XSF Discussion - 2018-02-22


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  10. moparisthebest What's that sasl mode that proves the server knows your password?
  11. moparisthebest I recall Zash talking about it, like it'd be safe to use with a self signed cert type thing
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  27. SamWhited moparisthebest: scram is one
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  112. Ge0rG https://signal.org/blog/signal-foundation/ wow! It's impressive what they've achieved with 2.3 developers, and now they are drowning in money.
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  148. Zash Ge0rG: Weren't they already drowning in money?
  149. Ge0rG Zash: they just got 50M USD on top.
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  165. marmistrz > by Brian Acton, the co-founder of WhatsApp
  166. marmistrz am I the only one to whom it's suspicous? :)
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  185. Ge0rG marmistrz: he sold it to facebook and made gazillions on it?
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  197. Ge0rG > sell software for distribution Jaber and base 450000 jabber - ready business for you is$500 a real bargain!
  198. jonasw I don’t even get it
  199. marc Ge0rG: ?
  200. Zash English is hard
  201. Ge0rG Just got another incoming XMPP spam flood
  202. jonasw I think he’s getting spimmed
  203. Ge0rG somebody is selling a jabber spam bot plus a JID database for 500 usd.
  204. marc Oh 😮
  205. Seve A real bargain!
  206. marmistrz Ge0rG: I know they sold it to fb, what I mean that "if it's shaped in the same way whatsapp was shaped"
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  215. marmistrz I mean, I'm not using signal (phone number as an ID is a bad idea), but if it's backed by the whatsapp founder, I'd have at least a little more suspicion before ever thinking to use it, judging from the way whatsapp has evolved
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  218. jonasw marmistrz, maybe the whatsapp founder feels bad for what happened :)
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  220. marmistrz jonasw, by supporting another walled garden?
  221. jonasw obviously he’s not opposed to walled gardens
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  223. marmistrz well, if someone donated 5% of what he did for XMPP client development...
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  256. Guus There are times that I wonder if our some on our support forums are high on something: "Smack Bubble in Rainbow"
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  260. Guus (A service provided by openrainbow.com is apparently XMPP based?)
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  262. Ge0rG marmistrz: there was a time when I respected moxie for what he does. Back then I'd have said that moxie will keep an eye on that money.
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  342. intosi General service announcement: systemd sucks.</rant>
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  344. MattJ Old news
  345. intosi I know.
  346. Ge0rG XMPP sucks, too.
  347. Zash Everything sucks.
  348. intosi No, no, you're wrong there.
  349. intosi My vacuum cleaner doesn't anymore.
  350. jonasw well played
  351. Kev Mine either, actually, its battery doesn't last a full round of the floor it's on :(
  352. Ge0rG Kev: should've bought a Tesla then :P
  353. Kev I call it Gir.
  354. Zash That's it! What we really need is Internet-connected battery-powered IoT vacuum cleaners that collects dust into a blockchain!
  355. Ge0rG Zash: into a quantum blockchain!
  356. Zash And battery charging as a service!
  357. intosi 3) profit!
  358. Ge0rG Zash: and huge batteries, because PoW performance
  359. Guus Kev: your floor is to large.
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  361. Kev Very much not!
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  365. Guus your vacuum cleaner disagrees.
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  367. Kev My vacuum cleaner is senile, it used to be fine with it.
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  370. Guus Hmm... Sure your floor didn't grow?
  371. Kev Moderately.
  372. Guus I concede.
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  374. Ge0rG Never underestimate continental drift!
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  378. Guus I unconcede. What he said!
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  386. pep. Can somebody add me into memberbot's roster? I sent a subscription presence yesterday
  387. jonasw pep., ping Alex
  388. pep. What he said ^
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  400. marc Ge0rG, are you going to change your langing page such that it accepts xmpp URIs?
