XSF Discussion - 2018-02-23


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  172. jonasw fun
  173. jonasw always reassuring when software foundations partner with media
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  338. Ge0rG https://medium.com/processone/eve-online-chat-is-moving-to-ejabberd-8e73d40fa887
  339. Guus Nice - I thought they already were.
  340. jonasw cool
  341. jonasw tips hat to the ejabberd folks
  342. jonasw well done :)
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  344. Ge0rG This is something that should be promoted via our social media team.
  345. Zash COMM team, assemble!
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  347. jonasw indeed
  348. Seve We were already on it :)
  349. Kev Ge0rG: More information on this is coming next week. I've been in touch with the devs and generally offered to be helpful if I can be.
  350. jonasw \o/
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  352. Ge0rG Kev: that's great. We still should promote it now. We could also offer them a place on our own blog instead of medium?
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  354. Guus Ge0rG, why are you not on the comm wt?
  355. Kev Presumably we'd promote the source article (linked here the other day), rather than the P1 repost.
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  357. jonasw I didn’t click the source article, somehow I thought from the URL that they were moving away from XMPP and I wanted to avoid making myself sad
  358. Ge0rG Kev: what's wrong with promoting both?
  359. Kev Nope. Never used XMPP before, now they are going to. Which is cool.
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  361. Zash Hm, wasn't some large-ish game already using xmpp for chat?
  362. jonasw roit?
  363. jonasw leage of legends?
  364. Ge0rG Zash: Riot Games
  365. Zash Ah, so it was another 3 letter acronym
  366. jonasw lol (pun intended)
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  369. Ge0rG So who's responsible for @xmpp on twitter?
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  371. Kev Board, ultimately.
  372. Kev But I imagine they'll delegate to the commteam now.
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  374. Ge0rG I'd really like to get the two articles twittered about. Something like "Congratulations to EVE Online for joining the robust and scalable XMPP ecosystem! <link1> <link2>"
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  386. marc jonasw, I can push a change for xep401 to use namespaces for the nodes, shall I?
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  389. marc Ge0rG, can you think of a way how we can properly manage interoperability between XEP-0158 and XEP-0401?
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  391. marc Just using both fields in the IBR form would be my proposal :D
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  400. Ge0rG marc: aren't there ibr captchas already?
  401. Ge0rG That would be an argument pro data forms indeed.
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  403. marc Ge0rG, XEP-0158 is IBR captcha
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  405. marc Ge0rG, yes, it would be "easy" to combine both
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  408. Ge0rG the _right_ thing would probably be to integrate the captcha into the form sent back when you attempt to make an invitation
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  410. marc Ge0rG, good point
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  413. marc Ge0rG, can you post that on the ML?
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  418. Ge0rG marc: no. It will end up in pointless debate about how to make the onboarding harder.
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  420. Ge0rG marc: I don't have captchas on my server and I'm perfectly able to kill off spam accounts.
  421. marc Ge0rG, okay, so you don't like the CAPTCHA idea?
  422. Ge0rG captchas are a pointless insult to your users.
  423. Ge0rG I could live with captchas to external users sending me spam, but only as a workaround for the inability to delay stanzas in mod_firewall
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  425. marc Ge0rG, okay, actually I don't care about botnets and spam because I run a private service - you and the other XSF guys should know what's best
  426. Ge0rG marc: "the other XSF guys" might disagree with me, but I don't care.
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  428. marc Ge0rG, doesn't sound like we can make fast progress with this XEP ;)
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  435. Ge0rG marc: the main question that remains for me is: data forms or ad-hoc ibr extension?
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  437. Ge0rG So far, only Jonas reacted to my rationale
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  439. Ge0rG I wish for some more feedback from the council members that raised concerns with ad-hoc ibr
  440. marc Ge0rG, okay, to me it looks like data forms are the best solution but I don't have much experience with the XMPP internals
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  442. marc And I thought the IBR data forms are exactly for such extensions
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  445. Ge0rG marc: data forms are well suited to ask the user questions
  446. Dave Cridland has left
  447. marc Ge0rG, actually I don't get why you're against data forms
  448. Ge0rG Less so to mix hidden and visible fields
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  456. marc Ge0rG, okay, I'll stop working on the implementation until I get some feedback from @standards how we proceed
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  460. marc Unfortunately, from next month on I won't have that much time
  461. Ge0rG marc: I wonder how big the needed changes are afterwards
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  464. marc Ge0rG: depends on how the general feedback is
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  466. marc There is no feedback at all except from Jonas and you
  467. Ge0rG marc: I mean to switch between ibr and data forms
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  472. marc Ge0rG: not that big... I already changed it ;)
  473. Ge0rG marc: then you can just go on implementing everything else
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  479. Zash {jabber🇮🇶register}token?
