XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-01-30


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  60. jonasw Neustradamus, where would we have to have announce that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?
  61. Ge0rG There was a piece of news indeed.
  62. jonasw Neustradamus, where would we have to have announced that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?
  63. jonasw english is hard
  64. Ge0rG My clients will expire in March. Need to resubmit urgently.
  65. Guus ah, are we already a year in?
  66. Guus time flies
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  68. Ge0rG fruit flies too
  69. jonasw like an arrow, or like a banana?
  70. intosi Unspecified fruit.
  71. Ge0rG Like a sparrow.
  72. jonasw I always forget I have merge power on xmpp.org. I should recall that more often while Guus is busy with SCAMing.
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  74. Guus JONAS STOP PRESSING BUTTONS MILLISECONDS BEFORE I DO!
  75. Guus *click* miss *click* miss (<-- me, this morning)
  76. jonasw Guus, I think you’ve set OLCUC in your termin… oh you fixed it
  77. jonasw :)
  78. jonasw I only merged one thing, didn’t I?
  79. Guus and closed an issue :)
  80. jonasw ah right
  81. jonasw that’s going to be a fun discussion
  82. jonasw oh sweet, the build failed
  83. jonasw Guus, or someone else with power, could you take a look? https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/borgns4wfclmgndzdyqvnjc/
  84. jonasw the CI passed
  85. jonasw a simple re-trigger may do the trick
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  87. jonasw (I don’t have the power for that)
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  90. Guus again? Same thing happened yesterday
  91. jonasw I pushed an empty commit now :)
  92. Guus https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/
  93. Guus right, a new build is already queued
  94. Guus I wonder why it errors out occasionally
  95. Guus Do you see a non-empty log or something?
  96. jonasw no
  97. jonasw I was hoping you might, with your additional permissions etc.
  98. Guus weird
  99. Guus nope
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  111. Neustradamus jonasw: here some days ago
  112. jonasw Neustradamus, well, the policy has been active for nearly a year now
  113. jonasw so clearly we haven’t done a good job communicating it
  114. jonasw but I’d like to know what we could’ve done better
  115. Neustradamus yes I managed before (some years ago) ^^ The lists were more importants
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  117. jonasw Neustradamus, cf. https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
  118. Neustradamus thanks jonasw
  119. Ge0rG The idea behind that rule is btw that *application authors* enlist their software, as long as they consider it as maintained.
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  123. Guus (I for one don't care much about _who_ is doing the listing, as long as _someone_ is keeping it up-to-date - that's enough to keep the really old, unmaintained and undesireable stuff out of the list)
  124. Ge0rG Guus: the effect I want to avoid is that loyal users of a client abandoned a decade ago insist on keeping it listed.
  125. Guus well, if it has loyal users, it probably has at least some reason for being listed
  126. Guus arguably not the best of reasons, but I'd be able to live with it
  127. Guus (if it has loyal users, it's by definition not completely abandoned)
  128. Ge0rG Guus: and then you'll end up with Pidgin/OTR, which breaks the experience both for the newcomers and the people they are trying to talk to.
  129. Guus Ge0rG: if people want to use pidgin / OTR, then that's an issue that's to be addressed seperately.
  130. Guus I think we shouldn't put to much thought/motivation in the decision we make to list something. What we have now is something that I'm pretty happy with.
  131. Ge0rG Guus: the list is obviously for newcomers. If you have a friend who insists on you getting abused with pidgin/OTR (just to stick to the example), that's fine with me. But please keep it off the official list.
  132. Guus let's not overthink something that works 95% well.
  133. mathieui Ge0rG, I’m planning to write an XMPP bot that reminds subscribed people about the expiration from the list of clients/servers/libraries (when I have 15 minutes and enough motivation)
  134. mathieui that would help
  135. Ge0rG mathieui: that would be awesome.
  136. Guus perhaps we should _not_ do that
  137. Guus as that will facilitate automatic, no-brains-used, renewals
  138. Ge0rG mathieui: I suppose all the proposals of client maintainers having a structured metadata file somewhere are way too complex
  139. Guus which would cause the list to fill up with stale data again.
  140. mathieui Ge0rG, I don’t
  141. mathieui but it would need to be done (we discussed it briefly at 34C3)
  142. Guus I do disagree with there being a need for automatic renewal, or a reminder facilitated by the XSF.
  143. mathieui Guus, I wasn’t planning of having it being any kind of official
  144. Guus the thought behind the forced expiry is that people need to actively be maintaining the software listing. Any form of automation fights that principle.
