Tuesday, January 30, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
January
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
       
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:14:37] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:17:49] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:18:29] *** efrit has left the room
[00:18:43] *** efrit has joined the room
[00:19:30] *** Zash has left the room
[00:25:04] *** Zash has joined the room
[00:25:05] *** Zash has left the room
[00:37:22] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:37:22] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[00:43:24] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:43:24] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:43:31] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:43:32] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[00:49:33] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:49:33] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[00:49:34] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[00:50:03] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[00:55:24] *** waqas has left the room
[01:02:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:03:45] *** efrit has left the room
[01:03:56] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:09:05] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:16:03] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:29:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:29:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:39:27] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[01:46:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[01:46:23] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[01:54:50] *** Alex shows as "online"
[01:54:50] *** Alex has left the room
[02:11:06] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[02:20:06] *** ralphm has joined the room
[02:21:45] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[02:22:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:22:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:42:03] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[03:03:48] *** tux has left the room
[03:03:48] *** tux has joined the room
[03:19:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[03:37:50] *** Alex shows as "online"
[03:37:51] *** Alex has left the room
[03:58:58] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[03:59:05] *** matlag shows as "online"
[04:00:53] *** hannes has left the room
[04:00:54] *** hannes has joined the room
[04:07:49] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[04:09:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:09:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[04:09:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:09:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[04:12:28] *** uc has joined the room
[04:12:51] *** @Alacer has left the room
[04:12:55] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[04:14:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[04:19:52] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[04:28:52] *** Alex has left the room
[05:11:56] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[05:16:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[05:16:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[05:16:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[05:16:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[05:20:07] *** jjrh has left the room
[05:20:23] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[05:56:43] *** hannes has left the room
[05:56:47] *** hannes has joined the room
[06:03:40] *** lumi has joined the room
[06:04:22] *** efrit has joined the room
[06:07:04] *** goffi has joined the room
[06:29:23] *** lumi has left the room
[06:31:10] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:35:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:37:00] *** efrit has left the room
[06:40:58] *** zinid shows as "online"
[06:46:57] *** matlag has left the room
[06:49:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:50:02] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:51:26] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:55:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:55:42] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:55:45] *** intosi shows as "online"
[07:01:47] *** zinid has left the room
[07:03:42] *** lovetox has joined the room
[07:05:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:06:31] *** lovetox has left the room
[07:07:48] *** nyco has left the room
[07:10:13] *** lovetox has joined the room
[07:10:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:11:05] *** Guus has left the room
[07:11:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:15:49] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:18:08] *** nyco shows as "online"
[07:22:03] *** hannes has joined the room
[07:22:22] *** Guus has left the room
[07:25:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:25:50] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:29:04] *** nyco has left the room
[07:29:10] *** nyco shows as "online"
[07:29:27] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:29:40] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:31:30] *** zinid shows as "online"
[07:32:27] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:33:34] *** lovetox has left the room
[07:36:53] *** zinid has left the room
[07:37:41] *** zinid shows as "online"
[07:41:22] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:56:45] <jonasw> Neustradamus, where would we have to have announce that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?
[07:57:10] <Ge0rG> There was a piece of news indeed.
[07:58:14] <jonasw> Neustradamus, where would we have to have announced that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?
[07:58:17] <jonasw> english is hard
[07:59:03] <Ge0rG> My clients will expire in March. Need to resubmit urgently.
[08:00:44] <Guus> ah, are we already a year in?
[08:00:47] <Guus> time flies
[08:00:56] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[08:01:37] <Ge0rG> fruit flies too
[08:01:47] <jonasw> like an arrow, or like a banana?
[08:02:04] <intosi> Unspecified fruit.
[08:02:30] <Ge0rG> Like a sparrow.
[08:02:35] <jonasw> I always forget I have merge power on xmpp.org. I should recall that more often while Guus is busy with SCAMing.
[08:02:49] *** nyco has left the room
[08:02:57] <Guus> JONAS STOP PRESSING BUTTONS MILLISECONDS BEFORE I DO!
[08:03:11] <Guus> *click* miss *click* miss (<-- me, this morning)
[08:03:39] <jonasw> Guus, I think you’ve set OLCUC in your termin… oh you fixed it
[08:03:39] <jonasw> :)
[08:03:58] <jonasw> I only merged one thing, didn’t I?
[08:04:08] <Guus> and closed an issue :)
[08:04:13] <jonasw> ah right
[08:05:42] <jonasw> that’s going to be a fun discussion
[08:06:47] <jonasw> oh sweet, the build failed
[08:07:05] <jonasw> Guus, or someone else with power, could you take a look? https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/borgns4wfclmgndzdyqvnjc/
[08:07:07] <jonasw> the CI passed
[08:07:15] <jonasw> a simple re-trigger may do the trick
[08:07:17] *** waqas has joined the room
[08:07:23] <jonasw> (I don’t have the power for that)
[08:08:18] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:08:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:09:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:09:46] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:13:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:17:50] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[08:22:28] <Guus> again? Same thing happened yesterday
[08:22:36] <jonasw> I pushed an empty commit now :)
[08:22:39] <Guus> https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/
[08:22:47] <Guus> right, a new build is already queued
[08:23:03] <Guus> I wonder why it errors out occasionally
[08:23:21] <Guus> Do you see a non-empty log or something?
[08:23:25] <jonasw> no
[08:23:39] <jonasw> I was hoping you might, with your additional permissions etc.
[08:23:39] <Guus> weird
[08:23:42] <Guus> nope
[08:24:17] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[08:24:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:26:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:26:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:27:43] *** lumi has joined the room
[08:30:24] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[08:37:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:37:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:39:52] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:41:45] *** @Alacer has left the room
[08:41:46] *** waqas has left the room
[08:41:49] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[08:42:34] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[08:47:02] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:47:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:47:34] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[08:47:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:48:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:48:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[08:48:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:49:30] *** lumi shows as "online"
[08:50:12] *** Zash has joined the room
[08:52:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:57:22] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:57:29] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:59:56] <Neustradamus> jonasw: here some days ago
[09:01:36] <jonasw> Neustradamus, well, the policy has been active for nearly a year now
[09:01:44] <jonasw> so clearly we haven’t done a good job communicating it
[09:01:52] <jonasw> but I’d like to know what we could’ve done better
[09:03:11] <Neustradamus> yes I managed before (some years ago) ^^
The lists were more importants
[09:03:37] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[09:04:48] <jonasw> Neustradamus, cf. https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
[09:06:15] <Neustradamus> thanks jonasw
[09:06:47] <Ge0rG> The idea behind that rule is btw that *application authors* enlist their software, as long as they consider it as maintained.
