Monday, January 29, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
January
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
       
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:05:37] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:27:45] *** uc has joined the room
[00:29:53] *** uc has left the room
[00:30:04] *** uc has joined the room
[00:36:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:39:52] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[00:41:58] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:44:34] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:47:33] *** jere has joined the room
[00:52:10] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:58:39] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:03:52] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:12:50] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:18:53] *** daniel has left the room
[01:23:30] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:23:30] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:28:36] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:29:25] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[01:35:32] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:35:35] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[02:00:18] *** tux has left the room
[02:00:18] *** tux has joined the room
[02:19:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[02:21:16] *** jere has joined the room
[02:36:31] *** jere has left the room
[03:39:08] *** Syndace has left the room
[03:39:12] *** Syndace has joined the room
[04:00:37] *** hannes has left the room
[04:00:37] *** hannes has joined the room
[04:26:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:26:21] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[04:26:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:26:32] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[04:33:05] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[04:34:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:34:41] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[04:34:42] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:34:49] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[05:04:20] *** @Alacer has left the room
[05:04:27] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[05:18:12] *** uc has left the room
[05:18:22] *** uc has joined the room
[05:26:06] *** intosi has left the room
[05:29:19] *** intosi has joined the room
[05:30:21] *** suzyo has joined the room
[05:37:15] *** sezuan has joined the room
[05:47:18] *** efrit has left the room
[06:17:18] *** @Alacer has left the room
[06:17:46] *** goffi has joined the room
[06:50:29] *** hannes has left the room
[06:57:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:00:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:00:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[07:01:52] *** lumi has joined the room
[07:01:54] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:01:57] *** intosi shows as "online"
[07:06:33] *** ralphm has left the room
[07:07:21] *** hannes has joined the room
[07:08:36] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:13:06] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:22:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:28:47] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:29:55] *** Guus has left the room
[07:29:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:33:26] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[07:40:22] *** Guus has left the room
[07:43:33] *** remko has joined the room
[07:43:33] *** remko shows as "online"
[07:45:21] *** zinid shows as "online"
[07:45:45] *** zinid has left the room
[07:46:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:46:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:48:49] *** jjrh has left the room
[07:49:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[07:50:07] *** jjrh has left the room
[07:50:11] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[07:51:14] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:51:23] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:54:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:57:00] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[07:57:00] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[07:59:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:00:08] *** lumi shows as "online"
[08:04:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:04:52] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[08:10:23] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:10:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:17:31] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:18:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:18:41] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[08:19:37] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[08:19:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:24:15] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[08:25:28] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[08:29:07] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:32:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:35:28] *** daniel has joined the room
[08:36:30] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:38:06] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:38:35] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:38:45] *** remko shows as "away"
[08:40:37] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:40:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:40:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:41:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:41:06] *** matlag has left the room
[08:43:05] *** remko shows as "online"
[08:47:53] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:50:01] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[08:50:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[08:50:40] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:52:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:53:53] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[08:54:35] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[08:54:53] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:54:55] *** sezuan has left the room
[08:55:07] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:55:54] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[08:59:21] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:00:36] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[09:00:55] *** Kev shows as "online"
[09:01:56] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[09:02:33] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:03:24] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:05:34] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:06:01] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:07:11] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[09:11:15] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:12:21] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[09:12:31] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:12:40] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:15:18] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[09:15:28] *** hannes has joined the room
[09:16:48] *** hannes has left the room
[09:22:45] *** ralphm has joined the room
[09:25:42] *** hannes has joined the room
[09:28:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:28:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:32:18] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:32:57] *** Guus has left the room
[09:32:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:33:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:34:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:36:28] *** uc has joined the room
[09:37:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:41:58] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:43:22] *** Guus has left the room
[09:45:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:47:09] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:53:33] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:55:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:57:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:57:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:59:11] *** jonasw has left the room
[10:02:08] *** jubalh has joined the room
[10:10:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:12:01] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:14:47] *** jubalh has joined the room
[10:17:39] *** Tobias has left the room
[10:20:49] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[10:21:15] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:25:03] *** intosi shows as "online"
[10:26:11] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:28:22] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:33:07] *** waqas has joined the room
[10:34:04] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[10:36:51] *** winfried has left the room
[10:36:54] *** winfried has joined the room
[10:41:14] *** uc has joined the room
[10:42:18] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:42:18] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:46:41] *** ralphm has joined the room
[10:49:00] *** waqas has left the room
[10:49:56] *** intosi shows as "online"
[10:52:34] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:56:23] *** winfried has joined the room
[10:58:12] *** hannes has joined the room
[10:58:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:59:13] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[11:01:05] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[11:01:06] *** blabla has joined the room
[11:01:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:03:26] *** jubalh has joined the room
[11:16:06] *** valo has joined the room
[11:17:27] *** Guus has left the room
[11:17:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:17:48] *** remko shows as "away"
