Friday, February 23, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:07:42] <jonasw> fun
[07:07:53] <jonasw> always reassuring when software foundations partner with media
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[10:46:38] <Ge0rG> https://medium.com/processone/eve-online-chat-is-moving-to-ejabberd-8e73d40fa887
[10:47:19] <Guus> Nice - I thought they already were.
[10:48:07] <jonasw> cool
[10:48:13] *jonasw tips hat to the ejabberd folks
[10:48:14] <jonasw> well done :)
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[10:49:58] <Ge0rG> This is something that should be promoted via our social media team.
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[10:50:08] <Zash> COMM team, assemble!
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[10:50:19] <jonasw> indeed
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[10:51:19] <Seve> We were already on it :)
[10:51:25] <Kev> Ge0rG: More information on this is coming next week. I've been in touch with the devs and generally offered to be helpful if I can be.
[10:51:26] <jonasw> \o/
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[10:53:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: that's great. We still should promote it now. We could also offer them a place on our own blog instead of medium?
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[10:53:53] <Guus> Ge0rG, why are you not on the comm wt?
[10:54:04] <Kev> Presumably we'd promote the source article (linked here the other day), rather than the P1 repost.
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[10:55:17] <jonasw> I didn’t click the source article, somehow I thought from the URL that they were moving away from XMPP and I wanted to avoid making myself sad
[10:55:24] <Ge0rG> Kev: what's wrong with promoting both?
[10:55:34] <Kev> Nope. Never used XMPP before, now they are going to. Which is cool.
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[10:56:15] <Zash> Hm, wasn't some large-ish game already using xmpp for chat?
[10:56:42] <jonasw> roit?
[10:56:48] <jonasw> leage of legends?
[10:56:53] <Ge0rG> Zash: Riot Games
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[10:58:04] <Zash> Ah, so it was another 3 letter acronym
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[10:58:21] <jonasw> lol (pun intended)
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[11:00:51] <Ge0rG> So who's responsible for @xmpp on twitter?
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[11:01:42] <Kev> Board, ultimately.
[11:01:47] <Kev> But I imagine they'll delegate to the commteam now.
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[11:06:31] <Ge0rG> I'd really like to get the two articles twittered about. Something like "Congratulations to EVE Online for joining the robust and scalable XMPP ecosystem! <link1> <link2>"
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[11:21:14] <marc> jonasw, I can push a change for xep401 to use namespaces for the nodes, shall I?
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[11:24:06] <marc> Ge0rG, can you think of a way how we can properly manage interoperability between XEP-0158 and XEP-0401?
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[11:26:16] <marc> Just using both fields in the IBR form would be my proposal :D
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[11:30:59] <Ge0rG> marc: aren't there ibr captchas already?
[11:31:20] <Ge0rG> That would be an argument pro data forms indeed.
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[11:31:24] <marc> Ge0rG, XEP-0158 is IBR captcha
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[11:31:53] <marc> Ge0rG, yes, it would be "easy" to combine both
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[11:33:24] <Ge0rG> the _right_ thing would probably be to integrate the captcha into the form sent back when you attempt to make an invitation
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[11:34:10] <marc> Ge0rG, good point
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[11:35:12] <marc> Ge0rG, can you post that on the ML?
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[11:36:43] <Ge0rG> marc: no. It will end up in pointless debate about how to make the onboarding harder.
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[11:37:09] <Ge0rG> marc: I don't have captchas on my server and I'm perfectly able to kill off spam accounts.
[11:37:19] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, so you don't like the CAPTCHA idea?
[11:37:26] <Ge0rG> captchas are a pointless insult to your users.
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[11:38:15] <Ge0rG> I could live with captchas to external users sending me spam, but only as a workaround for the inability to delay stanzas in mod_firewall
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[11:39:02] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, actually I don't care about botnets and spam because I run a private service - you and the other XSF guys should know what's best
[11:39:57] <Ge0rG> marc: "the other XSF guys" might disagree with me, but I don't care.
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[11:40:57] <marc> Ge0rG, doesn't sound like we can make fast progress with this XEP ;)
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[11:46:37] <Ge0rG> marc: the main question that remains for me is: data forms or ad-hoc ibr extension?
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[11:47:02] <Ge0rG> So far, only Jonas reacted to my rationale
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[11:47:38] <Ge0rG> I wish for some more feedback from the council members that raised concerns with ad-hoc ibr
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[11:48:12] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, to me it looks like data forms are the best solution but I don't have much experience with the XMPP internals
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[11:48:31] <marc> And I thought the IBR data forms are exactly for such extensions
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[11:49:01] <Ge0rG> marc: data forms are well suited to ask the user questions
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[11:49:54] <marc> Ge0rG, actually I don't get why you're against data forms
[11:50:18] <Ge0rG> Less so to mix hidden and visible fields
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[11:58:57] <marc> Ge0rG, okay, I'll stop working on the implementation until I get some feedback from @standards how we proceed
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[12:02:56] <marc> Unfortunately, from next month on I won't have that much time
[12:04:31] <Ge0rG> marc: I wonder how big the needed changes are afterwards
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[12:05:00] <marc> Ge0rG: depends on how the general feedback is
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[12:05:20] <marc> There is no feedback at all except from Jonas and you
[12:05:37] <Ge0rG> marc: I mean to switch between ibr and data forms
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[12:06:43] <marc> Ge0rG: not that big... I already changed it ;)
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[12:07:19] <Ge0rG> marc: then you can just go on implementing everything else
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[12:12:04] <Zash> {jabber🇮🇶register}token?