  145. mathieui it’s automation of reminder; when doing things once a year, it’s very easy to forget
  146. Guus mathieui: you really don't need to wait a year to apply for a renewal. I think I've renewed my stuff about three times, last year
  147. Guus (pushing the expiry date by a couple of months every time)
  148. Ge0rG Guus: just because you can directly commit to the repo, everybody else needs to make a PR
  149. Guus the PR can be made in github (which is exactly what I do)
  150. Guus PRs get accepted within a couple of hours, typically
  151. Ge0rG Guus: by yourself? ;)
  152. Ge0rG I'm just saying that it would be impolite for any non-editor to make updates far more often than strictly necessary.
  153. Guus two / three times a year is hardly 'far more'
  154. Guus I'm not saying that individual authors should have some kind of reminder - but please lets not facilitate that - it defeats the purpose of our expiry mechanism - that's all I'm saying.
  155. mathieui Ge0rG, this is only a one-line change with an explicit title, so it’s essentially a two-three clicks effort for editors
  156. mathieui I guess I’ll just put that in the topic of the poezio room
  157. Guus fwiw: the readme provides links that allow you to directly edit the files: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data
  158. Ge0rG There are only nine warnings in clients.json. Apparently nobody cares about the `platform` field.
  159. Ge0rG WARN: entry 'GreenJab': undefined platforms: 'IBM i' (the allowed platforms are listed in platforms.json. If you think a platform is missing add it and mention it in your Pull Request)
  160. Ge0rG WTH is IBM i?
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  162. Ge0rG jonasw: time to swing the Hammer of Enforcement!
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  164. Ge0rG Guus: thanks very much :)
  165. Ge0rG So, what's with all those clients running on undefined platforms?
  166. Guus what do you mean?
  167. Guus https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html <-- looks okay?
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  169. Guus I'm guestimating that we kept the old list intact, including the no-longer-supported-platforms, only to enfore platforms when the entry is actually renewed?
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  171. Ge0rG Guus: oh, thanks for the explanation.
  172. Ge0rG Guus: interested in a s/unsupported/"other"/ PR?
  173. Guus well, if the entries with unsupported stuff have not been renewed and therefore are not being displayed anyway, I don't really see the point - but let me not stop you putting in effort to improve things :)
  174. rion Guus: is the list on the page autogenerated?
  175. Ge0rG rion: yes it is
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  177. Ge0rG it'll probably take some minutes
  178. Guus yeah, it takes some time
  179. Guus psi is on there now though
  180. Ge0rG rion: what's the difference between Psi and Psi+?
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  185. jonasw Ge0rG, don’t bother with replacing unsupported platforms with "other". we’ll deal with it when they’re renewed, I think that’s most sane.
  186. jonasw Ge0rG, admit it, you spoofed the timestamps of your renewal!
  187. Ge0rG jonasw: I wanted to see if anyone notices.
  188. jonasw ha
  189. jonasw I do
  190. jonasw (but I only did because you lured me into the diff with the trademark remark)
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  194. rion Ge0rG: Psi+ includes some experimental patches not yet merged to Psi.
  195. Guus I happily accept anything that passes the parser (which does have a check for forward-dated renewals)
  196. Guus also, I happily accept stuff from people I deem trustworthy.
  197. Guus eyes Ge0rG
  198. jonasw not sure if that is a good glance or not
  199. zinid rion, when psi will support carbons, mam, SM and so on?
  200. Ge0rG rion: which one would you recommend to normal users?
  201. zinid you should really hate users to recommend them Psi :P
  202. rion zinid: carbons and SM are supported. mam is in progress.
