503. MattJ Niche markets will help themselves, they always do
  504. Ge0rG E2EE just doesn't work for family chats.
  505. Zash Trust in the server, the server is good.
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  507. Ge0rG that's the next thing. The server can completely strip out the OMEMO identification on your comms. What then?
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  510. MattJ Use a different server and/or don't communicate
  511. MattJ This is not a novel problem
  512. MattJ Routers can (and in some cases do) drop TLS handshake packets
  513. Ge0rG Yes, but OMEMO isn't mandatory on XMPP :P
  514. jonasw Ge0rG, e2ee seems to work for whatsapp tohugh
  515. SaltyBones And signal
  516. SaltyBones and for my bloody family even omemo works ;)
  517. Holger Because no verification. And no PEP!
  518. SaltyBones of course I just tell them to shut up when they complain ;)
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  520. Kev jonasw: "works" is relative, though.
  521. jonasw Kev, inhowfar?
  522. SaltyBones Holger, PEP?
  523. Kev In as much as the whatsapp multiaccount story is far worse than XMPP's, and I hate losing messages, and etc.
  524. Holger SaltyBones: Well OMEMO uses PEP for distribution of pubkeys, and that keeps falling apart.
  525. Ge0rG jonasw: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatsapp/comments/68sgmx/google_drive_backup_encrypted/
  526. Kev (Plus the recent vulnerabilities in it)
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  538. jonasw whatsapp loses messages?
  539. jonasw that’s new to me
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  541. Kev It does when you lose your phone.
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  543. SaltyBones hehehe
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  606. pep. https://www.reddit.com/r/whatsapp/comments/68sgmx/google_drive_backup_encrypted/dh1w7j3/ "This is where you are wrong"
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  608. Zash -xkcd 538
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  610. pep. heh, I had never seen the alt comment
  611. Zash Bunneh: Meh
  612. Zash Where is your wrench now?
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  644. moparisthebest even in the case of trusted servers, I guess all servers are secure and all software well configured? that's not exactly the impression I get
  645. moparisthebest my xmpp server is in a closet in my house that I'm pretty confident is physically secure, and I like to consider myself competent enough security-wise that no one can hack in, but everyone makes mistakes, and no doubt some software has bugs
  646. moparisthebest e2e protects against that too
  647. moparisthebest even just the passive BTBV variants
  648. ralphm has joined
  649. Holger Eww all your stanzas pass through a closet?
  650. moparisthebest they do :)
  651. Holger Oh the dictionary says "closet" != "toilet".
  652. Holger Ah the dictionary says there's both meanings :-)
  653. Holger The German "Klosett" is always a toilet.
  654. moparisthebest hmm never heard of that meaning, language, fun stuff
  655. moparisthebest I mean where you'd normally hang clothes in a bedroom :)
  656. Holger That's ok then :-)
  657. jjrh has left
  658. moparisthebest though, an xmpp server inside a toilet would be EXTRA physically secure
  659. moparisthebest I mean, you can grab it, if you want to, be my guest
  660. zinid moparisthebest, secure enough if you have no friends
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  665. moparisthebest I just got around to reading your "Please Stop Writing Secure Message Tools" blog thing Ge0rG https://dymaxion.org/essays/pleasestop.html
  666. moparisthebest but it seems like, don't write them unless they check all these boxes
  667. moparisthebest and xmpp checks every single box
  668. moparisthebest except it could maybe deal with a little less metadata, but even then, it's scattered all over vs in one silo
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  671. Zash something something threat model
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  673. moparisthebest that crap where if the NSA isn't after you you don't need encryption is just that, crap, everyone needs privacy
  674. lskdjf has left
  675. moparisthebest and if it's a little less user friendly than not encrypted, work on that, see letsencrypt for example
  676. zinid moparisthebest, do those people dumping their lives in instagram need privacy too?
  677. zinid privacy is a broad term
  678. moparisthebest sure, you choose what you want public or not
  679. lskdjf has left
  680. pep. zinid, maybe they live double lives, and one of them is protecting the other by sending crap on instagram!!
  681. zinid who knows
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  684. Holger moparisthebest: If someone says he doesn't like Bananas that's crap, everyone does!
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  689. moparisthebest that would be a preference vs a statement of fact I guess
  690. Holger Sure sure.
  691. zinid "everyone needs privacy" sounds like a statement of fact ;)
  692. zinid the problem is in definition of privacy
  693. moparisthebest it's identical to the TLS vs plaintext debate honestly
  694. moparisthebest and that seems fairly settled nowadays that everything needs to be TLS doesn't it?
  695. Holger It's not identical in the case of TLS for c2s.
  696. moparisthebest a valid argument is/was that TLS is harder than plaintext, has useability problems etc etc
  697. Holger At least not when using PLAIN SASL.
  698. zinid moparisthebest, TLS is slow shit, I use plain http wherever possible
  699. moparisthebest haha but you are wrong
  700. moparisthebest TLS is faster in many cases nowadays
  701. Zash It's not "everyone needs privacy", it's > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
  702. Zash It's a human right. Whatever the of privacy is.
  703. zinid moparisthebest, sure, you know better
  704. Zash It's a human right. Whatever the definition of privacy is.
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  706. moparisthebest zinid, don't take my word for it https://www.troyhunt.com/i-wanna-go-fast-https-massive-speed-advantage/ https://istlsfastyet.com/
  707. moparisthebest plain http today is slower than https, there is no debate about it
  708. zinid that's why I use http on some sites, I'm just blind and cannot see how https is much faster
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  710. Zash but is it fast enough to counteract the ever increasing bloat?