[09:11:39] *** Bunneh has left the room
[09:11:39] *** Bunneh has joined the room
[09:11:39] *** Bunneh shows as "online"
[09:11:45] *** ralphm has joined the room
[09:13:19] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[09:13:52] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[09:14:05] <Guus> (I for one don't care much about _who_ is doing the listing, as long as _someone_ is keeping it up-to-date - that's enough to keep the really old, unmaintained and undesireable stuff out of the list)
[09:15:16] <Ge0rG> Guus: the effect I want to avoid is that loyal users of a client abandoned a decade ago insist on keeping it listed.
[09:15:40] <Guus> well, if it has loyal users, it probably has at least some reason for being listed
[09:15:56] <Guus> arguably not the best of reasons, but I'd be able to live with it
[09:16:37] <Guus> (if it has loyal users, it's by definition not completely abandoned)
[09:16:50] <Ge0rG> Guus: and then you'll end up with Pidgin/OTR, which breaks the experience both for the newcomers and the people they are trying to talk to.
[09:17:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:17:43] <Guus> Ge0rG: if people want to use pidgin / OTR, then that's an issue that's to be addressed seperately.
[09:18:27] <Guus> I think we shouldn't put to much thought/motivation in the decision we make to list something. What we have now is something that I'm pretty happy with.
[09:18:38] <Ge0rG> Guus: the list is obviously for newcomers. If you have a friend who insists on you getting abused with pidgin/OTR (just to stick to the example), that's fine with me. But please keep it off the official list.
[09:18:41] <Guus> let's not overthink something that works 95% well.
[09:18:43] <mathieui> Ge0rG, I’m planning to write an XMPP bot that reminds subscribed people about the expiration from the list of clients/servers/libraries (when I have 15 minutes and enough motivation)
[09:18:45] <mathieui> that would help
[09:18:55] <Ge0rG> mathieui: that would be awesome.
[09:19:05] <Guus> perhaps we should _not_ do that
[09:19:22] <Guus> as that will facilitate automatic, no-brains-used, renewals
[09:19:25] <Ge0rG> mathieui: I suppose all the proposals of client maintainers having a structured metadata file somewhere are way too complex
[09:19:35] <Guus> which would cause the list to fill up with stale data again.
[09:19:44] <mathieui> Ge0rG, I don’t
[09:19:58] <mathieui> but it would need to be done (we discussed it briefly at 34C3)
[09:20:56] <Guus> I do disagree with there being a need for automatic renewal, or a reminder facilitated by the XSF.
[09:21:14] <mathieui> Guus, I wasn’t planning of having it being any kind of official
[09:21:41] <Guus> the thought behind the forced expiry is that people need to actively be maintaining the software listing. Any form of automation fights that principle.
[09:22:35] <mathieui> it’s automation of reminder; when doing things once a year, it’s very easy to forget
[09:23:01] <Guus> mathieui: you really don't need to wait a year to apply for a renewal. I think I've renewed my stuff about three times, last year
[09:23:24] <Guus> (pushing the expiry date by a couple of months every time)
[09:23:29] <Ge0rG> Guus: just because you can directly commit to the repo, everybody else needs to make a PR
[09:23:44] <Guus> the PR can be made in github (which is exactly what I do)
[09:23:52] <Guus> PRs get accepted within a couple of hours, typically
[09:24:03] <Ge0rG> Guus: by yourself? ;)
[09:24:38] <Ge0rG> I'm just saying that it would be impolite for any non-editor to make updates far more often than strictly necessary.
[09:24:55] <Guus> two / three times a year is hardly 'far more'
[09:25:37] <Guus> I'm not saying that individual authors should have some kind of reminder - but please lets not facilitate that - it defeats the purpose of our expiry mechanism - that's all I'm saying.
[09:26:13] <mathieui> Ge0rG, this is only a one-line change with an explicit title, so it’s essentially a two-three clicks effort for editors
[09:26:57] <mathieui> I guess I’ll just put that in the topic of the poezio room
[09:27:20] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:27:42] <Guus> fwiw: the readme provides links that allow you to directly edit the files: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data
[09:28:14] <Ge0rG> There are only nine warnings in clients.json. Apparently nobody cares about the `platform` field.
[09:28:31] <Ge0rG> WARN: entry 'GreenJab': undefined platforms: 'IBM i' (the allowed platforms are listed in platforms.json. If you think a platform is missing add it and mention it in your Pull Request)
[09:28:35] <Ge0rG> WTH is IBM i?
[09:28:44] *** rion has joined the room
[09:29:08] <Ge0rG> jonasw: time to swing the Hammer of Enforcement!
[09:30:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:35:05] *** hannes has joined the room
[09:38:47] <Ge0rG> Guus: thanks very much :)
[09:39:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:39:11] <Ge0rG> So, what's with all those clients running on undefined platforms?
[09:41:04] <Guus> what do you mean?
[09:41:09] <Guus> https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html <-- looks okay?
[09:41:16] *** zinid has left the room
[09:42:49] <Guus> I'm guestimating that we kept the old list intact, including the no-longer-supported-platforms, only to enfore platforms when the entry is actually renewed?
[09:43:19] *** hannes has joined the room
[09:43:22] <Ge0rG> Guus: oh, thanks for the explanation.
[09:43:46] <Ge0rG> Guus: interested in a s/unsupported/"other"/ PR?
[09:45:06] <Guus> well, if the entries with unsupported stuff have not been renewed and therefore are not being displayed anyway, I don't really see the point - but let me not stop you putting in effort to improve things :)
[09:47:01] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:47:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:48:23] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:48:23] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:49:01] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[09:51:44] <rion> Guus: is the list on the page autogenerated?
[09:51:58] <Ge0rG> rion: yes it is
[09:52:48] *** Guus has left the room
[09:52:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:53:24] <Ge0rG> it'll probably take some minutes
[09:54:20] <Guus> yeah, it takes some time
[09:55:04] <Guus> psi is on there now though
[09:56:19] *** lumi shows as "online"
[09:56:49] <Ge0rG> rion: what's the difference between Psi and Psi+?
[09:57:26] *** Syndace has joined the room
[09:59:27] *** Syndace has left the room
[09:59:31] *** Syndace has joined the room
[09:59:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:03:33] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:04:22] *** Guus has left the room
[10:05:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, don’t bother with replacing unsupported platforms with "other". we’ll deal with it when they’re renewed, I think that’s most sane.
[10:06:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, admit it, you spoofed the timestamps of your renewal!
[10:07:12] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I wanted to see if anyone notices.
[10:07:37] <jonasw> ha
[10:07:38] <jonasw> I do
[10:07:55] <jonasw> (but I only did because you lured me into the diff with the trademark remark)
[10:08:28] *** lumi has left the room
[10:11:58] *** Guus has left the room
[10:16:22] *** Guus has joined the room
[10:17:45] <rion> Ge0rG: Psi+ includes some experimental patches not yet merged to Psi.
[10:18:23] <Guus> I happily accept anything that passes the parser (which does have a check for forward-dated renewals)
[10:19:05] <Guus> also, I happily accept stuff from people I deem trustworthy.