  401. Ge0rG marc: are you going to look up how to do a string replace in Erlang?
  402. marc Ge0rG, yeah, if you tell me the reason for _not_ using the xmpp URI ;)
  403. Ge0rG marc: every character counts. more characters = longer QR codes = less readabiliy = higher chance for typos when entering manually
  404. Ge0rG marc: the "xmpp:" is really redundant there.
  405. Ge0rG marc: besides, you need to url-encode the JID anyway, so you won't get around custom processing.
  406. Ge0rG marc: and you could just make the default prefix "xmpp:" for when constructing the link
  407. marc Ge0rG, that's not a good reason for _not_ accepting it ;)
  408. Ge0rG marc: yes it is. I'm forcing you to do something that's good for your users.
  409. marc ...
  410. marc sounds like I need to fork :D
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  412. Ge0rG marc: or you need to bury your ego and just listen to what my ego says is the right thing™ 😛
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  414. marc Ge0rG, not sure if this is gonna happen for this thing ;)
  415. jonasw marc, FWIW, I think Ge0rG has a point here.
  416. marc jonasw, 5 chars?
  417. marc are you going to ban too long local parts of a JID too? :D
  418. marc or too long domain names?
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  421. Ge0rG marc: now guess why I own yax.im
  422. marc Ge0rG, because it's a funny name?
  423. marc probably I'll append the OMEMO keys to the QR code
  424. marc We generate QR codes for a XMPP URI and 5 OMEMO keys at the moment
  425. marc Works fine
  426. Ge0rG marc: to the xmpp URI or to the location URL?
  427. marc Ge0rG, to the xmpp URI
  428. marc doesn't make sense to transfer OMEMO keys via an "insecure" channel
  429. Ge0rG marc: not much probably.
  430. marc it's for the QR code only
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  432. Ge0rG marc: I mean obviously it does make sense to transmit them but not to trust them.
  433. Ge0rG just check for MitM
  434. marc Ge0rG, nitpicker ;)
  435. Ge0rG marc: professional pessimist^W security analyst :P
  436. marc Ge0rG, if we put the URI into the fragment part we don't need to URL encode it AFAIK
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  439. Ge0rG marc: except when we do.
  440. marc Ge0rG, hm?
  441. Ge0rG marc: as I mentioned some days ago, have a look at typical irc Transport JIDs
  442. Ge0rG marc: https://yax.im/i/#%23channel%25irc.man-da.de@irc.transport.server?join
  443. marc Ge0rG, wtf should I care about IRC transport URIs for invitation?
  444. Ge0rG marc: "#" is a valid local part character
  445. marc Ge0rG, "'#" can be used as username?
  446. Zash -nodeprep #hello
  447. Bunneh Zash: #hello
  448. jonasw yeah
  449. Ge0rG really needs to change name into Cassandra.
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  451. marc Ge0rG, but URL encoding is the wrong thing here, we don't need to escape all characters as not URL encoders do
  452. marc ...as normal..
  453. Ge0rG marc: good luck figuring out the right subset. Also don't forget to tell me!
  454. marc Ge0rG, if you would _really_ care about the chars you would spend your time to figure it out ;)
  455. Ge0rG marc: I'm here to point out the problems, not the solutions!
  456. Guus wait, I thought you were here because you were our mascot?
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  461. Ge0rG Guus: what? I'm way too sexy for that! 😁
  462. Seve A sexy mascot is what we need so..
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  482. Guus w00t! just had my first in-client video conference :)
  483. Guus it's still very rough around the edges, but still, I'm excited :)
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  486. Seve Great Guus :D
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  488. Ge0rG Guus: we are only a decade behind?
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  490. Guus stop raining on my parade!
  491. Guus I've created a beautiful freak!
  492. Guus outdated, yes. incomplete, yes.
  493. Ge0rG Guus: oh, your own client. Good work, then! :)
  494. Ge0rG Time to catch up!
  495. Guus does the happydance
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  501. marc Guus: Video conference via XMPP/Jingle?