[11:22:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:28:22] *** Guus has left the room
[11:30:17] *** lumi has left the room
[11:30:21] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:30:51] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[11:32:14] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:33:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:35:14] *** lumi has joined the room
[11:35:19] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:36:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:39:20] *** lumi has left the room
[11:39:32] *** lumi has joined the room
[11:42:02] *** blabla has joined the room
[11:43:06] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:45:49] *** suzyo has joined the room
[11:49:04] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:49:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:49:51] *** hannes has joined the room
[11:50:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:50:45] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:50:48] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:52:04] *** winfried has joined the room
[11:52:47] *** daniel has left the room
[11:52:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:55:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:55:18] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:55:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:55:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:56:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:56:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:56:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:56:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:56:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:57:45] *** hannes has joined the room
[12:00:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:01:16] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[12:01:24] *** jubalh has left the room
[12:09:27] *** Guus has left the room
[12:09:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:09:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:10:21] *** remko shows as "online"
[12:12:05] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:13:16] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:13:38] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:14:26] *** Kev has left the room
[12:14:32] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:15:27] *** hannes has joined the room
[12:18:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:19:22] *** Guus has left the room
[12:19:47] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[12:22:47] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:24:32] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:26:24] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:26:28] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:27:40] *** nyco has left the room
[12:27:55] *** nyco shows as "online"
[12:38:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:43:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:48:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:49:28] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:49:49] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:49:49] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:49:56] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:49:57] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:50:05] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:50:05] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:50:13] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:50:13] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:50:21] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:50:21] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:50:54] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[12:50:54] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[12:51:16] *** lumi shows as "xa" and his status message is "(Idle 60 min)"
[12:52:27] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:53:02] *** lumi shows as "online"
[12:58:26] *** tux shows as "away"
[13:00:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:05:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:07:45] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:12:32] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:13:03] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:15:55] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:16:11] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:19:30] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:19:35] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:19:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:21:55] *** ralphm has left the room
[13:22:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:22:47] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:29:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:30:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:31:58] *** Alex has joined the room
[13:33:12] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:40:10] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[13:40:17] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:40:56] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:41:04] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:41:08] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:43:32] *** suzyo has left the room
[13:44:19] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:44:47] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:44:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:50:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:50:53] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:51:07] *** jubalh has joined the room
[13:52:16] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:52:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:52:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:56:15] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:57:29] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:59:42] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:01:25] *** Kev has left the room
[14:02:17] *** efrit has joined the room
[14:06:52] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:06:55] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:07:20] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:09:59] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:10:02] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:11:26] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:11:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:12:16] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:12:21] *** Alex has left the room
[14:12:28] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:12:28] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:12:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:15:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:15:48] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:15:48] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[14:18:49] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:18:53] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:20:21] *** matlag has left the room
[14:20:22] *** matlag has joined the room
[14:21:51] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:21:51] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:32:10] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:32:44] *** tux shows as "away"
[14:32:46] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[14:32:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:33:35] *** ralphm has left the room
[14:35:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:37:10] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:42:20] *** Kev has left the room
[14:45:52] *** efrit has left the room
[14:46:05] *** efrit has joined the room
[14:50:49] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:51:33] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:54:59] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[14:56:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:58:20] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:58:21] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:00:31] *** Tobias has left the room
[15:00:39] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:01:04] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:02:15] <Guus> For those that want to attend the Summit, and have not yet send me their email address: _please do so now_. It's needed to generate a wifi code, as well as building access.
[15:07:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:07:39] *** Syndace has left the room
[15:07:42] *** Syndace has joined the room
[15:12:28] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:12:40] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[15:12:56] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:13:01] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:13:06] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[15:16:10] *** efrit has left the room
[15:16:46] *** lumi shows as "online"
[15:17:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:17:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:19:34] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[15:19:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:22:23] <Ge0rG> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16257073 - zero xmpp.
[15:23:11] <mathieui> Ge0rG, first post is pidgin/adium + OTR, which includes xmpp
[15:24:45] <Ge0rG> Right, which is a set of broken and outdated things.
[15:25:49] *** Alex shows as "online"
[15:25:59] <SouL> Ge0rG, you can reply recommending XMPP then :D
[15:26:42] <Ge0rG> SouL: oh, yes. Which one of the horrible desktop clients shall I recommend?
[15:26:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:26:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, tell them that e2e is useless anyways
[15:27:06] <jonasw> I thought that’s your speciality? :)
[15:28:02] <Zash> Doesn't any mention of XMPP just attract hordes of pro-Matrix trolls?