[10:19:15] *Guus eyes Ge0rG
[10:19:28] <jonasw> not sure if that is a good glance or not
[10:19:49] <zinid> rion, when psi will support carbons, mam, SM and so on?
[10:20:28] <Ge0rG> rion: which one would you recommend to normal users?
[10:21:22] <zinid> you should really hate users to recommend them Psi :P
[10:21:22] <rion> zinid: carbons and SM are supported. mam is in progress.
[10:21:43] <rion> Ge0rG: stable one.
[10:22:08] <zinid> rion, supported in which version?
[10:22:36] <rion> zinid: one on https://psi-im.org
[10:22:52] <Ge0rG> rion: maybe you shouldn't be advertising psi+ then? ;)
[10:23:56] <rion> Ge0rG: It depends on users. Some of them like new features.
[10:24:38] <jonasw> rion, the question is, is Psi+ stable?
[10:25:47] <rion> Less then Psi. But mostly yes. We don't make releases for it. So it's possible to have something broken with each next build.
[10:26:07] <jonasw> rion, I’d argue don’t advertise this on the client list then
[10:26:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:27:11] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[10:28:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:28:33] <Ge0rG> I agree with jonasw - if you don't have releases, you shouldn't be advertising it to normal users.
[10:28:49] <SouL> rion, I'm suprised you saying that about Psi+
[10:28:57] <SouL> I've been using it for... I cannot remember
[10:29:05] <SouL> And I would not say is not stable or anything
[10:30:04] <SouL> I'm really surprised. And features don't come to Psi quickly in any way.
[10:30:07] <SouL> Or have that changed?
[10:30:44] <rion> for example if you enable multi-row tabs you can have rare crashes and kind of bad rendering on hidpi.
[10:31:14] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[10:31:50] *** ralphm has left the room
[10:32:18] <rion> I use Psi+ all the time. It's works pretty stable for me. But usually I don't use the features introduced by those patches.
[10:33:22] *** ralphm has joined the room
[10:33:22] *** hannes has joined the room
[10:34:08] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[10:38:06] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[10:38:19] *** Martin has joined the room
[10:39:41] <rion> SouL: My goal after all to merge these projects into one. And I already merged quite a big chunk of patches. Psi+ keeps only those I considered bad-designed, useless or unstable. I'll refine and merge them all with time or may be some of them will be converted to plugins.
[10:40:32] <Kev> One of the XSF's earliest GSoC projects :)
[10:40:42] <Kev> (Although I doubt there's much relationship between the current code and the original)
[10:44:27] <SouL> rion, that sounds great!
I understand now then :(
[10:44:32] <SouL> :)*
[10:50:58] <rion> or may be I'll join Swift team instead )))
[10:51:08] <SouL> Ha :D
[10:51:50] *** jubalh has joined the room
[10:54:05] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[10:54:20] *** blabla has left the room
[10:54:27] *** blabla has joined the room
[10:56:02] *** blabla shows as "online"
[10:56:32] <Kev> I hear that's a thing Psi devs sometimes do.
[10:59:26] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:59:32] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:03:25] *** zinid shows as "online"
[11:03:38] <Ge0rG> Is remuneration involved in that process?
[11:03:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:03:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:04:05] *** blabla shows as "online"
[11:04:10] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:06:05] <rion> rarely
[11:06:42] <Guus> > (12:03) test: is xmpp providing gradle ?
[11:07:00] <jonasw> what
[11:07:10] <Guus> that's form our support muc just now
[11:07:11] <Ge0rG> I've lost motivation to report issues in Swift rather fast, because all my tickets were closed immediately with either "moved to private tracker" or WONTFIX.
[11:07:45] <Ge0rG> Guus: the right answer is: "no, because gradle is not based on XML. But we offer ant"
[11:08:01] <Guus> maven?
[11:08:07] <Ge0rG> Can do.
[11:08:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:12:38] <zinid> rion, didn't work for me
[11:13:41] <Ge0rG> zinid: you were a Psi developer?
[11:13:52] <zinid> Ge0rG, no
[11:14:21] <zinid> I tried last version and it didn't have any carbons or sm support
[11:15:11] *** pep. has left the room
[11:15:18] <Ge0rG> You don't need Carbons on a desktop client. Just configure it to priority 127 and beg that nobody does resource locking.
[11:15:59] <zinid> lol
[11:16:04] <zinid> typical jabber
[11:16:12] <rion> zinid: no idea. I believe this code wasn't changed since the release. and both features work good for me.
[11:16:21] <rion> I'll check later
[11:16:49] <Ge0rG> I only remember that this time last year, Psi didn't have support for Carbons.
[11:17:00] <Ge0rG> so CVE-2017-5593 only affected Psi+
[11:19:08] <zinid> rion, just checked 1.3, seems like SM and Carbons are working indeed, thanks
[11:19:34] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:19:50] <zinid> still MAM is lacking...
[11:19:56] <zinid> and modern UI would be much appreciated
[11:20:40] <zinid> wow, captcha support
[11:20:43] <zinid> I'm impressed
[11:21:01] <SouL> :)
[11:21:52] *** pep. shows as "online"
[11:22:24] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[11:25:26] <zinid> rion, Psi doesn't close a stream correctly, which leads to stalled resumed session ;)
[11:25:48] <zinid> it must send </stream:stream>
[11:26:38] <rion> Yes. I know. I remember this bug and in fact Psi has code sending stream close. I had no spare time to debug yet.
[11:26:53] <zinid> I see
[11:27:32] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:29:49] <zinid> the main problem of jabber is that development is done in spare time only ;)
[11:30:12] <MattJ> +1
[11:30:30] <jonasw> and when it isn’t, it actually flies, kinda. see c.im
[11:31:03] <rion> zinid: do you have a vacancy in ProcessOne? =)
[11:32:07] <zinid> rion, no :) We already fired a half of staff
[11:33:13] <mimi89999> Why?
[11:33:14] <rion> Now they will keep working in working on xmpp in their spare time...
[11:33:51] <zinid> mimi89999, because the number of customers has decreased drastically in recent years since XMPP is degrading
[11:34:01] <zinid> so we don't need an army of developers anymore
[11:34:23] <mimi89999> 🙁
[11:35:31] *** ralphm has joined the room
[11:37:02] <mimi89999> But why people don't like XMPP? I guess FB hidden marketing and network effect is really strong...
[11:39:17] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:40:03] <Holger> It's neither HTTP nor JSON.
[11:40:11] <zinid> mimi89999: because it has a reputation of outdated protocol
[11:40:43] <MattJ> I think it would be a mistake to pin a company's success on a protocol's reputation
[11:41:28] <zinid> One may argue, but the problem is that reputation is not a technical term, you cannot improve it by creating a better protocol
[11:41:50] <MattJ> SMTP isn't exactly cool nowadays either, but it still does the job it was designed to and many successful companies are based around it still
[11:42:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:42:26] *** nyco shows as "online"
[11:42:38] <zinid> MattJ: sure, but protocol degradation is a part of this for sure, I know that because you cannot attract new customer because they don't want xmpp
[11:43:21] <zinid> So we actually stopped mentioning xmpp at all
[11:43:26] <Holger> MattJ: SMTP is a special case because it was so ubiquitous, no? I bet business around it is declining as well, just from a very high level.