  502. marc Ge0rG, After a walk in the sunshine I'm convinced now ;)
  503. Ge0rG marc: :)
  504. Guus marc, yes (although we're cheating by embedding jitsi-meet in a browser component)
  505. marc Guus, is this some closed-source component?
  506. Tobias Guus, but doing jingle xmpp protocol?
  507. Guus Jitsi Meet is open source, a webrtc-based solution that uses XMPP (COIN/Colibri/Jingle) for negotiation.
  508. Guus we've server-sided wrapped that solution in a very-easy-to-install plugin
  509. Guus clients will detect its presence, and use it isntead of the public instance
  510. Guus from there, it's a matter of opening the correct URL, and let Jitsi do the rest.
  511. Holger What's COIN?
  512. Guus Added bonus is that users of our client can invite anyone that has a browser.
  513. marc Guus, so you had a video conference between browsers running jitsi meet?
  514. Guus https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0298.html
  515. Guus marc, yes.
  516. Holger Guus: Ah, thanks.
  517. marc Guus, with n > 2?
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  519. Guus yes. not unlike google talk
  520. Guus err
  521. Guus hangouts
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  523. Guus I can try posting an invite here, if you want
  524. Guus (beware, alpha-quality software release)
  525. Guus Please join me in this web-based video-conference room: https://meet.jit.si/xsf
  526. marc Guus, masked camera here ;)
  527. marc But I can see you :D
  528. Guus I am nice to look at :D
  529. marc Nice
  530. marc Works fine
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  532. Guus yeah, one-on-one is peer-to-peer
  533. marc Maybe somebody else can join to test with n > 2? :)
  534. Guus beyond that, a bridge kicks in
  535. marc where is that bridge hosted?
  536. Guus I've added a uuid to make the room name somewhat more unique, but neglected doing that in a muc context
  537. Guus it's part of the Jitsi setup. We're now using their public service, but that is also deployable as an Openfire plugin
  538. marc Nice, now we need this in some desktop / moible client :)
  539. Guus (or a standalone installation if you go with their setup)
  540. Guus they do have a mobile client
  541. marc okay, now we need this in other mobile clients :D
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  543. Guus they have an API that potentially is usable for that
  544. Guus not my area of expertise though
  545. SamWhited Jitsi doesn't like my home network for some reason, that's new.
  546. Guus I popped out for a second
  547. Guus still, you should've been able to join that Meet.
  548. Guus ... you know that, having worked at their stuff :)
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  551. SamWhited one would think, but I've already forgotten most of how it works.
  552. SamWhited You're the expert, fix it Guus!
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  555. Guus if you're trying to use their public service, it should pretty much work out of the box, if you're not blocking outbound traffic and have a relatively sane NAT setup.
  556. Guus other than that, Damian is a hero :)
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  559. SamWhited Indeed
  560. SamWhited I'll dig in later, catching the bus now. My network hasn't changed to my knowledge, so maybe it just needs a kick
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  567. Ge0rG is just "participating" in a Lync conference call. The audio works for the first second, and then there is silence.
  568. Maranda Nice
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  570. Ge0rG I wonder when my coworkers will figure it out.
  571. Ge0rG I'm only 19mins and two reboots in.
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  573. Maranda Wasn't Lync one of those dismissed things by Microsoft btw?
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  575. Maranda (it should be "Skype for Bussness" now)
  576. Ge0rG Maranda: it's not dismissed, just renamed.
  577. Maranda 🤣
  578. Maranda Touche
  579. Ge0rG Third reboot, same result.
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  582. Maranda Keep going, try with a kick or two since you're at it 🤣
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  584. Guus Board meeting time
  585. ralphm bangs gavel
  586. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  587. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  588. ralphm Who do we have?
  589. Guus Nyco apologised earlier
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  592. Guus Martin is showing as offline to me
  593. Guus Mattj?
  594. MattJ Here
  595. ralphm ok good
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  598. Guus shall we?
