Tuesday, February 06, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
February
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
      1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
       
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:42] *** stefandxm has left the room
[00:01:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:01:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:04:18] *** goffi has left the room
[00:04:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:05:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:05:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:05:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:06:57] *** tux has left the room
[00:09:42] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:10:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:13:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:14:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:15:06] *** tux shows as "online"
[00:16:54] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:17:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:18:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:19:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:22:05] *** tux shows as "online"
[00:29:16] *** tux has left the room
[00:29:22] *** tux has left the room
[00:39:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:40:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:44:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:46:55] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[00:47:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:49:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:50:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:52:34] *** Alex has left the room
[00:54:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:55:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:57:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:58:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:00:19] *** @Alacer has left the room
[01:00:22] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[01:00:22] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[01:00:28] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[01:00:39] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:00:54] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:01:27] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[01:01:53] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:05:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:06:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:09:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:09:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:11:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:12:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:14:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:14:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:16:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:16:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:18:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:19:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:19:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:19:39] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:19:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:19:55] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:21:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:22:11] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:22:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:22:53] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[01:23:44] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:23:48] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:24:23] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:24:28] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:24:42] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:26:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:27:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:29:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:29:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:31:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:31:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:34:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:36:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:38:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:40:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:41:59] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:42:00] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:43:22] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[01:43:55] *** hannes has left the room
[01:43:56] *** hannes has joined the room
[01:44:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:45:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:46:02] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[01:47:18] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:47:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:48:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:48:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:48:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:49:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:49:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:50:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:51:09] *** lskdjf has left the room
[01:51:43] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:52:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:52:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:52:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:53:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:53:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:54:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:54:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:56:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:56:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:57:41] *** stefandxm has left the room
[01:58:46] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:58:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:01:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:01:49] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:02:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:02:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:03:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:03:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:06:40] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[02:13:34] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[02:14:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:14:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:14:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:14:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:16:54] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:16:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:18:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:18:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:18:43] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[02:18:44] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[02:19:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:19:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:20:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:21:01] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:36:41] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:36:41] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[02:37:10] *** jjrh has left the room
[02:37:15] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[02:39:34] *** ralphm has joined the room
[02:41:38] *** jjrh has left the room
[02:41:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[02:42:00] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[02:42:43] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:42:43] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[02:53:41] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[02:54:37] *** daniel has left the room
[02:56:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:56:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:57:08] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:57:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:11:10] *** daniel has joined the room
[03:24:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[03:27:48] *** Guus has left the room
[03:29:18] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:32:16] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[03:33:08] *** efrit has joined the room
[03:35:27] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[03:48:00] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[03:50:34] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[03:50:47] *** andy has joined the room
[03:51:05] *** andy has left the room
[03:51:07] *** andy has joined the room
[04:09:09] *** @Alacer has left the room
[04:11:35] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[04:37:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[04:37:53] *** andy has left the room
[04:37:54] *** andy has joined the room
[04:38:29] *** andy has left the room
[04:38:30] *** andy has joined the room
[04:38:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[04:42:59] *** andy has left the room
[04:43:00] *** andy has joined the room
[04:46:10] *** andy has left the room
[04:46:11] *** andy has joined the room
[04:56:16] *** andy has left the room
[05:04:13] *** andy has joined the room
[05:14:32] *** suzyo has joined the room
[05:37:01] *** suzyo has left the room
[05:49:45] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[05:52:59] *** tux has left the room
[05:52:59] *** tux has joined the room
[06:08:06] *** zinid shows as "online"
[06:19:07] *** andy has left the room
[06:19:50] *** andy has joined the room
[06:20:51] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[06:27:04] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[06:33:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:35:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:37:34] *** Guus has left the room
[06:39:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:41:55] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[06:49:51] *** andy has left the room
[06:52:50] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[06:53:58] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[06:54:30] *** SouL has left the room
[06:55:05] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[06:55:21] *** Seve/SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Back from Brussels!"
[06:55:28] *** SouL has left the room
[06:55:29] *** SouL has joined the room
[06:58:03] *** andy has joined the room
[07:04:02] *** andy has left the room
[07:07:47] *** zinid has left the room
[07:14:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:17:49] *** stefandxm has left the room
[07:20:33] *** Seve/SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Back from Brussels!"
[07:21:24] *** SouL has left the room
[07:21:41] *** @Alacer has left the room
[07:22:12] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[07:23:05] *** Seve/SouL shows as "away" and his status message is "Back from Brussels!"
[07:24:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:25:41] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:25:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:28:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de has joined the room
[07:29:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:36:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:37:30] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[07:38:42] *** andy has joined the room
[07:47:39] *** rion has joined the room
[07:51:54] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:52:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:52:26] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[07:54:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:55:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:57:24] *** Tobias has joined the room
[07:57:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:58:10] *** daniel shows as "online"
[07:58:12] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:01:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:04:48] *** nyco has left the room
[08:04:59] *** nyco shows as "online"
[08:05:22] *** andy has left the room
[08:05:23] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[08:06:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:08:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[08:09:12] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:09:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:15:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:16:54] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:16:54] *** Link Mauve shows as "online" and his status message is "Back from FOSDEM! https://twitter.com/JabberFR/status/959108071929901057"
[08:18:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[08:19:50] *** @Alacer has left the room
[08:19:54] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[08:20:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:21:17] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:21:25] *** valo has joined the room
[08:22:36] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[08:24:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:25:08] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[08:26:08] *** hannes has joined the room
[08:29:21] *** daniel has left the room
[08:29:28] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:36:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:36:55] *** andy has joined the room
[08:39:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:42:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:45:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:47:03] *** andy has left the room
[08:48:06] *** intosi has joined the room
[08:48:18] <jonasw> some people at this university want to establish some team chats, with the following requirements:
- instant messaging
- availability/presence status
- video chat
- desktop and mobile end devices

they already have XMPP in their mind. I’m afraid of the "video chats" requirement. Any suggestions what I tell them at the 15th?
[08:48:42] *** jubalh has joined the room
[08:49:00] <jonasw> I doubt there will be any funding to be made available, given that Matrix et al. could possibly be adopted without funding.
[08:49:20] <mathieui> video chat on all devices, I suppose?
[08:49:27] <jonasw> I guess.
[08:49:28] <Tobias> Jitsi?
[08:49:37] <jonasw> sorry, jitsi is completely horrible as day-to-day IM client
[08:49:44] <jonasw> (at least last time I checked, which was around 1.5 years ago)
[08:50:28] <Tobias> edhelas, does movim already do voice/video via webRTC?
[08:51:10] <Guus> Openfire comes with a plugin that installs the Jitsi Meet suite locally
[08:51:19] <jonasw> Guus, is there a client which can make use of that?
[08:51:31] <Guus> Jitsi Meet is a web client that does webrtc
[08:51:34] <jonasw> oh, that’s a web thing
[08:51:36] <jonasw> okay, that’s interesting
[08:51:44] <jonasw> what’s the deployment experience with that? does it work well?
[08:52:28] <Ge0rG> I wanted to set it up once, but it conflicted with my prosody.
