Saturday, February 03, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:28:22] <Flow> Tobias, how/where did you learn about those two I-Ds?
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[09:00:29] <Tobias> The Twitter realms
[09:01:36] <Tobias> Will see if I get around reading them on the ­čÜć
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[09:05:16] <Flow> Tobias, kk :)
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[09:15:20] <zinid> Failed outbound s2s EXTERNAL authentication zinid.ru -> jabber.org (208.68.163.218): Authentication failed: Peer provided no SASL mechanisms; most likely it doesn't accept our certificate
[09:15:37] <zinid> does anybody know when SASL EXTERNAL will be fixed on jabber.org?
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[09:47:25] <Tobias> zinid, yeah...DNS will be fixed.
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[09:47:40] <Tobias> zinid, currently a lot people are busy doing FOSDEM things though
[09:48:02] <zinid> I don't think this is DNS problem
[09:48:09] <zinid> this is a problem in certificate verification
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[09:48:22] <Tobias> oh
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[09:48:43] <zinid> jabber.org's server doesn't accept LE certificates for example
[09:49:33] <Tobias> Flow, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00#section-2.2 sounds tricky to do in a federated world, unless the "Authentication Service" can federate with others
[09:49:57] <Tobias> zinid, i'm using LE on my server and it can talk to jdev, so it supports them but there seem to be issues
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[09:53:19] <zinid> Tobias, that's because it authenticate your server via dialback
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[09:53:34] <Tobias> could be
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[09:54:54] <zinid> but not every server is running dialback module, and more server will stop using it in the future
[09:55:09] <zinid> but not every server is running dialback module, and more servers will stop using it in the future
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[10:45:06] <SaltyBones> Tobias: so if the authentication service is trusted this is not e2e and thus not like omemo/otr, right?
[10:45:54] <Tobias> that's the question
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[10:52:54] <Flow> Tobias, not sure if it is tricky in a federated system, but if you don't have a central authentication authority and can't cryptographically bind your identity with your key, your only option is probably something like fingerprint verification and/or TOFU
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[10:53:57] <Tobias> right, in the end there are still people who want end to end verification when they meet
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[10:58:48] <Tobias> "By definition, the AS is invested with a large amount of trust. A
malicious AS can impersonate - or allow an attacker to impersonate -
any user of the system. This risk can be mitigated by publishing the
binding between identities and keys in a public log such as Key
Transparency (KT) [KeyTransparency]."
[10:59:23] <Tobias> Flow, they just bolt heavy KT on it and be done with it
[10:59:45] <Tobias> wonder how that scales, these KT logs become quite large
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[11:02:19] <SaltyBones> Tobias, have you found the corresponding mailing list discussion already?
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[11:06:23] <Tobias> there doesn't ssem to be one, currently it's just a personal draft
[11:07:22] <SaltyBones> Yeah, I can't find anything either.
[11:07:34] <Tobias> Flow, also https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00#section-3.1.6 :) "should be able to interoperate"
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[11:08:02] <Tobias> at least not a MAY :)
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[11:11:55] <SaltyBones> Okay, from what I can find they don't even state how this is supposed to work so one can check.
[11:12:10] <SaltyBones> And the reference to the protocol has no link. :p
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[11:13:42] <Tobias> Federated authentication is tricky
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[11:15:01] <SaltyBones> Is that this: https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/message-security-layer-a-modern-take-on-securing-communication-f16964b79642 ?
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[11:15:26] <SaltyBones> Tobias, but for proper e2e you need e2e verification anyway...
[11:15:58] <SaltyBones> You can get away without it if you have decent ratcheting, I suppose.
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[11:18:57] <Tobias> I did a federated authentication thing for iot. But there I hard linked the crypto to the network layer (IPv6 address)
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[11:20:20] <Tobias> That's not directly possible with free choice DNS names so we would need a different system for XMPP
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[11:28:19] <SaltyBones> "hard linked"?
[11:28:46] <SaltyBones> So if a device is compromised you throw it away because the key cannot be changed?
[11:29:01] <SaltyBones> (Seems to be one of the few cases where this might not be problem.)
[11:30:38] <Tobias> If you change the key you change the address
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[11:32:10] <SaltyBones> Tobias, I axed: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/KN9-Dy26tBGMx4YkzY98ZDkpRTg
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[11:33:06] <Tobias> I linked to proto earlier. See history
[11:34:10] <Tobias> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-barnes-mls-protocol/
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[11:34:42] <SaltyBones> Oh, cool, I'll add that!
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[11:35:08] <Tobias> Don't know how future proof that is. It's not mentioning block chain at all
[11:35:43] <SaltyBones> -_-
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[11:38:28] <SaltyBones> Tobias, https://twitter.com/paul_pearce/status/959138611617673216
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[11:46:05] <Tobias> ­čśÇ
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[20:03:44] <Ge0rG> AES CBC is literally a block chain.
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[20:23:29] <Zash> !
[20:23:38] <Zash> Is "nano" still a cool word?
[20:23:50] <Ge0rG> Zash: sorry, nope
[20:23:51] <Zash> "nanoblockchain"
[20:23:55] <Zash> "microblockchain" then?
[20:23:59] <Zash> pico?
[20:24:11] <Ge0rG> "nano" was a thing when I wen to school. Which is now almost 20 years ago
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[20:24:44] <Zash> I was in school 20 years ago too
[20:24:46] <Ge0rG> Zash: I propose "eco" or "bio" because it comes without PoW
[20:24:48] <waqas> Yeah, enough time has passed to move to pico now
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[20:25:08] <Zash> PicoBlockChain - PBC
[20:25:14] <waqas> Ge0rG: Eco has been around for too long too
[20:25:42] <waqas> I haven't head of Bio that much in tech howeverÔÇŽ XEP-xxxx: Bio Chains
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[20:26:32] <Zash> Hyperblockchains?
[20:26:35] <MattJ> nano is a cool word, I use it all the time
[20:26:43] <Zash> Something something hypercube routing
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[20:29:06] <pep.> Noob question, is there a way to never send the plain passwd to the server and only do scram, from account creation to the end. (Thinking about ibr)
[20:29:42] <Ge0rG> Hyper cube, wasn't that the movie full of deadly traps?
[20:30:00] <Ge0rG> pep.: you need to send the password during ibr
[20:30:52] <MattJ> pep., no
[20:31:00] <Zash> Wasn't there some draft/protoxep on uploading SCRAM stuff?
[20:31:05] <MattJ> oh?
[20:32:43] <Zash> Bunneh: xep scram
[20:32:43] <Bunneh> Zash: Sorry, I couldn't find a match
[20:32:55] <pep.> Zash: would be nice
[20:33:31] <pep.> Also, scram for the web when
[20:33:49] <Zash> Hah, good luck
[20:34:40] <Zash> Re the talk of device / client registration that was mentioned on the summit
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[20:35:44] <Zash> In't that something like the model of OAuth, where instead of the user signing into their account, they authorize the clients to access their account.
[20:35:58] <Zash> In that model, password login don't as much sense
[20:36:02] <Ge0rG> I want an Auth mechanism called SCUMM.
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[20:48:06] <moparisthebest> What like oauth with Facebook?
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