  599. ralphm So I don't see many changes from last time around. Did we progress on any of the items in our Trello, and discuss it?
  600. MattJ I think we skipped last week because of lack of people, and I don't remember the week before that
  601. Guus we skipped the week before too
  602. Guus no progress that I am aware of, although one new item was added
  603. Guus the comm-wt card
  604. ralphm Ok
  605. Ge0rG And I forgot to write to an ML regarding a SPAM SIG :(
  606. ralphm Ok, let's start with these then
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  608. ralphm 1. Communications Team
  609. Guus if desirable, we can do a post-mortem on the summit/fosdem too
  610. ralphm (ok)
  611. ralphm I'm with Kev on this, that we don't really need this to be formalized
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  613. ralphm (at the moment)
  614. ralphm I'd rather just first see some stuff happening, without the yak shaving
  615. Guus I think it helps to get stuff under way
  616. ralphm How?
  617. Guus by defining that team members get access to things they want to use to produce stuff.
  618. ralphm I strongly believe we should get away from needing some kind of formal structure to be able to do things.
  619. MattJ I'm hearing that, combined with "we need to restrict access to XSF resources"
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  621. Ge0rG you might want to approve the persons named for comm-wt access to github, before they go away in disdain.
  622. Guus well, getting access to resources are a pain. I've done that plenty of times recently, and it was always painful and took way to long for comfort.
  623. ralphm Ge0rG: wait what?
  624. Guus i'm not seeing harm in us formaly defining the team again, and defining that its members get read/write access to our website and social media accounts.
  625. stefandxm has left
  626. MattJ Same here
  627. Ge0rG ralphm: referring to JC's last email on that thread.
  628. MattJ I agree this shouldn't be so painful, but it appears to me that (re)formation of the team seems the least painful way for everyone involved
  629. Guus (also, the overhead of us doing this is minor)
  630. ThurahT has left
  631. ralphm But since this is GitHub, why can't we start with pull requests (that don't require any additional permissions) and move from that? I think that's the point Kev tried to make. I'm not opposed to restart a formal team, but I don't see it being on the critical path.
  632. Ge0rG ralphm: the deployment cycle via PRs and editor bugging is long and frustrating
  633. Guus ralphm: because it's keeping the team-members dependent of others, and thus less effective. Also, I really don't see the harm in not giving them access.
  634. Guus why not facilitate them if it benefits us all?
  635. marmistrz has joined
  636. Guus as I said, most of the work for board on this is this debate. After that, it's asking iteam to add some permissions to existing resources.
  637. Guus which I assume will take them about five minutes to implement
  638. intosi iteam can do that, words need only be said.
  639. ralphm Ok, so let me get this straight. The deployment cycle of the site itself is cumbersome and would require an Editor to approve?
  640. intosi It does not.
  641. Guus no, it now requires <unnamed entity> (usually me) to approve.
  642. intosi It requires someone with commit permissions on the website repo to merge the PR.
  643. nifker has left
  644. MattJ Which is currently (iteam + editors)?
  645. Guus no, it's undefined, as far as I know
  646. Ge0rG wouldn't that be another reason to name it "comm-team"?
  647. Guus (defining that comm-team gets access would be another nice side-eff... what he said)
  648. Guus What would be arguments for _not_ doing this?
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  651. ralphm Well, it is just a bit of work to get going.
  652. ralphm You need a charter, a chair and Members (only).
  653. Guus I believe that's neglible.
  654. Guus the charter has been proposed, as has the chair and member list
  655. Guus (on list, and in @commsteam)
  656. Guus @commteam, not @commsteam
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  659. MattJ I'm also inclined towards "let's just do it"
  660. ralphm Ok. I didn't see the chair mentioned. I have no strong objections to having a formal team with only those Members having those accesses for publishing at xmpp.org
  661. Guus the chair was mentioned in the MUC only (being JC)
  662. ralphm Aha
  663. Guus it'd also be good if that team can use our social media accounts (which currently is limited to Twitter, I think?)