[08:52:51] <Guus> Jitsi meet itself is pretty stable ( https://meet.jit.si ) - The Openfire installation of it has some quircks, but it's managable (notably, you _need_ a proper TLS certificate, and I'm lagging behind, version wise, a couple of months)
[08:52:55] <jonasw> who’s developing that?
[08:52:58] <jonasw> (jitsi-meet that is)
[08:53:01] <Ge0rG> And the documentation wasn't telling me how it's supposed to work, only what commands I should run to "make it work"
[08:53:14] <Guus> The jitsi team, now acquired by Atlassian.
[08:53:28] <Guus> With Openfire, you can set it up in two minutes (literally).
[08:53:58] <jonasw> that looks seriously neat
[08:54:31] <Guus> I'd actually love to get your feedback on the Openfire integration. It's primarily one guy and me that's building it, and still has rough edges.
[08:54:47] <jonasw> I haven’t looked at openfire, sorry, only at the meet.jit.si thing
[08:54:52] <jonasw> but that looks very polished
[08:55:05] <jonasw> being acquired by atlassian, I’d be worried they might drop XMPP?
[08:55:33] <mathieui> the only downside of jitsi meet is that while it uses a MUC, the chat is quite limited through the web interface
[08:55:38] <mathieui> (imo)
[08:56:40] <Guus> Well, I've had a discussion with them about that. I believe that the are underutilizing XMPP, and could have a better integration, from a XMPP point of view. Their project lead pointed out that he was aware, but that their goal is not to build a strictly XMPP-optimized solution. Instead, they want to build a highly performant web-based video confernence solution.
[08:56:46] <Guus> XMPP is just a tool for them, not an end goal
[08:56:47] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[08:57:30] <Ge0rG> the chat features demand of a web-video-conf is rather low
[08:58:35] <jonasw> Guus, so they’re going to ditch XMPP as soon as it is more convenient.
[08:58:53] <jonasw> the only way to make that less convenient is by having great interoperating clients.
[08:58:58] <Guus> jonasw, no - their setup is heavily integrated with XMPP
[08:59:24] <Ge0rG> We really need modern and usable mobile and desktop clients
[08:59:37] <Ge0rG> A dozen of half-clients don't count.
[08:59:52] <jonasw> Ge0rG, pay me
[09:00:11] <Guus> but I'm not sure if they'd manage interop with other clients than their own, for the audio/video bit (most of it is Jingle based though, so it might actually work - and they're very happy to work with the community and add features/changes, as long as it's not conflicting with their interests of course.
[09:00:29] <jonasw> Guus, okay
[09:00:46] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:00:57] <jonasw> I heard rumors of a Jitsi-Meet-Integration with Spark, is that a thing yet?
[09:01:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I offered you a job already, just not XMPP related ;) Maybe it does pay well enough to work half-time and to have the rest of the time for XMPP :P
[09:01:25] <Guus> but yeah, get yourself a host, disable the firewall for starters, install openfire, install a proper certificate, install the ofmeet and offocus plugins, done.
[09:01:38] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m already just going to work 75% in my job; right now I’ve got masterthesis and other things on my plate though.
[09:01:55] <Guus> jonasw: almost, but it's not what you expect. We simply open the web view in a browser in Spark :)
[09:02:26] <jonasw> Guus, that’s already a good start, if it provides a good flow from "we’re in a MUC, but we need a video/voicechat to discuss things now"
[09:02:40] <Ge0rG> jonasw: personally, I can't afford to pay somebody to do the work I'd gladly do myself if I had time.
[09:03:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, heh
[09:03:15] <jonasw> Ge0rG, point is, I think most a are painfully aware of the issues.
[09:03:29] *** goffi has joined the room
[09:03:40] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it was even discussed at the summit, but I didn't get the conclusion, if there was one.
[09:04:03] <jonasw> I don’t recall either
[09:04:05] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:04:14] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:04:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: maybe we should reduce fragmentation and focus our efforts. Stop writing JabberCat and help out making Gajim Great Again.
[09:04:46] <jonasw> stop writing yaxim and implement video chat in conversations.
[09:05:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yaxim came first :P
[09:05:09] <Guus> jonasw: I certainly would love your feedback on the Openfire / jitsi meet integration bit
[09:05:25] <Guus> give it a try if you've got like half an hour to play.
[09:05:36] <jonasw> Guus, I’m still looking for an openfire-docker-thing
[09:05:43] *** daniel has left the room
[09:06:39] <Guus> jonasw, surevine might have one, but there's no official one from us
[09:06:52] <Guus> we do have .deb, .rpm and .exe installers - or you can build from source.
[09:07:06] <jonasw> I’m asking for docker specifically because I can do that in travis-ci without hassle
[09:07:47] <jonasw> (and having it would make it easier to play around locally indeed)
[09:07:53] <Guus> I don't have one, sorry :)
[09:08:11] <jonasw> regarding testing jitsi meet+openfire, if it requires a working TLS cert, I’m not sure how that’ll work in half an hour ;-)
[09:08:19] <Guus> letsencrypt/
[09:08:22] <Guus> ?
[09:08:59] <jonasw> but that requires me to do that on an internet-reachable server
[09:09:24] <Guus> (also, the cert requirement will be dropped again after we are able to fix an internal issue)
[09:09:35] <Link Mauve> Guus, I do want to make existing desktop clients interop with Jitsi Meet.
[09:10:08] <Link Mauve> For now just in one to one, so not with Jitsi Meet, but MUC video is part of a longer term plan.
[09:10:09] <Guus> jonasw: well, you can do a self-signed one, but then your browser will need to recognize it
[09:10:24] <jonasw> does it need to do that beforehands, or can I simply accept it when it asks for it?
[09:10:34] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: in which client do you want to make that happen?
[09:10:42] <Guus> jonasw, also, if you disable all encryption in Openfire, it'll work - not something you want to do outside of a local setup, obviously.
[09:10:48] <jonasw> ah okay
[09:10:49] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, probably Gajim first, since it already has good Gstreamer integration.
[09:10:51] <jonasw> I’ll just do that I guess :>
[09:11:03] <Link Mauve> Also to get up to speed with Gstreamer personally.
[09:11:06] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I was frightened for a moment you could say "poezio"
[09:11:09] <Link Mauve> :D
[09:11:12] <Guus> Link Mauve: that'd be great. As I said, we'll integrate the Meet web client in Spark, which is a start. Proper integration would be better!
[09:11:16] <jonasw> Link Mauve, come over and do it in Jabbercat. We’ve got Qt and the chromium engine. WebRTC for free!
[09:11:27] <jonasw> Ge0rG, libaa!
[09:11:37] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:11:39] <Link Mauve> jonasw, the idea is exactly to add interoperability between desktop and web, not just web. :p
[09:11:49] <jonasw> Link Mauve, that’s still desktop?
[09:12:10] <Link Mauve> jonasw, as in, using jitsi-videobridge to make Gstreamer clients talk with WebRTC clients seamlessly.
[09:12:27] <jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?
[09:12:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: libcaca please.
[09:13:02] <jonasw> Ge0rG, does libcaca have a sweet demo like bb?