[15:28:18] <mathieui> that it does
[15:29:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:29:47] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I only hate E2EE over XMPP, because it doesn't match the comms model of XMPP in any reasonable way
[15:29:49] *** zinid shows as "online"
[15:31:58] *** lskdjf has left the room
[15:31:59] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[15:32:08] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:32:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:32:44] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:32:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:33:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:33:19] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, why not? Because it is not multi-device?
[15:33:35] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:33:44] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: because it's absolutely decoupled from the XMPP identity model.
[15:35:01] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, but that is rather common isn't it?
[15:35:33] <SaltyBones> Or do you mean something like in GPG where a key specifies the e-mail address it is for?
[15:35:35] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: not in protocols where e2ee is a first class citizen
[15:35:55] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: no, I mean things like tox where your public key is your ID
[15:36:52] <SamWhited> I haven't used Tox, but that sounds like GPG levels of unusability…
[15:37:03] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: take Briar, then.
[15:37:49] *jonasw invokes Zookos Triangle
[15:37:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:37:57] <SamWhited> As long as I don't have to remember a key then I'll take just about anything
[15:38:10] <Zash> All hail the great Zooko
[15:38:14] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:38:18] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:38:47] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:38:52] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:38:57] *** zinid has left the room
[15:39:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: thanks very much. XMPP is the crypto protocol that only checks off one of the three points.
[15:39:09] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, a key being inseperable from an identity isn't great either, I lose my phone, and suddenly have to let all contacts know? ew
[15:39:28] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: only if you define key as being the same as phone.
[15:39:47] <moparisthebest> how else could you define it
[15:39:54] *** Guus has left the room
[15:40:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:40:04] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[15:40:06] <Zash> Run your own CA
[15:40:10] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: in a dozen of other ways :P
[15:40:31] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:40:35] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:40:41] <moparisthebest> how about you have a well defined account name, maybe in the format of local@domain, and then verify keys out of band? :D
[15:41:30] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's great, except it doesn't give any strong binding between your identity and your keys.
[15:41:44] <moparisthebest> it does if you verify it out of band
[15:41:56] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: in which case you can as well have cryptographic identities
[15:42:19] <Zash> Who verifies it?
[15:42:35] <moparisthebest> user, if they want
[15:42:51] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:43:07] <moparisthebest> my only point is both have upsides and downsides, the upside of xmpp being everything else just works and you don't have to reinvent the wheel
[15:43:38] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:43:45] <Ge0rG> except that not everything works in XMPP
[15:44:14] <moparisthebest> better than reinventing the wheel
[15:44:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:44:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:45:59] *** Alex shows as "online"
[15:46:59] *** Kev has left the room
[15:47:49] <Zash> And E2EE is actively making things worse for me now. Messages only showing up on my phone :(
[15:47:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:48:41] <Ge0rG> Zash: what? If only somebody could have warned you!
[15:48:48] <moparisthebest> another reason identity-tied-to-key is worse, now you lose multi device support
[15:49:44] <MattJ> +1
[15:49:55] <moparisthebest> that's just something that can be approved, rather than each user manually trusting all device keys of a contact, once they trust one, they could trust all others based on a signature from the one they trusted
[15:50:06] <moparisthebest> s/approved/improved/
[15:50:20] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: exactly my point
[15:50:35] <moparisthebest> what is
[15:51:14] <Ge0rG> strapping a per-device crypto identity on top of a federated per-account identity is just not going to work. full stop.
[15:51:27] <moparisthebest> no, it'll work just fine
[15:51:36] <moparisthebest> sure it's not ideal today, but all the building blocks are there to make it ideal
[15:51:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:51:52] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: the building blocks are there to make it barely usable.
[15:51:58] <moparisthebest> my point is strapping per-device crypto identity mixed with identity-per-contact is unusable with multi device
[15:52:08] <Ge0rG> Yes.
[15:52:17] <moparisthebest> so the xmpp approach is clearly better
[15:52:17] <Ge0rG> looks like we are saying the same.
[15:52:22] <Ge0rG> Wait.
[15:52:27] <Zash> Ge0rG: It might work but it'll be a hack.
[15:52:40] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: what you just described as unusable _is_ the XMPP approach.
[15:52:46] <Zash> Model conflicts all over
[15:52:47] <moparisthebest> no
[15:52:58] <moparisthebest> what you said is ideal, the key *is* your identity
[15:53:05] <moparisthebest> is not compatible with multiple devices
[15:53:31] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: you can export the key.
[15:54:12] <moparisthebest> do any current systems work that way?
[15:54:23] <Ge0rG> I surely hope so.
[15:54:42] <moparisthebest> I seriously doubt it, if you are routing based on key not quite sure how you route to 2 different places
[15:54:45] <moparisthebest> sounds hard
[15:55:20] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: either all of your devices use the same identity key, or you have device keys that are all maintained under your identity key.
