Tuesday, February 27, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:03:13] <edhelas> I'm reading the Standards ML, before putting Bookmark to Final would it maybe be wise to update it, like to clarify which method is prefered for storing them ?
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[09:04:32] <flow> edhelas, isn't that done in xep48 § 3. ?
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[13:26:42] <marc> hm, if matrix requires an additional push protocol (GCM for Android), is it not possible to use riot without Google services installed?
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[13:27:13] <Ge0rG> marc: AFAIU it falls back to polling the server.
[13:27:17] <jonasw> marc, I think it is, but that ^
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[13:27:36] <marc> yes, okay :D
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[13:28:39] <Ge0rG> Life is great, isn't it?
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[13:30:28] <marc> Ge0rG, it just means to me that it sucks and has a big disadvantage in comparison to XMPP :D
[13:30:51] <Ge0rG> marc: what did you expect from HTTP? WebSockets?
[13:31:54] <daniel> Well that's what signal does
[13:32:08] <daniel> And rocket.chat
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[13:33:00] <marc> daniel, signal requires GCM and if not available falls back to polling?
[13:33:56] <daniel> marc: no. It falls back to websockets
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[13:34:28] <daniel> The well that was signal does was a response to what Ge0rG said
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[13:35:01] <SaltyBones> should it be obvious why websockets works?
[13:35:43] <marc> websockets allow permanent connections, right?
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[13:37:44] <daniel> Yeah using websockets is reasonable
[13:38:06] <Zash> I wouldn't count on "permanent"
[13:38:13] <daniel> Compared to polling http that is
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[13:38:59] <SaltyBones> oh weird..so the os does the connection part for you and just gives you some magical permanent socket?
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[13:39:29] <Zash> If that worked, everyone would be doing it
[13:39:40] <Zash> I imagine it has the same restrictions on mobile OSes as plain TCP
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[13:46:52] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:47:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:47:54] <Ge0rG> Zash: but better firewall piercing capabilities
[13:48:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:51:09] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[13:52:13] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:52:16] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[13:52:23] *** Alex shows as "online"
[13:52:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:54:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:54:19] *** Guus has left the room
[13:54:19] *** Guus has left the room
[13:55:07] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:55:22] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:55:47] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:55:49] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:55:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:56:00] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:56:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:56:05] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:56:10] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:56:17] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:57:09] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:57:23] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[13:57:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:57:53] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:57:55] *** jjrh has left the room
[13:58:08] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[13:59:38] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[14:00:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:02:21] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:06:00] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:06:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:07:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:08:45] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:09:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:10:02] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:10:44] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:11:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:11:51] *** lskdjf has left the room
[14:11:58] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[14:13:09] *** lumi shows as "online"
[14:13:18] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:13:27] *** jubalh has joined the room
[14:14:16] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[14:15:48] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:21:44] *** daniel has left the room
[14:21:54] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:22:20] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[14:22:48] *** Alex has left the room
[14:23:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:25:17] *** ThurahT has joined the room
[14:28:44] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:28:52] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:28:52] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:28:58] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:28:58] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[14:30:24] *** dwd has left the room
[14:30:51] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:30:53] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:31:08] <moparisthebest> but only over HTTPS, at which point, you can also just use TLS on 443
[14:32:28] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:32:36] *** j.r has joined the room
[14:35:00] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:35:00] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[14:36:16] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[14:36:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:37:48] *** Holger shows as "online"
[14:38:27] *** Holger has left the room
[14:38:44] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:39:47] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:41:41] *** dwd has left the room
[14:45:36] *** daniel has left the room
[14:45:39] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:46:06] *** Alex has left the room
[14:48:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:48:10] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[14:48:55] *** Alex has joined the room
[14:49:34] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[14:49:46] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:49:54] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[14:50:05] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:50:08] *** j.r has left the room
[14:50:10] *** j.r has joined the room
[14:50:22] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[14:50:22] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:50:58] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[14:51:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:52:22] *** Martin shows as "online"
[14:52:26] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:52:33] *** Martin has left the room
[14:53:13] *** daniel has left the room
[14:53:44] *** daniel has joined the room
[14:53:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[14:54:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:54:14] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[14:54:21] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:54:23] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[14:54:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:55:00] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[14:55:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:56:16] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[14:56:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:56:42] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:59:26] *** jere has left the room
[14:59:55] *** jere has joined the room
[15:00:37] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:01:59] *** j.r has joined the room
[15:02:00] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[15:04:20] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[15:04:23] *** daniel has left the room
[15:04:27] *** daniel has joined the room
[15:04:46] *** Martin has joined the room
[15:04:47] *** Martin shows as "online"