[09:13:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: dunno, but you can mplayer the matrix trailer with it
[09:14:18] <Ge0rG> and there is an awesome visualized called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
[09:14:25] <Ge0rG> and there is an awesome visualizer called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
[09:17:40] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:18:08] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:18:11] *** intosi shows as "online"
[09:18:14] *** marc has joined the room
[09:19:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:21:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:22:13] <zinid> Ge0rG: what's wrong with mobile clients?
[09:22:21] *** andy has joined the room
[09:22:29] <zinid> I agree desktop clients suck
[09:23:03] *** Martin has joined the room
[09:23:07] <Ge0rG> zinid: Conversations is okay, minus voip/video. The others all suck.
[09:23:10] <Ge0rG> zinid: especially on iOS
[09:23:30] <zinid> Ge0rG: ah, iOS, right
[09:23:56] <Ge0rG> zinid: the situation on other platforms is even worse, but fortunately nobody expects that any more.
[09:24:05] <zinid> Ge0rG: you can always suppress your ego and join conversations team 😁
[09:25:12] <Ge0rG> zinid: I'd use all my time to keep up with the changes in the code base and couldn't contribute anyway.
[09:25:48] <zinid> I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
[09:26:12] <Ge0rG> zinid: I'm not sure what you are talking about.
[09:26:39] <zinid> Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
[09:26:45] <Link Mauve> “10:12:28 jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?”, Gstreamer doesn’t support everything yet AFAIK, although I’m not fully sure what’s still missing.
[09:26:55] <zinid> Especially if it's superior
[09:27:07] <Link Mauve> But jitsi-videobridge integration will be needed anyway for MUC video, so why not start with that.
[09:27:34] <Ge0rG> > Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
tell that to daniel :P
[09:27:59] *** andy has left the room
[09:28:25] <zinid> Ge0rG: so you're just fulfilling your ego and now cry why we don't have mobile clients?
[09:29:29] <Ge0rG> zinid: I have contributed code to conversations, I have tested and reported a number of bugs on the iOS clients. I really don't know what you want from me now.
[09:29:46] <zinid> Ge0rG: VoIP stuff 😀
[09:29:54] <Ge0rG> zinid: not gonna happen
[09:30:05] <zinid> Ge0rG: why? Ego again?
[09:30:05] <Link Mauve> jonasw, Ge0rG, nowadays we have 256 colours available (some terminals even support 24-bit, but ncurses doesn’t), we don’t need terrible things like libcaca anymore. :p
[09:30:09] <Guus> have you guys tried the IOS client from Tigase? They showed it to me at FOSDEM briefly. Looked nice enough
[09:30:13] <Link Mauve> See poezio’s gorgeous avatar display. ^^
[09:30:17] *** goffi has left the room
[09:30:26] <zinid> Link Mauve: which doesn't work
[09:30:30] <Guus> (I don't have an iPhone, so I've not really played with it though)
[09:30:33] <Link Mauve> Works for me.
[09:30:39] <Ge0rG> Guus: IIRC I enrolled for the beta test a year ago, but then was disappointed that there is no bug tracker to report into
[09:31:10] <daniel> > I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
This 'client a is not written in my favorite programming language / ui toolkit thus I really need to start my own from scratch' is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of good clients.
[09:31:20] <Ge0rG> zinid: as opposed to you, I'm not driven by my ego :P I just know the insanity that awaits me, should I start writing VoIP/video code
[09:31:41] <Ge0rG> daniel: but it's the reasons we have *a lot* of clients!
[09:31:51] <zinid> Ge0rG: ah, so you're just a pussy 😁
[09:31:59] <jonasw> daniel, the reason for that though is that we only have free-time developers.
[09:32:07] <Ge0rG> daniel: and out of all people, *you* shouldn't complain about client diversity :P
[09:32:50] <Ge0rG> zinid: and you are a dick. So what's the problem, let's do it quick!
[09:33:26] <jonasw> lol
[09:33:45] <zinid> Rammstein?
[09:33:45] <jonasw> TIL the ejabberd-MUC has an avatar
[09:34:34] <Ge0rG> zinid: the fact that you recognized that just added a sympathy point to your score.
[09:35:51] <Guus> damnit, zinid stole my sympathy point!
[09:36:04] <zinid> daniel: but in Android you have the same language and toolkit lol 😁
[09:38:28] *** Guus has left the room
[09:38:45] *** Guus shows as "online"
[09:40:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: we only have free-time CADT developers... https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
[09:43:06] <zinid> Ge0rG: what about funding? How much can we collect per month?
[09:43:37] <Ge0rG> zinid: who is "we" and what do we want to collect for?
[09:44:07] <zinid> Ge0rG: we - the xmpp community
[09:44:27] <zinid> Collect for the salary
[09:44:42] <Ge0rG> zinid: the XSF is collecting some amount of money. Last time I checked, there was strict opposition against collecting money to fund development of a single client.
[09:45:23] <Ge0rG> zinid: it is easy to f*ck this up: assumed we have funding for one or two developers, how are we going to distribute that?
[09:45:49] <zinid> Ge0rG: why? We can leave donors to control the development depending on their money contribution, matrix does this
[09:45:59] <Ge0rG> should we give the money to daniel because he's writing the best Android client, or maybe to me because it's good to have alternatives? To JC for improving the web client? To lovetox for Gajim? To somebody else?
[09:46:28] <Ge0rG> zinid: the XSF is "vendor neutral", so it can't really solve this problem
[09:46:45] <zinid> Ge0rG: well, we should collect applications then donors will decide
[09:47:08] <zinid> We can create JSF as you suggested
[09:48:00] <Ge0rG> zinid: but then again the JSF will be vendor-neutral as well and have the exact same problem!
[09:48:19] <zinid> Ge0rG: what problem?
[09:48:32] <Ge0rG> zinid: with Matrix, there was THE client, and then they switched from THE matrix client to riot.im, by whatever mechanism they used to decide that riot is better now
[09:49:03] <Ge0rG> zinid: the XSF is lacking volunteers even for the regular tasks we have. There is nobody left to run another Org
[09:49:08] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:49:39] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[09:50:11] <zinid> Ge0rG: actually they have the neat patreon policy: you can control the development if you contribute some decent amount
[09:50:32] <Ge0rG> zinid: that's great. So now they are owned by this one big crypto money scam org?
[09:50:51] <zinid> Ge0rG: then we can just open patreon project and will control the development via bugtracker
[09:51:09] <zinid> So no org is required
[09:51:30] <mathieui> depends if you want accountability or not
[09:51:33] <Ge0rG> zinid: yes. Please create a patreon project, invite developers of different XMPP clients and let them define tasks and prices, then go out and collect funds
[09:51:53] <zinid> Ge0rG: what's wrong if the project will be aquired?
[09:52:22] <jonasw> patreon might not be the right thing for this
[09:52:30] <jonasw> but the general concept probably applies
[09:52:40] *** Syndace has left the room
[09:52:43] *** Syndace has joined the room
[09:52:54] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:52:59] <zinid> Ge0rG: I'm actually asking here on purpose, if there are people wanting to contribute
[09:53:33] <Ge0rG> zinid: to contribute money? I'm not sure you'll find anyone in here.