  203. rion Ge0rG: stable one.
  204. zinid rion, supported in which version?
  205. rion zinid: one on https://psi-im.org
  206. Ge0rG rion: maybe you shouldn't be advertising psi+ then? ;)
  207. rion Ge0rG: It depends on users. Some of them like new features.
  208. jonasw rion, the question is, is Psi+ stable?
  209. rion Less then Psi. But mostly yes. We don't make releases for it. So it's possible to have something broken with each next build.
  210. jonasw rion, I’d argue don’t advertise this on the client list then
  211. Ge0rG I agree with jonasw - if you don't have releases, you shouldn't be advertising it to normal users.
  212. SouL rion, I'm suprised you saying that about Psi+
  213. SouL I've been using it for... I cannot remember
  214. SouL And I would not say is not stable or anything
  215. SouL I'm really surprised. And features don't come to Psi quickly in any way.
  216. SouL Or have that changed?
  217. rion for example if you enable multi-row tabs you can have rare crashes and kind of bad rendering on hidpi.
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  220. rion I use Psi+ all the time. It's works pretty stable for me. But usually I don't use the features introduced by those patches.
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  224. rion SouL: My goal after all to merge these projects into one. And I already merged quite a big chunk of patches. Psi+ keeps only those I considered bad-designed, useless or unstable. I'll refine and merge them all with time or may be some of them will be converted to plugins.
  225. Kev One of the XSF's earliest GSoC projects :)
  226. Kev (Although I doubt there's much relationship between the current code and the original)
  227. SouL rion, that sounds great! I understand now then :(
  228. SouL :)*
  229. rion or may be I'll join Swift team instead )))
  230. SouL Ha :D
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  235. Kev I hear that's a thing Psi devs sometimes do.
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  237. Ge0rG Is remuneration involved in that process?
  238. rion rarely
  239. Guus > (12:03) test: is xmpp providing gradle ?
  240. jonasw what
  241. Guus that's form our support muc just now
  242. Ge0rG I've lost motivation to report issues in Swift rather fast, because all my tickets were closed immediately with either "moved to private tracker" or WONTFIX.
  243. Ge0rG Guus: the right answer is: "no, because gradle is not based on XML. But we offer ant"
  244. Guus maven?
  245. Ge0rG Can do.
  246. zinid rion, didn't work for me
  247. Ge0rG zinid: you were a Psi developer?
  248. zinid Ge0rG, no
  249. zinid I tried last version and it didn't have any carbons or sm support
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  251. Ge0rG You don't need Carbons on a desktop client. Just configure it to priority 127 and beg that nobody does resource locking.
  252. zinid lol
  253. zinid typical jabber
  254. rion zinid: no idea. I believe this code wasn't changed since the release. and both features work good for me.
  255. rion I'll check later
  256. Ge0rG I only remember that this time last year, Psi didn't have support for Carbons.
  257. Ge0rG so CVE-2017-5593 only affected Psi+
  258. zinid rion, just checked 1.3, seems like SM and Carbons are working indeed, thanks
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  260. zinid still MAM is lacking...
  261. zinid and modern UI would be much appreciated
  262. zinid wow, captcha support
  263. zinid I'm impressed
  264. SouL :)
  265. zinid rion, Psi doesn't close a stream correctly, which leads to stalled resumed session ;)
  266. zinid it must send </stream:stream>
  267. rion Yes. I know. I remember this bug and in fact Psi has code sending stream close. I had no spare time to debug yet.
  268. zinid I see
  269. zinid the main problem of jabber is that development is done in spare time only ;)
  270. MattJ +1
  271. jonasw and when it isn’t, it actually flies, kinda. see c.im
  272. rion zinid: do you have a vacancy in ProcessOne? =)
  273. zinid rion, no :) We already fired a half of staff
  274. mimi89999 Why?
  275. rion Now they will keep working in working on xmpp in their spare time...