[15:05:48] *** andy has joined the room
[15:10:23] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:10:33] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[15:10:43] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[15:11:23] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[15:11:33] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[15:12:43] *** jubalh has joined the room
[15:12:43] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:17:33] *** andy has left the room
[15:18:18] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:18:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:20:19] *** Fabian shows as "online"
[15:20:25] *** jubalh has joined the room
[15:20:50] *** jubalh has left the room
[15:20:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:20:54] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:22:52] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:24:06] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[15:24:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:24:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:24:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:24:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:24:31] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:24:58] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:24:58] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:25:18] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[15:25:19] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:25:24] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:26:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:26:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:26:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:26:49] *** Fabian shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:27:09] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:27:17] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[15:27:46] *** Maranda has left the room
[15:28:00] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[15:29:07] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:29:53] *** Fabian shows as "online"
[15:31:34] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:31:49] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:32:06] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[15:33:22] *** pep. shows as "online"
[15:33:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:35:21] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[15:35:21] *** winfried shows as "online"
[15:35:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:36:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:37:05] *** dwd has left the room
[15:38:08] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[15:38:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:40:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:42:26] *** daniel has left the room
[15:42:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:42:29] *** daniel has joined the room
[15:44:14] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[15:45:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:46:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:48:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:48:16] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[15:48:19] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[15:48:49] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[15:49:54] *** marmistrz has joined the room
[15:51:31] *** Fabian shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:51:38] *** rtq3 has left the room
[15:52:05] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:52:25] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:53:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:53:43] *** Fabian shows as "online"
[15:56:37] *** lumi shows as "online"
[16:00:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:01:03] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[16:01:50] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:02:57] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[16:04:30] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[16:05:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:05:38] *** Guus has left the room
[16:05:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:05:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:06:18] *** Kev shows as "online"
[16:10:00] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:11:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:11:21] *** Guus has left the room
[16:11:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:11:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:12:32] *** Guus has left the room
[16:12:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:12:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:14:29] *** Nekit has left the room
[16:14:29] *** Nekit has joined the room
[16:16:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[16:16:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[16:18:18] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:19:03] *** goffi has left the room
[16:19:20] *** goffi has joined the room
[16:20:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:21:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:22:28] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:22:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:22:33] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:23:38] *** Link Mauve shows as "online"
[16:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:27:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:27:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:28:18] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:28:30] *** marc has left the room
[16:28:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:29:25] *** dwd has left the room
[16:30:05] *** Fabian has left the room
[16:30:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:31:27] *** Seve/SouL has left the room
[16:31:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:31:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:33:26] *** Nekit has left the room
[16:34:13] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[16:34:49] *** Nekit has joined the room
[16:35:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:35:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:36:18] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:36:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:36:19] *** dwd has left the room
[16:36:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:37:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:38:04] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[16:38:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:38:26] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:40:44] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[16:41:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:41:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:41:41] *** dwd has left the room
[16:41:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:42:19] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:42:46] *** jere has joined the room
[16:43:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:43:57] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:43:59] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:44:40] *** ludo has left the room
[16:44:43] *** ludo has joined the room
[16:44:58] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:45:02] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:45:12] *** daniel has left the room
[16:45:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:46:10] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:46:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:46:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[16:46:33] *** ralphm has joined the room
[16:47:41] *** dwd has left the room
[16:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:48:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:48:26] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:48:49] *** Maranda has left the room
[16:48:59] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:50:44] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[16:50:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:51:21] *** Maranda has left the room
[16:51:28] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:52:01] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:53:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:53:41] *** dwd has left the room
[16:55:54] *** Maranda has left the room