[11:43:32] <mimi89999> Point them to good articles about XMPP.
[11:43:59] <mimi89999> Like that Json API on HTTP is better (not).
[11:45:20] *** valo has joined the room
[11:45:33] <MattJ> Holger, as far as standard IM protocols go, I'd say XMPP is fairly ubiquitous
[11:46:05] <zinid> MattJ: not in the sense of user base
[11:46:12] *** ralphm has joined the room
[11:46:23] *** hannes has joined the room
[11:46:41] <MattJ> Combine WhatsApp with Google and (once...) Facebook and that's a fairly large user base
[11:47:20] <MattJ> What failed is that none of these federate(d) in the way they were essentially forced to with SMTP
[11:47:43] <zinid> It's hard to call whatsapp's protocol an xmpp 😁
[11:48:11] <MattJ> It's derived from it, at least, and I think that counts enough for the purposes of this discussion
[11:48:18] <zinid> It used to be so (because based on ejabberd), but not anymore
[11:49:47] <Holger> MattJ: Well the discussion was about the business perspective, where I think WhatsApp & friends are irrelevant. If you build your business around SMTP, you can still reach many users; with XMPP, you reach nobody.
[11:50:17] <Holger> I'm not into p1's business but I would assume the typical customer isn't doing s2s at all.
[11:50:28] <MattJ> Most business uses of XMPP are not interested in federation
[11:50:53] <zinid> Holger: there was only a single customer with s2s: Nokia 😁
[11:51:16] <MattJ> so, if you wanted to replicate the success of WhatsApp, why would not not start with XMPP, as they did?
[11:51:32] <Holger> MattJ: Right. So the alternative is XMPP vs. random other chat solutions and the open aspect is irrelevant except in that it leads to library/infrastructure code being available.
[11:51:38] <MattJ> I don't think anyone expects to take any off-the-shelf tech and scale it as far as WhatsApp have done without customisation
[11:51:55] <zinid> MattJ: many do: every our customer wants to become WhatsApp 😁
[11:52:23] <rion> Let's rename XMPP to WhatsApp2 protocol
[11:52:24] <MattJ> Well WhatsApp's success wasn't due to federation, or its protocol - these things are irrelevant to users
[11:52:30] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:53:00] <zinid> MattJ: then there is no point in using xmpp? Because it's irrelevant
[11:53:24] <MattJ> There's similarly no point in *not* using it
[11:53:29] *** blabla has left the room
[11:53:32] <Holger> HTTP!
[11:53:33] <Holger> JSON!
[11:53:36] <jonasw> what Holger says
[11:53:40] <MattJ> Which is the point I'm trying to make - if you're solving a problem for your customers, why do they care about the protocol?
[11:53:57] <jonasw> MattJ, because HTTP passes through all firewalls, XMPP won’t.
[11:54:11] <MattJ> and like many other problems, XMPP already solved that
[11:54:16] <jonasw> did it?
[11:54:17] <MattJ> (in many ways, as usual)
[11:54:21] <MattJ> BOSH?
[11:54:33] <jonasw> by bother with BOSH+XMPP when you could use HTTP+json on your own?
[11:54:36] <MattJ> BOSH works perfectly through firewalls
[11:54:49] <jonasw> (in addition to BOSH being ugly and you’d want to use websockets nowadays)
[11:54:58] <MattJ> Well, we can do that too
[11:55:07] <Holger> There's JavaScript frameworks everywhere to throw JSON at a web service.
[11:55:07] <MattJ> I still don't think BOSH is ugly compared to websockets though :)
[11:55:12] <Holger> A new framework every other day!
[11:55:21] <Kev> Is that true? That you'd automatically want WSS instead of BOSH?
[11:55:24] <Holger> And all your devs have done this stuff several times.
[11:55:38] <jonasw> Kev, tbh, I don’t know a lot about web
[11:55:45] <Holger> None of them ever touched that XMP-what?! thing.
[11:55:45] <jonasw> but the concept of BOSH always irritated me
[11:56:02] <jonasw> Holger, and all the darn myths about XML aren’t helping
[11:56:08] <Holger> Right.
[11:56:12] <jonasw> (even though it is amusing to see how the JSON folks reinvent the XML data model)
[11:56:21] <Holger> Absolutely.
[11:56:34] <zinid> MattJ: bosh is much more complicated for sure and infact replicates SM behaviour
[11:56:46] <Kev> 295 is funny because it's true :p
[11:57:06] <jonasw> Kev, oh yes
[11:57:08] <MattJ> zinid, sure - I've written multiple BOSH implementations, client and server-side
[11:57:22] <Holger> MattJ: I'm not saying the typical business decision against XMPP is purely rational. Though I'm not sure it's purely irrational. But either way it doesn't help to just ignore those business reasonings.
[11:57:41] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:58:12] <zinid> MattJ: same here and I hate it
[11:58:38] <zinid> I actually don't understand why wss+sm is not enough
[11:59:08] <jonasw> zinid, because ws is rather new-ish and people haven’t gotten around to implement it yet?
[11:59:12] <jonasw> (spare time developers)
[11:59:34] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:00:14] *** nyco has left the room
[12:00:14] <Holger> I think jcbrand mentioned that Converse.js supports both but he prefers BOSH. He didn't really explain the reasons though, IIRC.
[12:00:59] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[12:01:00] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[12:02:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:02:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:03:24] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[12:03:42] <zinid> jonasw: newish? The RFC was accepted in October 2014, it will be 4 years soon
[12:03:47] <jonasw> zinid, yes.
[12:03:56] <jonasw> that’s newish in spare time developer terms
[12:04:03] <zinid> Ok
[12:04:10] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[12:04:19] <jonasw> or maybe it’s just me because I don’t follow web technologies a lot
[12:04:29] <zinid> But can we start recommending it instead of bosh?
[12:05:20] <zinid> Clearly we have several specs with the same functionality again
[12:06:46] <MattJ> The working group that created websockets looked at BOSH and considered it, or something very like it, to be the foundation of websockets
[12:06:58] <zinid> And "IE9 doesn't support WS" is not terribly convincing 😁
[12:07:38] <MattJ> I think ultimately BOSH is something you can already do in JS yourself, a binary-safe guaranteed persistent connection is not
[12:08:57] <zinid> I didn't get that, but whatever
[12:08:58] *** Holger shows as "online"
[12:09:10] *** valo has left the room
[12:09:15] *** Holger has left the room
[12:09:34] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:09:49] *** valo has joined the room
[12:09:58] *** nyco shows as "online"
[12:10:37] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[12:10:47] *** Martin shows as "online"
[12:10:53] *** efrit has joined the room
[12:11:00] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:13:11] <Holger> Seems XEP section anchors such as this one aren't stable? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139605353378912
[12:13:25] <MattJ> I've always assumed they are not
[12:13:35] <MattJ> I don't know where they come from though
[12:13:42] <Holger> Sigh.
