Wednesday, February 28, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
February
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
      1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
       
             
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:02:34] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[00:02:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:02:38] *** Guus has left the room
[00:02:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:02:41] *** dwd has left the room
[00:04:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:07:20] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[00:10:47] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[00:11:57] *** jubalh has left the room
[00:12:22] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:14:19] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[00:14:24] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:14:53] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:15:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:15:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:15:27] *** dwd has left the room
[00:16:10] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[00:17:13] *** ralphm has left the room
[00:17:27] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[00:17:40] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[00:20:27] *** ralphm has joined the room
[00:20:56] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "ZZZZzzzzzZZZZZ"
[00:21:16] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[00:21:43] *** efrit has left the room
[00:21:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:21:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:24:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:25:05] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:29:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:30:09] *** dwd has left the room
[00:30:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:38:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:39:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:40:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:40:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:40:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:40:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[00:40:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[00:40:52] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:42:19] *** Guus has left the room
[00:42:33] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:42:52] *** ralphm has left the room
[00:45:02] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:46:07] *** ralphm has joined the room
[00:48:02] *** dwd shows as "online"
[00:50:41] *** dwd has left the room
[00:52:13] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[00:52:13] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[00:54:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[00:54:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[00:57:13] *** Guus has left the room
[00:57:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:57:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:01:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:01:33] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:01:36] *** Guus has left the room
[01:01:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:01:40] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:01:53] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm watching a movie."
[01:02:36] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:02:45] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:03:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:03:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:03:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:03:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:05:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[01:06:37] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:08:13] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:08:21] *** ralphm has left the room
[01:09:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[01:09:45] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[01:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:12:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:12:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:13:48] *** ralphm has joined the room
[01:17:54] *** Guus has left the room
[01:17:55] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:17:56] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:19:46] *** ovo has left the room
[01:21:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:25:39] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[01:30:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:30:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:30:33] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[01:30:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:30:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:33:34] *** SamWhited has left the room
[01:36:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:36:19] *** Guus has left the room
[01:38:10] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[01:38:12] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:40:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:48:01] *** ralphm has left the room
[01:50:38] *** dwd shows as "online"
[01:52:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:52:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:53:41] *** dwd has left the room
[01:56:08] *** ralphm has joined the room
[01:57:49] *** Maranda has left the room
[01:57:55] *** Maranda has joined the room
[01:58:41] *** Maranda shows as "away"
[02:00:19] *** Guus has left the room
[02:12:49] *** Guus has left the room
[02:12:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:12:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:15:19] *** Guus has left the room
[02:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[02:18:33] *** ralphm has left the room
[02:21:48] *** ralphm has joined the room
[02:34:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:34:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:34:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[02:35:44] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:36:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:36:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:37:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[02:38:35] *** jere has joined the room
[02:42:50] *** Maranda has left the room
[02:43:04] *** Maranda has joined the room
[02:43:05] *** Maranda shows as "away"
[02:46:50] *** dwd shows as "online"
[02:47:29] *** ralphm has joined the room
[02:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[02:50:09] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[02:50:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:50:40] *** Maranda has left the room
[02:50:47] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[02:51:01] *** Maranda has left the room
[02:51:42] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[02:52:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:53:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:53:26] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[02:59:03] *** jere has left the room
[02:59:25] *** jere has joined the room
[03:00:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:03:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:03:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[03:03:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:04:18] *** dwd has left the room
[03:04:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:04:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[03:04:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[03:04:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:04:42] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:05:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
[03:08:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:10:10] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "ZZZZzzzzzZZZZZ"
[03:10:22] *** Maranda has left the room
[03:11:53] *** Guus has left the room
[03:11:53] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:12:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[03:13:49] *** ralphm has joined the room
[03:17:04] *** Guus has left the room
[03:17:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:17:06] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:17:41] *** dwd has left the room
[03:21:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:27:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:30:15] *** SamWhited has left the room
[03:38:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:39:12] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[03:39:44] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[03:39:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[03:40:07] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[03:40:24] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[03:40:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:45:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[03:45:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:46:21] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[03:46:28] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[03:46:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[03:50:28] *** andy has joined the room
[03:51:19] *** Guus has left the room
[03:54:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:57:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:00:55] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[04:05:50] *** Nekit shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[04:06:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:07:15] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:07:30] *** jjrh has left the room
[04:07:32] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[04:12:22] *** dwd shows as "online"
[04:12:26] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[04:13:06] *** tux has left the room
[04:13:06] *** tux has joined the room
[04:15:30] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:15:59] *** rion has joined the room
[04:17:26] *** Nekit shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[04:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:19:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[04:19:41] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[04:19:42] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:25:04] *** dwd has left the room
[04:27:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:27:28] *** Nekit shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[04:27:58] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[04:30:19] *** dwd shows as "online"
[04:30:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:32:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:32:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:35:41] *** dwd has left the room
[04:41:35] *** Guus has left the room
[04:41:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:41:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:41:48] *** rion has left the room
[04:41:58] *** rion has joined the room
[04:42:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:45:48] *** Guus has left the room
[04:45:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:45:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[04:49:39] *** @Alacer has left the room
[04:49:40] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[04:51:10] *** andy has left the room
[04:51:15] *** Lance has left the room
[04:53:19] *** rion shows as "online"
[04:54:14] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[04:54:23] *** rion has left the room