  276. zinid mimi89999, because the number of customers has decreased drastically in recent years since XMPP is degrading
  277. zinid so we don't need an army of developers anymore
  278. mimi89999 🙁
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  280. mimi89999 But why people don't like XMPP? I guess FB hidden marketing and network effect is really strong...
  281. Holger It's neither HTTP nor JSON.
  282. zinid mimi89999: because it has a reputation of outdated protocol
  283. MattJ I think it would be a mistake to pin a company's success on a protocol's reputation
  284. zinid One may argue, but the problem is that reputation is not a technical term, you cannot improve it by creating a better protocol
  285. MattJ SMTP isn't exactly cool nowadays either, but it still does the job it was designed to and many successful companies are based around it still
  286. zinid MattJ: sure, but protocol degradation is a part of this for sure, I know that because you cannot attract new customer because they don't want xmpp
  287. zinid So we actually stopped mentioning xmpp at all
  288. Holger MattJ: SMTP is a special case because it was so ubiquitous, no? I bet business around it is declining as well, just from a very high level.
  289. mimi89999 Point them to good articles about XMPP.
  290. mimi89999 Like that Json API on HTTP is better (not).
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  292. MattJ Holger, as far as standard IM protocols go, I'd say XMPP is fairly ubiquitous
  293. zinid MattJ: not in the sense of user base
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  296. MattJ Combine WhatsApp with Google and (once...) Facebook and that's a fairly large user base
  297. MattJ What failed is that none of these federate(d) in the way they were essentially forced to with SMTP
  298. zinid It's hard to call whatsapp's protocol an xmpp 😁
  299. MattJ It's derived from it, at least, and I think that counts enough for the purposes of this discussion
  300. zinid It used to be so (because based on ejabberd), but not anymore
  301. Holger MattJ: Well the discussion was about the business perspective, where I think WhatsApp & friends are irrelevant. If you build your business around SMTP, you can still reach many users; with XMPP, you reach nobody.
  302. Holger I'm not into p1's business but I would assume the typical customer isn't doing s2s at all.
  303. MattJ Most business uses of XMPP are not interested in federation
  304. zinid Holger: there was only a single customer with s2s: Nokia 😁
  305. MattJ so, if you wanted to replicate the success of WhatsApp, why would not not start with XMPP, as they did?
  306. Holger MattJ: Right. So the alternative is XMPP vs. random other chat solutions and the open aspect is irrelevant except in that it leads to library/infrastructure code being available.
  307. MattJ I don't think anyone expects to take any off-the-shelf tech and scale it as far as WhatsApp have done without customisation
  308. zinid MattJ: many do: every our customer wants to become WhatsApp 😁
  309. rion Let's rename XMPP to WhatsApp2 protocol
  310. MattJ Well WhatsApp's success wasn't due to federation, or its protocol - these things are irrelevant to users
  311. zinid MattJ: then there is no point in using xmpp? Because it's irrelevant
  312. MattJ There's similarly no point in *not* using it
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  314. Holger HTTP!
  315. Holger JSON!
  316. jonasw what Holger says
  317. MattJ Which is the point I'm trying to make - if you're solving a problem for your customers, why do they care about the protocol?
  318. jonasw MattJ, because HTTP passes through all firewalls, XMPP won’t.
  319. MattJ and like many other problems, XMPP already solved that
  320. jonasw did it?
  321. MattJ (in many ways, as usual)
  322. MattJ BOSH?
  323. jonasw by bother with BOSH+XMPP when you could use HTTP+json on your own?