[15:55:23] <moparisthebest> by the way, it doesn't actually solve any problem, before you had a *name* and have to out-of-band ensure it matches a *key*
[15:55:31] <moparisthebest> and now you have a *key* and can't match it to a *name*
[15:55:37] <moparisthebest> how is it different?
[15:56:20] <Zash> The direction of authority in XMPP is from DNS to servers to accounts to clients. E2E wants it in the other direction, sorta
[15:58:14] <moparisthebest> it's not that straightforward anymore when you add DNSSEC and CAs either
[15:58:23] <moparisthebest> the root problem is how do you match a key to a person
[15:58:29] <moparisthebest> and, iirc, that's not solved in any system
[15:58:39] <Zash> That's a hard problem
[15:58:46] <MattJ> It's just impractical to solve in the real world
[15:59:10] <MattJ> It's a nice technical challenge for ideological geeks
[15:59:29] <Zash> When everyone learns to do cryptographic signature algorithms in their heads then maybe
[15:59:49] <MattJ> and then SHA256 gets broken
[15:59:57] <moparisthebest> the best we can do is 'good enough' for most people and 'rock solid' for the people who really care, which I think is basically what we have
[15:59:58] <Zash> Then having users as the root of trust might work
[16:00:05] <SaltyBones> I like ideas like certificate transparency and CONIKS
[16:00:25] <SaltyBones> combining that with some good old WoT and a nice scan-barcode-to-verify should actually be pretty good
[16:00:29] <moparisthebest> today you can meet people in person, or call them, or whatever, and verify identity, that's the rock solid for people who care
[16:01:05] <moparisthebest> on the 'good enough' front, if bob from the xsf messages me, whatever, talking with him for a bit is 'good enough'
[16:01:26] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:02:02] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:02:11] <moparisthebest> I mean here I am talking with Ge0rG in an anonymous muc, he might not even be the same Ge0rG from yesterday, clearly we couldn't care less about identities in XMPP :P
[16:02:32] <Zash> People can grasp hierarchical systems, we have them everywhere, in companies and organizations. P2P and WoT is like anarchy :)
[16:03:43] <SaltyBones> Zash, actually I think WoT is very natural for people but the WoT for e-mail is not explicit enough for people to get it and it is too complicated to maintain it
[16:04:03] <SaltyBones> The bigger issue is that WoT has huge privacy issues
[16:04:59] <Ge0rG> > the root problem is how do you match a key to a person
http://web.archive.org/web/20110501005631/http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/
[16:05:17] <SaltyBones> I think a combination of a public ledger for assigning jid<->key combined with automatic WoT verification with known users would be cool
[16:05:26] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, indeed but if you meet the person that is rather easy to do
[16:05:36] <SaltyBones> the question is how do you distribute that information so that it is readily accessible
[16:05:57] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: the WoT for mail is absolutely broken.
[16:06:17] <moparisthebest> the people on my contact list fall into 2 categories, 1. People I know in-person and have verified keys in-person 2. People I don't know in person so who cares
[16:06:26] <Zash> Did you just suggest a blockchain?
[16:06:33] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: just one keyword as explanation: transitive trust.
[16:07:33] <SaltyBones> Zash, I almost certainly did not, sir!
[16:08:06] <moparisthebest> you said public ledger
[16:08:07] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[16:08:12] <SaltyBones> But yeah, the implication is there, but something like certificate transparency does would work as well
[16:08:27] <moparisthebest> if you trust the certificate transparency servers I guess
[16:08:39] <SaltyBones> you guess correctly
[16:08:44] <Ge0rG> the blockchain is a complex solution to a single problem of a distributed currency: double-spending.
[16:08:58] <Ge0rG> I wonder how double-spending is a problem with public identities.
[16:09:31] <moparisthebest> easy, because key X signs a message saying they own me@mydomain.com
[16:09:45] <moparisthebest> now if key Y comes along and signs they own me@mydomain.com you know it's not valid
[16:10:12] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: how do you know that key X is legitimate?
[16:10:20] <moparisthebest> they signed it first!
[16:10:36] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: okay, so if we have a public ledger, the first to sign a JID wins.
[16:10:41] <moparisthebest> yep
[16:10:45] <moparisthebest> first come first served
[16:10:47] <Ge0rG> how does that prevent me from signing *@xmpp.org
[16:11:05] <moparisthebest> it doesn't
[16:11:11] <moparisthebest> well * isn't valid so you'd have to sign a lot
[16:11:14] <moparisthebest> but yea
[16:11:18] <Ge0rG> So it's worthless as an identity tracking device. Good.