[04:54:57] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:57:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:00:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:05:23] *** andy has joined the room
[05:06:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:06:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:11:27] *** ralphm has joined the room
[05:11:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:16:16] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:21:56] *** ludo has joined the room
[05:23:41] *** Guus has left the room
[05:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:24:26] *** Nekit has left the room
[05:26:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[05:26:32] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[05:26:33] *** dwd has left the room
[05:26:33] *** dwd shows as "online"
[05:26:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[05:26:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[05:27:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:28:16] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[05:31:59] *** @Alacer has left the room
[05:33:16] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[05:33:16] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[05:33:29] *** j.r has left the room
[05:33:34] *** j.r has joined the room
[05:33:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:33:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:38:41] *** dwd has left the room
[05:38:44] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:42:10] *** j.r has left the room
[05:42:19] *** j.r has joined the room
[05:43:59] *** tux has left the room
[05:44:00] *** tux has joined the room
[05:51:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:51:19] *** Guus has left the room
[05:53:02] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[05:56:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:56:36] *** Guus has left the room
[05:56:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:58:23] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[06:01:38] *** goffi has joined the room
[06:02:05] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:09:19] *** Guus has left the room
[06:09:19] *** Guus has left the room
[06:10:19] *** andy has left the room
[06:10:19] *** andy has joined the room
[06:11:41] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:12:05] *** ralphm has joined the room
[06:21:51] *** ludo has left the room
[06:21:53] *** ludo has joined the room
[06:23:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:23:14] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:25:06] *** @Alacer has left the room
[06:27:05] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:27:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:27:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:27:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:27:47] *** dwd shows as "online"
[06:29:13] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[06:32:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:32:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:33:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:33:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:36:16] *** lovetox has joined the room
[06:38:06] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[06:38:07] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[06:41:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[06:42:12] *** lovetox has left the room
[06:44:11] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[06:45:51] *** andy has left the room
[06:46:10] *** pep. shows as "online"
[06:47:53] *** SamWhited has left the room
[06:52:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:53:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:53:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:54:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[06:57:04] <edhelas> We do indeed
[06:58:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[06:59:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:00:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:00:14] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:01:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:01:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:02:12] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:02:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:02:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:02:20] *** dwd has left the room
[07:02:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:02:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:03:00] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:07:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:07:12] *** Guus has left the room
[07:07:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:07:15] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:07:36] <goffi> Hi, SàT support it too
[07:07:44] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:08:41] *** dwd has left the room
[07:09:20] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[07:09:38] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:09:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:10:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:10:08] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[07:12:37] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[07:14:41] *** dwd has left the room
[07:15:12] *** rion has left the room
[07:15:17] *** rion has joined the room
[07:15:52] <SaltyBones> SaT?
[07:17:48] <goffi> SaltyBones: https://salut-a-toi.org
[07:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[07:18:19] *** Guus has left the room
[07:19:06] *** andy has joined the room
[07:19:34] <vanitasvitae> Just read the XMPP Newsletter. Good work :)
[07:19:38] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:19:49] <daniel> Oh there is one already?
[07:20:11] <daniel> Is it available on a website? Or is it literally just a newsletter?
[07:20:27] <vanitasvitae> https://xmpp.org/2018/02/the-xmpp-newsletter-28-february-2018
[07:21:18] <goffi> neat :)
[07:21:20] <vanitasvitae> Basically it is a link list, but there were one or two articles that slipped my eyes
[07:24:07] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[07:24:10] *** rtq3 has left the room
[07:24:16] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[07:25:57] *** jubalh has joined the room
[07:26:23] *** Lance has joined the room
[07:26:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[07:28:08] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[07:29:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:29:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:29:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:30:15] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:30:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:32:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:32:32] *** xnyhps has joined the room
[07:32:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:32:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:32:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:32:54] *** rion shows as "online"
[07:32:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:08] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:24] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:33:55] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:03] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:34:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:46] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:34:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:01] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:07] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:35:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:35:23] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:31] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:35:39] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:35:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:35:55] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:10] *** dwd has left the room
[07:36:11] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:30] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:54] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:36:55] *** xnyhps has left the room
[07:37:03] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:37:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:20] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:42] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:53] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:37:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:09] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:25] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:30] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:41] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:49] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:38:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:38:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:21] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:29] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[07:39:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:40:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[07:40:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:40:57] *** xnyhps has joined the room
[07:41:23] *** andy has left the room
[07:42:22] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:42:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:42:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:42:48] *** rion has left the room
[07:42:52] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[07:42:53] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[07:43:00] *** rion shows as "online"
[07:44:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:44:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:44:20] *** dwd has left the room
[07:45:18] *** Kev has joined the room
[07:45:19] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:45:48] *** dwd shows as "online"
[07:47:41] *** dwd has left the room
[07:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[07:49:16] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[07:50:32] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:53:22] *** @Alacer has left the room
[07:53:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:53:44] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:54:29] *** rion has left the room
[07:55:24] *** j.r has left the room
[07:55:26] *** j.r has joined the room
[07:56:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[07:56:20] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:56:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:57:45] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:58:30] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:01:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:02:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:02:29] *** dwd has left the room
[08:02:45] *** remko has joined the room
[08:02:46] *** remko shows as "online"
[08:03:35] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[08:04:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:04:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:04:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:05:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:05:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:06:11] *** andy has joined the room
[08:06:52] *** matlag shows as "online"
[08:07:54] *** Lance has left the room
[08:09:58] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:11:54] *** daniel has left the room
[08:12:13] *** dwd has left the room
[08:13:06] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:13:53] *** stefandxm has left the room
[08:14:33] *** andy has left the room