  324. MattJ BOSH works perfectly through firewalls
  325. jonasw (in addition to BOSH being ugly and you’d want to use websockets nowadays)
  326. MattJ Well, we can do that too
  327. Holger There's JavaScript frameworks everywhere to throw JSON at a web service.
  328. MattJ I still don't think BOSH is ugly compared to websockets though :)
  329. Holger A new framework every other day!
  330. Kev Is that true? That you'd automatically want WSS instead of BOSH?
  331. Holger And all your devs have done this stuff several times.
  332. jonasw Kev, tbh, I don’t know a lot about web
  333. Holger None of them ever touched that XMP-what?! thing.
  334. jonasw but the concept of BOSH always irritated me
  335. jonasw Holger, and all the darn myths about XML aren’t helping
  336. Holger Right.
  337. jonasw (even though it is amusing to see how the JSON folks reinvent the XML data model)
  338. Holger Absolutely.
  339. zinid MattJ: bosh is much more complicated for sure and infact replicates SM behaviour
  340. Kev 295 is funny because it's true :p
  341. jonasw Kev, oh yes
  342. MattJ zinid, sure - I've written multiple BOSH implementations, client and server-side
  343. Holger MattJ: I'm not saying the typical business decision against XMPP is purely rational. Though I'm not sure it's purely irrational. But either way it doesn't help to just ignore those business reasonings.
  344. zinid MattJ: same here and I hate it
  345. zinid I actually don't understand why wss+sm is not enough
  346. jonasw zinid, because ws is rather new-ish and people haven’t gotten around to implement it yet?
  347. jonasw (spare time developers)
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  349. Holger I think jcbrand mentioned that Converse.js supports both but he prefers BOSH. He didn't really explain the reasons though, IIRC.
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  352. zinid jonasw: newish? The RFC was accepted in October 2014, it will be 4 years soon
  353. jonasw zinid, yes.
  354. jonasw that’s newish in spare time developer terms
  355. zinid Ok
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  357. jonasw or maybe it’s just me because I don’t follow web technologies a lot
  358. zinid But can we start recommending it instead of bosh?
  359. zinid Clearly we have several specs with the same functionality again
  360. MattJ The working group that created websockets looked at BOSH and considered it, or something very like it, to be the foundation of websockets
  361. zinid And "IE9 doesn't support WS" is not terribly convincing 😁
  362. MattJ I think ultimately BOSH is something you can already do in JS yourself, a binary-safe guaranteed persistent connection is not
  363. zinid I didn't get that, but whatever
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  369. Holger Seems XEP section anchors such as this one aren't stable? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139605353378912
  370. MattJ I've always assumed they are not
  371. MattJ I don't know where they come from though
  372. Holger Sigh.
  373. jonasw Holger, normally, the anchor is set in the code
  374. Holger I referenced that section (in an ejabberd issue) yesterday and it seems the anchor has changed since then.
  375. jonasw it’s not been set there :(
  376. jonasw we can now either set the current id as persistent, the old id as persistent or an arbitrary new identifier.
  377. jonasw pick one
  378. Holger Sometimes there's human-readable identifiers, right? They're much nicer of course.
  379. Ge0rG +1 for human-readable identifiers :>
  380. jonasw Holger, yeah. as mentioned, those are set in the XEP XML
  381. jonasw when they’re not set, they’re generated "randomly" apparently
  382. jonasw so I can now either set a human-readable one or one of the random IDs
  383. zinid Humans in XMPP detected
  384. Ge0rG jonasw: set a human readable one
  385. Ge0rG Then make a linter script to check all XEPs. Then crowdsource slugification
  386. jonasw I wish I had time to finish xeplint
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  390. jonasw Holger, fix pushed, will be live in ~1.5h
  391. jonasw new anchor is #business-storeret-user-archives
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  394. Holger jonasw: Thank you!
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  460. Ge0rG Should a MUC-PM notification follow the rules for message notifications, for MUC notifications or have a dedicated notification preference?
  461. Ge0rG ...regarding the notification sound
  462. SouL I would use the same as 1to1 chat
  463. moparisthebest I'd say from a user perspective they are the same, both messages I want to see