[16:11:26] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:11:30] <moparisthebest> no it'd track identity perfectly
[16:11:36] <Ge0rG> Claimed identity.
[16:11:48] <jonasw> I’d argue that you shouldn’t be able to claim something@domain, but only domain
[16:11:57] <moparisthebest> I just said earlier I think no one has solved this and it's basically impossible to solve :P
[16:11:59] <jonasw> (and then delegate claims for something@domain)
[16:12:00] <Zash> But xmpp.org is the authority over *@xmpo.org
[16:12:51] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: so you are trying to solve a problem you think is impossible to solve?
[16:13:27] <moparisthebest> and PIR is the authority over .org and ICANN over that and US govt over that Zash , what's your point
[16:13:42] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, nope it's solved good enough
[16:14:04] <Ge0rG> Except it's not.
[16:14:20] <Zash> moparisthebest: adding another name authority will create a mess
[16:14:29] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what you describe is the trust model of XMPP, without any need for E2EE
[16:14:41] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I admit I didn’t take a close look :)
[16:15:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: servers are responsible for user identities on their service. XMPP.
[16:15:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:15:41] <Ge0rG> Now one _could_ add OMEMO keys in PEP on individual JIDs and encrypt-by-default, and have E2EE with server-trusted manually-verifiable identity.
[16:16:04] *** bear has left the room
[16:16:10] <moparisthebest> isn't that exactly how it works?
[16:16:33] <SaltyBones> I think he is missing the server-trusted...?
[16:17:23] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:17:54] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[16:18:00] <moparisthebest> I'm not really sure what that means then, the server doesn't need to trust anything
[16:18:19] <SaltyBones> I read it as "the server should provide trust in the identities it provides"
[16:18:30] <SaltyBones> Like signing the users keys or similar
[16:18:40] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:18:45] <Zash> Having the server sign user identities somehow ?
[16:19:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:19:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:19:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:19:51] <SaltyBones> Well, you could also use IBE if you want to go really crazy. :)
[16:19:59] <moparisthebest> the server does basically
[16:20:18] <moparisthebest> I mean the server should only allow those to be set from the account setting them
[16:20:47] <moparisthebest> alice@server can't set bob@server's pep nodes can she?
[16:24:09] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[16:25:22] *** bear has joined the room
[16:25:22] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:27:53] *** remko shows as "away"
[16:28:01] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:28:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:29:03] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[16:29:29] <Ge0rG> I meant that the server is trusted by default
[16:29:43] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:29:52] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:30:03] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, uh again that's how it works now
[16:30:14] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:30:20] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: in the single-device case.
[16:30:27] <SaltyBones> I don't see what this has to do with e2e
[16:30:38] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, https://gultsch.de/trust.html
[16:31:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:32:32] <SaltyBones> If you combine that with a CONIKS like transparency approach it is actually very good.
[16:33:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:35:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:37:19] <Ge0rG> coinks sounds like a pig.
[16:38:40] <SaltyBones> if you spell it like that it sounds like COIN-X another cryptocurrency
[16:39:10] <Ge0rG> or that.
[16:39:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:39:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:39:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:41:02] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:41:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:41:36] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:42:00] *** waqas has joined the room
[16:42:58] <jonasw> moparisthebest, didn’t you set up some ALPN test host?
[16:43:05] <jonasw> or domain?
[16:43:25] <moparisthebest> haven't set up the tests yet no, but mine requires alpn on the first record over ipv4
[16:43:37] <jonasw> I’d need something which always requires ALPN for the tests to be useful
[16:43:43] <jonasw> (I want to add that to the aioxmpp test suite)
[16:44:04] <moparisthebest> no don't have that yet sorry
[16:44:08] <jonasw> ah, pity
[16:45:04] <moparisthebest> you could use firewall rules to fake it, but then tests might only pass/fail on your machine
[16:45:13] <jonasw> yeah, I want to run that in travis CI
[16:45:14] <moparisthebest> probably easier to set up a test host yourself honestly :P
[16:46:12] <Zash> Can openssl s_server?
[16:47:44] *** zinid shows as "online"
[16:48:29] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:49:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:50:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:52:37] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[16:55:34] *** lovetox has joined the room
[16:55:58] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:58:01] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:59:41] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:02:40] *** Zash has left the room
[17:07:58] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:11:47] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:11:53] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:12:21] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[17:12:22] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:12:34] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[17:12:41] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:17:59] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:20:10] *** lskdjf has left the room
[17:20:10] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[17:20:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:20:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:23:03] *** nyco has left the room
[17:23:10] *** nyco shows as "online"
[17:23:16] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:24:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:24:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:25:09] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:27:10] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:27:12] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:28:16] *** Link Mauve shows as "online"
[17:30:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:30:35] *** remko shows as "online"
[17:30:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:31:51] *** uc has joined the room
[17:34:12] *** tux has left the room
[17:35:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:37:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:37:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:39:06] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:40:24] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:42:11] *** lumi shows as "online"
[17:42:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:43:05] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[17:43:29] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:45:50] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:46:46] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[17:48:16] <edhelas> https://blog.status.im/status-invests-5m-in-riot-im-4e3026a8bd50
[17:48:22] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[17:48:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:49:05] <Ge0rG> > Status - A Mobile OS, Built for Ethereum.