[08:15:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:16:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:17:21] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[08:17:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:19:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:20:04] *** dwd has left the room
[08:20:05] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:21:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:21:06] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:21:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:22:20] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[08:22:56] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[08:24:25] *** j.r has joined the room
[08:26:14] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:26:56] *** daniel has left the room
[08:27:08] *** daniel shows as "online"
[08:27:33] *** Alex has joined the room
[08:27:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:28:20] *** @Alacer has left the room
[08:28:31] *** Lance has joined the room
[08:28:32] *** Lance shows as "online"
[08:29:37] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[08:30:42] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:31:20] *** rtq3 has left the room
[08:32:11] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[08:32:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:33:11] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[08:34:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:35:33] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[08:35:42] *** dwd has left the room
[08:36:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:36:47] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:36:55] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:37:30] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:38:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:38:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:39:15] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:39:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:40:25] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:40:36] *** Alex has left the room
[08:40:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:40:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:40:59] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:06] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:10] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:41:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:24] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:32] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:40] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:41:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:42:04] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:42:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:42:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:42:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:42:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:43:04] *** dwd has left the room
[08:43:23] *** Lance shows as "away"
[08:43:35] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[08:43:37] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:43:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:45:58] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[08:47:34] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[08:48:15] *** rion shows as "online"
[08:48:44] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[08:50:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[08:53:12] *** rion has left the room
[08:57:55] *** dwd shows as "online"
[08:58:39] *** @Alacer has left the room
[08:58:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:59:30] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:00:01] *** jubalh has left the room
[09:00:20] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[09:00:34] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[09:01:26] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:04:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:04:08] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:05:03] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:05:29] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[09:05:53] *** rion shows as "online"
[09:06:37] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[09:07:09] *** ludo has left the room
[09:07:12] *** ludo has joined the room
[09:09:03] *** rion shows as "away"
[09:09:42] <Ge0rG> I love it how xmpp.is say they won't support the spam fighting manifesto, and then describe how they essentially implement each of the stated requirements <https://xmpp.is/2018/02/21/the-jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto/>
[09:12:07] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[09:12:46] *** rion has left the room
[09:12:46] *** jubalh has joined the room
[09:14:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:14:08] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[09:14:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:14:35] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[09:14:45] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[09:17:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:17:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:17:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:17:49] *** dwd shows as "online"
[09:19:47] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:20:17] <Maranda> Ge0rG, infact xmpp.is is one of the servers I get spim hits from atm, *the hilarity ™️®️*
[09:20:24] *** ralphm has joined the room
[09:20:26] <Maranda> I wonder why
[09:20:31] *** ludo has joined the room
[09:20:55] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[09:21:43] <Ge0rG> Maranda: Contact addresses for xmpp.is are https://xmpp.is/contact/ (support, admin, feedback, abuse)
[09:21:48] <Ge0rG> please feel free to bother them.
[09:22:08] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[09:22:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:22:26] <Maranda> 🤣
[09:22:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:23:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:23:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:24:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:24:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:25:09] <Ge0rG> When looking for xmpp.is in my log I found this one instead: https://isopres.de/impressum/
[09:25:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:25:37] *** Alex has joined the room
[09:25:45] *** dwd has left the room
[09:26:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:28:35] <mathieui> Thanks for the newsletter, by the way
[09:28:48] <Ge0rG> Yeah, it's awesome!
[09:29:14] <Ge0rG> I'd love to have the big ones (like EVE and Epic) mentioned on our twitter as well
[09:29:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:31:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:31:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:31:11] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:33:24] *** lumi has joined the room
[09:33:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:33:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:34:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:35:01] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:36:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:36:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:36:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:37:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:37:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:37:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:38:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:39:30] *** blabla shows as "online"
[09:39:35] <jonasw> this ID mess is a mess
[09:40:12] *** Martin has joined the room
[09:40:26] <jonasw> Kev, there’s no reasonable way we can actually force clients to generate globally unique IDs though, is there?
[09:40:39] <jonasw> so I don’t think that there’s an actual solution to the "appears to be rewriting history" issue.
[09:41:55] *** marc shows as "online"
[09:41:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[09:42:23] <Kev> No, I think there's not (I keep saying that, I think) - I wasn't arguing we can solve it, I was arguing that "they've got lots of power anyway" isn't the reason to not care.
[09:42:57] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:43:04] *** lskdjf has left the room
[09:43:04] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[09:43:21] <jonasw> oh, I must’ve misunderstood that
[09:43:29] <jonasw> how would we be caring then?
[09:43:53] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:44:01] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:44:12] <Kev> I felt that "they've got lots of power anyway" was a "we shouldn't care". We should care, we just probably can't avoid it, so we carefully document it in security considerations etc.
[09:44:57] <Kev> It sounded like Simon was saying that malicious clients/servers are a problem not worth thinking about. I might have misinterpreted his words.
[09:45:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:45:32] *** lskdjf has left the room
[09:45:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:46:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:46:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:48:18] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[09:49:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:50:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:51:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:51:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[09:54:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:56:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[09:56:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:58:25] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[09:59:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:59:36] *** andy has joined the room
[10:00:04] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[10:00:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:01:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:02:15] <SaltyBones> Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say...
[10:02:23] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[10:02:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:07:03] *** blabla has left the room
[10:07:10] *** daniel has left the room
[10:07:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:10:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:10:20] *** had-hoc has joined the room
[10:10:20] *** had-hoc shows as "online"
[10:10:57] <SaltyBones> Hm...how to sum this up...1. A client and server can claim that a message-ID was A when it was B; that is almost unsolvable but the other recipients just won't believe it anyway. 2. There is usually no authentication in XMPP so the point seems a bit moot.
[10:11:07] *** lumi shows as "online"
[10:11:07] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:11:22] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:11:33] <jonasw> the main issue is that an ID can be re-used
[10:11:38] <jonasw> as far as I understand it
[10:11:51] *** Martin has left the room
[10:11:55] <jonasw> and since we use IDs as identifiers in various protocols (LMC, but also References and stuff), that’s a problem
[10:12:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:12:34] <SaltyBones> Yeah, but there is a difference between assuming that it happens by accident and can be fixed and assuming that it is adversarial.
[10:13:19] <jonasw> I’m confused
[10:13:57] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:14:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:14:32] <Ge0rG> The only way to properly solve this is to limit the validity domain of IDs to a single session.