[12:12:07] <Zash> argh
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[12:12:54] <Ge0rG> 🤣
[12:13:08] <jonasw> marc: yes for the node name change
[12:13:19] <Ge0rG> Zash: I've put an updated version of the plugin online
[12:13:24] <Zash> Inventing new elements in an existing namespace seems weird to me
[12:13:32] <Zash> "online"
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[12:13:45] <Ge0rG> Zash: same URL
[12:13:46] <Zash> Ge0rG: Where did you publish this?
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[12:14:28] <Ge0rG> Zash: just search in your history for the random pastebin id
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[12:14:41] <Zash> \o/
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[12:16:56] <marc> jonasw: okay
[12:18:13] <Guus> but yeah, first order of business is to make sure that the certificates that are used actually cover the server host name
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[12:18:29] <Guus> (which is why I got started working on certs in Openfire in the first place)
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[12:18:53] <Guus> I'm thinking that you locally have both a proper certificate, and match your xmpp domain name to your server FQDN.
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[12:19:00] <Guus> that saves you some trouble :)
[12:19:07] <Guus> hey, what?
[12:19:14] <Guus> hargh, my tabs changed :)
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[12:19:23] <Guus> disregard my last text :)
[12:19:44] <Ge0rG> Certificate verification is an arcane witchcraft. Don't get into it if you want to prevent embarrassing vulnerabilities
[12:20:26] <Ge0rG> Speaking from experience
[12:20:33] <Zash> It is known
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[12:40:37] <marc> jonasw, on top of my pending change?
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[12:58:51] <Ge0rG> Zash: https://op-co.de/tmp/emoji_ascii.py (returned to a PC now)
[12:58:58] <Zash> Thanks
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[13:00:30] <Ge0rG> (same URL as always, I was just mocking you for putting everything into ungreppable pastebins; sorry)
[13:00:33] <jonasw> marc, better not
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[13:00:39] <jonasw> marc, Ge0rG seems to not like that change :)
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[13:01:16] <Ge0rG> marc: your PR contained both the error fixes and a change from adhoc-IBR to data-forms, right?
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[13:04:10] <marc> Ge0rG: yes
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[13:04:38] <marc> jonasw: how to handle the version number then?
[13:04:53] <jonasw> marc, don’t, that’s the editors job in case of doubt
[13:05:23] <marc> jonasw: also no description?
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[13:06:19] <jonasw> marc, make descriptive commit message s:)
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[13:07:05] <marc> jonasw: okay
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[13:20:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't like one of the two changes that were part of the same commit
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[13:20:49] <jonasw> Ge0rG, true
[13:20:50] <Ge0rG> jonasw: but please don't get me started about commit chains depending on dead ends
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[13:21:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: irregardless of what I like, I will bow to Council's decision
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[13:21:25] <jonasw> what is councils decision on this experimental xep?
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[13:22:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it was accepted as experimental with some IBR data-forms sentiment
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[13:25:57] <Maranda> About games using xmpp for chat, Perfect World Entertainment/Cryptic Studios use XMPP for their out of game to in-game chat interface from like 2011
[13:26:18] <Maranda> (e.g. Star Trek Online)
[13:26:33] <Maranda> (Neverwinter)
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[13:31:00] <vanitasvitae> I like the fact, that a Star Trek game is using XMPP given the fact, that all species in the star trek universe can call each others ships without any issues
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[13:32:07] <Ge0rG> Kev: so who is _technically able_ to post on @xmpp twitter?
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[13:33:19] <Zash> I remember mention of Twitter account setup such that people could be given access easily. How did that go?
[13:34:26] <Ge0rG> Guus: I didn't volunteer because I plainly lack the time
[13:35:44] <Guus> As nicely illustrated by answering after 2 1/2 hours
[13:36:04] <Ge0rG> Guus: sorry :(
[13:36:10] <Guus> no worries :)
[13:37:47] <Ge0rG> Guus: do you know who can twitter out things?
[13:37:57] <Ge0rG> Ah, there it was already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16445365
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[13:54:02] <marc> jonasw, done in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/592
[13:54:17] <marc> Oh damn, I should adapt the examples :D
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[13:54:43] <jonasw> yeah
[13:54:44] <jonasw> do that :)
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[13:56:02] <marc> okay, done
[13:56:03] <jonasw> lgtm
[13:57:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I can’t seem to find councils statemetn on easy user onboarding
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[13:57:59] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I wish council minutes were better greppable.
