Sunday, February 11, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:03:17] <Seve/SouL> Do whe have any "general purpose" mailing list?
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[00:09:20] <Seve/SouL> I guess JUser will do
[00:10:19] <Seve/SouL> I hope many people is subscribed there
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[10:17:33] <jonasw> Seve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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[10:53:57] <Ge0rG> https://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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[11:57:49] <pep.> Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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[12:01:20] <zinid> pep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
[12:01:24] <zinid> not even Allo
[12:02:00] <zinid> there will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
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[12:04:47] <Ge0rG> zinid: third dozen?
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[12:06:18] <zinid> yeah :)
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[12:19:09] <Ge0rG> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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[12:21:52] <jonasw> so people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
[12:21:53] <jonasw> holy fuck
[12:22:01] <daniel> Ge0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
[12:22:21] <pep.> jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
[12:23:07] <Zash> ugh
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[12:24:57] <Alex> Slack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
[12:25:23] <zinid> well, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
[12:25:31] <daniel> > By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices
tell that to my WhatsApp
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[12:26:20] <Alex> I would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
[12:26:39] <jonasw> Alex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
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[12:27:02] <zinid> > I would say it can, we just need some more good clients
I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
[12:27:15] <zinid> Not now, it's too late
[12:28:30] <Alex> its never too late
[12:28:52] <zinid> sometimes it is ;)
[12:29:25] <zinid> that's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
[12:29:31] <zinid> and forget about world domination
[12:29:43] <pep.> Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
[12:31:09] <Alex> federation is our big advantage
[12:31:39] <pep.> to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
[12:31:44] <pep.> fking*
[12:31:45] <zinid> Alex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
[12:31:57] <Zash> flinging smartphones through windows!
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[12:33:51] <pep.> Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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[12:43:09] <zinid> so, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
[12:43:15] <zinid> any volunteers? :)
[12:43:32] <jonasw> I don’t believe in using IM for payment
[12:43:34] <jonasw> so holy fuck no
[12:44:55] <zinid> jonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
[12:49:44] <pep.> What I was going to write. At least for me
[12:50:27] <daniel> Well JabberCoin could generate some positive press
[12:51:23] <daniel> Sometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
[12:51:27] <zinid> daniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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[12:51:36] <zinid> daniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
[12:51:48] <Zash> Ugh
[12:51:53] <zinid> bitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
[12:53:13] <daniel> zinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
[12:53:37] <jonasw> blockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
[12:53:44] <Zash> no no no noooooooo!
[12:54:03] <zinid> guys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
[12:54:18] <zinid> you can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
[12:54:47] *jonasw hands some valerian to Zash
[12:55:01] <edhelas> blockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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[12:55:12] <edhelas> *retarded
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[12:55:24] <pep.> Power consumption issues?
[12:55:36] <edhelas> it's good for the economy
[12:57:22] <zinid> pep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
[12:58:19] <pep.> OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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[13:01:28] <zinid> pep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
[13:01:50] <zinid> the paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
[13:02:02] <pep.> Thanks
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[13:58:40] <mathieui> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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[14:10:42] <zinid> by the way:
> and make it easier to install your own server
how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
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[14:12:07] <jonasw> that can be solved with RPi images.
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[14:12:16] <jonasw> but the DNS is tricky
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[14:12:20] <jonasw> but the DNS is still tricky
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[14:13:24] <zinid> also, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
[14:14:15] <Zash> Another one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
[14:14:41] <zinid> jonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
[14:14:48] <jonasw> why not both?
[14:15:20] <zinid> jonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
[14:16:06] <Zash> afford to?
[14:16:17] <zinid> *is not able to
[14:17:28] <zinid> damn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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[14:17:56] <jonasw> zinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
[14:20:00] <zinid> sorry
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[14:33:40] <Holger> Oops.
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[16:37:20] <zinid> > There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
[16:37:38] <zinid> always such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
[16:37:42] <mathieui> I twitched a little while reading that
[16:38:11] <Zash> Hm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
[16:38:26] <zinid> ah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely:
There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
[16:38:39] <Zash> Who could have guessed?
[16:39:11] <zinid> the only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
[16:40:31] <Zash> We need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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[16:47:29] <zinid> > All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
[16:47:34] <zinid> another perl
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[16:53:02] <Zash> Did they now?