[09:53:42] <jonasw> I’m not sure what tax implications it’d have. I’m also pretty sure that I’d have to run that by my employer, which feels to be too much hassle.
[09:53:56] <zinid> Ge0rG: here - in the XSF
[09:54:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: giving or taking?
[09:54:06] <zinid> Ge0rG: nobody, really?
[09:54:07] <Guus> I actually think that it's not a bad idea if the XSF helps individual people to sign up for Patreon or similar things
[09:54:41] <Ge0rG> Guus: is it something the developers can't do on their own?
[09:54:52] <zinid> What, even 10$/month is a terrible burden for an XSF member?
[09:54:57] <jonasw> Ge0rG, taking
[09:55:00] <jonasw> giving is trivial
[09:55:07] <Guus> actually, https://converse.js lists both Patreon and LiberaPay on its website. Everyone can start with contributing to that.
[09:55:36] <jonasw> zinid, if we shuffle funds around inside the XSF, I’m not sure that’ll help in any way
[09:55:41] <Guus> Ge0rG: devs _can_ do that on theirselves, but everything is hard if you don't know how to do it. Simple guides can go a long way.
[09:55:50] <Ge0rG> jonasw: regarding taking: it's a secondary source of income that you need to income-tax. You need to make a tax declaration at the end of the year and pay something between 0 and 40% of it back
[09:56:10] <jonasw> okay, I’ll have to make tax declarations starting next year anyways.
[09:56:17] <Ge0rG> Guus: I've never interacted with patreon. Is there some kind of tag system where we can group all xmpp developers?
[09:56:17] <jonasw> so that is not overhead which counts
[09:56:21] <jonasw> but employer things would be annoying.
[09:56:41] <jonasw> (not that annoying probably)
[09:56:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: IIUC you only need to tell your employer, not ask them.
[09:56:59] <jonasw> yeah, probably
[09:57:05] *** jonasw has left the room
[09:57:11] *** Alex has joined the room
[09:57:20] *** Alex shows as "online"
[09:57:21] <jonasw> damn, I didn’t consider I’ll have to file taxes now anyways. I might as well give it a shot the.n
[09:57:29] <SaltyBones> I would be curious which features users even want.
[09:57:38] <Guus> boom, I've just pledged to converse.js. Now you guys.
[09:58:07] <SaltyBones> Is it "just work better" or "vidcalling" or "moar crypto"?
[09:58:20] <zinid> Guus: there are two problems with existing project: they cannot attract donors and the quality is mostly shit, sadly
[09:58:25] <Guus> Ge0rG: I don't know.
[09:58:38] <jonasw> SaltyBones, all of the three
[09:58:43] <jonasw> with "moar crypto" breaking the other two
[09:59:13] <Guus> zinid, you were telling people to pay developers to allow them to improve quality. Converse.JS lets you do that.
[09:59:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, we could make a page on xmpp.org where ways to support XMPP clients are listed
[09:59:54] <SaltyBones> jonasw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Af1qeouMc
[10:00:04] <SaltyBones> ;)
[10:00:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd love to have that, but I suppose we need some open and egalitarian process to enroll developers, so that we don't violate our "vendor neutrality"
[10:00:14] *** goffi has joined the room
[10:00:21] <jonasw> Ge0rG, add a field to the client list, boom done.
[10:00:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd like to have another field in the client list: a short description
[10:00:53] <Guus> what other xmpp projects have Patreon-like pages?
[10:00:54] <Ge0rG> and a logo
[10:01:07] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do that
[10:01:11] <jonasw> logo is a good idea actually
[10:01:16] <Guus> I'd be happy to spend a few bucks/month on several
[10:01:26] <jonasw> we can base64 that and have the python stuff put it in an image directory automatically
[10:01:31] <zinid> Guus: still, the first problem remains. That's why I asked if XSF members can contribute, that will be a great start
[10:01:41] <jonasw> Guus, conversations maybe?
[10:01:51] <jonasw> Guus, you’re tempting me to set up liberapay just now ;)
[10:01:53] <Guus> jonasw: I buy conversations, the client.
[10:02:00] <jonasw> ah
[10:02:02] <jonasw> good :)
[10:02:06] <Guus> jonasw, seriously, go for it.
[10:02:15] <jonasw> (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP client developers is going to be a good thing)
[10:02:24] <jonasw> (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP developers is going to be a good thing)
[10:02:25] <SaltyBones> hm...can you gift something to people on the app store?
[10:02:39] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: no :(
[10:02:42] <SaltyBones> There are still a few people whom I would like to be able to reach with conversations...
[10:02:47] <SaltyBones> bummer
[10:02:49] <daniel> i'd try to come up with actual business models instead of relying on donations
[10:03:00] <Guus> jonasw: the idea is that non-members also make use of it. :)
[10:03:02] <Ge0rG> daniel: don't you have one already?
[10:03:09] <SaltyBones> daniel, is there a way to have vouchers or something?
[10:03:10] <Guus> daniel, obviously. But every bit helps, right?
[10:03:24] <daniel> Ge0rG, yes. that's why i'm recommending that approach over donations
[10:03:30] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:03:35] <jonasw> SaltyBones, sadly, the only way may be to wait for the next offer. I was lucky that C was free around the holidays.
[10:03:37] *Ge0rG has a business model where another app he develops pays for the time to work on yaxim.
[10:03:41] <Link Mauve> Guus, Gajim has three options here: https://gajim.org/dev.php
[10:04:00] <SaltyBones> jonasw, what I'm saying is, I bought it and I would buy it for other people to support daniel and get them to use it...
[10:04:06] *** suzyo has joined the room
[10:04:09] <jonasw> SaltyBones, I see
[10:04:22] <jonasw> (my issue was that family doesn’t have any payment info associated with their google account)
[10:04:24] <daniel> Guus, sure. that wasn't a comment on you pledging towards converse.js. that was just a general statement on the 'how can we fund xmpp clients' discussion
[10:04:34] <zinid> What's wrong with donations? Even if we fail to init a project we can always give the money to some existing project depending on elections
[10:04:47] <Ge0rG> when you buy Conversations on Google Play, Google will keep 30%, and Merkel will keep some ~30% as well. It's better to meet Daniel and spend him a beer ;)
[10:05:06] <jonasw> except beer ;-)
[10:05:15] <Ge0rG> a beverage.
[10:06:18] <SaltyBones> Maybe I'll try getting a play store gift card and see if that works...
[10:06:25] <daniel> Ge0rG, i love beverages. but beverages don't pay for rent
[10:06:32] <daniel> at least i never tried that…
[10:06:51] <Guus> if anyone is interested, maybe create a wiki page that links to all donation pages of XMPP projects?
[10:06:55] <zinid> Since it's supposed to have a lot of donors, the elections supposed to be fair enough
[10:06:59] <Ge0rG> daniel: depends on your landlord. If you can make them drunk every time they want your money... :P
[10:07:07] <Guus> Daniel: depends on the land...whathesaid
[10:07:23] *** tux shows as "away" and his status message is "I am away from my desk. Leave a message."