[16:56:17] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:56:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:57:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:58:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:59:37] *** Syndace has joined the room
[17:00:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:00:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:00:28] *** Maranda has left the room
[17:00:55] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:00:56] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:01:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:01:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:02:04] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:04:00] *** daniel has left the room
[17:04:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:04:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:04:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:04:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:04:22] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:04:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:04:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:04:36] *** daniel has left the room
[17:05:01] *** valo has joined the room
[17:05:37] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:05:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[17:07:05] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:07:05] *** Guus has left the room
[17:07:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:09:51] *** marc shows as "online"
[17:09:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:11:39] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:11:39] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[17:15:23] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:15:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:16:12] *** lovetox has joined the room
[17:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[17:20:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:20:15] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:21:46] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:22:00] *** daniel has left the room
[17:22:07] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:22:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:22:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:22:25] *** Martin has left the room
[17:24:14] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[17:24:22] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:24:28] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:24:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:24:45] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[17:24:46] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:24:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:24:52] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:25:10] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:25:36] *** marc has left the room
[17:25:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:26:54] *** daniel has left the room
[17:27:48] *** Alex has left the room
[17:28:06] *** Alex has joined the room
[17:29:53] *** Maranda has left the room
[17:30:06] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:30:08] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:30:56] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:31:34] *** jubalh has left the room
[17:32:56] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:33:10] *** dwd has left the room
[17:33:45] *** ludo has joined the room
[17:35:41] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:36:53] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:37:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:38:22] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[17:39:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:40:21] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[17:40:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:40:55] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[17:42:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:42:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:42:10] *** dwd has left the room
[17:42:12] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:42:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:42:50] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:47:09] *** Maranda has left the room
[17:47:28] *** daniel has left the room
[17:47:29] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:47:33] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:47:33] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:48:10] *** goffi has left the room
[17:50:32] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[17:50:54] *** goffi has joined the room
[17:51:00] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[17:51:32] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[17:51:33] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:51:43] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[17:51:51] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[17:53:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:53:00] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:53:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:54:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:54:36] *** dwd has left the room
[17:56:15] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:56:41] *** dwd has left the room
[17:57:53] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[17:58:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:00:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:00:14] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:00:47] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[18:02:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:02:49] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:02:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:03:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:03:12] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[18:03:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:03:22] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:03:41] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:04:13] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:04:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:05:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:05:36] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:05:57] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[18:05:57] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:06:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:07:03] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[18:07:50] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:08:02] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:08:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:08:41] *** dwd has left the room
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[18:10:15] <Tobias> https://twitter.com/ivucica/status/968538897604075521
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[18:11:41] <jonasw> Seve, ^ might be of interest to you
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[18:12:51] <SaltyBones> I like vvoip
[18:12:56] <SaltyBones> had not seend that before
[18:13:05] <SaltyBones> unfortunately the distinction is lost in pronounciation
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[19:00:46] <Alex> will start our Q1 member meeting in 3 minutes
[19:01:12] <jonasw> uh
[19:01:14] <jonasw> today’s the day
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[19:02:05] <moparisthebest> slipped my votes in just now, right under the buzzer
[19:02:37] <Alex> ;-)
[19:02:53] <Alex> okay
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[19:02:58] *Alex bangs the gavel
[19:03:30] <Alex> here is our agenda for today:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2018
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[19:03:47] <Alex> sorry here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-02-27
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[19:04:08] <Alex> let me update the first section and add the vote which just came in
[19:04:20] <moparisthebest> (sorry)
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[19:04:45] <Alex> not a problem
[19:04:53] <Alex> 1) Call for Quorum
[19:05:08] <Alex> as you can see 32 members voted via memberbot
[19:05:15] <Alex> so we have a quorum
[19:05:24] <Alex> 2) Items Subject to a Vote
[19:05:46] <Alex> new and returning members, you can see all the applicantions here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2018
[19:05:55] <Alex> 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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[19:06:08] <jonasw> Alex, did pep. reach out to you?