No further questions. I rest my case.
[17:49:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:49:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:49:37] <Zash> Objection, relevance?
[17:49:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:49:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:50:07] <Ge0rG> Bullshit Bingo Strike.
[17:51:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:51:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:52:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:53:22] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:53:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:58:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:58:34] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:59:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:59:25] <moparisthebest> that's really all XSF is missing
[17:59:39] <moparisthebest> a marketing team full of master bullshitters
[17:59:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:00:09] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:01:40] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[18:03:19] *** Alex has left the room
[18:04:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:05:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:05:18] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:05:27] *** nyco has left the room
[18:05:30] <vanitasvitae> I read the URL like "status invests 5 minutes in riot im" :D
[18:05:48] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:05:57] <moparisthebest> hey, that's the same amount I invested in riot im
[18:06:19] <SaltyBones> pfff
[18:06:25] <SaltyBones> Furthermore, the collaboration between Status and Matrix is expected to:

Utilize the Status Network token within Riot.im by enabling crypto assets
[18:06:38] <SaltyBones> they are bying influence and users
[18:06:43] <vanitasvitae> I actually tested it for a few weeks. The thing that dragged me back to xmpp/conversations was that the app could not receive messages when closed.
[18:07:19] <vanitasvitae> SaltyBones, sounds a little bit like the Telegram blockchain thingy
[18:07:30] <SaltyBones> vanitasvitae, did you test riot/matrix or whisper?
[18:07:32] <moparisthebest> I found it more confusing than any other IM app I've ever used
[18:07:44] <moparisthebest> and then I tried installing it on my wife's phone and messaging my username
[18:07:47] <vanitasvitae> SaltyBones, I tested the app from fdroid
[18:07:56] <moparisthebest> but then my IRC account on freenode got the message instead
[18:07:58] <SaltyBones> I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed it unlikely to be a protocol restriction
[18:07:59] <moparisthebest> wtf
[18:08:26] <SaltyBones> I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed is unlikely to be a protocol restriction
[18:08:33] <vanitasvitae> yeah, my phone doesnt have gcm
[18:08:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:09:07] <vanitasvitae> but I gave it the same permissions I also gave conversations
[18:09:16] <jonasw> moparisthebest, wtf
[18:09:18] *** Alex has joined the room
[18:09:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:09:41] *** nyco shows as "online"
[18:10:14] <moparisthebest> jonasw, well turns out they have an always on freenode gateway, so if you search 'moparisthebest' in riot.im that came up before my new username :P
[18:10:23] <moparisthebest> still was confusing before I figured it out
[18:10:38] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:10:41] <moparisthebest> basically would not mark it 'easy to use'
[18:10:47] <jonasw> so you can search arbitrary users on freenode in riot.im?
[18:10:50] <moparisthebest> I've never accidentally messaged someone on freenode from conversations
[18:10:52] <moparisthebest> yep
[18:11:02] <jonasw> aha.
[18:11:16] <moparisthebest> but nothing clearly said 'this is an IRC user on freenode'
[18:12:11] <edhelas> who want to write some BS articles on the XMPP blog ? then we can get some funding to buy pizzas and stickers for the next Summit ?
[18:12:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:13:01] <moparisthebest> that's the problem, we need a master BS artist, and we are (all?) programmers
[18:13:14] <edhelas> like "5 steps to transfer your BTC with XMPP", "VR over XMPP, we tested it and it's trully amazing", "You'll never guess what they've done with XMPP"
[18:13:55] *** zinid has left the room
[18:14:02] <edhelas> (for the last one just write how you can change the lights colors by sending <messages> :D)
[18:14:34] <jonasw> or maybe my actual thing which transports sensor data over XMPP
[18:14:40] <jonasw> and public transport departure times
[18:14:43] <jonasw> and shows it on an LCD
[18:15:18] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:16:58] *** remko shows as "away"
[18:18:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:20:25] *** blabla has joined the room
[18:22:54] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:23:24] *** Alex has left the room
[18:23:48] <Dave Cridland> 5 facts about XMPP: You'll never believe number four!
[18:24:07] <moparisthebest> is it that it uses XML
[18:24:48] <Dave Cridland> XMPP uses XML and people just can't handle it!