[12:13:44] <jonasw> Holger, normally, the anchor is set in the code
[12:14:17] <Holger> I referenced that section (in an ejabberd issue) yesterday and it seems the anchor has changed since then.
[12:14:18] <jonasw> it’s not been set there :(
[12:14:54] <jonasw> we can now either set the current id as persistent, the old id as persistent or an arbitrary new identifier.
[12:14:55] <jonasw> pick one
[12:15:18] <Holger> Sometimes there's human-readable identifiers, right? They're much nicer of course.
[12:15:27] <Ge0rG> +1 for human-readable identifiers :>
[12:15:43] <jonasw> Holger, yeah. as mentioned, those are set in the XEP XML
[12:15:52] <jonasw> when they’re not set, they’re generated "randomly" apparently
[12:16:00] <jonasw> so I can now either set a human-readable one or one of the random IDs
[12:16:01] <zinid> Humans in XMPP detected
[12:16:22] <Ge0rG> jonasw: set a human readable one
[12:16:44] <Ge0rG> Then make a linter script to check all XEPs. Then crowdsource slugification
[12:16:58] <jonasw> I wish I had time to finish xeplint
[12:18:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:18:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:18:33] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:18:36] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[12:22:22] <jonasw> Holger, fix pushed, will be live in ~1.5h
[12:22:34] <jonasw> new anchor is #business-storeret-user-archives
[12:23:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:23:35] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:23:37] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:24:52] *** suzyo has joined the room
[12:28:18] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[12:28:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:30:48] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:30:50] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:32:01] <Holger> jonasw: Thank you!
[12:39:29] *** Alex has joined the room
[12:41:32] *** jubalh has left the room
[12:47:32] *** rion shows as "away"
[12:47:53] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[12:49:04] *** rion shows as "online"
[12:53:41] *** tux shows as "away"
[12:55:28] *** valo has joined the room
[12:55:57] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:56:02] *** Martin shows as "online"
[12:58:29] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[12:59:21] *** efrit has left the room
[13:01:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:01:17] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[13:01:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:02:48] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[13:04:09] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:04:09] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[13:05:06] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:05:48] *** Holger shows as "online"
[13:06:16] *** Holger has left the room
[13:07:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:10:10] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:10:11] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:11:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:16:28] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:16:28] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[13:21:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:21:56] *** Holger shows as "online"
[13:25:20] *** hannes has joined the room
[13:27:20] *** Holger has left the room
[13:27:52] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[13:27:57] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[13:30:04] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:30:05] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:31:47] *** Guus has left the room
[13:31:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:32:35] *** ralphm has left the room
[13:32:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:33:53] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:33:53] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[13:41:41] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[13:43:22] *** Guus has left the room
[13:43:59] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[13:44:23] *** @Alacer has left the room
[13:44:32] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[13:49:30] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:50:51] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:50:51] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[13:51:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:51:01] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[13:53:08] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:53:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:54:46] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:54:55] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[13:57:49] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:58:07] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:58:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:58:17] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:58:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:58:21] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:58:28] *** blabla shows as "online"
[13:58:44] *** blabla has left the room
[13:58:45] *** blabla shows as "online"
[13:59:53] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:59:54] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[14:00:36] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:04:19] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:04:38] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:06:45] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:07:31] *** hannes has joined the room
[14:09:35] *** lumi has joined the room
[14:09:49] *** uc has joined the room
[14:11:18] *** rion shows as "away"
[14:11:48] *** rion shows as "online"
[14:13:58] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[14:14:28] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:15:45] *** Martin has left the room
[14:17:58] *** Syndace has left the room
[14:18:03] *** Syndace has joined the room
[14:18:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:18:37] *** Martin has joined the room
[14:18:42] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:18:46] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:32:21] *** nyco has left the room
[14:32:40] *** nyco shows as "online"
[14:34:57] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[14:37:22] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:41:17] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[14:41:39] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[14:41:41] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[14:42:06] *** matlag has left the room
[14:42:09] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:42:16] *** matlag has joined the room
[14:45:35] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[14:47:22] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:48:25] *** matlag has joined the room
[14:53:16] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[14:57:19] *** jjrh has left the room
[14:57:24] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[14:57:27] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[15:04:14] *** Kev has left the room
[15:08:22] *** Alex has left the room
[15:08:40] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[15:08:41] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "ill"
[15:08:48] *** Alex has joined the room
[15:10:24] *** rion shows as "away"
[15:10:33] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:11:14] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:12:02] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[15:12:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:12:22] *** Alex has left the room
[15:12:25] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:12:28] *** Alex has joined the room
[15:13:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:14:04] *** rion shows as "online"
[15:15:30] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[15:15:52] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:16:53] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[15:24:59] *** Martin shows as "online"
[15:25:13] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[15:28:44] *** Martin has left the room
[15:30:16] *** Kev has left the room
[15:30:52] <Ge0rG> Should a MUC-PM notification follow the rules for message notifications, for MUC notifications or have a dedicated notification preference?
[15:31:03] <Ge0rG> ...regarding the notification sound
[15:31:38] <SouL> I would use the same as 1to1 chat
[15:31:53] <moparisthebest> I'd say from a user perspective they are the same, both messages I want to see
[15:32:07] <moparisthebest> unless I silenced notifications for that muc/user
[15:32:13] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: "they" = what?
[15:32:39] <moparisthebest> "they" = muc-pm / regular message
[15:32:49] <Ge0rG> so different from MUCs.
[15:33:02] <moparisthebest> yea mucs too
[15:33:18] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: please re-read my question.
[15:34:06] <SouL> Ge0rG, I would follow the rules for message notifications.
[15:34:16] <moparisthebest> ^
[15:34:41] <Ge0rG> SouL: thanks, I got your answer.
[15:35:02] <rion> I also think MUC-PM and regular contacts should produce the same notification
[15:35:08] <Ge0rG> MUCs are different if only they also have a "only notify on mention" setting
[15:35:42] <Ge0rG> Ah, it seems like MUC-PMs are already handled in the same way.
[15:35:52] <Ge0rG> So you don't see a need for their own category? Great.
[15:36:11] <rion> special notifications could be set to special contacts ❤️ =)
[15:37:00] <Ge0rG> I'm planning to have a per-contact-group ringtone, but what do you do if a contact is in multiple groups?
[15:37:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:37:20] <Ge0rG> alphabetically first group wins?