[19:06:12] <jonasw> or did you receive his attempts to reach out?
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[19:06:24] <Alex> anybody here who has not voted yet, and want to vote in teh meeting?
[19:06:32] <jonasw> did the MUC just die or is it just me?
[19:06:37] <Alex> jonasw: I don't think so. At least I do not remember
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[19:07:02] <jonasw> Alex, he tried to reach you sevearl times since memberbot didn’t talk to him :(
[19:07:17] <jonasw> he also said that he probably wouldn’t be able to make this meeting though :(
[19:07:34] <Alex> my client blocks all messaged from unsubscribed users silently, becuase I get tons of spam
[19:07:42] <jonasw> ah I see
[19:08:07] <Alex> I he is around we can fix now and get his vote in
[19:08:10] <jonasw> I told him to try email though
[19:08:25] <Alex> otherwise we fix for the next voting period
[19:08:55] <Ge0rG> Alex [20:07]:
> my client blocks all messaged from unsubscribed users silently, becuase I get tons of spam
This policy fails to work for people with public roles.
[19:09:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, he accepts subscriptions though
[19:09:11] <jonasw> also probably not the right time to discuss this
[19:09:59] *Alex starts counting now, for working on the results
[19:10:01] <Ge0rG> Right, sorry.
[19:10:10] <Alex> looks like nobody wants to vote
[19:10:43] <Alex> Ge0rG: lets put it under otehr business and discuss at the end of our meeting
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[19:13:21] <Alex> 4) Announcement of Voting Results
[19:13:47] <Alex> when you reload the page at:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-02-27#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

you can see the results
[19:14:00] <Alex> all new and returning members are accepted
[19:14:09] <Alex> congrats to everyone
[19:14:15] <jonasw> \o/
[19:14:29] <Alex> 5) Any Other Business?
[19:15:01] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that’s your cue
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[19:15:34] <Alex> Ge0rG: I use XMPP since the very early days when Jers first server came out. my jabber.org Jid is probably on every spammer list, and its a huge pain for me these days
[19:15:43] <moparisthebest> wouldn't a better system than bugging Alex just be to automatically import all member JIDs into memberbot ?
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[19:15:52] <Alex> sometimes I log in and have 100 spams in the morning
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[19:16:27] <jonasw> Alex, ugh
[19:16:35] <moparisthebest> and, while we have a database of member JIDs, tie that into the wiki and use xmpp for auth, slightly different topic though :)
[19:16:45] <jonasw> I fell your pain, even though probably 1.5 orders of magnitude less worse
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[19:17:54] <Ge0rG> Alex: I'm blocking 99% of spam messages with some simple heuristics, and I had to implement "reject all requests" against presence spam
[19:17:55] <Alex> because of the server crash we had last year I lost the whitellist
[19:18:08] <Guus> Can we give someone else privs to add people to memberbot?
[19:18:24] <Guus> So that we don't depend solely on Alex ?
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[19:18:35] <Alex> but usually I add all new members to the list, and when people contact me by email or xmpp it takes only some seconds to add them to teh whitelist
[19:18:43] <Ge0rG> https://yaxim.org/blog/2017/12/22/spam-reduction-on-yax-dot-im/
[19:18:49] <moparisthebest> we have a list of all XSF members surely right?
[19:18:54] <Alex> memberbot is pretty smart and support xdata commands for administration
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[19:18:58] <moparisthebest> can't memberbot just always use that list?
