Friday, February 16, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[00:15:56] <SamWhited> sort of, it's polling based by default, IIRC so even with only two servers in a 1:1 it's not very efficient.
[00:16:25] <SamWhited> not that it really matters in that case for most people
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[06:56:52] <Holger> Yeah I think everyone runs it 24/7 so there's too little incentive to implement MAM.
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[06:58:49] <Holger> (Er, the message I was responding to was old.)
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[06:59:57] <Zash> Threads plz
[07:00:14] <Zash> Or an in-reply-to thing
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[07:09:38] <Seve> Or real quotes and not just quotes :)
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[07:28:57] <Ge0rG> Seve: did you talk to KDE yet? 😉
[07:29:43] <Seve> Not yet, sorry. I've got a lot of work and haven't been able to put my hands on it :(
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[10:25:26] <edhelas> I'll have to work on a new XEP to store the user pubsub subscriptions in a PEP node
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[10:25:48] <edhelas> basically this XEP will be the same as https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html
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[10:26:08] <edhelas> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html sorry
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[10:26:49] <edhelas> except that the node will be configured in "whitelist"
[10:27:49] <jonasw> who would manage that list?
[10:27:53] <jonasw> the client?
[10:27:55] <edhelas> the clients
[10:27:59] <jonasw> hmm
[10:28:13] <jonasw> wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage its
[10:28:15] <jonasw> wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage it?
[10:28:19] <edhelas> each time you subscribe to a pubsub node you add your subscription in that list, the same way 0330 is doing
[10:28:54] <edhelas> jonasw I've mentionned that years ago, this need deep refactoring of how pubsub is handled in XMPP
[10:28:56] <Ge0rG> shouldn't the server automatically do the plumbing whenever you change that list, then?
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[10:29:01] <jonasw> edhelas, does it?
[10:29:07] <Ge0rG> XMPP 2.0!
[10:29:08] <jonasw> the server can sniff the traffic just like it does for MIX
[10:29:38] <edhelas> so for now I'm going for this solution, I'm doing that in Movim for a while already
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[10:29:48] <Kev> This is what Dave's PAM is for.
[10:29:52] <jonasw> alternatively, turn it the other way like Ge0rG suggests (modifications to the PEP node you’re proposing cause subscribes/unsubscribes)
[10:30:00] <jonasw> Kev, #?
[10:30:07] <edhelas> jonasw why not
[10:30:18] <Kev> 376
[10:30:20] <Ge0rG> edhelas: that would conveniently solve multi-client too
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[10:30:51] <edhelas> Ge0rG how do you think this will fit with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html ?
[10:30:54] <jonasw> oh yes, XEP-0376 looks good
[10:31:43] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I think it would be good to have a private list for subscription maintenance and a public list which is a subset of that
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[10:42:52] <Flow> I always wonder if PAM couldn't be designed transparent using standard xep60 <subscription/>
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[10:43:10] <jonasw> Flow, yeah, like mix does it
[10:43:24] <Flow> jonasw, isn't/wasn't MIX supposed to be using PAM for that?
[10:43:30] <jonasw> I don’t think it does
[10:43:53] <Flow> IIRC PAM was a result of Dave's and Kev's persistent groupchat discussion
[10:44:11] <Kev> jonasw: It uses something very like PAM.
[10:44:42] <Kev> Flow: PAM was a Dave thing that I just jumped on because it makes sense for MIX, IIRC.
[10:44:58] <Flow> so if it makes sense, then why isn't MIX using it?
[10:45:26] <Kev> MIX is using the same model, waiting to see if it makes sense to merge into PAM, or keep out.
[10:45:49] <Kev> " In future, the specifications in this section MAY be moved to a separate XEP or it MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [18] (PAM) which follows a similar model. "
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[10:46:13] <Steve Kille> When I did the MIX editing, there was nothing I could usefully reference, so MIX includes what it needs.
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[11:01:26] <Guus> daniel, regarding your HTTP Upload 0.5 change: As various network components between the HTTP client and server might inject headers of their own, it feels wrong to me to impose a MUST on what headers clients are allowed to add. It implies that this defines the set of headers that the server receives. I suggest dropping the client requirement (as it's not really enforceable), and instead stress on a need for the server to ignore headers other than the allowed set.