[15:37:20] <rion> play all at once :-D
[15:37:28] <Ge0rG> rion: you are evil :P
[15:38:14] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[15:38:16] *** Alex shows as "online"
[15:39:02] *** nyco has left the room
[15:39:59] *** nyco shows as "online"
[15:41:41] *** Martin has joined the room
[15:41:47] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[15:41:52] *** Martin shows as "online"
[15:43:51] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:47:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:47:20] <SouL> jonasw, what is (or was) c.im?
[15:47:40] <moparisthebest> usually people abbreviate conversations.im that way
[15:48:08] <SouL> moparisthebest, ah ok then
[15:48:18] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[15:52:38] <Ge0rG> c.im is the new jcd.
[15:55:16] <Guus> what is the old jcd?
[15:57:37] <Ge0rG> jabber.ccc.de
[15:58:28] <Guus> ah :)
[16:00:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:02:14] *** hannes has left the room
[16:02:17] *** hannes has joined the room
[16:04:04] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[16:06:18] <Holger> c.im is available for sale!
[16:06:30] <Holger> I bet it's cheap.
[16:06:34] <MattJ> For $$$$, I guess
[16:08:19] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:08:30] <edhelas> I was able the get back mov.im last year <3
[16:09:47] <Ge0rG> Sorry, c.im has already been registered.
[16:10:37] *** Alex has left the room
[16:11:03] <SouL> edhelas: congrats! :)
[16:11:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:11:35] <SouL> The one I want is only $2600
[16:11:56] <Ge0rG> so.ul?
[16:12:17] <moparisthebest> I was eyeing moparisthe.best but not worth it nowadays
[16:12:52] <Ge0rG> I have two domains with my lastname on dubious TLDs.
[16:13:03] <Ge0rG> People are always surprised when I tell them on the phone
[16:13:12] <jonasw> .xxx?
[16:13:23] <Ge0rG> Not even close
[16:13:48] <SouL> Gr.org
[16:13:48] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, I have the same, tell people on the phone my first name @ my last name dot org
[16:13:50] <SouL> Ge.org
[16:13:58] <moparisthebest> then they go 'at gmail?' and I go 'no'
[16:14:05] <jonasw> moparisthebest, :<
[16:14:07] <jonasw> I know that feel
[16:14:23] <jonasw> but I think it’s because many people are stupid and confuse . with @ when spelling their mail address
[16:14:45] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: and .org is pretty well-known
[16:15:01] <moparisthebest> I actually get odder looks/questions now that I switched to mostly giving like, if the company is BobWorks I'd give first.bobworks@last.org
[16:15:27] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: that's crazy talk!
[16:15:41] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[16:15:52] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[16:16:52] <moparisthebest> I like it because while a human could figure it out and strip off the part after the .
[16:17:13] <Ge0rG> first.bobworks@last! yay!
[16:17:17] <moparisthebest> a computer program totally couldn't because it's a perfectly valid email, and they don't know that's my policy like they know + is strippable from gmail
[16:17:28] <jonasw> reminds me of the "io" tld which had A records for a while
[16:17:36] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: do you think they actively strip +postfix from gmail addresses?
[16:17:47] <moparisthebest> I assume spammers do, why wouldn't they?
[16:17:53] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: dunno
[16:17:56] <moparisthebest> or sleazy companies that would sell an email address
[16:18:04] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: maybe because they are careless sleazy bastards?
[16:20:09] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[16:21:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:22:42] <moparisthebest> if only I could get a saner way to handle such aliases in xmpp
[16:22:58] <moparisthebest> but it looks like far too much work to be worth it
[16:23:05] <Ge0rG> Yeah, XMPP sucks.
[16:23:12] <jonasw> go matrix?
[16:23:17] <Ge0rG> OTOH, this feature prevents domain / user impersonation.
[16:23:42] <moparisthebest> this module is 'good enough' in that it fixes discovery https://modules.prosody.im/mod_alias.html
[16:24:04] <moparisthebest> but doesn't avoid the 'giving randoms your jid' problem
[16:25:02] <SouL> XMPP alias please!
[16:25:12] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:25:14] *** Guus has left the room
[16:25:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:25:16] <SouL> When are we starting with the XEP?
[16:25:33] <Ge0rG> I'm sure there are two or three already.
[16:25:34] <moparisthebest> it's perfectly doable with just changes on *your* server
[16:26:26] <moparisthebest> it's just super annoying, like if a@a.com sends a message to both b.alias1@b.com and b.alias2@b.com, and b responds, which jid do you send it from
[16:26:28] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[16:27:04] <moparisthebest> and it involves a lot of jid rewriting, databases and such
[16:27:08] <Ge0rG> b.alias1+alias2@b.com
[16:27:23] <moparisthebest> I guess maybe if you added client support too that would make it easier, but meh
[16:27:55] *** nyco shows as "online"
[16:27:56] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:28:15] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I would assume that you use proxy JIDs for different aliases on your side, so it would be something like a%a.com@b.alias1.b.com
[16:28:48] <moparisthebest> the advantage of support just on *your* server is you don't need a XEP because there is no interop to document :)
[16:30:14] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, in my case I'd want it to match all my email aliases, which are a defined list of specific ones, plus me(\.|+|-)[^@]*@all-the-domains
[16:30:30] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[16:30:41] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: your server could just track the alias the other user contacted first.
[16:30:51] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: and auto-route accordingly
[16:31:13] <moparisthebest> yep that's an option, probably the best one, still not perfect
[16:31:36] <Ge0rG> probably good enough.
[16:31:58] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:32:27] <jonasw> reminds me of resource locking
[16:32:30] <jonasw> sounds like a can of worms
[16:32:33] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[16:32:40] <moparisthebest> it's totally a can of worms
[16:33:04] <zinid> 🐛
[16:33:06] <moparisthebest> hence "This type of aliasing is well supported in the email world, but very hard to handle with XMPP, this module sidesteps all the hard problems by just sending the user a helpful message, requiring humans to decide what they actually want to do."
[16:33:50] *** Holger shows as "online"
[16:34:22] *** Guus has left the room
[16:35:57] <SaltyBones> oh, it's basically a standardized auto-reply
[16:36:04] <SaltyBones> or jid squatting ;)
[16:37:15] <Ge0rG> Wow.
[16:37:19] <Ge0rG> Impressive.
[16:37:26] <Ge0rG> We need more JID mobility.
[16:37:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:37:54] <Zash> Do we, really?
[16:38:21] <Ge0rG> Zash: I'd like to have an easy and fully automated way to move all my contacts from my old JID to my new JID
[16:38:21] <moparisthebest> I just have a number of emails, 2 main ones, and I like all my emails also being JIDs, isn't that the ideal situation?
[16:38:28] <Ge0rG> kind of moved, but automatic
[16:39:20] <Zash> Ge0rG: How often do you move JIDs?
[16:39:51] <Ge0rG> Zash: whenever the 6-month free period on c.im expires
[16:40:05] <jonasw> lol
[16:41:53] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:41:57] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[16:42:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:47:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:50:11] <Zash> This ties back into the question of what identity is.