[10:07:52] <Ge0rG> Guus: that's a sensible approach as well. Maybe we should ask the Board whether adding links to donation pages would be appropriate for the client/server software lists?
[10:08:29] <Guus> Ge0rG: wouldn't be the worst of ideas
[10:08:35] <zinid> Guus: the point is to find a single important task and donate, that is iOS or desktop client, and if we just list all the projects this will not accumulate a lot of money within a particular project
[10:09:49] <Ge0rG> zinid: so who is going to choose which client gets featured, then?
[10:09:52] <daniel> zinid, i feel like at least some of the client developers wouldn't even want to work full time on their projects
[10:10:01] <Guus> zinid, you're right - but it does help, and could be a first step that we could do _today_. We can always do different things too.
[10:10:16] <zinid> Ge0rG: polling
[10:10:21] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, could you create a PR with logos?
[10:10:37] <jonasw> if I’m gonna work full-time on a client, it needs to be a safe employment; I couldn’t quit my job only to find that two months later, the client doesn’t pay enough anymore.
[10:10:56] <zinid> daniel: I think there will be some who will 😁
[10:10:59] *** suzyo has joined the room
[10:11:04] <jonasw> Ge0rG, SaltyBones, if you do a PR with the logos as base64 inside the json or as files in an appropriate structure below content and refereneces to the file names in the JSON, I’ll take care of the rest of the templating/python magic
[10:11:36] <zinid> jonasw: yeah, that's the problem
[10:11:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: SVG or PNG? What resolution(s)?
[10:12:07] <Ge0rG> zinid: never trust a poll you didn't manipulate yourself!
[10:12:14] <daniel> creating a business is always risky. i think i spend like at least two years working full time on Conversations before i made any significant amount of money from it
[10:12:52] <goffi> daniel: if there is not secret, how do you make most of your money ? With support ?
[10:12:54] <SaltyBones> daniel, convince some of your clients that they really want vidcalling ;)
[10:13:02] <zinid> Ge0rG: wut?
[10:13:10] <SaltyBones> or maybe jonasw tell your university to hire daniel to add it! ;)
[10:13:21] <Ge0rG> zinid: see, there is money involved. People will try to cheat your poll so they end up receiving the money.
[10:13:23] <zinid> Ge0rG: the elections will be forged? 😀
[10:13:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, whatever you find. SVG is fine, PNG would be safer though.
[10:13:56] <Ge0rG> zinid: you know how it works from your state elections :P
[10:13:57] <zinid> Ge0rG: how is that when only donors can poll?
[10:14:26] <jonasw> SaltyBones, I doubt they’ll want to pay a lot for that communication thing. otherwise I’ll be recommending daniel as consultant for sure.
[10:14:43] <SaltyBones> jonasw, try to convince them!
[10:14:46] <Ge0rG> zinid: So what you propose is that instead of just funding what they want, people are supposed to make a collective, put together significant money and then have a majority decide what that money will be spent on?
[10:14:48] <jonasw> SaltyBones, hah...
[10:14:52] <SaltyBones> It's usually not their money..
[10:14:55] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[10:15:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you just need to find some source of money and redirect accordingly.
[10:15:23] <zinid> Ge0rG: majority? Everyone can poll
[10:15:34] <Ge0rG> zinid: you are contradicting yourself.
[10:15:39] <zinid> Ge0rG: amongst donors
[10:15:51] <zinid> Ge0rG: you just don't get it
[10:15:59] <Ge0rG> zinid: indeed, I'm not getting it.
[10:16:26] <daniel> SaltyBones, i think at this point any money is better invested in a decent desktop client
[10:16:35] <zinid> Ge0rG: every donor can poll on the project selection, nobody else
[10:16:48] <daniel> because i'm actually doing ok and Conversations is good enough for now
[10:17:17] <zinid> daniel: still iOS left
[10:17:35] <zinid> And probably even more important imho
[10:17:48] <Guus> Daniel, kudos for that. Not everyone is gracious enough to say "i've got enough, give it to others".
[10:17:49] <Ge0rG> daniel: you could start Conversations/Web now. Or Conversations/W32!
[10:18:08] <daniel> zinid, probably. in any case *not Conversations*. is my point
[10:18:47] <zinid> daniel: and not ejabberd, so what? 😀
[10:18:56] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:19:18] <Ge0rG> Guus: I have also arrived at a point where it's not reasonable for me to accept funding, unless it's either at my employer's business consulting rate ($$$) or if it's on the order sufficient to buy a yacht.
[10:19:39] <daniel> Ge0rG: that be really stupid. If anything I'd contribute to dino or converse or what ever
[10:20:18] <Ge0rG> daniel: but the network effect!!1
[10:21:37] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:21:51] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:22:20] *** Martin has left the room
[10:22:37] <Link Mauve> daniel, I contribute to these two, with time though, not money.
[10:23:10] <Link Mauve> If only we could pool time as easily as we do money.
[10:23:24] <Ge0rG> I contribute too! By yelling at the developers in their ticket systems!
[10:23:31] <Guus> Link Mauve: I suspect that many projects prefer time over money. I'd love to have devs for Spark, for instance - that badly needs a lot of work.
[10:24:04] <Ge0rG> Guus: the challenge is to find somebody who can actually reduce your workload, not increase it.
[10:24:47] <Guus> Ge0rG: indeed. Which is why I like GSoC, but that's a future investment (and somewhat risky, if you ignore the 'its-also-fun-to-do' bit)
[10:25:52] <jonasw> my third-party perspective on GSoC is that it rarely turns out really useful for the involved projects; is that false?
[10:25:56] <Guus> You know what - I think I'm going to blog a call-for-help for Spark devs. Most of our users are corporate. There's bound to be a few that have Devs
[10:26:24] <Guus> jonasw: I have one year experience. Two of the two students that I was working with last year were at the summit and fosdem.
[10:26:34] <jonasw> but was the code useful?
[10:26:54] <Guus> yes, but that's not the point.
[10:27:00] <jonasw> but that was my question :)
[10:27:08] <jonasw> (in response to what Ge0rG said about "not increasing your workload")
[10:27:18] <Guus> The code that a student produces during GSoC can be created by a mentor in the same time it takes to mentor the student.
[10:27:29] <Guus> the point is that you attract long term contributors through GSoC
[10:28:02] *Guus waves at vanitasvitae
[10:28:41] <Guus> jonasw: GSoC is certainly a risky investment, in that respect: you have to first invest a lot of your time, in order to perhaps get a good deal in the long term.
[10:29:15] <zinid> Guus: we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge
[10:29:51] <zinid> I'm very skeptical for GSoC
[10:30:00] <Guus> zinid, that's exactly why I mentioned that both students are still very active with us. One of them is even in this MUC, both are still submitting PRs to our projects.
[10:30:21] <zinid> Guus: lucky you 😁
[10:30:25] <Guus> but yes, it is somewhat of a gamble.
[10:30:34] <Guus> (but also great fun anyways)
[10:31:31] <Guus> But keeping people engaged is also something that we need to learn, as the XSF, or as individual projects.