[11:02:27] <jonasw> Guus, did you follow the can-of-worms discussion this was in the last few days :)
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[11:02:41] <jonasw> the argument is that the server could exploit the client to send a request to a third party, for example your home router
[11:02:57] <jonasw> (essentially use the client as an HTTP proxy into the clients LAN)
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[11:03:17] <Kev> Sounds useful.
[11:03:19] <jonasw> to reduce the impact of that, the selection of headers was restricted; even though it’s not entirely clear to me how that helps in that scenario, really.
[11:03:42] <Flow> what jonasw said
[11:04:25] <jonasw> but Ge0rG kinda insisted on it
[11:04:49] <Guus> jonasw, I didn't follow that discussion, no.
[11:04:50] <Zash> Ough
[11:05:00] <Guus> I'm also not understanding the argument.
[11:05:17] <Zash> Bottomless can-of-worms?
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[11:05:46] <jonasw> Guus, essentially, it’s something along the lines of the Same Origin Policy enforced by browsers and the Cross-Origin Request Sharing policies
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[11:06:08] <Zash> jonasw: Double infinite bottomless can-of-worms?
[11:06:57] <Ge0rG> We can't fix web security, we can only restrict how much we are affected by it
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[11:07:08] <daniel> Guus: I don't not fully understand the argument either. But I'm not bothered by it and it won't go through council w/o that change
[11:07:27] <Guus> I'm not seeing how the client being prohibited to send certain headers prevents the server from sending anything it wants, abusive or not.
[11:07:28] <daniel> And I didn't even put headers into my original http upload
[11:09:16] <Ge0rG> Guus: with arbitrary headers you will make the xmpp client a reverse proxy for malicious xmpp servers.
[11:09:58] <daniel> Or let me rephrase that. I understand the problem (broken http interfaces in your local network). I'm not sure that limiting the headers does anything to fix your china router
[11:10:17] <Guus> can you spell out that attack vector for me Ge0rG?
[11:10:34] <Guus> (or point me to an archive?)
[11:13:31] <Ge0rG> Guus: have a look at http://blog.portswigger.net/2017/07/cracking-lens-targeting-https-hidden.html#host please
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[11:19:57] <Holger> Ge0rG: Isn't large parts of that article about playing with the request URI and the Host header? Which we place no restrictions on at all in XEP-0363?
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[11:24:28] <Guus> How does the client not sending certain headers outwards prevent the server from crafting malicious requests inwards?
[11:26:41] <Holger> Guus: The reasoning is preventing your XMPP server from crafting malicious HTTP PUT requests performed by your client.
[11:26:55] <Flow> Guus, hmm? It does not. But it's about the client performing requests
[11:28:09] <Flow> And those requests are handled by your (broken) home router
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[11:32:44] <Guus> right, now I get it.
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[11:33:50] <Guus> Thanks. I retract my earlier request to change the text :)
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[11:34:23] <Guus> (it was initially unclear to me that the text restricts only the headers-to-be-copied-from-the-server-instructions)
[11:34:24] <Holger> I get the idea too, I just still don't agree with imposing an arbitrary restriction due to a diffuse feeling this might reduce the impact on an attack performed by your trusted XMPP service we have not yet understood. But meh.
[11:34:52] <Guus> <lunch>
[11:34:58] <edhelas> I'd like to know if it's possible to "rename" a pubsub node
[11:35:15] <edhelas> would be really useful, especially when you have namespaces bump
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[11:40:06] <Holger> edhelas: Won't the namespace usually only be bumped if the node contents change in some way?
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[11:43:39] <edhelas> well sometime you have clients that are developping features with their own namespace
[11:43:45] <edhelas> then it get standardized
[11:43:52] <edhelas> like for OMEMO and Conversations
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[11:46:09] <jonasw> precisely the reason why the X-* antipattern was deprecated in the IETF
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[11:48:03] <daniel> Just wait for Ge0rG to find out that you can use jingle to port scan your contacts network 😂
[11:48:29] <daniel> Or have your contact scan other networks
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[11:52:13] <daniel> But we'll just grab the low hanging fruit before we get to the fancy stuff
[11:52:41] <Ge0rG> daniel: don't make me change my mind on Jingle Ft!