  464. moparisthebest unless I silenced notifications for that muc/user
  465. Ge0rG moparisthebest: "they" = what?
  466. moparisthebest "they" = muc-pm / regular message
  467. Ge0rG so different from MUCs.
  468. moparisthebest yea mucs too
  469. Ge0rG moparisthebest: please re-read my question.
  470. SouL Ge0rG, I would follow the rules for message notifications.
  471. moparisthebest ^
  472. Ge0rG SouL: thanks, I got your answer.
  473. rion I also think MUC-PM and regular contacts should produce the same notification
  474. Ge0rG MUCs are different if only they also have a "only notify on mention" setting
  475. Ge0rG Ah, it seems like MUC-PMs are already handled in the same way.
  476. Ge0rG So you don't see a need for their own category? Great.
  477. rion special notifications could be set to special contacts ❤️ =)
  478. Ge0rG I'm planning to have a per-contact-group ringtone, but what do you do if a contact is in multiple groups?
  479. Ge0rG alphabetically first group wins?
  480. rion play all at once :-D
  481. Ge0rG rion: you are evil :P
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  485. SouL jonasw, what is (or was) c.im?
  486. moparisthebest usually people abbreviate conversations.im that way
  487. SouL moparisthebest, ah ok then
  488. Ge0rG c.im is the new jcd.
  489. Guus what is the old jcd?
  490. Ge0rG jabber.ccc.de
  491. Guus ah :)
  492. hannes has left
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  494. Holger c.im is available for sale!
  495. Holger I bet it's cheap.
  496. MattJ For $$$$, I guess
  497. edhelas I was able the get back mov.im last year <3
  498. Ge0rG Sorry, c.im has already been registered.
  499. Alex has left
  500. SouL edhelas: congrats! :)
  501. SouL The one I want is only $2600
  502. Ge0rG so.ul?
  503. moparisthebest I was eyeing moparisthe.best but not worth it nowadays
  504. Ge0rG I have two domains with my lastname on dubious TLDs.
  505. Ge0rG People are always surprised when I tell them on the phone
  506. jonasw .xxx?
  507. Ge0rG Not even close
  508. SouL Gr.org
  509. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I have the same, tell people on the phone my first name @ my last name dot org
  510. SouL Ge.org
  511. moparisthebest then they go 'at gmail?' and I go 'no'
  512. jonasw moparisthebest, :<
  513. jonasw I know that feel
  514. jonasw but I think it’s because many people are stupid and confuse . with @ when spelling their mail address
  515. Ge0rG moparisthebest: and .org is pretty well-known
  516. moparisthebest I actually get odder looks/questions now that I switched to mostly giving like, if the company is BobWorks I'd give first.bobworks@last.org
  517. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's crazy talk!
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  520. moparisthebest I like it because while a human could figure it out and strip off the part after the .
  521. Ge0rG first.bobworks@last! yay!
  522. moparisthebest a computer program totally couldn't because it's a perfectly valid email, and they don't know that's my policy like they know + is strippable from gmail
  523. jonasw reminds me of the "io" tld which had A records for a while
  524. Ge0rG moparisthebest: do you think they actively strip +postfix from gmail addresses?
  525. moparisthebest I assume spammers do, why wouldn't they?
  526. Ge0rG moparisthebest: dunno
  527. moparisthebest or sleazy companies that would sell an email address
  528. Ge0rG moparisthebest: maybe because they are careless sleazy bastards?
  529. moparisthebest if only I could get a saner way to handle such aliases in xmpp
  530. moparisthebest but it looks like far too much work to be worth it
  531. Ge0rG Yeah, XMPP sucks.
  532. jonasw go matrix?
  533. Ge0rG OTOH, this feature prevents domain / user impersonation.
  534. moparisthebest this module is 'good enough' in that it fixes discovery https://modules.prosody.im/mod_alias.html