[10:31:47] <Guus> you can't simply expect people to stick around.
[10:32:54] <Guus> It's why I like that the XSF invited these students to come to the summit and fosdem - I think that that's a good way to further bond, in a sense
[10:34:13] <Guus> simply showing appreciation (not just to students, but to everyone in the community), goes a long way towards keeping people engaged, active, and happy.
[10:34:28] *** lumi has joined the room
[10:34:33] <Guus> (and it need not cost anything)
[10:36:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:36:30] *Guus has the magic ability to bore everyone to sleep.
[10:36:38] <Ge0rG> *zZZzzZZZzzzZ*
[10:36:43] <Link Mauve> Guus, I fully agree with that. :)
[10:36:56] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[10:36:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[10:37:19] *** Martin has joined the room
[10:37:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:37:33] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:37:55] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:39:54] <jonasw> Guus, agreed (with the engegaedness thing, not the sleep thing)
[10:40:32] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:41:20] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:43:11] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:45:51] *** hannes has joined the room
[10:51:21] *** zinid has left the room
[10:51:24] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:53:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:54:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[10:57:57] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[10:58:35] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:58:37] *** rion has left the room
[10:59:08] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:59:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:01:52] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:02:00] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[11:02:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[11:04:23] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[11:06:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:09:19] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:09:23] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[11:09:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[11:09:56] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:10:25] *** zinid has joined the room
[11:10:54] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Kann nicht chatten. Muss arbeiten."
[11:12:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:16:37] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:20:11] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[11:20:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:22:30] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[11:22:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[11:23:22] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:23:26] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[11:23:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[11:25:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:30:28] *** tux shows as "online"
[11:32:02] *** rion has joined the room
[11:32:55] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:35:37] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:37:58] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[11:38:03] *** nyco has left the room
[11:38:09] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[11:38:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[11:40:12] *** nyco shows as "online"
[11:41:59] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:42:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:44:07] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[11:45:30] *** intosi shows as "online"
[11:46:20] *** suzyo has joined the room
[11:47:03] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:47:54] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[11:48:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:50:30] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:51:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[11:55:46] *** marc has left the room
[11:57:04] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:57:18] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[11:57:58] *** suzyo has joined the room
[11:58:43] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[11:58:56] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:01:14] *** hannes has joined the room
[12:02:27] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:03:28] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:03:31] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:03:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:04:13] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[12:05:53] *** blabla has left the room
[12:06:08] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:06:10] *** intosi shows as "online"
[12:06:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:06:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:07:04] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:07:15] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[12:07:22] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:07:28] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[12:08:21] *** blabla has joined the room
[12:08:45] *** andy has joined the room
[12:12:27] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[12:13:34] *** suzyo has joined the room
[12:16:11] <Tobias> SaltyBones, https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
[12:16:17] <Holger> zinid:

> we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge

Didn't Badlop get involved via GSoC, originally?

[12:16:28] <Tobias> I think so
[12:16:41] <zinid> Holger, he was involved, but not via GSoC
[12:16:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[12:16:54] <zinid> he did GSoC later, being full-time contributor
[12:17:25] <zinid> so I'm not sure this is counted as "involved via GSoC"
[12:17:40] <Holger> zinid: Ah, I see.
[12:18:50] *** andy has left the room
[12:19:46] *** marc has joined the room
[12:20:28] <SaltyBones> Tobias, yep, thx, saw it!
[12:20:43] <jonasw> is that list sufficient to stay in the loop for that WG?
[12:21:43] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:22:16] *** remko has joined the room
[12:22:16] *** remko shows as "online"
[12:22:25] <Tobias> probably
[12:22:51] <Tobias> who knows if they are building more 'escape velocity' somewhere ;)
[12:22:57] *** nyco has left the room
[12:23:04] <jonasw> escape velocity?
[12:23:44] <Tobias> jonasw, https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cfrg/current/msg09467.html :)
[12:24:32] <jonasw> I see
[12:24:44] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:25:29] *** nyco shows as "online"
[12:25:36] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:25:38] <jonasw> hah, funny typo in the abstract of the draft (<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00>):
> This document describes the architecture and requirements for the Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol. […] It is eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery.
[12:25:45] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:25:56] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:25:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:26:18] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:26:32] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:26:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:27:06] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:27:18] *** andy has joined the room
[12:27:31] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:27:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:29:41] <moparisthebest> OR WAS IT A TYPO
[12:29:48] *moparisthebest dons tinfoil hat
[12:33:03] *** andy has left the room
[12:33:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:35:18] *** daniel has left the room
[12:36:11] *** winfried shows as "online"
[12:36:12] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:36:27] *** winfried shows as "online"
[12:37:43] *** blabla has left the room
[12:39:17] *** Alex has left the room
[12:39:26] *** Alex has joined the room
[12:39:54] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:40:51] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[12:40:56] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:41:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[12:45:23] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:45:27] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[12:45:41] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:45:46] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[12:45:52] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[12:46:20] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[12:47:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[12:47:28] *** andy has joined the room
[12:47:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:47:52] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:49:30] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[12:50:57] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:51:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:52:49] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:53:05] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:53:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[12:54:30] *** suzyo has left the room
[12:54:36] *** suzyo has joined the room
[12:58:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:59:06] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:59:25] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:59:28] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:59:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:00:18] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:02:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:02:46] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:03:29] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[13:04:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:04:37] *** marc has left the room
[13:05:47] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[13:07:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:07:52] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[13:08:09] *** andy has left the room
[13:08:16] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:09:36] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:09:42] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:09:47] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:09:51] *** remko shows as "away"
[13:10:17] *** Martin has left the room
[13:10:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:10:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:11:36] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:11:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:11:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:12:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:12:38] *** jubalh has joined the room
[13:13:07] *** jubalh has left the room
[13:13:18] *** marc has joined the room
[13:13:27] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[13:14:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:14:49] *** jubalh has joined the room
[13:14:59] *** jubalh has left the room
[13:15:28] *** boothj5 has left the room
[13:16:24] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:17:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:19:05] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:19:08] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[13:19:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:19:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:21:18] *** Alex has left the room
[13:22:04] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:23:12] *** lskdjf has left the room
[13:24:35] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:25:40] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[13:26:01] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[13:26:07] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:28:31] *** blabla has left the room
[13:28:45] *** intosi shows as "online"
[13:30:40] *** marc has left the room
[13:30:43] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:31:08] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:31:32] *** intosi shows as "online"
[13:32:04] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:32:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:32:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:33:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:33:07] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:33:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:33:44] *** jubalh has joined the room
[13:34:03] *** jubalh has left the room
[13:35:07] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:35:58] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[13:36:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:36:17] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:38:48] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:39:14] *** daniel has left the room
[13:39:16] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:39:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:39:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:40:16] *** jonasw has left the room
[13:40:25] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:40:56] *** Holger has left the room
[13:40:57] *** Holger shows as "online"
[13:41:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:41:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:41:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[13:45:32] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:47:31] *** suzyo has joined the room
[13:48:48] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:51:45] *** jubalh has joined the room
[13:52:13] *** andy has joined the room
[13:52:44] *** Alex has joined the room
[13:55:20] *** lumi has left the room
[13:55:47] *** efrit has left the room
[13:55:55] *** efrit has joined the room
[13:56:04] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[13:56:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:57:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:02:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:02:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:02:34] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:02:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:02:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:03:25] *** andy has left the room
[14:04:55] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:05:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:05:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:05:17] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:07:53] *** andy has joined the room
[14:10:26] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:10:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:10:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:12:02] *** blabla has left the room