  664. Ge0rG It would be great to mention all the many XMPP-deploying projects on @XMPP
  665. ralphm So the proposal is as the e-mail with JC as chair.
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  667. ralphm The only objection I have is Simon not (currently) being a Member.
  668. ralphm AFIAK
  669. Guus ah, good catch.
  670. Guus bylaws do say: "Participation in Teams shall be limited to elected Members of the Corporation."
  671. ralphm Indeed that was my point
  672. ralphm So assuming Guus is motioning this with the exception of Simon, I'm +1
  673. Guus he's not listed as a member, nor do find an application for him
  674. Guus Ok, I'm motioning.
  675. ralphm For the record: Daniel Wisnewski (Daniel_W) Jan-Carel Brand (jcbrand) as Chair Nicolas Vérité (Nyco) Severino Ferrer de la Peñita (Seve or SouL) Charter: The team's mission is to inform the XMPP community and interested parties on news and recent developments within XMPP ecosystem.
  676. MattJ So he can still submit PRs/etc. but a member will need to approve
  677. MattJ Still an acceptable situation if you ask me
  678. ralphm Right
  679. Guus agreed
  680. ralphm I left off the second part of the charter as it seems superfluous and not alligned with the bylaws w.r.t. openness of the team itself. Of course others are still free to contribute through the Team.
  681. ralphm aligned even
  682. Guus agreed (as was agreed on in the mail htread)
  683. ralphm Yeah, just repeating here for the record
  684. Guus I'm +1 to the formation of the WT, the chair and member list, and the charter.
  685. ralphm +1 (again)
  686. MattJ +1
  687. ralphm Yay
  688. Guus also, I motion that we grant read/write permission to the source code repository that holds the XMPP.org website code to all members of the Communications work team - which should reflect future team changes.
  689. ralphm The motion carries.
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  692. ralphm Guus: I don't think we need to formalize that per se. But I'm sure Kev and intosi can make sure of the necessary technical requirements for the Team to carry out their task.
  693. blabla has left
  694. Guus I'd simply like to avoid a situation where everyone looks at eachother and wonders who is allowed access, by making this explicit.
  695. jubalh has joined
  696. intosi Is there a list of github user ids for the members of the comms team?
  697. moparisthebest has joined
  698. Guus intosi: I'll ask them to provide that
  699. intosi Ta.
  700. ralphm I'm sure there will be other things that access is required for and I'm not sure if asking Board every time is needed. If iteam would give out too many creds, that'd be the day.
  701. intosi Sure. Comms team can just ask iteam.
  702. Guus I was going to follow up with one more similar motion, for social media accounts :)
  703. ralphm I trust iteam to handle this all properly.
  704. Guus ok, works for me
  705. ralphm I think that's enough for today, right?
  706. MattJ wfm
  707. andy has left
  708. Guus yup
  709. ralphm 2. Date of Next
  710. ralphm +1W
  711. ralphm 3. Close
  712. MattJ wfm
  713. ralphm Thanks all!
  714. ralphm bangs gavel
  715. Guus works for me
  716. Guus thank you
  717. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  718. Ge0rG No spam team this week.
  719. Ge0rG *sniff*
  720. Guus sorry Ge0rG
  721. MattJ Ge0rG, haven't we discussed the spam team 50 times already?
  722. ralphm We actually rejected it because there wasn't a feeling of needing a team of SIG for doing things around that topic.
  723. Ge0rG MattJ: with the Spam Fighting Manifesto, there is some traction in the open to improve default server configs, write modules to block domains etc.
  724. ralphm Great.
  725. jjrh has left
  726. Ge0rG but that said Manifesto is made by a single volunteer who lacks time to incorporate feedback from server admins already.
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  729. MattJ Github repo and get people to submit PRs - if unable to merge PRs, find the people that you imagine in the SIG and grant them access to merge the PRs
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  731. intosi An impromptu SIGish, if you like.
