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Seve/SouL
Do whe have any "general purpose" mailing list?
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Seve/SouL
I guess JUser will do
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Seve/SouL
I hope many people is subscribed there
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jonasw
Seve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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Ge0rG
https://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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pep.
Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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zinid
pep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
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zinid
not even Allo
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zinid
there will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
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Ge0rG
zinid: third dozen?
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zinid
yeah :)
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Ge0rG
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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jonasw
so people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
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jonasw
holy fuck
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daniel
Ge0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
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pep.
jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
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Zash
ugh
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Alex
Slack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
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zinid
well, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
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daniel
> By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices tell that to my WhatsApp
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Alex
I would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
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jonasw
Alex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
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zinid
> I would say it can, we just need some more good clients I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
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zinid
Not now, it's too late
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Alex
its never too late
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zinid
sometimes it is ;)
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zinid
that's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
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zinid
and forget about world domination
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pep.
Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
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Alex
federation is our big advantage
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pep.
to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
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pep.
fking*
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zinid
Alex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
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Zash
flinging smartphones through windows!
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pep.
Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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zinid
so, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
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zinid
any volunteers? :)
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jonasw
I don’t believe in using IM for payment
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jonasw
so holy fuck no
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zinid
jonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
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pep.
What I was going to write. At least for me
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daniel
Well JabberCoin could generate some positive press
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daniel
Sometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
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zinid
daniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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zinid
daniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
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Zash
Ugh
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zinid
bitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
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daniel
zinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
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jonasw
blockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
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Zash
no no no noooooooo!
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zinid
guys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
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zinid
you can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
- jonasw hands some valerian to Zash
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edhelas
blockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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edhelas
*retarded
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pep.
Power consumption issues?
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edhelas
it's good for the economy
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zinid
pep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
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pep.
OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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zinid
pep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
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zinid
the paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
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pep.
Thanks
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mathieui
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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zinid
by the way: > and make it easier to install your own server how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
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jonasw
that can be solved with RPi images.
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jonasw
but the DNS is tricky✎ -
jonasw
but the DNS is still tricky ✏
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zinid
also, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
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Zash
Another one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
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zinid
jonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
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jonasw
why not both?
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zinid
jonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
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Zash
afford to?
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zinid
*is not able to
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zinid
damn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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jonasw
zinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
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zinid
sorry
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Holger
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Holger
Oops.
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zinid
> There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
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zinid
always such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
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mathieui
I twitched a little while reading that
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Zash
Hm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
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zinid
ah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely: There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
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Zash
Who could have guessed?
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zinid
the only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
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Zash
We need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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zinid
> All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
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zinid
another perl
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Zash
Did they now?
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Seve/SouL
Could someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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Seve/SouL
So, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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zinid
not sure what solution they can find with their requirements
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marc
"Stickers are available"
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marc
LOL
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zinid
"FOSS server implementation"
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zinid
"not tightly controlled by a single company"
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zinid
so this is definitely not Matrix
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Zash
Writing requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
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SaltyBones
marc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
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marc
SaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
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zinid
> Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
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daniel
Juser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
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daniel
Also mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
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zinid
yeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
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daniel
And that pastebin is even worse
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zinid
from what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
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Zash
allowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
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Zash
Bunneh: ping kde.org
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Bunneh
Zash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
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Zash
Still appears to be
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zinid
Bunneh, version kde.org
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Bunneh
zinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
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zinid
so what's the problem?
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Zash
IRC users
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Zash
IRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
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SaltyBones
maybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
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daniel
Good bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
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zinid
True, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
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Zash
IRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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daniel
Yes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
- SaltyBones is Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
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daniel
That's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
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SaltyBones
daniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
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Zash
I think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
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Zash
Probably other things that I can't think of right now
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zinid
I touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
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daniel
Zash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
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SaltyBones
Hm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
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SaltyBones
Offer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
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Zash
SaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
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zinid
Zash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
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Zash
-xkcd 1782
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zinid
I think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
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zinid
https://community.kde.org/Matrix
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zinid
LOL
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zinid
> One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
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zinid
marketing bullshit
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SaltyBones
zinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
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Zash
zinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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zinid
SaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
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Zash
1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
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daniel
zinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
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zinid
daniel, I know :)
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daniel
But you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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zinid
I thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
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daniel
So only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
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daniel
I'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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zinid
daniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
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daniel
Well people do stupid things. That's just how it is
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zinid
yeah ;)
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daniel
I mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
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daniel
You could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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SaltyBones
daniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
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SaltyBones
And the aforementioned marketing...
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daniel
SaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
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daniel
Calling is basically a client feature
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daniel
Take a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
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zinid
no surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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daniel
I mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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daniel
</rant>
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SaltyBones
daniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
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marc
SaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
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zinid
and complex
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marc
zinid, depends
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marc
I have a PoC
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daniel
marc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
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marc
daniel, what media thing?
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marc
ah, the shared media thing?
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zinid
marc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
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daniel
Show images for that conversation
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daniel
Yes
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zinid
marc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
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daniel
zinid: the UX is a pain
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daniel
Or the ui
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zinid
daniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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marc
zinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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marc
daniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
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daniel
The thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
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zinid
daniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
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zinid
and if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
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daniel
Given that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
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daniel
*stuff
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zinid
LOL
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zinid
we should finish the blockchain first!
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Zash
A blockchain transport!!
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daniel
I mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
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daniel
And you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
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daniel
So win/win
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SaltyBones
daniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
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SaltyBones
So it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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marc
For the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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marc
I would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...