  711. lskdjf has left
  712. Zash ... no, it just encourages more bloat
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  714. Zash can't have fast things
  715. moparisthebest says a guy who enjoys shuffling XML streams around... :)
  716. Zash pretty sure my messages aren't in the order of megabytes
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  718. SamWhited neither are my webpages; they're still ~20% faster if I'm using TLS.
  719. waqas I've been browsing with JS disabled, or selectively first-party-only enabled, and it has been a pretty great experience.
  720. zinid my 1-hour poezio's XML log is 300kb, horrible bloat
  721. SamWhited Oh, TLS won't speed anything up on XMPP, but it's not slow either. Basicaly negligable.
  722. zinid and here come servers where you need twice RAM to support TLS connections
  723. SamWhited You really don't
  724. SamWhited Machines are optimized for it these days; TLS's extra resource use is basically negligable unless you have a much bigger server than I think you do.
  725. moparisthebest even google, which has servers way bigger than any xmpp deployment, says it's essentially no overhead
  726. zinid ever tried to connect 1M of XMPP sessions?
  727. moparisthebest and that was years ago
  728. zinid with TLS or without
  729. moparisthebest TLS
  730. Zash You are both wrong. More than negligable, but not double memory consumption.
  731. Zash TLS handshakes are quite the CPU hog too.
  732. zinid moparisthebest, because HTTP doesn't have long-lived connections
  733. moparisthebest the long lived part really is 0 overhead
  734. zinid yeah, sure ;)
  735. moparisthebest any overhead is just on setup, so from that perspective, http over TLS is more overhead than xmpp over TLS
  736. moparisthebest and since https isn't a problem, xmpps certainly isn't
  737. zinid even nginx author says it's about 50k-100k overhead per connection
  738. moparisthebest zinid, I mean you were right in 2005 for sure, maybe even 2008 or whatever, whenever aes-ni became a thing
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  740. zinid there is a recent issue in our bugtracker where a guy complaining about huge memory consumption when TLS is enabled
  741. zinid 30Gb overhead
  742. zinid on 1M connections
  743. zinid but, possible, 30Gb is nothing for google
  744. moparisthebest is that a public bugtracker? sounds interesting
  745. zinid sure
  746. zinid it's on github issues, but I'm too lazy to find it, anyway, Holger will not let me lie, he laughed at the issue too ;)
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  748. SamWhited What's the total memory usage?
  749. moparisthebest iirc when google forced https for gmail the usage increase was like 1.2% and that was pre-http2
  750. moparisthebest can't actually find that right now...
  751. zinid SamWhited, 70Gb or so, I don't remember actually
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  753. moparisthebest https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2062
  754. moparisthebest is that it?
  755. zinid yes
  756. moparisthebest impressive
  757. moparisthebest how much memory does the rest of a connection take?
  758. moparisthebest what % is 50kb
  759. zinid it's highly depends on usage, roster size and so on
  760. zinid *it
  761. SamWhited That does seem high; 50k of overhead per connection is much more than I've ever seen; not sure what that could be.
  762. moparisthebest if a non-tls session takes 1mb of ram and tls adds 50kb, that's 0.09% increase?
  763. zinid I think he counted wrong, I'm trying to calculate now and I get numbers far above 90Gb if I do 2Mx50kb
  764. moparisthebest yea that's true
  765. zinid anyway, 50-100kb is a typical overhead I see in stress tests, so...
  766. Zash https://www.zash.se/prosody-graphs.html .... is that like 15kb/conn for tls? I might have forgotten how to read those graphs
  767. Zash Dat CPU usage tho
  768. moparisthebest but really the % matters, if that's only a 0.09% increase well...
  769. zinid moparisthebest, that's not 0.09% increase, in production we offload TLS because huge RAM machines are expensive, so we split the RAM between the machines
  770. Holger First random Google hit: > OpenSSL tends to allocate about 50KB of mem­ory for each connection. https://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html
  771. zinid why would we do this crazy shit if there was negligible overhead?
  772. Zash Something something release buffers?
  773. moparisthebest how much do you allocate for a regular XMPP connection though is what I'm wondering
  774. zinid Zash, the option is set
  775. moparisthebest my hunch is it's so much more than 50kb that 50kb is negligble
  776. Holger Isn't that option for freeing memory on *idle* connections?
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  780. zinid moparisthebest, for empty roster c2s it's no more than 50kb in fact
  781. Holger moparisthebest: On the two servers I'm involved with it's about 300k, but those are with all bells and whistles enabled (MAM and whatnot), so it's probably less elsewhere.
  782. zinid It's really hard to say, because there is a crazy garbage collector in Erlang doing some weird shit
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  784. zinid not to mention how great openssl is when you try to connect 2M :)
  785. zinid you need to patch it, or else it will spend most of the time in locks on a machine with a lot of CPUs
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