[10:14:44] <Kev> SaltyBones: "no authentication"?
[10:14:46] *** Martin has joined the room
[10:14:47] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:14:50] <Kev> I think one can reasonably argue with that statement.
[10:14:51] *** Martin shows as "online"
[10:15:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:15:27] <jonasw> Kev, I think they refer to "cryptographic authentication". A server can esaily forge a stanza for anyone to or from his domain.
[10:15:38] <SaltyBones> Yeah, sorry.
[10:16:12] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, but then you could force the server to have some sort of UUID and a session counter and if you throw the three things together you get reasonable global IDs.
[10:16:18] <Kev> There's cryptographic authentication, even. It's just that it's applied to the domain, not beyond.
[10:17:02] <goffi> is there a licence for the Newsletter? Would be nice so it could be translated
[10:17:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:18:10] *** jubalh has left the room
[10:18:25] <SaltyBones> goffi, has been discussed in the comm team channel
[10:18:29] <Tobias> isn't all website content on xmpp.org under a single license
[10:18:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:20:13] *** andy has left the room
[10:20:23] <Kev> Should be, but I think that notice was lost at some point.
[10:20:25] <SaltyBones> Kev, yes, but there is no message authentication so if you only store messages you cannot prove to anybody later that serverA sent you messageB with ID-C...
[10:20:42] <Kev> That's somewhat different.
[10:20:45] *** valo has joined the room
[10:21:18] <SaltyBones> Yes, just pointing it out because you of your "somebody claims you liked a post about KKK" example
[10:21:24] <SaltyBones> Yes, just pointing it out because of your "somebody claims you liked a post about KKK" example
[10:21:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:21:48] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[10:22:01] <jonasw> SaltyBones, the issue is that that scenario can be caused by a client alone.
[10:22:10] <SaltyBones> jonasw, the reason I ended up with this proposal is that it makes the situation better and it is very easy to implement.
[10:22:20] <jonasw> a mailicous server is really powerful, indeed, and we generally assume that each user can trust their own server, and that they have to some extent trust a MUC service if they’re using one
[10:22:22] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[10:22:40] <Kev> SaltyBones: I think my issue is that the core of your proposal (the hashing thing) doesn't make anything better :)
[10:23:00] <Kev> Or, I don't see how it does.
[10:23:36] <SaltyBones> Kev, that's a reasonable way to look at it. You could just as well not do the hashing and just use per-connectionserver-salt + connection-counter
[10:24:10] <SaltyBones> That was just a fix for the "oh but the connection counter leaks stuff" problem...
[10:24:16] <Kev> Oh, no, you couldn't do counters, because of the leaks.
[10:24:41] <Kev> But as telling the server what ID to use for MAM isn't sensible, AFAICS, I don't think the server being able to predict the client ID buys much at all.
[10:24:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:25:09] <SaltyBones> If the server can assure that the client ID is unique it can simply use that for MAM.
[10:25:18] <SaltyBones> That's the main point... :)
[10:25:32] <jonasw> SaltyBones, but that only solves the "client knows the eventual ID of the message"
[10:25:38] *** j.r has joined the room
[10:25:46] <jonasw> it doesn’t solve any of the malleability things cross-domain.
[10:26:00] <jonasw> that is only solved by your rewriting proposal, and I’m not confident that will work properly
[10:26:10] <jonasw> except with a lot of complexity on the server
[10:26:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:26:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:26:52] <SaltyBones> jonasw, not sure what you mean
[10:27:00] <SaltyBones> jonasw, not sure what you mean with malleability cross-domain
[10:27:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:27:04] <Kev> SaltyBones: You're assuming that a server is happy to have arbitrary client-provided IDs as the primary query into the archive. I'm suggesting I don't think that's valid.
[10:27:19] <Kev> I think you have to let the server decide how it indexes its database.
[10:27:54] <SaltyBones> Kev, they are not arbitrary at all because the server can verify that the client generated them correctly. Essentially they are just forced to use the same generation algo....
[10:28:17] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:28:22] <SaltyBones> Of course if there are servers that don't like this algorithm for some reason than we should look at what that reason is and how to fix it. :)
[10:28:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:28:50] <jonasw> SaltyBones, the reason for prosody/Zash is clear: their ID contains the date because that allows quick access to a bucket of MAM data
[10:28:52] <goffi> SaltyBones: and what was the conclusion of the discussion? Can we re-use? Tobias: I don't see any licence mention on the wesite, what is it?
[10:29:43] <Tobias> I'm sure you can translate it when referencing back and mention the original author
[10:30:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:30:26] *** daniel has left the room
[10:30:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:30:34] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[10:30:34] *** lumi shows as "online"
[10:30:53] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[10:30:56] <SaltyBones> goffi, translations would be appreciated and then linked to from the main newsletter. Not a real legal discussion.
[10:31:08] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:32:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:33:13] *** daniel has left the room
[10:33:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:33:48] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:33:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:34:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:34:20] *** daniel has left the room
[10:34:24] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:34:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:34:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:34:33] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[10:34:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:34:52] <goffi> Tobias: SaltyBones: I plan to translate in French to a popular website, but it require to specify licence, so I want to be sure I can set CC By-SA there. And yes I'll mention original post of course.
[10:34:56] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:35:17] <Tobias> what's the SA?
[10:35:22] <goffi> Share Alike
[10:35:46] <SaltyBones> goffi, join commteam@ and ask there.
[10:36:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[10:37:01] <goffi> SaltyBones: Tobias: asking there now, thanks
[10:37:06] <SaltyBones> jonasw, they could just include a timestamp for timestamp queries and use an increasing salt to have an increasing index...
[10:37:45] <SaltyBones> We can probably suss out all of these problems but I am not sure anybody but me is actually interested in doing that. xD
[10:37:54] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:38:12] <Ge0rG> > but I am not sure anybody but me is actually interested in doing that.