[16:52:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:53:34] <SouL> Ge0rG: haha
[16:53:36] <Zash> Ge0rG: Why can't we automate moved again?
[16:54:47] <Ge0rG> Zash: because SECURITY11!!1!!
> In order to prevent other users from maliciously altering contacts the client SHOULD NOT automatically subscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives an unsubscribe and SHOULD NOT automatically unsubscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives a subscribe.
[16:55:19] <Ge0rG> Then followed by some constructed attack vector where some JIDs are auto-approved and others are not.
[16:55:53] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:56:00] <jonasw> xep#?
[16:56:12] <Ge0rG> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html#security
[16:56:13] <Zash> -xep moved
[16:56:18] <Bunneh> Zash: Moved (Standards Track, Deferred, 2010-06-16)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html
[16:56:38] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, if we add a crypto identity we can base moving on that. (Sounds crazy but I am not kidding.)
[16:57:15] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that seems solvable, trivially
[16:57:18] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: I've thought about that.
[16:57:36] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: that would make the public key your effective identity, and the JID just a helper string.
[16:57:43] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:57:57] <Zash> Which isn't really the design of XMPP
[16:58:01] <SaltyBones> Considering how much we are thinking about those things I think we should start writing things down...
[16:58:13] <jonasw> oldjid unsubscribes with <moved token='xyz' new='…'/>, newjid subscribes with <moved token='xyz' old='…'/> and only then a potential reverse-subscription is re-enacted by the target
[16:58:18] <Ge0rG> jonasw: feel free to pick up authorship of 283, bringing it up to pace and convincing clients to implement.
[16:58:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, would that work? ^
[16:58:20] <Ge0rG> clients or servers.
[16:58:45] <jonasw> would have to figure something out for one-way (stable jid to moving jid) subscriptions
[16:58:53] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no need for a token. you can prove ownership of both JIDs by just issuing the according <moved> stanzas.
[16:58:58] <jonasw> right
[16:59:02] <jonasw> that’s what happens already though
[16:59:13] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I've written down all that, before I knew of Moved, into the wiki
[16:59:20] <Ge0rG> but then it got lost
[16:59:34] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: yes, let's reinvent XMPP as something else.
[16:59:39] <jonasw> so yeah, it’s really only about some weird one-way casse
[16:59:44] <Ge0rG> maybe an "OMEMO distribution protocol".
[16:59:44] <jonasw> I don’t think we should care about that too much
[17:00:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the hard part is figuring out the right order of events to make it work automatically. That and server-side caching of subscribe/unsubscribe presence packets.
[17:00:54] <Ge0rG> Don't remember the exact rules
[17:01:00] <Ge0rG> BTW, when is PARS bound to expire?
[17:01:12] *** Alex has joined the room
[17:02:01] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:02:03] <jonasw> defer, you mean?
[17:02:08] *** rion shows as "away"
[17:02:09] <jonasw> xep#?
[17:02:32] <jonasw> !xep 379
[17:02:35] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, is this about the crypto IDs?
[17:02:45] <jonasw> Ge0rG, february 16th
[17:02:47] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: I'm not sure.
[17:02:49] *** intosi shows as "online"
[17:02:50] *** Alex has joined the room
[17:02:50] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:03:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wow, need to add some more meat to it until then.
[17:03:13] <jonasw> I need to get some ecaps2 implmenetation in some server
[17:03:23] *** Alex has left the room
[17:04:08] *** Alex has joined the room
[17:04:41] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:05:26] *** rion shows as "online"
[17:05:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:07:58] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:10:41] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:11:27] *** nyco has left the room
[17:12:52] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:13:30] *** zinid has left the room
[17:13:33] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:13:37] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:13:57] *** nyco shows as "online"
[17:17:51] *** blabla has left the room
[17:21:10] *** lovetox has joined the room
[17:23:29] *** blabla shows as "online"
[17:23:30] *** Martin has left the room
[17:23:45] *** blabla has left the room
[17:23:45] *** blabla shows as "online"
[17:28:21] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:30:02] *** Syndace has left the room
[17:32:03] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:41:24] *** Syndace has joined the room
[17:43:26] *** tux has joined the room
[17:43:38] *** Guus has left the room
[17:43:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:45:22] *** Tobias has joined the room
[17:49:50] *** zinid has left the room
[17:50:00] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:50:40] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[17:52:28] <Holger> Seems https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ has the current XEP-0363 revision (0.4.0) but not the two 0.3.x revisions.
[17:53:05] *** hannes has joined the room
[17:53:12] <zinid> Holger, this is not the only such XEP, I recall I couldn't find old versions of MAM or something
[17:53:23] <Holger> :-/
[17:58:21] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:59:21] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:04:06] *** valo has left the room
[18:04:12] *** valo has joined the room
[18:04:27] *** Guus has left the room
[18:04:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:05:58] *** rion has left the room
[18:06:51] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:08:04] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:08:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:08:07] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:08:15] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[18:08:59] *** tux has left the room
[18:14:19] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:14:21] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:17:32] *** blabla has left the room
[18:20:43] *** zinid has left the room
[18:21:27] *** blabla has left the room
[18:22:15] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:23:54] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:26:30] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:26:31] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:28:43] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:29:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:30:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:30:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:32:19] *** andy has joined the room
[18:32:23] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:33:57] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:34:07] *** andy has left the room
[18:34:22] *** andy has joined the room
[18:34:36] *** andy has left the room
[18:34:41] *** andy has joined the room
[18:35:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:35:37] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:36:13] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:36:28] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:36:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:39:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:40:18] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:40:42] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:42:08] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[18:43:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:44:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:46:52] *** @Alacer has left the room
[18:46:56] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[18:47:21] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[18:49:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:49:30] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:49:33] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:50:06] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:50:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:56:47] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:59:26] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:00:14] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:01:42] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:02:20] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:02:28] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:02:33] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:02:37] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:02:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:02:42] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:02:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:03:46] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:04:24] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:05:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:06:47] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:08:54] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:08:57] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:10:28] *** Guus has left the room
[19:10:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:12:54] *** Syndace has left the room
[19:13:02] *** Syndace has joined the room
[19:17:27] *** Guus has left the room
[19:17:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:20:24] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:23:48] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:24:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:25:09] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:25:44] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:28:22] *** Guus has left the room
[19:29:36] <jonasw> Holger, yes
[19:29:39] <jonasw> attic is a manual process
[19:29:40] <jonasw> it sucks
[19:29:45] <jonasw> editors have to remember to copy them over
[19:29:50] <jonasw> I don’t remember that always
[19:29:51] <Zash> :/
[19:29:58] <Holger> Nice.
[19:30:03] <moparisthebest> is there a reason to have it with version control?
[19:30:14] <moparisthebest> can't a xep just be looked at at any revision?