[14:12:04] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:12:31] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:13:00] *** jubalh has left the room
[14:13:14] *** remko shows as "online"
[14:14:03] *** blabla has joined the room
[14:14:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:17:22] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[14:19:06] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:19:45] *** Martin has joined the room
[14:19:49] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:19:52] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:20:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[14:20:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:21:16] *** andy has left the room
[14:22:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:22:01] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:22:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:22:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:29:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:31:19] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:31:56] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:32:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:32:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:32:41] *** lumi has joined the room
[14:33:13] *** blabla shows as "online"
[14:33:18] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[14:33:19] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:33:30] *** efrit has left the room
[14:33:55] *** winfried has joined the room
[14:34:55] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:36:03] *** ralphm has left the room
[14:37:08] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:38:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:38:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:39:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:41:26] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:41:50] *** andy has joined the room
[14:43:44] *** SamWhited has left the room
[14:44:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:44:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:45:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:45:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:46:24] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:46:26] *** jubalh has left the room
[14:47:48] *** andy has left the room
[14:47:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:51:44] *** ralphm has left the room
[14:51:48] *** andy has joined the room
[14:52:28] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:52:40] *** jubalh has left the room
[14:54:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:55:51] *** marc has joined the room
[14:56:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:56:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[14:56:22] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:56:53] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:57:48] *** andy has left the room
[14:58:48] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[14:59:18] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:59:53] *** blabla shows as "online"
[15:00:22] *** blabla shows as "online"
[15:01:50] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:02:06] *** SamWhited has left the room
[15:03:08] *** blabla shows as "online"
[15:05:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:05:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:06:15] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:07:44] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:07:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:09:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:10:00] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[15:13:29] *** andy has joined the room
[15:13:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:14:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:15:29] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:16:48] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:17:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:18:32] *** hannes has joined the room
[15:18:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:21:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:21:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:21:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:22:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:23:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:23:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:24:51] *** andy has left the room
[15:27:54] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:27:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:27:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:28:39] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[15:33:13] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:33:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:33:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:34:19] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:35:30] *** andy has joined the room
[15:37:07] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[15:37:09] *** andy has left the room
[15:37:10] *** andy has joined the room
[15:41:38] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:41:42] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[15:41:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:42:45] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:42:48] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[15:42:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:43:09] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:43:12] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[15:43:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:43:47] *** zinid shows as "online"
[15:43:54] *** jonasw has left the room
[15:44:13] *** zinid has left the room
[15:45:37] *** blabla has left the room
[15:48:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:49:18] *** andy has left the room
[15:49:30] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:49:35] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[15:49:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:50:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:51:42] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:51:49] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[15:52:30] *** hannes has joined the room
[15:53:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[15:53:06] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[15:53:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:53:52] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[15:56:09] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:56:15] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:56:44] *** marc has left the room
[15:57:25] *** andy has joined the room
[15:58:49] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:59:12] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:59:15] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:59:16] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:00:13] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:01:17] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[16:03:25] *** andy has left the room
[16:04:16] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[16:04:16] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:04:44] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:05:06] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:05:22] *** andy has joined the room
[16:05:35] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:05:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:06:05] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:06:10] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:06:14] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:06:32] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:10:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:11:10] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:11:42] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:12:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:12:30] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:12:35] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:12:40] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[16:12:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[16:12:42] *** marc has joined the room
[16:12:57] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:13:58] *** Tobias has left the room
[16:14:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:14:49] <Zash> Good morning. You have been talkative here.
[16:15:12] <jonasw> hi Zash
[16:15:58] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:16:09] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[16:16:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[16:16:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:17:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:17:35] *** Martin shows as "online"
[16:17:49] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:18:19] *** Martin has left the room
[16:19:20] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:20:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:21:56] *** @Alacer has left the room
[16:21:57] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[16:22:12] *** @Alacer has left the room
[16:22:14] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[16:22:27] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:22:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:22:38] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[16:22:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[16:23:59] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:25:11] *** Martin has joined the room
[16:25:17] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:25:21] *** Martin shows as "online"
[16:25:49] *** marc has left the room
[16:30:14] *** remko shows as "away"
[16:30:41] *** daniel has left the room
[16:30:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:31:53] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:32:13] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[16:32:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[16:33:58] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:34:11] *** suzyo has joined the room
[16:39:14] *** suzyo has left the room
[16:39:26] *** suzyo has joined the room
[16:41:03] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:45:00] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:45:00] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[16:45:08] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:10] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:10] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:12] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:14] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:14] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:30] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:32] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:32] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:32] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:45:52] *** suzyo has joined the room
[16:46:07] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[16:46:26] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[16:47:32] *** intosi shows as "online"
[16:48:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:50:18] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:50:21] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:52:42] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:52:45] *** Lance has joined the room
[16:52:45] *** Lance shows as "online"
[16:53:09] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:57:24] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:00:01] *** lumi has left the room
[17:00:08] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:00:42] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:02:28] *** waqas has joined the room
[17:03:34] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[17:03:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:04:13] *** Martin shows as "online"
[17:04:27] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:04:57] *** Martin has left the room
[17:05:35] *** suzyo has joined the room
[17:06:24] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:06:53] *** lovetox has joined the room
[17:07:12] *** matlag has joined the room
[17:08:47] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:08:47] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[17:11:43] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:14:11] *** goffi has left the room
[17:14:49] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:14:49] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:14:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:14:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:15:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:17:13] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:17:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:17:40] *** marc has joined the room
[17:17:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:17:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:18:15] *** Martin has joined the room
[17:18:17] *** waqas has left the room
[17:18:20] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:18:24] *** Martin shows as "online"
[17:20:25] *** Holger has left the room
[17:20:49] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:22:08] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:22:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:22:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[17:23:37] *** tux shows as "online"
[17:24:33] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:25:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:25:27] *** daniel has left the room
[17:27:52] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:29:40] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:30:00] *** marc has left the room
[17:35:00] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:35:03] *** tux shows as "online"
[17:35:03] *** tux has left the room
[17:35:04] *** Zash has left the room
[17:35:29] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:37:47] *** waqas has joined the room
[17:37:47] *** lumi has joined the room
[17:37:48] *** waqas has left the room
[17:38:09] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:38:10] *** jonasw has left the room
[17:40:57] *** Martin has left the room
[17:42:37] *** zinid shows as "online"
[17:43:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:43:26] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[17:44:17] *** winfried shows as "online"
[17:45:39] *** nyco has left the room
[17:45:49] *** remko shows as "online"
[17:49:53] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:52:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:52:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:52:28] <moparisthebest> which one is the active one, the omara one, or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 ? or are they even different?