I know that feeling. Too well.
[10:38:41] *** dwd has left the room
[10:39:46] <Kev> I'm glad to have this discussion. I'm not convinced that the proposal, and the complexity that goes with it, is solving any problems that a simpler solution doesn't.
[10:39:50] <jonasw> SaltyBones, but timestamps aren’t monotonic
[10:40:32] <Kev> That is, it seems to me that the problems solved by this solution are the same solved by just saying to clients 'be unique in origin-id', and updating other XEPs to say 'reply with the origin-id' (LMC, Receipts, etc.).
[10:40:42] <jonasw> yeah
[10:40:50] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: sorry, I didn't even read through the message-IDs thread due to lack of time.
[10:40:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:40:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:41:20] <SaltyBones> Kev, and maybe adding a reply "this is your mam-ID" to client messages
[10:41:26] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[10:41:40] <SaltyBones> jonasw, they aren't? :)
[10:42:17] <Kev> Or ignoring origin-id, using the stanza ID the way we always have, and killing MUC with fire :)
[10:42:58] <jonasw> SaltyBones, clock corrections make it non-monotonic. and of course there’s the issue of clock sync between nodes
[10:43:01] <Ge0rG> Kev: or just finally mandating that MUC must keep message IDs.
[10:43:13] <Kev> Or that.
[10:43:26] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[10:43:34] <Ge0rG> And mandating that clients which want to employ LMC and other references must use sufficiently unique IDs
[10:43:49] <SaltyBones> jonasw, ah I was thinking about the lamport kind of timestamp
[10:43:58] <jonasw> that sounds complex
[10:44:24] <Ge0rG> Maybe somebody wants to resurrect the Jul 2014 thread on MUC message IDs.
[10:44:25] <SaltyBones> a little
[10:46:25] <SaltyBones> jonasw, anyway if you have server generated timestamps and a monotonic counter the mapping should be pretty easy although not a NOP :)
[10:46:56] <Kev> You need more than monotonic, don't you?
[10:46:58] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: but clustering!
[10:47:11] <Ge0rG> no wait, that was Dave's text.
[10:47:15] <Ge0rG> but race conditions!1!
[10:48:41] <SaltyBones> If you want clustering and query by timestamp I suppose you need the opposite of monotonic.
[10:48:54] <SaltyBones> You want to merge archives by timestamp. Although that sounds dubious.
[10:50:44] *** lumi shows as "online"
[10:52:13] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[10:52:23] <SaltyBones> So, let's suppose that servers really want to generate their own ID for internal use. That seems fair but then why does the client need to know this ID for MAM? That's a bit fishy imho...
[10:53:12] *** jere has joined the room
[10:53:20] <Kev> Because it's that ID that is the index into the archive.
[10:53:40] <Ge0rG> I wonder if we can do XMPP over that link: http://www.vodafone.com/content/index/media/vodafone-group-releases/2018/vodafone-and-nokia-to-create-first-4g-network-on-moon.html
[10:53:43] <SaltyBones> but why does the client need to know that
[10:53:58] <Kev> Because it queries the archive.
[10:54:12] <SaltyBones> To do what?
[10:55:29] <SaltyBones> I mean, there are obvious solution here as well: 1. The client query the server by its own ID and the server can try to use that as an additional index or 2. The server could just reply to client messages with the new ID.
[10:55:48] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:56:01] <SaltyBones> But the whole situation is weird...what are the clients trying to achieve by querying the MAM?
[10:56:19] <Kev> There is some massive logical disconnect here.
[10:56:37] *** andy has joined the room
[10:56:41] <Kev> You're asking why a user would want to retrieve messages from their message archive.
[10:56:52] <Kev> What's the point of having the archive if you *can't* query it?
[10:57:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:57:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:57:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[10:58:30] <SaltyBones> But why would you need to know what s in the archive to query it
[10:58:54] <Kev> Have you read the XEP? :)
[10:58:56] *** tux shows as "online"
[10:59:15] <SaltyBones> Well, I ve tried... :)
[10:59:53] <Kev> You say things like "Give me everything since message X", where X is the MAM ID.
[11:00:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:00:22] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:00:29] *** Guus has left the room
[11:00:42] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:01:04] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[11:01:10] *** Guus has left the room
[11:01:12] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[11:01:25] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:01:26] <SaltyBones> Yes, but now we are asking the client to query by and ID which the server generated and didn't tell it about...
[11:01:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:01:51] *** blabla shows as "online"
[11:01:59] <SaltyBones> Why not just query by the clients ID or timestamp?
[11:02:10] *** dwd has left the room
[11:02:20] <Ge0rG> timestamps are unreliable
[11:02:33] <jonasw> SaltyBones, because it is exact
[11:02:34] <Kev> Syncing on timestamp doesn't work, indeed.
[11:02:39] <jonasw> timestamps are not exact
[11:03:01] <Kev> And the client ID means you're storing the primary index provided by the client, which enforces implementation details on the server that I'm not convinced we want to.
[11:03:21] <Kev> And maybe it's something we can live with, but I don't currently see what it buys us.
[11:03:29] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:03:48] *** Maranda has joined the room
[11:03:51] <jonasw> I know at least one implementation which can’t live with that :)
[11:04:05] *** remko shows as "away"
[11:04:19] <Holger> The message in question might be an incoming message, an outgoing message sent by that client, or an outgoing message sent by another client. You'd use the client ID in some or all these cases?
[11:04:30] <Kev> jonasw: If you mean Prosody's timestamp one, I think additional stuff's going to end up needed there anyway, for all the other things we were discussing at the summit.
[11:04:32] <Kev> But yes.
[11:04:57] <Kev> Holger: Well, you obviously can't in all, for id clashing reasons. At least, not with this suggested scheme.