  480. Zash argh
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  482. Ge0rG 🤣
  483. jonasw marc: yes for the node name change
  484. Ge0rG Zash: I've put an updated version of the plugin online
  485. Zash Inventing new elements in an existing namespace seems weird to me
  486. Zash "online"
  487. Ge0rG Zash: same URL
  488. Zash Ge0rG: Where did you publish this?
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  492. Ge0rG Zash: just search in your history for the random pastebin id
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  494. Zash \o/
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  498. marc jonasw: okay
  499. Guus but yeah, first order of business is to make sure that the certificates that are used actually cover the server host name
  500. Guus (which is why I got started working on certs in Openfire in the first place)
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  502. Guus I'm thinking that you locally have both a proper certificate, and match your xmpp domain name to your server FQDN.
  503. Guus that saves you some trouble :)
  504. Guus hey, what?
  505. Guus hargh, my tabs changed :)
  506. Guus disregard my last text :)
  507. Ge0rG Certificate verification is an arcane witchcraft. Don't get into it if you want to prevent embarrassing vulnerabilities
  508. Ge0rG Speaking from experience
  509. Zash It is known
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  527. marc jonasw, on top of my pending change?
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  550. Ge0rG Zash: https://op-co.de/tmp/emoji_ascii.py (returned to a PC now)
  551. Zash Thanks
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  553. Ge0rG (same URL as always, I was just mocking you for putting everything into ungreppable pastebins; sorry)
  554. jonasw marc, better not
  555. jonasw marc, Ge0rG seems to not like that change :)
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  557. Ge0rG marc: your PR contained both the error fixes and a change from adhoc-IBR to data-forms, right?
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  560. marc Ge0rG: yes
  561. marc jonasw: how to handle the version number then?
  562. jonasw marc, don’t, that’s the editors job in case of doubt
  563. marc jonasw: also no description?
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  567. jonasw marc, make descriptive commit message s:)
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  569. marc jonasw: okay
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  584. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't like one of the two changes that were part of the same commit
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  586. jonasw Ge0rG, true
  587. Ge0rG jonasw: but please don't get me started about commit chains depending on dead ends
  588. Ge0rG jonasw: irregardless of what I like, I will bow to Council's decision
  589. jonasw what is councils decision on this experimental xep?
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  591. Ge0rG jonasw: it was accepted as experimental with some IBR data-forms sentiment
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  594. Maranda About games using xmpp for chat, Perfect World Entertainment/Cryptic Studios use XMPP for their out of game to in-game chat interface from like 2011
  595. Maranda (e.g. Star Trek Online)
  596. Maranda (Neverwinter)
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  598. vanitasvitae I like the fact, that a Star Trek game is using XMPP given the fact, that all species in the star trek universe can call each others ships without any issues
  599. Ge0rG Kev: so who is _technically able_ to post on @xmpp twitter?
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  601. Zash I remember mention of Twitter account setup such that people could be given access easily. How did that go?
  602. Ge0rG Guus: I didn't volunteer because I plainly lack the time
  603. Guus As nicely illustrated by answering after 2 1/2 hours
  604. Ge0rG Guus: sorry :(
  605. Guus no worries :)
  606. Ge0rG Guus: do you know who can twitter out things?
  607. Ge0rG Ah, there it was already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16445365
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  625. marc jonasw, done in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/592
  626. marc Oh damn, I should adapt the examples :D
  627. jonasw yeah
  628. jonasw do that :)
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  631. marc okay, done
  632. jonasw lgtm
  633. jonasw Ge0rG, I can’t seem to find councils statemetn on easy user onboarding
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  637. Ge0rG jonasw: I wish council minutes were better greppable.