[18:25:25] <jonasw> There is a binary serialization of XML which is very compact!
[18:26:05] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:26:05] <moparisthebest> so compact that no one even uses it!
[18:27:08] <Guus> Dave, if you keep this up, I'm taking away your Facebook access again.
[18:28:06] <moparisthebest> so there are some interesting articles about XMPP and such, it just doesn't always call-out THIS IS XMPP https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/595zg5/sopranica-jmp-wom-cell-network-diy-anonymous
[18:28:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:28:50] <moparisthebest> it might be neat to have an xmpp dedicated blog to talk about cool stuff being done with xmpp today, but I couldn't write articles, I'm bad with words :)
[18:29:23] <moparisthebest> here's another one https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xm5v3/this-software-developer-is-making-a-surveillance-free-cell-phone-network (same topic)
[18:29:34] <jonasw> do we have a planet XMPP?
[18:29:36] <jonasw> like planet python
[18:29:56] <moparisthebest> maybe the xsf should just hire ossguy / Denver Gingerich to do it's marketing :)
[18:30:12] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:30:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:32:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:32:32] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:32:48] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:32:51] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:35:15] <SamWhited> We do have a planet XMPP… but I don't think anyone has used planets in years, so I'm not sure how much good it does. I don't even remember where it lives
[18:35:50] <SamWhited> jonasw: https://planet.jabber.org/
[18:36:12] *** tux shows as "online"
[18:36:39] <SamWhited> ossguys marketing works because he's marketing a service; the XSF doesn't have a service to market.
[18:39:15] <moparisthebest> that's basically half the problem, some of us want to market cisco's trademarked term, others don't :P
[18:40:58] *** jubalh has left the room
[18:41:01] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:41:18] *** nyco has left the room
[18:41:55] <SamWhited> I don't think that's a problem or matters at all; the problem is that we want to market an abstract network and ecosystem of different products. Regardless of what we call it, people aren't going to be able to grasp that and it's just going to sound too confusing.
[18:43:06] <moparisthebest> that makes sense, what about just marketing FOSS stuff that uses XMPP though
[18:43:23] <moparisthebest> jmp.chat being one example of many
[18:43:53] <SamWhited> Yah, that seems good to me. People can grasp what jmp.chat or Conversations.im is; they don't need to know the protocol, just that there's a cool new chat service
[18:44:23] <SamWhited> And maybe somewhere it has an "XMPP Certified" or "Jabber Compatible" badge or something along those lines; most people won't care, those that do can find it.
[18:49:41] *** nyco shows as "online"
[18:49:59] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:55:05] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:55:50] *** pep. has left the room
[18:56:00] *** pep. shows as "online"
[18:57:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:57:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:57:51] *** blabla has left the room
[18:58:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:04:59] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:05:21] *** blabla has joined the room
[19:13:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:18:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:23:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:26:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:37:33] *** Alex has joined the room
[19:38:19] *** lovetox has left the room
[19:38:21] *** lovetox has joined the room
[19:38:22] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:22] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:23] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:24] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:27] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:38:49] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:39:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:40:01] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:40:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:42:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:43:04] *** sezuan has joined the room
[19:48:30] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:50:18] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:51:53] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:52:40] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:55:42] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:58:57] <SamWhited> Guus, Kev: I just noticed some XEPs that shouldn't be in the list and the website build appears to have failed 4 days ago and not run since then, FYI
[19:59:22] *** zinid shows as "online"
[19:59:27] <Kev> Ta. something for after the summit, I think.
[20:06:29] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: "Jabber Compatible" is what we need a new Jabber Software Alliance for!
[20:07:29] <Zash> No, first we need a funny backronym and a shiny website and a billion dolares in marketing budget
[20:07:50] <Guus> Sam, I'm not understanding the details of what you're writing. I'm missing a comma, somewhere, I thnk :)
[20:09:26] <Ge0rG> Zash: we are full of "funny" backronyms, like SCAM. And nobody is going to give us billions, nor even millions of dollars.
[20:09:39] <Ge0rG> Maybe we can make a JabberCoin ICO.
[20:14:05] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:15:43] <SamWhited> Guus: sorry, that was confusing. The website hasn't been rebuilt for 4 days so the /extensions list is not up to date.
[20:16:26] <SamWhited> Guus: https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/ba3edxw2vyssrdcnovd6gps/
[20:17:11] <Guus> that's light on details :/
[20:17:17] <Guus> I can try to kick it off again?
[20:17:31] <SamWhited> sounds good, thanks
[20:18:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:20:02] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:20:06] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:20:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:20:29] <Guus> SamWhited: it's building now. For future reference: it should pick up any change in github (so you can trigger it by committing something). It should also be triggered by a successful build of the XEPs repo.