[11:53:26] <daniel> Idk. I vetoed it anyway
[11:53:36] <daniel> Not for that particular reason though
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[11:55:03] <Ge0rG> daniel: ah, right. outstanding feedback
[11:56:08] <daniel> but now i want to write a jingle portscanner. you could even distribute this among your contacts
[11:57:12] <Holger> Hehe I was thinking about Jingle exploits as well.
[11:57:12] <jonasw> daniel, build a webrtc portscanner. that should be much more impactful :)
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[11:57:47] <Holger> Or SI/SOCKS5.
[11:58:03] <Ge0rG> https://medium.com/hownetworks/how-did-i-turn-my-browser-into-a-port-scanner-tricksy-but-doable-c37db85f9adc
[11:58:18] <jonasw> well, SOCKS5 is a proxy protocol. it is meant to be a proxy and open connections, people will probably have put the appropriate security measures on it to prevent abuse
[11:58:32] <Ge0rG> Also https://github.com/beefproject/beef/wiki/Module:-Port-Scanner
[11:58:45] <Ge0rG> jonasw: probably.
[11:58:52] <Holger> jonasw: Wenn but I meant abusing the SOCKS5 client as a proxy in the Ge0rG sense.
[11:59:08] <jonasw> oh;
[11:59:14] <jonasw> how does one trick a socks5 client into doing that?
[11:59:42] <Holger> jonasw: The server could send the client SI/Jingle initiation requests?
[11:59:58] <jonasw> I’m probably not familiar how things work here
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[12:01:10] <Holger> The nice thing is that the server could do so actively, rather than waiting for the client to request upload slots.
[12:01:43] <daniel> Holger, clients might not (auto) accept that though
[12:02:17] <Holger> Yes it will probably fail because they only support a different Jingle revision anyway.
[12:02:22] <daniel> :-)
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[13:15:49] <intosi> Hiding/obfuscation of your nickname on your (re)application is an unhelpful thing.
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[13:20:28] <Guus> yet, not new.
[13:21:26] <intosi> Not new, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention it when it happens, nor that we should consider whether we'd even want that.
[13:21:53] <Guus> Wasn't it Steve Jobs who didn't want his car to be identifiiable, and utilizing a legislation loophole where he could drive with a car without a number plate - thus making the car immediately stand out as his, as he was the only one doing that?
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[13:22:32] <intosi> I'm not intimately familiar with the car collections of tech CEOs.
[13:22:40] <Guus> I always considered N********** to be a playful act.
[13:23:41] <Guus> https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/27/mystery-solved-why-steve-jobs-car-never-had-a-license-plate/
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[13:25:10] <intosi> Amusing :)
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[13:58:06] <jonasw> I don’t even know who that N****+ is
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[13:58:59] <Ge0rG> or what?
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[14:00:13] <Guus> Go down the occupants list of this room, and you'll figure it out :)
[14:01:38] <jonasw> Guus, unless I’m stupid, there’s none whose nickname length macthes
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[14:03:26] <mathieui> there’s a letter missing I think
[14:03:35] <mathieui> two levels of obfuscation!
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[14:05:01] <Guus> I didn't count, but rough comparison will do :)
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[14:20:33] <Dave Cridland> French... N***... It's Nÿco, right?
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[14:27:31] <SaltyBones> this is discussion is exhausting
[14:28:20] <SaltyBones> my brain autocompletes "N****" like "the N word" and this is all very inappropriate
[14:34:30] <pep.> Dave Cridland: there's another French N
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[14:37:33] <mathieui> I like how nobody wants to invoke Neu stradamus
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[21:04:37] <Neustradamus> :D
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[21:09:32] <Seve> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/msg02257.html
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[21:10:49] <moparisthebest> Wait Seve you are soul?