[19:30:17] <jonasw> I already automated the copying-over of the changed versions, and if we ever get this scripting server-side, it should magically worked
[19:30:25] <jonasw> moparisthebest, yes, but you’d have to know which revision is a specific version
[19:30:32] <jonasw> if we knew that, we could generate the attic auotomatically
[19:30:35] <moparisthebest> tags?
[19:30:38] <jonasw> we don’t have those
[19:30:43] <moparisthebest> (since they can be added later)
[19:30:54] <jonasw> moparisthebest, if you did those, that’d be amazing
[19:31:07] <moparisthebest> something like xep-0368-0.0.1 or something
[19:31:26] <jonasw> yeah
[19:31:30] <jonasw> but it’s tedious to do
[19:31:31] <Zash> for each revision, check the last version in the source, something something
[19:31:36] <moparisthebest> would be kind of hard to back fill, could be easy going forward
[19:31:55] <zinid> tags sound like a sane idea
[19:32:00] <Zash> should be doable with way more scripting hackery than I have the energy for now
[19:32:12] <jonasw> Zash, not sufficient; sometimes version blocks are added before the last editorial change
[19:32:46] <Zash> jonasw: would it be good enough?
[19:32:49] <moparisthebest> oh hey, what about just checking out each version and matching sha1sum to a current attic xml for backfil?
[19:32:54] <jonasw> Zash, probably
[19:33:04] <jonasw> moparisthebest, except that attic doesn’t always have XMLs
[19:33:06] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:33:15] <moparisthebest> that would get you exactly what is in attic now, then you could tweak later
[19:33:27] <jonasw> gotta go
[19:33:28] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:33:28] <moparisthebest> oh, well does it *mostly* have them?
[19:34:02] <Zash> moparisthebest: maybe, assuming they haven't been changed in any way (think character encoding or newlines) since
[19:34:20] <moparisthebest> I would assume they were copied from version control and not touched
[19:34:27] <moparisthebest> could be a wrong assumption
[19:34:32] <Zash> but the HTML is not under version control
[19:34:46] <Zash> those are build artefacts, copied after build
[19:34:47] <moparisthebest> yea I think it'd only work if there was xml there
[19:34:56] <Zash> might depend on the version of xsltproc and whatnot
[19:36:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:37:00] *** andy shows as "away" and his status message is " (Zaraz wracam z powodu braku aktywności przez 5 min.)"
[19:40:55] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[19:41:12] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:41:38] <moparisthebest> looks like we need editors to ping stpeter about pinging Joe Salowey again about adding xep-368 alpn IDs here https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids
[19:42:00] *** andy shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Status Nieobecny z powodu bezczynności programu powyżej 10 min.)"
[19:42:00] <moparisthebest> since last time when he said he'd add them, looks like 'CoAP' whatever that is has been added
[19:42:07] <moparisthebest> but still no xmpp love :'(
[19:43:13] <Zash> Why don't you do it?
[19:43:35] <moparisthebest> it's officially an editor task
[19:44:12] <Zash> join the editor team, send an email, retire to a life of luxury
[19:44:38] <moparisthebest> well editor team tried to ping joe salowey twice without luck, and stpeter had to take over :)
[19:44:51] <moparisthebest> I'll probably wait until stpeter joins back and ping him again hehe
[19:45:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:45:10] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[19:45:40] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[19:50:00] <moparisthebest> https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft that's the card looks like
[19:51:51] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[19:53:06] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:53:16] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:53:23] *** Alex has left the room
[19:55:35] *** Alex has joined the room
[19:56:31] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:04:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:08:49] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:09:40] *** andy shows as "online"
[20:10:06] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:12:12] *** SouL has left the room
[20:12:24] *** SouL shows as "online"
[20:16:52] *** SouL has left the room
[20:17:21] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:17:24] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:18:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:18:43] *** Alex shows as "online"
[20:18:53] *** Alex has left the room
[20:18:56] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:19:12] *** SouL shows as "online"
[20:19:16] *** SouL shows as "online"
[20:19:57] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:20:13] *** Alex has joined the room
[20:21:16] *** blabla shows as "online"
[20:21:36] *** blabla shows as "online"
[20:22:22] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:22:40] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:24:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:24:01] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:24:08] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[20:24:21] *** xnyhps has left the room
[20:24:25] *** xnyhps has joined the room
[20:24:48] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[20:25:45] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:25:46] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:29:17] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[20:29:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:29:31] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:31:41] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:33:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:33:37] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:39:06] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:40:51] *** zinid shows as "online"
[20:43:06] *** lovetox shows as "online" and his status message is "Halloooo"
[20:45:09] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[20:45:39] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:45:44] *** Guus has left the room
[20:45:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:48:56] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[20:49:01] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[20:50:21] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:50:47] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:51:36] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:51:41] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[20:52:06] *** Alex has left the room
[20:52:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:52:12] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:52:21] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:54:18] *** nyco has left the room
[20:54:23] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:56:13] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:56:23] *** Tobias has joined the room
[20:56:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:56:38] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:57:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:57:18] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:57:26] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:57:55] *** suzyo has joined the room
[20:58:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:58:34] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[21:05:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:05:57] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:06:17] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[21:14:27] *** andy shows as "online"
[21:14:49] *** efrit has joined the room
[21:17:50] *** goffi has left the room
[21:18:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:18:21] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[21:19:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:20:11] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[21:22:25] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[21:22:32] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:22:37] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[21:30:47] *** andy has left the room
[21:30:47] *** andy has left the room
[21:33:41] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:35:42] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:36:31] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:39:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:42:01] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[21:42:07] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[21:42:19] *** Kev has left the room
[21:47:07] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:48:09] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[21:54:08] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[21:55:00] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:57:19] *** zinid has left the room
[22:00:32] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[22:00:33] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[22:04:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:05:05] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[22:10:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:14:06] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:15:12] *** Alex has joined the room
[22:15:14] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[22:15:32] *** Alex shows as "online"
[22:33:36] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:37:10] *** blabla has left the room
[22:37:47] *** Guus has left the room
[22:37:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:42:12] *** lumi has left the room
[22:42:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:44:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:45:28] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[22:52:36] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:55:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:55:44] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[22:56:14] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[22:56:14] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[22:58:00] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[22:59:42] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:00:31] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[23:02:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:02:22] *** efrit has left the room
[23:02:42] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[23:08:00] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:08:00] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[23:10:21] *** pep. has left the room
[23:10:27] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:10:54] *** Alex has left the room
[23:11:11] *** Alex has joined the room
[23:11:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:11:23] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:12:24] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:12:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:12:49] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:12:53] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:28:12] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is "Halloooo (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:33:25] *** lovetox shows as "online" and his status message is "Halloooo"
[23:40:21] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is "Halloooo (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:40:39] *** lovetox shows as "online" and his status message is "Halloooo"
[23:43:48] *** Zash has left the room
[23:44:01] *** lovetox has left the room
[23:49:55] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[23:51:30] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:51:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:58:36] *** SouL has left the room
[23:58:48] *** SouL shows as "online"