XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-02-11


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  2. Seve/SouL Do whe have any "general purpose" mailing list?
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  5. Seve/SouL I guess JUser will do
  6. Seve/SouL I hope many people is subscribed there
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  180. jonasw Seve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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  204. Ge0rG https://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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  238. pep. Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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  241. zinid pep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
  242. zinid not even Allo
  243. zinid there will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
  244. Ge0rG zinid: third dozen?
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  246. zinid yeah :)
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  254. Ge0rG https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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  257. jonasw so people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
  258. jonasw holy fuck
  259. daniel Ge0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
  260. pep. jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
  261. Zash ugh
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  264. Alex Slack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
  265. zinid well, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
  266. daniel > By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices tell that to my WhatsApp
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  268. Alex I would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
  269. jonasw Alex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
  270. zinid > I would say it can, we just need some more good clients I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
  271. zinid Not now, it's too late
  272. Alex its never too late
  273. zinid sometimes it is ;)
  274. zinid that's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
  275. zinid and forget about world domination
  276. pep. Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
  277. Alex federation is our big advantage
  278. pep. to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
  279. pep. fking*
  280. zinid Alex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
  281. Zash flinging smartphones through windows!
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  283. pep. Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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  288. zinid so, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
  289. zinid any volunteers? :)
  290. jonasw I don’t believe in using IM for payment
  291. jonasw so holy fuck no
  292. zinid jonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
  293. pep. What I was going to write. At least for me
  294. daniel Well JabberCoin could generate some positive press
  295. daniel Sometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
  296. zinid daniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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  298. zinid daniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
  299. Zash Ugh
  300. zinid bitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
  301. daniel zinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
  302. jonasw blockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
  303. Zash no no no noooooooo!
  304. zinid guys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
  305. zinid you can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
  306. jonasw hands some valerian to Zash
  307. edhelas blockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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  309. edhelas *retarded
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  311. pep. Power consumption issues?
  312. edhelas it's good for the economy
  313. zinid pep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
  314. pep. OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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  316. zinid pep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
  317. zinid the paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
  318. pep. Thanks
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  335. mathieui https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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  338. zinid by the way: > and make it easier to install your own server how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
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  341. jonasw that can be solved with RPi images.
  342. jonasw but the DNS is tricky
  343. jonasw but the DNS is still tricky
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  345. zinid also, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
  346. Zash Another one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
  347. zinid jonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
  348. jonasw why not both?
  349. zinid jonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
  350. Zash afford to?
  351. zinid *is not able to
  352. zinid damn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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  354. jonasw zinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
  355. zinid sorry
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  361. Holger Oops.
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  416. zinid > There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
  417. zinid always such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
  418. mathieui I twitched a little while reading that
  419. Zash Hm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
  420. zinid ah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely: There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
  421. Zash Who could have guessed?
  422. zinid the only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
  423. Zash We need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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  426. zinid > All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
  427. zinid another perl
  428. Zash Did they now?
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  434. Seve/SouL Could someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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  533. Seve/SouL So, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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  537. zinid not sure what solution they can find with their requirements
  538. marc "Stickers are available"
  539. marc LOL
  540. zinid "FOSS server implementation"
  541. zinid "not tightly controlled by a single company"
  542. zinid so this is definitely not Matrix
  543. Zash Writing requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
  544. SaltyBones marc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
  545. marc SaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
  546. zinid > Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
  547. daniel Juser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
  548. jubalh has left
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  550. daniel Also mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
  551. zinid yeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
  552. daniel And that pastebin is even worse
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  557. zinid from what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
  558. Zash allowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
  559. Zash Bunneh: ping kde.org
  560. Bunneh Zash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
  561. Zash Still appears to be
  562. zinid Bunneh, version kde.org
  563. Bunneh zinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
  564. zinid so what's the problem?
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  566. Zash IRC users
  567. Zash IRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
  568. SaltyBones maybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
  569. daniel Good bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
  570. zinid True, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
  571. Zash IRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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  573. daniel Yes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
  574. SaltyBones is Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
  575. daniel That's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
  576. SaltyBones daniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
  577. Zash I think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
  578. Zash Probably other things that I can't think of right now
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  580. zinid I touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
  581. daniel Zash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
  582. SaltyBones Hm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
  583. SaltyBones Offer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
  584. Zash SaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
  585. zinid Zash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
  586. Zash -xkcd 1782
  587. zinid I think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
  588. zinid https://community.kde.org/Matrix
  589. zinid LOL
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  591. zinid > One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
  592. zinid marketing bullshit
  593. SaltyBones zinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
  594. Zash zinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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  596. zinid SaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
  597. Zash 1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
  598. daniel zinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
  599. zinid daniel, I know :)
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  601. daniel But you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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  603. zinid I thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
  604. daniel So only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
  605. daniel I'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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  607. zinid daniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
  608. daniel Well people do stupid things. That's just how it is
  609. zinid yeah ;)
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  611. daniel I mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
  612. daniel You could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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  614. SaltyBones daniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
  615. SaltyBones And the aforementioned marketing...
  616. daniel SaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
  617. daniel Calling is basically a client feature
  618. daniel Take a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
  619. zinid no surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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  621. daniel I mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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  625. daniel </rant>
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  627. SaltyBones daniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
  628. marc SaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
  629. zinid and complex
  630. marc zinid, depends
  631. marc I have a PoC
  632. daniel marc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
  633. marc daniel, what media thing?
  634. marc ah, the shared media thing?
  635. zinid marc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
  636. daniel Show images for that conversation
  637. daniel Yes
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  639. zinid marc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
  640. daniel zinid: the UX is a pain
  641. daniel Or the ui
  642. zinid daniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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  644. marc zinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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  646. marc daniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
  647. daniel The thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
  648. zinid daniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
  649. zinid and if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
  650. daniel Given that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
  651. daniel *stuff
  652. zinid LOL
  653. zinid we should finish the blockchain first!
  654. Zash A blockchain transport!!
  655. daniel I mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
  656. daniel And you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
  657. daniel So win/win
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  664. SaltyBones daniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
  665. SaltyBones So it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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  674. marc For the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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  678. marc I would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...
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