  535. moparisthebest but doesn't avoid the 'giving randoms your jid' problem
  536. SouL XMPP alias please!
  537. Guus has left
  538. SouL When are we starting with the XEP?
  539. Ge0rG I'm sure there are two or three already.
  540. moparisthebest it's perfectly doable with just changes on *your* server
  541. moparisthebest it's just super annoying, like if a@a.com sends a message to both b.alias1@b.com and b.alias2@b.com, and b responds, which jid do you send it from
  542. SaltyBones has joined
  543. moparisthebest and it involves a lot of jid rewriting, databases and such
  544. Ge0rG b.alias1+alias2@b.com
  545. moparisthebest I guess maybe if you added client support too that would make it easier, but meh
  546. jubalh has left
  547. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I would assume that you use proxy JIDs for different aliases on your side, so it would be something like a%a.com@b.alias1.b.com
  548. moparisthebest the advantage of support just on *your* server is you don't need a XEP because there is no interop to document :)
  549. moparisthebest Ge0rG, in my case I'd want it to match all my email aliases, which are a defined list of specific ones, plus me(\.|+|-)[^@]*@all-the-domains
  550. Ge0rG moparisthebest: your server could just track the alias the other user contacted first.
  551. Ge0rG moparisthebest: and auto-route accordingly
  552. moparisthebest yep that's an option, probably the best one, still not perfect
  553. Ge0rG probably good enough.
  554. jonasw reminds me of resource locking
  555. jonasw sounds like a can of worms
  556. vanitasvitae has left
  557. moparisthebest it's totally a can of worms
  558. zinid 🐛
  559. moparisthebest hence "This type of aliasing is well supported in the email world, but very hard to handle with XMPP, this module sidesteps all the hard problems by just sending the user a helpful message, requiring humans to decide what they actually want to do."
  560. Guus has left
  561. SaltyBones oh, it's basically a standardized auto-reply
  562. SaltyBones or jid squatting ;)
  563. Ge0rG Wow.
  564. Ge0rG Impressive.
  565. Ge0rG We need more JID mobility.
  566. Zash Do we, really?
  567. Ge0rG Zash: I'd like to have an easy and fully automated way to move all my contacts from my old JID to my new JID
  568. moparisthebest I just have a number of emails, 2 main ones, and I like all my emails also being JIDs, isn't that the ideal situation?
  569. Ge0rG kind of moved, but automatic
  570. Zash Ge0rG: How often do you move JIDs?
  571. Ge0rG Zash: whenever the 6-month free period on c.im expires
  572. jonasw lol
  573. Dave Cridland has left
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  575. Zash This ties back into the question of what identity is.
  576. SouL Ge0rG: haha
  577. Zash Ge0rG: Why can't we automate moved again?
  578. Ge0rG Zash: because SECURITY11!!1!! > In order to prevent other users from maliciously altering contacts the client SHOULD NOT automatically subscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives an unsubscribe and SHOULD NOT automatically unsubscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives a subscribe.
  579. Ge0rG Then followed by some constructed attack vector where some JIDs are auto-approved and others are not.
  580. jonasw xep#?
  581. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html#security
  582. Zash -xep moved
  583. Bunneh Zash: Moved (Standards Track, Deferred, 2010-06-16) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html
  584. SaltyBones Ge0rG, if we add a crypto identity we can base moving on that. (Sounds crazy but I am not kidding.)
  585. jonasw Ge0rG, that seems solvable, trivially
  586. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I've thought about that.
  587. Ge0rG SaltyBones: that would make the public key your effective identity, and the JID just a helper string.
  588. ralphm has left
  589. Zash Which isn't really the design of XMPP
  590. SaltyBones Considering how much we are thinking about those things I think we should start writing things down...
  591. jonasw oldjid unsubscribes with <moved token='xyz' new='…'/>, newjid subscribes with <moved token='xyz' old='…'/> and only then a potential reverse-subscription is re-enacted by the target
  592. Ge0rG jonasw: feel free to pick up authorship of 283, bringing it up to pace and convincing clients to implement.
  593. jonasw Ge0rG, would that work? ^
  594. Ge0rG clients or servers.
  595. jonasw would have to figure something out for one-way (stable jid to moving jid) subscriptions
  596. Ge0rG jonasw: no need for a token. you can prove ownership of both JIDs by just issuing the according <moved> stanzas.