[11:05:08] <Holger> That's why I'm asking.
[11:05:26] <Holger> So basically the client ID is not an option.
[11:05:34] <Holger> If you don't want to introduce another great mess.
[11:07:16] *** Alex has left the room
[11:07:16] *** andy has left the room
[11:07:35] *** andy has joined the room
[11:08:41] *** dwd has left the room
[11:08:46] <jonasw> Holger, that’s a very good point, I like it :)
[11:09:26] <Ge0rG> another great mess! \o/
[11:09:39] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[11:09:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:10:12] *** lumi shows as "online"
[11:10:22] *** rtq3 has left the room
[11:10:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:11:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:12:07] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[11:12:27] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:12:55] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:12:55] *** Martin shows as "online"
[11:13:04] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:13:15] *** marc has joined the room
[11:13:34] *** andy has left the room
[11:13:40] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:13:59] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[11:16:01] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[11:16:13] *** Martin shows as "online"
[11:16:32] <Neustradamus> It is beautiful to see the first newsletter after XMPP Roundup and Jabber journal :)
[11:17:09] <Neustradamus> I see a new redirection problem: http://wiki.jabber.org/index.php/....
[11:17:17] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:17:50] *** marc shows as "online"
[11:18:06] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:18:35] <Holger> I'm confused. Say the client re-logs in after loosing the connection and knows the MAM ID not just of the last incoming but also of the last outgoing message because we solved that somehow. He then queries MAM with after=$ID. How does he decide whether to specify the $ID of the last outgoing or the last incoming message? The ordering of incoming vs. outgoing messages on the client side might be different from the server side, no? (Maybe *this* can only be solved properly by having the server reflect IDs?)
[11:19:17] <jonasw> yes, that can be solved by having the server reflect IDs
[11:19:27] <Ge0rG> Holger: that's an awesome point
[11:19:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:19:46] *Ge0rG writes it on the back of his "race conditions" card
[11:19:49] <jonasw> hah
[11:19:59] <jonasw> that’s why I think we just want self-carbons by now.
[11:19:59] <Kev> It's the same point I made on the list earlier this morning.
[11:20:03] <jonasw> yeah
[11:20:06] <Kev> But with more words ;)
[11:20:16] <Holger> Kev: Oh sorry, I didn't catch up yet.
[11:20:38] <Kev> The chat in here was triggered by me replying to the mailing list thread, I think.
[11:20:43] <jonasw> yeah
[11:20:52] <Ge0rG> Kev: except almost nobody read your mail, it seems
[11:21:03] <SaltyBones> The ordering or messages in MAM can be different from the client?
[11:21:10] <Holger> Can we maybe somehow merge reflection of IDs with 0198 ACKs?
[11:21:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:21:15] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:21:15] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: yes
[11:21:32] <Ge0rG> Holger: this is something I proposed when MAM first appeared.
[11:21:32] <Kev> Holger: I'd rather not, that's somewhat breaking layering.
[11:21:48] <Ge0rG> Holger: 0198 and Carbons and MAM in a single unholy union.
[11:21:54] *** dwd has left the room
[11:21:57] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[11:21:58] <SaltyBones> Why can they be different and who is right? :)
[11:22:01] <Holger> Kev: Then the layers are wrong IMO.
[11:22:37] <Kev> Really?
[11:22:38] <Holger> Kev: I find it a bit embarrassing to define a protocol that has the server generate two responses to a single message.
[11:22:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:22:46] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:22:47] <Kev> 198 is about the network layer and stuff getting through.
[11:22:51] <Kev> MAM is about the protocol layer.
[11:22:57] <jonasw> Holger, two responses?
[11:23:11] <Zash> 198 isn't per message
[11:23:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:23:18] <jonasw> not even per stanza, indeed
[11:23:29] <Holger> jonasw: (1) ACK I got message with ID $count, (2) ACK I got the message with MAM $ID.
[11:23:31] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:23:48] <jonasw> Holger, but the (1) ACK is explicitly requested by the client with an <{sm}r/>
[11:23:57] <Holger> Yes I'd usually request it per-stanza.
[11:24:05] <jonasw> hm, I don’
[11:24:07] <jonasw> *I don’t
[11:24:08] <Kev> So 198 could be bunching a load of stuff, for different stanzas (which may or may not be messages), and is generally going to happen once the server receives the stanzas, whereas 313 happens later, once it routes goes in the archive.
[11:24:19] <Holger> jonasw: If the client doesn't deem this necessary, why does it deem it necessary for MAM?
[11:24:35] <Holger> Ge0rG: Yay I'm good at re-inventing wheels.
[11:24:36] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:24:36] <Ge0rG> Kev: some servers will only emit the 0198 ack after fully processing the stanza
[11:24:41] <jonasw> Holger, because MAM contains things from other entities I suppose
[11:25:00] <Ge0rG> yaxim will emit an <r/> after each message because mobile is unreliable
[11:25:09] <jonasw> on the XEP-0198 stream, I know the order of the stanzas. In MAM, I don’t unless I get an in-order reflection of my own message.
[11:26:05] <SaltyBones> If a client queries the MAM by last ID but the order in the MAM might be different I don't understand how it works. :)
[11:26:22] <Holger> Ge0rG: And if it was reliable you wouldn't need 0198. I never got the idea of requesting an ACK only every now and then.
[11:26:25] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:26:27] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[11:26:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:26:43] *** lumi shows as "online"
[11:26:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:27:05] <Holger> Except for requesting it only once per bunch of stanzas you sent in one go, or so. In which case a single MAM ID response is fine as well.
[11:27:07] <jonasw> Holger, when sending a bunch of messages at once, it makes sense to request an ack only after the last message
[11:27:11] <jonasw> saves overhead
[11:27:12] <jonasw> yeah
[11:27:16] *** dwd has left the room
[11:27:28] <jonasw> (or rather, sending a bunch of stanzas in general)
[11:27:41] <Holger> Yes what I don't get is how the requirements differ from those for MAM ID reflections.