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[19:19:21] <Alex> Guus: memberbot also has a list of admins IIRC
[19:19:45] <Alex> Happy to add someone else who can execute the commands and add peopel to teh whitelist
[19:19:54] <Ge0rG> Jabber.org being de facto unmaintained doesn't help much, I suppose
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[19:20:10] <Alex> its just executing 2 coommands
1) submit the Jid
2) reload the whitelist
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[19:20:22] <Guus> Alex: add me if you want
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[19:21:31] <Alex> Guus: done
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[19:22:12] <Alex> restarting the bot, you can check if commands are working for you
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[19:22:50] <Guus> Alex: later. Kid just got sock
[19:22:54] <Guus> Sick
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[19:23:00] <Guus> Thanks though
[19:23:03] <Guus> Afk
[19:23:07] <SaltyBones> Ah, I thought he was a house elf
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[19:23:30] <Alex> moparisthebest: jave seen this post, and its on my todo list to add this to my personal prosody server, but my main Jid is still on jabber.org
[19:23:51] <Alex> I mean Ge0rG ;-)
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[19:24:26] <Alex> but we have to solve this SPAM problem in general, it could kill our technology when its getting worse
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[19:25:08] <jonasw> yeah
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[19:26:10] *SaltyBones never gets any spam and feels left out.
[19:26:17] <jonasw> SaltyBones, you can have mine
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[19:26:27] <jonasw> Alex, sent you a subscription request
[19:26:38] <moparisthebest> I didn't until I became XSF member and XEP author
[19:26:46] <moparisthebest> but that happened around the same time, so I don't know which or both
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[19:27:16] <Alex> jonasw: accepted, becuase teh Jid did not conatain 3 numbers ;-)
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[19:31:28] <Alex> 6) Formal Adjournment
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[19:31:34] <Alex> I motion that we adjourn
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[19:31:44] <jonasw> seems reasonable :)
[19:31:44] <Kev> Seconded.
[19:31:54] *Alex bangs the gavel
[19:31:59] <Alex> thanks guys
[19:32:01] <Kev> Thanks Alex.
[19:32:01] <jonasw> thanks for doing the work and again congrats to all (re-)accepted folks
[19:32:35] <Alex> we send out mail to memberslist tomorrow in the AM, and create the applications page for Q2 ASAP
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[19:35:06] <SamWhited> I was getting a lot of spam for a while, but it was all from 3 or 4 domains that had IBR enabled so I blocked those and now I don't get any. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[19:35:17] <SamWhited> I don't think I ever got the presence spam that some people get though, so maybe I'm just not on the right lists.
[19:35:21] <jonasw> contextswitch: how does XEP-0401 interoperate with the European GDPR thingy? if an offering server provides MAM etc. it would have to acquire explicit consent. Or maybe we need to change clients to make consent to MAM explicit and show the privacy policy of the server beforehands? That would probably require some protocol.
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[19:36:07] <j.r> I haven't had spam on any of my accounts
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[19:36:44] <Zash> I got one the other day
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[19:37:01] <Kev> I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but I still think that signing up for services through web interfaces makes sense, rather than doing it inband.
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[19:37:22] <Zash> Why not both?
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[19:39:27] <Zash> We have protocol to register inband, or to redirect to a website from inband.
[19:40:26] <Alex> the spam I get since the last ~4 weeks is always from different domains. Some of those domains look very weird and like they just get automatically created only for this purpose
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[19:40:59] <Alex> sometimes its from "well known" domains which still have IBR open, this is a very low percentage
[19:41:09] <moparisthebest> do you have strict s2s requiring encryption and valid certs turned on?