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[13:58:17] <Ge0rG> Can't we have links to the council MUC from the XEP history? :D
[13:58:42] <jonasw> hah
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[14:00:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: Dave's comment is in the lines after http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2018-01-17#16:06:45
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[14:01:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: Kev commented on-list:
> Not blocking this (+1), but the addition of fields into IBR seems wrong - don’t we have xep4 in IBR for this reason?
[14:01:32] <jonasw> ok
[14:01:42] <jonasw> so I should be merging the PR against 401 and you delayed that for no reason? ;-)
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[14:01:55] <Ge0rG> https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-January/034152.html is the link
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[14:02:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes. I'm an asshole :P
[14:02:56] <jonasw> m(
[14:03:02] <jonasw> I know, zinid said that
[14:03:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: seriously though, I provided my rationale for adding fields into IBR on-list, and I hoped that Dave and Kev would comment on that.
[14:03:26] <jonasw> Ge0rG, well, okay. so should we be waiting longer?
[14:03:30] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes please.
[14:03:35] <jonasw> gaaah just say that! :P
[14:03:39] <jonasw> you wasted a minute of my time :P
[14:03:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I what? Why?
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[14:04:16] <jonasw> because of thinking on whether or not to merge this now and hunting references and so on :P
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[14:08:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: maybe data-forms have an advantage for server developers, where a single hook API can be exposed for all registration-related things. I don't know.
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[14:08:24] <Ge0rG> All I know is how it's the easiest for a client.
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[14:09:22] <jonasw> I find it useful to have extensibility here
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[14:21:07] <Ge0rG> Do we have something for hidden fields in data forms?
[14:21:48] <jonasw> type hidden?
[14:21:51] <jonasw> like FORM_TYPE is?
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[14:27:54] <Ge0rG> https://www.quora.com/What-technology-does-the-iOS-Apple-Push-Notification-Service-APNS-use-to-maintain-a-persistent-connection-with-each-device-to-receive-such-fast-push-notifications
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[14:29:23] <Ge0rG> jonasw: like field type hidden, but to be filled out by the client
[14:30:02] <jonasw> Ge0rG,
> hidden The field is not shown to the form-submitting entity, but instead is returned with the form. The form-submitting entity SHOULD NOT modify the value of a hidden field, but MAY do so if such behavior is defined for the "using protocol".
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[14:30:07] <jonasw> so exactly like field type hidden?
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[14:30:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I was just going to post that quote, yes!
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[15:04:49] <SaltyBones> so, just in case you don't have it on your radar yet
[15:04:55] <SaltyBones> GDPR will be in effect from may on
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[15:05:00] <SaltyBones> GDPR will be in effect from May on
[15:05:21] <jonasw> I still have no idea what that means.
[15:05:30] <SaltyBones> I just attended a talk about it and tried to pull out of the guys nose what I have to do.
[15:05:36] <SaltyBones> And the answer is definitely not nothing.
[15:05:48] <jonasw> what is the answer then?
[15:06:00] <SaltyBones> In fact it is apparently so far away from nothing that it can only be described as "it's complicated" and he pretty much suggested that I shut down.
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[15:06:08] <jonasw> "you"?
[15:06:29] <SaltyBones> Well, to not complicate things I only told him that I am running an e-mail server for family and friends...
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[15:07:24] <SaltyBones> And apparently that means you actually have to do a bunch of things that somehow magically conform to the legalese of risk analysis and all the other umpteen steps I just heard about...
[15:08:50] <SaltyBones> I think nobody knows what it will mean in practice yet. The documents are complex and contain the usual, excessive amount of weaselwords.
[15:09:10] <jonasw> can someone not affected sue me?
[15:09:13] <jonasw> if not, I don’t care.
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[15:11:38] <SaltyBones> I have no clue. He at some point seemed to answer this question with yes and later with no. :p
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[15:12:01] <SaltyBones> I just wanted to mention it.
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[15:12:18] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: I'm a professional GDPR consultant. I can support you at only 175€/hr.
[15:13:23] <Zash> Is "Self-host in your own home" still the best way to avoid all legalities?
[15:13:48] <SaltyBones> Ask Ge0rG! :D
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[15:15:09] <Ge0rG> Zash: no. "Do not store other people's data" is the best way.
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[15:15:41] <Zash> Good thing we made MAM mandatory!
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[15:16:03] <Ge0rG> Zash: you might understand now why I insist on https://prosody.im/issues/867 so much.
[15:16:43] <Zash> Ge0rG: I'd probably go with disabling it entirely until explicitly enabled via prefs if I were me
[15:17:05] <Ge0rG> Zash: are you you?
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[15:17:24] <Zash> Not sure
[15:17:43] <Ge0rG> I'm sure I'm not you.
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[17:08:07] <Zash> Uh, this doesn't look right: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html#registrar-formtypes-register
[17:08:33] <Zash> Is that the same as the captcha from above it?
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