  638. Yagiza has left
  639. Ge0rG Can't we have links to the council MUC from the XEP history? :D
  640. jonasw hah
  641. Ge0rG jonasw: Dave's comment is in the lines after http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2018-01-17#16:06:45
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  643. Ge0rG jonasw: Kev commented on-list: > Not blocking this (+1), but the addition of fields into IBR seems wrong - don’t we have xep4 in IBR for this reason?
  644. jonasw ok
  645. jonasw so I should be merging the PR against 401 and you delayed that for no reason? ;-)
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  647. Ge0rG https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-January/034152.html is the link
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  649. Ge0rG jonasw: yes. I'm an asshole :P
  650. jonasw m(
  651. jonasw I know, zinid said that
  652. Ge0rG jonasw: seriously though, I provided my rationale for adding fields into IBR on-list, and I hoped that Dave and Kev would comment on that.
  653. jonasw Ge0rG, well, okay. so should we be waiting longer?
  654. Ge0rG jonasw: yes please.
  655. jonasw gaaah just say that! :P
  656. jonasw you wasted a minute of my time :P
  657. Ge0rG jonasw: I what? Why?
  658. jonasw because of thinking on whether or not to merge this now and hunting references and so on :P
  659. Yagiza has joined
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  661. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe data-forms have an advantage for server developers, where a single hook API can be exposed for all registration-related things. I don't know.
  662. Ge0rG All I know is how it's the easiest for a client.
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  665. jonasw I find it useful to have extensibility here
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  667. Ge0rG Do we have something for hidden fields in data forms?
  668. jonasw type hidden?
  669. jonasw like FORM_TYPE is?
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  677. Ge0rG https://www.quora.com/What-technology-does-the-iOS-Apple-Push-Notification-Service-APNS-use-to-maintain-a-persistent-connection-with-each-device-to-receive-such-fast-push-notifications
  678. Ge0rG jonasw: like field type hidden, but to be filled out by the client
  679. jonasw Ge0rG, > hidden The field is not shown to the form-submitting entity, but instead is returned with the form. The form-submitting entity SHOULD NOT modify the value of a hidden field, but MAY do so if such behavior is defined for the "using protocol".
  680. Dave Cridland has left
  681. jonasw so exactly like field type hidden?
  682. Dave Cridland has left
  683. Ge0rG jonasw: I was just going to post that quote, yes!
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  708. SaltyBones so, just in case you don't have it on your radar yet
  709. SaltyBones GDPR will be in effect from may on
  710. andy has joined
  711. SaltyBones GDPR will be in effect from May on
  712. jonasw I still have no idea what that means.
  713. SaltyBones I just attended a talk about it and tried to pull out of the guys nose what I have to do.
  714. SaltyBones And the answer is definitely not nothing.
  715. jonasw what is the answer then?
  716. SaltyBones In fact it is apparently so far away from nothing that it can only be described as "it's complicated" and he pretty much suggested that I shut down.
  717. Yagiza has left
  718. jonasw "you"?
  719. SaltyBones Well, to not complicate things I only told him that I am running an e-mail server for family and friends...
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  721. SaltyBones And apparently that means you actually have to do a bunch of things that somehow magically conform to the legalese of risk analysis and all the other umpteen steps I just heard about...
  722. SaltyBones I think nobody knows what it will mean in practice yet. The documents are complex and contain the usual, excessive amount of weaselwords.
  723. jonasw can someone not affected sue me?
  724. jonasw if not, I don’t care.
  725. suzyo has joined
  726. SaltyBones I have no clue. He at some point seemed to answer this question with yes and later with no. :p
  727. Yagiza has joined
  728. SaltyBones I just wanted to mention it.
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  730. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I'm a professional GDPR consultant. I can support you at only 175€/hr.
  731. Zash Is "Self-host in your own home" still the best way to avoid all legalities?
  732. SaltyBones Ask Ge0rG! :D
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  734. Ge0rG Zash: no. "Do not store other people's data" is the best way.
  735. Zash Good thing we made MAM mandatory!
  736. Ge0rG Zash: you might understand now why I insist on https://prosody.im/issues/867 so much.
  737. Zash Ge0rG: I'd probably go with disabling it entirely until explicitly enabled via prefs if I were me
  738. Ge0rG Zash: are you you?
  739. Zash Not sure
  740. Ge0rG I'm sure I'm not you.
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  804. Zash Uh, this doesn't look right: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html#registrar-formtypes-register
  805. Zash Is that the same as the captcha from above it?
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