  597. jonasw right
  598. jonasw that’s what happens already though
  599. Ge0rG jonasw: I've written down all that, before I knew of Moved, into the wiki
  600. Ge0rG but then it got lost
  601. Ge0rG SaltyBones: yes, let's reinvent XMPP as something else.
  602. jonasw so yeah, it’s really only about some weird one-way casse
  603. Ge0rG maybe an "OMEMO distribution protocol".
  604. jonasw I don’t think we should care about that too much
  605. Ge0rG jonasw: the hard part is figuring out the right order of events to make it work automatically. That and server-side caching of subscribe/unsubscribe presence packets.
  606. Ge0rG Don't remember the exact rules
  607. Ge0rG BTW, when is PARS bound to expire?
  608. Alex has joined
  609. jonasw defer, you mean?
  610. jonasw xep#?
  611. jonasw !xep 379
  612. SaltyBones Ge0rG, is this about the crypto IDs?
  613. jonasw Ge0rG, february 16th
  614. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I'm not sure.
  615. Alex has joined
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  617. Ge0rG jonasw: wow, need to add some more meat to it until then.
  618. jonasw I need to get some ecaps2 implmenetation in some server
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  638. Holger Seems https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ has the current XEP-0363 revision (0.4.0) but not the two 0.3.x revisions.
  639. hannes has joined
  640. zinid Holger, this is not the only such XEP, I recall I couldn't find old versions of MAM or something
  641. Holger :-/
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  684. jonasw Holger, yes
  685. jonasw attic is a manual process
  686. jonasw it sucks
  687. jonasw editors have to remember to copy them over
  688. jonasw I don’t remember that always
  689. Zash :/
  690. Holger Nice.
  691. moparisthebest is there a reason to have it with version control?
  692. moparisthebest can't a xep just be looked at at any revision?
  693. jonasw I already automated the copying-over of the changed versions, and if we ever get this scripting server-side, it should magically worked
  694. jonasw moparisthebest, yes, but you’d have to know which revision is a specific version
  695. jonasw if we knew that, we could generate the attic auotomatically
  696. moparisthebest tags?
  697. jonasw we don’t have those
  698. moparisthebest (since they can be added later)
  699. jonasw moparisthebest, if you did those, that’d be amazing
  700. moparisthebest something like xep-0368-0.0.1 or something
  701. jonasw yeah
  702. jonasw but it’s tedious to do
  703. Zash for each revision, check the last version in the source, something something
  704. moparisthebest would be kind of hard to back fill, could be easy going forward
  705. zinid tags sound like a sane idea
  706. Zash should be doable with way more scripting hackery than I have the energy for now
  707. jonasw Zash, not sufficient; sometimes version blocks are added before the last editorial change
  708. Zash jonasw: would it be good enough?
  709. moparisthebest oh hey, what about just checking out each version and matching sha1sum to a current attic xml for backfil?
  710. jonasw Zash, probably
  711. jonasw moparisthebest, except that attic doesn’t always have XMLs
  712. moparisthebest that would get you exactly what is in attic now, then you could tweak later
  713. jonasw gotta go
  714. moparisthebest oh, well does it *mostly* have them?
  715. Zash moparisthebest: maybe, assuming they haven't been changed in any way (think character encoding or newlines) since
  716. moparisthebest I would assume they were copied from version control and not touched
  717. moparisthebest could be a wrong assumption
  718. Zash but the HTML is not under version control
  719. Zash those are build artefacts, copied after build
  720. moparisthebest yea I think it'd only work if there was xml there
  721. Zash might depend on the version of xsltproc and whatnot
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  724. moparisthebest looks like we need editors to ping stpeter about pinging Joe Salowey again about adding xep-368 alpn IDs here https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids
  725. moparisthebest since last time when he said he'd add them, looks like 'CoAP' whatever that is has been added
  726. moparisthebest but still no xmpp love :'(
  727. Zash Why don't you do it?
  728. moparisthebest it's officially an editor task
  729. Zash join the editor team, send an email, retire to a life of luxury
  730. moparisthebest well editor team tried to ping joe salowey twice without luck, and stpeter had to take over :)
  731. moparisthebest I'll probably wait until stpeter joins back and ping him again hehe
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  734. moparisthebest https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft that's the card looks like
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