[17:53:07] *** Holger shows as "online"
[17:54:22] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:55:45] *** matlag has left the room
[17:55:46] *** matlag has joined the room
[17:56:21] *** andy has left the room
[17:58:14] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[17:58:44] <Flow> moparisthebest, it appears one tries to draw a high level architecture picture (omara), while the other specifies the protocol in detail
[17:59:08] *** rion has left the room
[17:59:10] <moparisthebest> is that the normal process for RFCs ?
[17:59:56] <Flow> moparisthebest, don't believe that there is any restriction for authors to split or not split their documents
[18:05:02] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:05:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:05:24] <Zash> moparisthebest: Not uncommon
[18:07:21] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:07:24] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:07:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:07:28] *** remko shows as "away"
[18:10:40] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[18:11:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:12:34] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[18:18:07] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:18:31] *** remko shows as "online"
[18:22:44] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:22:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:23:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:23:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:26:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:26:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:26:49] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:27:19] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:27:50] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:27:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:28:44] *** andy has joined the room
[18:32:00] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:33:55] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:35:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:36:57] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:38:32] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:42:12] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:43:57] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:44:15] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:47:57] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:48:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:48:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:50:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:50:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:52:39] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:53:55] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:55:00] *** remko shows as "away"
[18:56:27] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:57:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:57:12] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:57:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:58:31] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:58:34] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:58:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[18:58:36] *** stefandxm has left the room
[18:59:45] *** nyco shows as "online"
[19:01:50] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:06:53] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[19:07:01] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[19:07:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[19:07:38] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:07:40] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:07:45] *** lovetox has left the room
[19:08:12] *** lovetox has joined the room
[19:08:29] *** pep. shows as "online"
[19:09:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:09:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:11:20] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[19:11:36] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[19:11:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[19:12:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:15:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:17:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:20:53] *** Zash shows as "online"
[19:21:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:21:43] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:21:44] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:23:46] *** nyco has left the room
[19:23:53] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:23:59] *** nyco shows as "online"
[19:25:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:25:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:27:48] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:27:55] *** remko shows as "online"
[19:27:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:28:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:28:28] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:29:08] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[19:29:38] *** goffi has joined the room
[19:31:06] *** suzyo has joined the room
[19:35:36] *** rion has joined the room
[19:35:50] *** lovetox has left the room
[19:35:59] *** rion has left the room
[19:36:10] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:36:13] *** rion has joined the room
[19:38:02] *** suzyo has left the room
[19:38:10] *** suzyo has joined the room
[19:40:54] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:41:45] *** lovetox has joined the room
[19:42:10] *** suzyo has joined the room
[19:42:19] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[19:42:20] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:42:56] *** suzyo has joined the room
[19:45:05] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:45:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:45:21] *** andy has left the room
[19:45:56] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[19:46:10] *** suzyo has joined the room
[19:47:03] *** rion has left the room
[19:47:04] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[19:47:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[19:47:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[19:47:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[19:50:42] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:50:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:51:52] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:54:48] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:55:14] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[19:59:44] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:59:56] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:01:56] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[20:03:56] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[20:04:42] *** boothj5 has left the room
[20:05:57] *** andy has joined the room
[20:06:14] *** stefandxm has left the room
[20:06:50] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[20:06:51] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:10:36] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:10:37] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[20:12:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:12:47] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:12:47] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[20:13:01] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[20:14:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:14:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:16:03] *** andy has left the room
[20:16:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:17:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:19:01] *** remko shows as "away"
[20:21:16] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:21:18] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:26:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:29:33] *** andy has joined the room
[20:30:46] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:30:54] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:31:34] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:33:54] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:35:10] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[20:35:48] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:36:48] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:38:29] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:40:08] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:40:42] *** andy has left the room
[20:40:54] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:41:37] *** Alex has left the room
[20:42:36] *** Alex has joined the room
[20:42:49] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[20:43:12] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:44:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:49:39] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:51:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[20:51:56] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:52:02] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:52:29] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:52:30] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:53:12] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:53:18] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:54:26] *** Lance shows as "away"
[20:56:11] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:56:53] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:58:29] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:58:29] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:59:16] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[20:59:16] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[20:59:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:59:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:00:48] *** andy has joined the room
[21:04:45] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:05:12] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:05:14] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[21:05:42] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[21:05:52] *** lumi shows as "online"
[21:06:45] *** andy has left the room
[21:10:07] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[21:14:11] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:14:28] *** remko shows as "online"
[21:15:38] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:15:38] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[21:16:04] *** efrit has joined the room
[21:21:30] *** valo has joined the room
[21:22:42] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:25:48] *** daniel has left the room
[21:29:57] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:32:34] *** valo has left the room
[21:37:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:37:02] *** valo has joined the room
[21:37:26] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:41:53] *** Lance has left the room
[21:42:32] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:42:36] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[21:53:48] *** Lance has joined the room
[21:53:49] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:56:02] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[21:56:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:56:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:58:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[22:00:11] *** andy has joined the room
[22:01:27] *** valo has left the room
[22:03:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:04:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:04:15] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:04:39] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:04:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:09:27] *** remko has joined the room
[22:09:27] *** remko shows as "online"
[22:09:41] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:09:43] *** tux has joined the room
[22:10:17] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:10:40] *** andy has left the room
[22:12:29] *** valo has joined the room
[22:13:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:13:58] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:21:53] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:24:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:25:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:28:20] *** Alex has left the room
[22:30:43] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:33:19] *** Alex has joined the room
[22:36:06] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:36:54] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:37:39] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[22:38:27] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:40:21] *** daniel has left the room
[22:40:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:47:27] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:50:02] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:50:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:50:30] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:51:23] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[22:53:06] *** zinid has left the room
[22:54:35] *** lumi shows as "online"
[22:56:07] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:56:09] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:58:29] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:58:46] *** Lance has left the room
[22:59:01] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:03:01] *** pep. has left the room
[23:03:36] *** remko has joined the room
[23:03:36] *** remko shows as "online"
[23:04:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:05:01] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:05:10] *** daniel has left the room
[23:05:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:05:16] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:05:57] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[23:06:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:09:55] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:10:27] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:13:05] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:13:12] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:14:07] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[23:15:14] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[23:15:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "San Diego"
[23:15:24] *** nyco has left the room
[23:15:31] *** nyco shows as "online"
[23:16:56] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[23:19:18] *** efrit has left the room
[23:19:20] *** Alex has left the room
[23:22:06] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:22:07] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:22:51] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:24:17] *** Alex has joined the room
[23:24:29] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[23:27:51] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[23:32:05] *** efrit has joined the room
[23:36:05] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:36:08] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:39:13] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[23:40:11] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[23:41:35] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[23:45:21] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[23:47:01] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "San Diego"
[23:52:06] *** Alex has left the room
[23:53:12] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:54:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[23:55:09] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:55:12] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:55:50] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:57:47] *** remko has joined the room
[23:57:47] *** remko shows as "online"
[23:58:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:59:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:59:59] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"