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[17:09:28] <Seve/SouL> Could someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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[20:51:57] <Seve/SouL> So, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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[21:03:37] <zinid> not sure what solution they can find with their requirements
[21:03:49] <marc> "Stickers are available"
[21:03:50] <marc> LOL
[21:03:56] <zinid> "FOSS server implementation"
[21:04:37] <zinid> "not tightly controlled by a single company"
[21:04:43] <zinid> so this is definitely not Matrix
[21:04:47] <Zash> Writing requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
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[21:05:37] <SaltyBones> marc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
[21:06:17] <marc> SaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
[21:06:18] <zinid> > Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
[21:06:34] <daniel> Juser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
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[21:07:50] <daniel> Also mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
[21:08:44] <zinid> yeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
[21:09:02] <daniel> And that pastebin is even worse
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[21:10:55] <zinid> from what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
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[21:10:58] <Zash> allowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
[21:11:17] <Zash> Bunneh: ping kde.org
[21:11:19] <Bunneh> Zash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
[21:11:30] <Zash> Still appears to be
[21:11:38] <zinid> Bunneh, version kde.org
[21:11:39] <Bunneh> zinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
[21:11:43] <zinid> so what's the problem?
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[21:12:00] <Zash> IRC users
[21:12:23] <Zash> IRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
[21:13:13] <SaltyBones> maybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
[21:13:54] <daniel> Good bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
[21:15:07] <zinid> True, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
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[21:15:21] <Zash> IRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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[21:17:13] <daniel> Yes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
[21:17:19] *SaltyBones is Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
[21:17:44] <daniel> That's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
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[21:19:14] <SaltyBones> daniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
[21:20:01] <Zash> I think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
[21:20:18] <Zash> Probably other things that I can't think of right now
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[21:20:44] <zinid> I touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
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[21:21:14] <daniel> Zash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
[21:21:53] <SaltyBones> Hm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
[21:22:04] <SaltyBones> Offer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
[21:22:33] <Zash> SaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
[21:23:06] <zinid> Zash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
[21:23:17] <Zash> -xkcd 1782
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[21:24:21] <zinid> I think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
[21:26:11] <zinid> https://community.kde.org/Matrix
[21:26:12] <zinid> LOL
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[21:26:27] <zinid> > One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
[21:26:33] <zinid> marketing bullshit
[21:27:18] <SaltyBones> zinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
[21:27:43] <Zash> zinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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[21:28:38] <zinid> SaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
[21:28:48] <Zash> 1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
[21:29:27] <daniel> zinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
[21:29:42] <zinid> daniel, I know :)
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[21:30:19] <daniel> But you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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[21:31:01] <zinid> I thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
[21:31:34] <daniel> So only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
[21:32:19] <daniel> I'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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[21:33:20] <zinid> daniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
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[21:34:00] <daniel> Well people do stupid things. That's just how it is
[21:34:16] <zinid> yeah ;)
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[21:38:11] <daniel> I mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
[21:38:36] <daniel> You could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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[21:38:41] <SaltyBones> daniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
[21:39:02] <SaltyBones> And the aforementioned marketing...
[21:39:15] <daniel> SaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
[21:39:32] <daniel> Calling is basically a client feature
[21:40:10] <daniel> Take a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
[21:40:17] <zinid> no surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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[21:43:07] <daniel> I mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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[21:45:00] <daniel> </rant>
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[21:46:01] <SaltyBones> daniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
[21:46:16] <marc> SaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
[21:46:23] <zinid> and complex
[21:46:30] <marc> zinid, depends
[21:46:39] <marc> I have a PoC
[21:47:14] <daniel> marc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
[21:47:30] <marc> daniel, what media thing?
[21:47:54] <marc> ah, the shared media thing?
[21:47:56] <zinid> marc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
[21:47:57] <daniel> Show images for that conversation
[21:47:59] <daniel> Yes
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[21:48:28] <zinid> marc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
[21:48:43] <daniel> zinid: the UX is a pain
[21:48:54] <daniel> Or the ui
[21:49:03] <zinid> daniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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[21:49:27] <marc> zinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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[21:50:26] <marc> daniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
[21:50:51] <daniel> The thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
[21:51:54] <zinid> daniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
[21:52:46] <zinid> and if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
[21:54:09] <daniel> Given that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
[21:54:17] <daniel> *stuff
[21:54:22] <zinid> LOL
[21:54:32] <zinid> we should finish the blockchain first!
[21:55:14] <Zash> A blockchain transport!!
[21:59:21] <daniel> I mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
[21:59:22] <daniel> And you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
[21:59:22] <daniel> So win/win
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[22:07:08] <SaltyBones> daniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
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[22:07:43] <SaltyBones> So it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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[22:18:24] <marc> For the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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[22:18:38] <marc> I would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...
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