[11:28:17] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:28:28] <jonasw> Holger, hm, maybe that would work.
[11:28:30] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:28:41] <jonasw> still requires some kind of knowledge about the relative ordering of messages you sent vs. messages you received and other resources sent
[11:28:49] <jonasw> I don’t think we can get that without something on the stanza layer?
[11:28:50] <Holger> Why?
[11:28:56] <jonasw> to be able to query correctly
[11:29:05] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:29:12] <Holger> The ordering is now defined by the order or stanza IDs you got on your incoming stream.
[11:29:18] <Holger> *the order of stanza IDs
[11:29:19] <jonasw> how would I know when I send and receive a stanza at the same time and then my connection drops without stream management.
[11:29:26] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[11:29:30] <jonasw> now I need to query the archive
[11:29:42] <jonasw> which of the two IDs do I use to get a complete, dupfree picture?
[11:30:27] <Holger> You ditch unacknowledged messages locally and query MAM with after=$ID, where ID is the last ID you got from the server, no?
[11:30:30] <jonasw> (I’m currently too hungry to think of a more sophisticated case where using the wrong ID would actually lead to *missed* messages, but there might be some)
[11:31:02] <jonasw> okay, I need some food first
[11:31:08] <jonasw> food for thought, if you will.
[11:31:20] <Holger> I'll try coffee.
[11:31:46] <Holger> And I'll read Kev's email :-)
[11:34:19] *** marmistrz has left the room
[11:35:41] *** dwd has left the room
[11:37:12] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[11:37:15] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:37:46] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:37:46] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[11:38:06] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:38:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:39:46] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[11:41:20] *** lumi shows as "online"
[11:41:55] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:42:47] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:43:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:43:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:43:35] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:45:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:46:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:47:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:47:19] *** Guus has left the room
[11:47:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:47:25] <flow> MAM IDs in SM acks seems to be worth exploring
[11:47:53] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:47:54] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:48:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:48:39] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:49:06] *** dwd has left the room
[11:50:20] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:50:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:50:28] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:50:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:50:44] <MattJ> Depends whether you want to communicate to the client "this was the last entry in MAM at this point in the stream", or whether you want the client to know the ID of every message in the archive
[11:51:01] <Ge0rG> Holger: except we need SM for IQs as well.
[11:51:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:51:39] <flow> MattJ, last entry in archive should be sufficient for most cases
[11:51:44] <Ge0rG> MattJ: what about giving back a list of message id / message ID pairs.
[11:51:57] *** dwd has left the room
[11:52:27] <Holger> Ge0rG: Those will obviously not carry a MAM ID?
[11:52:56] <MattJ> I'm guessing Ge0rG means a map of @id -> MAM-ID
[11:53:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:53:25] <Ge0rG> I just love our nomenclature
[11:53:32] *** Alex has joined the room
[11:53:34] *** dwd shows as "online"
[11:53:41] *** dwd has left the room
[11:53:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:54:08] <MattJ> What nomenclature?
[11:54:15] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:54:15] <MattJ> Nobody can agree on what to call anything :)
[11:54:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:54:38] <Ge0rG> Can't we just map jabber IDs to nonza IDs and be done?
[11:54:45] <Holger> :-)
[11:54:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:54:55] *** marmistrz has left the room
[11:55:02] <Ge0rG> This protocol is not for zimpies™
[11:55:04] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[11:55:17] <Holger> While at it, maybe just fix 0198 to return an ID for every stanza and ditch both <r/> and the counting which nobody gets right anyway :-P
[11:55:35] <Ge0rG> Holger: but layers!
[11:55:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:56:06] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[11:56:09] <Holger> Ge0rG: The TCP layer is responsible for reliable message delivery.
[11:56:25] <Ge0rG> Holger: no, TCP is a byte stream, not a message stream.
[11:56:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[11:57:19] *** Guus has left the room
[11:57:34] <MattJ> I think 198 is fine as-is, and I'm not keen on extending it
[11:57:54] <MattJ> But yes, we do need to solve the MAM-ID-for-outgoing-messages problem
[11:58:00] <Ge0rG> MattJ: from a smart-server dumb-client point of view, having four different mechanisms to track messages sucks.
[11:58:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:58:04] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[11:58:13] <Holger> So then we need a separate acknowledgment for MAM.
[11:58:17] <Ge0rG> I'm talking of 0184, 0198, 0280 and 0313
[11:58:17] *** jubalh has joined the room
[11:58:28] <MattJ> Typically consensus has been about reflecting outgoing messages (in part, or in full), because this also has other benefits and we do it in Carbons anyway (just not for the originating resource)
[11:58:39] <Ge0rG> MattJ: yes.
[11:58:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:58:53] <Ge0rG> I wonder how that will play out with self-messages.
[11:59:18] *** lumi shows as "online"
[11:59:19] <MattJ> Heh
[11:59:26] <Holger> I understand where you guys are coming from, I just think this adds a bit embarrasement when you show the procotol to a newcomer for the first time.
[11:59:47] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:00:02] <MattJ> Holger, and your preferred solution is?
[12:00:20] <MattJ> Oh sorry, you already said
[12:00:22] <Holger> MattJ: Merging 0198 ACKs with 0313 message reflections.
[12:00:22] <Ge0rG> Holger: XMPP is already mocked by HTTP developers. It can't get any worse.
[12:00:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:00:28] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:00:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:00:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:01:18] *** remko shows as "online"
[12:01:48] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:02:42] *** daniel has left the room
[12:02:43] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[12:02:44] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[12:02:45] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:03:19] *** Guus has left the room
[12:03:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:03:33] *** Alex has left the room
[12:03:34] <Holger> But I see how just adding a stanza-id attribute and otherwise keeping 0198 as-is has downsides. So yes just adding a 0313 mechanism is probably an easier way forward.