[19:41:22] <moparisthebest> I think I'd get a lot more spam judging by my failed s2s logs
[19:41:39] <Alex> moparisthebest: its on my jabber.org Jid
[19:41:40] <moparisthebest> today for instance: Establishing a secure connection from rosolina.estate to burtrum.org failed
[19:41:53] <moparisthebest> what are the chances that's a legit xmpp server? (I haven't checked hehe)
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[19:42:16] <moparisthebest> well does jabber.org require valid s2s certs and TLS ?
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[19:42:45] <Kev> No. Requires TLS, but allows dialback.
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[19:43:20] <moparisthebest> how many legitimate servers don't have valid TLS certs nowadays with letsencrypt?
[19:43:30] <jonasw> I run one
[19:43:40] <jonasw> because I couldn’t be bothered to set up letsencrypt for that thing
[19:43:43] <moparisthebest> I mean illegitimate ones can easly get valid TLS certs from letsencrypt too
[19:43:50] <jonasw> it’s still CACert
[19:43:55] <moparisthebest> but, I'd say turn it on, force bad admins to stop being lazy
[19:43:55] <jonasw> I actually keep it renewed
[19:43:57] <moparisthebest> :P
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[19:44:04] <jonasw> *shrugh*
[19:44:07] <jonasw> I’d simply turn off that service instead.
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[19:44:28] <moparisthebest> it has to be harder for you to renew CACert once than set up letsencrypt
[19:44:34] <jonasw> moparisthebest, no
[19:44:37] <jonasw> in fact it’s not
[19:44:41] <jonasw> letsencrypt is tedious for XMPP
[19:44:42] <moparisthebest> besides CACert has always been useless, just self-sign
[19:44:48] <jonasw> the only way to do it right is with DNS Challenge
[19:44:51] <jonasw> and that’s it’s own ratsnest
[19:44:58] <jonasw> *shrug*
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[19:45:03] <Alex> jonasw: agree
[19:45:04] <Guus> jonasw: indees
[19:45:06] <jonasw> CACert takes the load of managing signatures off of my head :)
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[19:45:17] <moparisthebest> it's not, you can use DNS, but I also find it rare that you can't just listen on HTTP
[19:45:20] <jonasw> something something CA signature serial I have no idea what I’m even talking about
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[19:45:23] <SaltyBones> jonasw, switch to letsencrypt
[19:45:31] <jonasw> moparisthebest, it’s just wrong to listen on HTTP for chat.domain.example
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[19:45:34] <jonasw> simple as that.
[19:45:36] <SaltyBones> it is easier to maintain and they have certificates that don't use md5...
[19:45:37] <jonasw> it’s not an HTTP service.
[19:45:41] <Alex> on my personal server I renew the lets sncrypt cert every 3 month and it sucks
[19:45:45] <jonasw> I’m not even going to set A/AAAA records up for that.
[19:46:04] <Alex> on my k8s clusters with kube lego its awesome
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[19:46:26] <SaltyBones> Alex, really? I just did it three days ago. "certbot renew" and restarting/reloading a few services...that's it
[19:46:31] <Alex> maybe we need to invest a bit more in letsencrypt modules for all mayor servers
[19:46:37] <jonasw> yeah
[19:46:41] <jonasw> with DNS challenge please.
[19:46:56] <jonasw> I’d really love to have a thing which just implements a very trivial DNS server
[19:47:00] <moparisthebest> Alex, you manually renew them every 3 months?
[19:47:02] <jonasw> and then just delegate to it
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[19:47:21] <Alex> SaltyBones: I host HTTP on a different server, my DNS provider cannot be automated, so I always have to add TXT records manual for validation which sucks
[19:47:34] <moparisthebest> jonasw, why is it wrong to listen on chat.domain.example and only serve 1 thing? :/
[19:47:35] <SaltyBones> ah...yeah that's a pain :D
[19:47:45] <SaltyBones> I just have apache vhosts for imap and jabber
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[19:47:55] <jonasw> moparisthebest, because it is not a friggin HTTP service.