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[21:11:46] <Guus> yes he is
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[21:13:17] <moparisthebest> Ah ok was confused, I hate name changes :)
[21:13:29] <moparisthebest> That email has the best quote ever
[21:13:33] <moparisthebest> In Finland we have a saying for this sort of process: climbing a tree butt-first.
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[21:17:24] <MattJ> I went to a Lua meet-up at FOSDEM, and at the end someone asked how the Lua community stayed in touch. "Maybe we should use Telegram?" - I broke down on the spot
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[21:22:45] <Seve> moparisthebest, yeah, decided to change my name here. It felt weird to me to say 'I'm SouL' in person at FOSDEM hah
[21:23:07] <Seve> I discovered that email because I've been reading all KDE emails regarding their migration from IRC to something else
[21:24:40] <Neustradamus> Seve: ah ah
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[21:31:17] <moparisthebest> Seve: try saying hi I'm moparisthebest
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[21:31:42] <moparisthebest> I solve that by just never meeting people in real life lol
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[21:31:53] <mathieui> I still haven’t come up with a way of saying my nick in english non-awkwardly
[21:32:14] <moparisthebest> Also once I had to say lighttpd out loud in person
[21:32:25] <moparisthebest> Rough if you hadn't considered it before
[21:32:48] <moparisthebest> MattJ: did you chew them a new one lol
[21:33:06] *SamWhited is always tempted to change his name to abarthisthebest
[21:34:21] <SamWhited> or maybe: "acuraisthebestbutonlythensxandoldpreludes"
[21:34:53] *moparisthebest had to Wikipedia abarth
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[21:36:08] <moparisthebest> I only like American, no replacement for displacement
[21:36:26] <Seve> MattJ, did you tell them: 'Do you know who are you talking with!?'
Sad to hear that, though.
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[21:39:07] <SamWhited> It wasn't a great comparison… I was trying to think of other car companies that had something like mopar, but I think the others named divisions all actually make cars
[21:40:30] <moparisthebest> SamWhited: GM is the analogy I always use
[21:40:57] <moparisthebest> General Motors
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[21:41:20] <SamWhited> Do they have a named division or something like that?
[21:41:27] <SamWhited> (what do you even call that?)
[21:42:45] <moparisthebest> Like GM is to Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac as Mopar is to Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth
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[21:43:55] <SamWhited> GM is just the parent company of those brands though, isn't it? Mopar just sells parts for Fiat and Chryslers and builds the occasional rally car
[21:44:32] <SamWhited> GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Jeep or something like that
[21:44:34] <moparisthebest> Maybe technically but those cars are just collectivity called mopars
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[21:45:01] <SamWhited> ah, okay
[21:45:03] <moparisthebest> And they share plants and engines and such
[21:45:34] <moparisthebest> The big yearly meet drag race and car show is called the Mopar Nationals etc
[21:45:45] <SamWhited> GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Mopar then
[21:46:20] <SamWhited> This is an important classification to get correct in this chat room, obviously.
[21:46:21] <moparisthebest> Haha so abarth and Chrysler/jeep/Dodge are all seemed by Fiat now looks like
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[21:46:49] <SamWhited> I think Fiat and Chrysler merged, and Chrysler owned Jeep and maybe Dodge? I can never keep it straight.
[21:46:55] <moparisthebest> Well again business wise maybe, but I'd just call them GM vehicles
[21:47:08] <moparisthebest> Well it changes yearly I think
[21:47:33] <SamWhited> Huh, apparently fiat owns Alfa Romeo too, I didn't realize that
[21:47:58] <SamWhited> And Lancia, weird. Wish they'd bring them back.
[21:48:11] *SamWhited goes down the Wikipedia rabbit hole
[21:49:37] <moparisthebest> Let me know when it loops back around to XMPP, good luck
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[21:50:38] <SamWhited> We were talking about this at work yesterday actually… wikipedia races where each person starts on a random topic and has to get to a different topic only by clicking links on the page. Shortest path wins.
[21:50:43] <SamWhited> Fiat to XMPP would be a good one
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[21:52:10] <moparisthebest> That would be fun to program
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