[20:20:53] <SamWhited> oh, I should have thought of that, thanks
[20:21:38] <Guus> (or rather, github pushes to XEPs will cause the XEPs dockerhub to kick off, which in turn will kick off the website one)
[20:22:03] <SamWhited> I just made a change, so I guess that would have rebuilt it soon anyways
[20:23:04] <Guus> ah, probably. I've now only delayed your change by triggering a manual build.
[20:25:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:28:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:29:37] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:29:38] <jjrh> A weekly "whats going on in XMPP" would be cool sorta like http://sachachua.com/blog/2018/01/2018-01-23-emacs-news/
[20:30:10] <jjrh> But I feel like that would have already happened if someone had the time.
[20:34:58] <jjrh> I have planet jabber in my rss reader though and it picks up a lot of stuff. It misses is what's happening in XSF-Standards that I gotta actually read my email ;)
[20:36:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:36:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:39:24] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:41:03] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:44:49] <edhelas> jjrh you should have Planet Jabber in your Pubsub feed reader :p
[20:44:56] <edhelas> you know "eat your own food" :p
[20:45:29] <jjrh> edhelas, any client recommendations?
[20:45:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:45:39] <edhelas> Movim :)
[20:47:25] <jjrh> I'll have to try it out.
[20:47:36] <edhelas> just wait ~10min, i've added the feed, it will appears soon
[20:47:49] <edhelas> but there's already a bunch of them :
[20:48:58] <edhelas> https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica for example
[20:51:16] <jjrh> so they are called 'communities' ?
[20:53:13] <edhelas> yup :)
[20:53:27] <edhelas> because "Pubsub Node" is too mainstream
[20:55:21] <jjrh> Gajim apparently has pubsub support but I never really figured out how to make it work.
[20:57:14] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:57:15] <jjrh> Thought it would be good for stuff like notifications/alerts and the like for the office. Better than spamming the group chat with a bot :P Folks can easily opt in or out
[20:59:34] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[21:01:21] <jjrh> https://de.movim.eu/?community/news.movim.eu/PlanetJabber there it is :D
[21:04:59] *** Alex has left the room
[21:05:16] *** Guus has left the room
[21:05:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:08:49] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:08:57] <edhelas> :)
[21:16:49] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:20:27] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[21:20:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[21:23:35] *** tux shows as "online"
[21:23:54] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:26:05] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:28:46] *** tux shows as "online"
[21:29:20] *** remko shows as "online"
[21:29:23] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:30:19] *** remko has left the room
[21:34:48] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[21:35:49] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:36:07] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[21:36:21] *** goffi has left the room
[21:37:26] *** lumi has left the room
[21:37:44] *** lumi has joined the room
[21:40:49] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[21:42:32] *** zinid has left the room
[21:43:51] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:45:07] *** Alex has joined the room
[21:45:11] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:45:20] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[21:47:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:47:38] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[21:49:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:53:50] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:56:12] *** Guus has left the room
[21:56:22] *** Guus shows as "online"
[21:57:12] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[22:10:13] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[22:10:32] <Neustradamus> Any news about clients and servers removed on XMPP.org lists?
[22:13:20] <Neustradamus> "After a verification on xmpp.org, I found that the list has been changed, in the past when I managed the list, it will be more important.
Psi and Psi+ have not in list, why?
https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
http://psi-im.org/ + http://psi-plus.com/
Really strange for historical XMPP clients
Metronome is not listed too on https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html
https://metronome.im/
It was before ;)"
[22:14:45] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[22:14:46] <moparisthebest> Neustradamus: they need renewed annually or get removed automatically
[22:16:28] <Neustradamus> moparisthebest thanks for your reply! it is strange
[22:19:27] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:22:30] *** uc has left the room
[22:26:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:26:55] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:27:29] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:27:45] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:29:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:29:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:32:35] *** efrit has joined the room
[22:33:07] *** nyco has left the room
[22:33:15] *** nyco shows as "online"
[22:33:32] *** Guus has left the room
[22:33:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:34:17] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:38:41] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[22:39:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:39:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:39:24] *** Alex shows as "online"
[22:43:22] *** Guus has left the room
[22:44:36] *** tux has left the room
[22:54:14] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:54:18] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:56:03] *** sezuan has left the room
[22:56:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:00:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:00:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:01:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:01:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:06:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:10:28] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[23:12:19] *** valo has left the room
[23:12:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[23:14:50] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:15:50] *** Alex has left the room
[23:16:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:17:14] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[23:30:21] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[23:30:21] *** lovetox has left the room
[23:36:41] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:36:42] *** Alex has joined the room
[23:48:36] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:48:36] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[23:54:38] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:54:38] *** ThurahT shows as "away"