[19:48:00] <Kev> And then you move the certs from the http server to the xmpp one? :)
[19:48:12] <jonasw> Alex, lovely :<
[19:48:26] <jonasw> Alex, consider hosting a tiny pdns instance with RFCsoandso support (that DNS update thin>)
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[19:48:36] <SaltyBones> Kev, that's why it's a pain if the servers are different. Although, given http_upload I suppose a letsencrypt module for servers would not be absurd...
[19:48:37] <jonasw> and delegating the _acme-challenge subdomains to it
[19:48:41] <jonasw> I do that, it works
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[19:49:05] <moparisthebest> no Kev , I just have this nginx config on all my servers:
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[19:49:08] <moparisthebest> server {
listen 0.0.0.0:80;
listen [::]:80;
location ~ "^/\.well-known/acme-challenge/([-_a-zA-Z0-9]+)$" {
default_type text/plain;
return 200 "$1.YOUR_LETSENCRYPT_ACCOUNT_KEY_HASH";
}
}
[19:49:20] <moparisthebest> and all letsencrypt challenges pass without any communication between servers
[19:49:23] <moparisthebest> easy and done
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[19:51:04] <Alex> moparisthebest: it would be easy when I would have a subdomain for my XMPP server, or a domain which I don't use on other servers
[19:51:29] <SaltyBones> wait..isn't there something wrong with this? that allows me to get certs for your machine, no?
[19:51:39] <moparisthebest> SaltyBones, only if you have my letsencrypt account key
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[19:51:47] <Kev> moparisthebest: So that on the HTTP server is enough to be able to generate a cert on the XMPP server?
[19:51:49] <moparisthebest> which is the same on all servers
[19:51:52] <SaltyBones> Oh, is that included in the cert?
[19:51:53] <moparisthebest> yes Kev
[19:52:24] <SaltyBones> Because I can just say "letsencrypt gimme cert for $yourdomain" and it will go to your domain and check if the file is there, think that it is, give me the cert...no?
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[19:54:08] <moparisthebest> SaltyBones, this part return 200 "$1.YOUR_LETSENCRYPT_ACCOUNT_KEY_HASH";
[19:54:26] <moparisthebest> letsencrypt expects it to return the hash of the requesting key in there
[19:54:38] <SaltyBones> kk
[19:54:42] <moparisthebest> you'd have to have that key for the challenge to pass
[19:55:03] <SaltyBones> so I actually need to prove that I have a key with that hash?
[19:55:05] <moparisthebest> so if you hack into my server and steal that key you can get certs for my domains, but, if you hack into a server that's true anyway
[19:55:07] <moparisthebest> yep
[19:55:15] <SaltyBones> okay
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[19:56:34] <Alex> this is exactly how all the big web providers handle it in their apache or nginx configurations
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[19:57:45] <Alex> and part of my problem, because I use PAAS for my HTTP servers, they don't allow me to control the ./sell-known/ route :( The automatcially handly it with their key always
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[20:30:25] <moparisthebest> ah yea then you have to use the DNS challenge
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[20:31:21] <moparisthebest> this works perfect in my setup because I have 2 http servers, one for burtrum.org and one for moparisthebest.com, and 1 xmpp server that serves both, so it's nice they don't need to communicate and each can get the proper certs automatically
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[20:34:44] <Kev> Which only works if you're prepared to set up 'bad' A records for your things like pubsub, MUC etc. pointing to the HTTP server.
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[20:36:40] <moparisthebest> I guess, all mine just redirect you to the right domain anyway, don't see the harm
[20:37:12] <moparisthebest> but if you don't want to mess with it, DNS challenge
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[20:37:30] <daniel> what clients do support micro blogging?
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[22:45:47] <vanitasvitae> daniel: afaik the mangosta android app does
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[23:06:47] <SaltyBones> doesn't movim also support it?
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[23:54:17] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm on the phone."
[23:54:31] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:54:32] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:54:48] *** ralphm has joined the room
[23:57:17] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:57:32] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:58:27] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:58:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:59:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room