  732. Ge0rG I had hoped for something more official than my private github account, but okay.
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  735. ralphm why?
  736. ralphm Please, and I have asked this before, why can't you do any of this without 'something more official'?
  737. ralphm I don't understand this at all.
  738. Ge0rG I'm doing it already, as far as my time permits. Sorry for bothering you.
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  740. intosi comm team effective immediately, with the list JC mailed?
  741. intosi I note that Winfried replied that he wanted to be on it as well.
  742. Ge0rG intosi: without Simon AFAIU
  743. ralphm Ge0rG: it is not about bothering. It is about not feeling for doing a lot of bureaucracy just because.
  744. Ge0rG ralphm: ah, I see
  745. Guus intosi, in my understanding, Winfried was in, Simon out.
  746. jonasw couldn’t we put the anti spam manifesto under the xsf account?
  747. ralphm intosi: yes. I think Winfried already has permissions, by the way, and I wasn't sure if was actually applying for the team or merely contributing.
  748. Guus intosi, scratch that
  749. Guus we didn't include Winfried when voting (I overlooked that)
  750. ralphm jonasw: why?
  751. jonasw ralphm, dunno, if georg is unhappy with having that under his account
  752. ralphm The TLS manifesto was also not an XSF activity and worked out fine
  753. jonasw I’m just throwing ideas in the room
  754. MattJ jonasw, as I understand it some people are opposed to the manifesto. It's just going to cause way more debate and just be counter-productive when it's totally unnecessary in the first place
  755. jonasw yeah, true
  756. ralphm and what MattJ said applied to that manifesto, too
  757. MattJ Right
  758. andy has joined
  759. intosi I have added JC as maintainer of the comm team group
  760. jjrh has left
  761. MattJ I'm not opposed to the manifesto, and Ge0rG, if you need help, I and others would be more than willing I'm sure
  762. intosi Invited Nÿco, kept Winfried in it for now, and require two more github user names, for SouL and for Daniel_W.
  763. MattJ Thanks intosi
  764. Guus SeveFP <-- Soul's github
  765. intosi Guus: ta
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  767. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks for your offer!
  768. winfried In is ok for me (I am in a meeting, can't communicate all the time)
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  775. intosi I suggest that the comm teams adds its own page to the website, and optionally fixes its own wiki page :)
  776. Guus it's nice how we keep having the same conversation in two different MUCs :)
  777. Guus I just proposed that (sans the wiki, but that's a good idea)
  778. jjrh has left
  779. intosi Don't know in which muc that happened, but I'm not in it :)
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  787. Guus commteam@muc.xmpp.org
  788. intosi Ah, not something I'd want to be in on a permanent basis currently :)
  789. jjrh has left
  790. Guus you not being in it made it more impressive
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  792. intosi Great minds, fools, there was something with a comparison there.
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  993. marc Ge0rG, fixed my ejabberd implementation but your landing page doesn't work on "firefox klar"
  994. marc Ge0rG, no button is clickable
  995. marc Ge0rG, can you verify and at least add an issue please
  996. Seve/SouL has left
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  998. marc works fine on firefox (desktop version)
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  1004. waqas marc: Is that different than Firefox Focus?
  1005. marc waqas, it seems, I don't know if they use a different engine, probably not
  1006. marc maybe some javascript issue but at least some javascript code works
  1007. marc the xmpp URI is correct etc.
  1008. marc waqas, oh, thought you're asking about "normal" firefox
  1009. waqas https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.focus&hl=en and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.klar&hl=en look practically the same, both were updated on February 5, and only Focus is listed on the Mozilla page: https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Mozilla&hl=en
  1010. marc waqas, does it work for "firefox focus"?
  1011. waqas I was asking what Klar was, as I've only heard of Focus
  1012. marc waqas, AFAIK it's just the german version of firefox focus
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  1014. waqas Ah, right you are: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/difference-between-firefox-focus-and-firefox-klar
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