[12:03:57] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:04:10] <jonasw> FWIW, I think keeping 198 and MAM IDs separate is sane separation of concerns
[12:04:12] <MattJ> For the most case I don't think we should be introducing newcomers to the protocol
[12:04:12] <Holger> It's just like other things where the end result is more convoluted than it would be if we addressed all this sync foo in one go.
[12:04:29] <MattJ> It's a library problem, and the problem is most libraries just leave you with stanza building
[12:04:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:04:37] <Ge0rG> with 0313 reflections we probably don't need to <r/> each message any more
[12:04:39] <Holger> We need new libraries!
[12:04:47] <Ge0rG> We need more libraries!
[12:04:55] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[12:04:56] <Ge0rG> There are only three(?) for python!
[12:05:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:05:10] <jonasw> i need to port poezio to aioxmpp, then there’ll be only one *evil laughter*
[12:05:10] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:05:43] <Ge0rG> jonasw: python-nbxmpp!
[12:05:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:05:58] <jonasw> that does barely count as library
[12:06:00] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[12:06:00] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[12:06:26] <Ge0rG> and sleekxmpp used to be a parent of slixmpp? There is also xmpppy
[12:06:32] <Holger> Ge0rG: Well what we really need is new library authors I guess, and at least those will have to be introduced to the protocol. In practice you'll have to understand most of that stuff as a serious client author as well, of course, even if your library is sane.
[12:06:33] <Ge0rG> So we have five.
[12:06:56] <Ge0rG> Holger: as it happens, the most active libraries are maintained by client devs.
[12:07:03] <Holger> See.
[12:07:05] <Ge0rG> We have much NIH here.
[12:07:06] <jonasw> I wonder why ;-)
[12:07:41] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:07:42] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:07:57] <Holger> So I'm not fully convinced that "but libraries!" is a good excuse for adding insanity to the protocol.
[12:08:01] <jonasw> I can at least argue that I didn’t NIH, there simply wasn’t anything for python3-asyncio when I started. And I even considered porting sleekxmpp to asyncio, but I thought this to be not reasonably possible.
[12:08:12] <jonasw> Holger, as both library and client author, I agree.
[12:08:21] <jonasw> but I think keeping SM and MAM separate is sane.
[12:08:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you are biased.
[12:08:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why?
[12:08:32] <Ge0rG> I also think that keeping SM and MAM separate is good.
[12:08:41] *** dwd has left the room
[12:08:46] <Ge0rG> And I argue in favor of a new type of session, which is MAM-Sub
[12:08:57] <jonasw> yeah
[12:09:02] <jonasw> that’d be great
[12:09:40] <Ge0rG> > Still, I like the idea of MAM subscriptions as a replacement or augmentation for carbons
Saying that for three years now.
[12:09:54] <jonasw> Ge0rG, implement it pls
[12:10:08] <jonasw> although bind2 will probably do pretty much that?
[12:10:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: bind2 is just a mechanism to carry things.
[12:10:43] <jonasw> bind2 would have the effect of MAM-Sub though?
[12:10:47] <Ge0rG> jonasw: nope
[12:10:55] <jonasw> by doing MAM sync and carbon enablement in a single atomic step?
[12:12:09] <Ge0rG> Let me make a strawman proposal of MAM-sub:
- you initiate a bind2 session, supplying the last-known MAM-ID
- the server doesn't deliver offline messages
- the server delivers your pending MAM messages
- the server auto-enables carbons and mam-reflections to you, starting to deliver everything after the MAM sync as "live"
[12:12:30] <jonasw> yeah
[12:12:32] <Ge0rG> so MAM-Sub is like Carbons but with mam-reflections
[12:12:49] <jonasw> alternatively, the server could just give you the current last MAM ID so that you can do the sync asynchronously
[12:12:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:12:54] <jonasw> while already receiving live messages
[12:12:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:13:07] <Ge0rG> I'm sure I proposed that and a bunch of other nifty optimizations (0198 auto-resume/start in bind2) on the ML some time last year
[12:13:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:13:18] <jonasw> yo
[12:13:25] <jonasw> we just need implementations.
[12:13:28] <Ge0rG> jonasw: processing MAM after live will be a pita, but okay.
[12:13:34] <jonasw> depends on your client, I guess
[12:13:37] <jonasw> I’d be fine with that.
[12:13:45] *** Zash has left the room
[12:13:58] <jonasw> has a considerable latency advantage, especially if you’ve been out for more than just a few hours
[12:14:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:14:11] <flow> Ge0rG, do mam-reflections solve the issue Holger described between incoming and outgoing messages?
[12:14:14] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[12:14:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:14:39] <Ge0rG> flow: yes.
[12:14:55] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[12:14:59] <Ge0rG> flow: MAM reflections will be part of your MAM archive, right between incoming messages, properly ordered.
[12:15:01] <jonasw> we just need to make sure that MAM-Reflections don’t rewrite IDs. this time for real *scnr*
[12:15:09] <jonasw> Ge0rG, what, why?
[12:15:15] <jonasw> wouldn’t you just have your outgoing messages in the MAM archive?
[12:15:31] <flow> Ge0rG, so mam-reflections are done after the message has been added to your archive, both incoming and outgoing messages
[12:15:39] <Ge0rG> flow: yes
[12:15:45] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not following
[12:15:45] <flow> sounds good
[12:15:57] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:16:06] <flow> you should write a XEP
[12:16:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:16:18] <flow> or otherwhise the idea will possibly be burried in the standards@ archive
[12:16:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:16:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why would you have the MAM reflection thing (presumably <message from="mam" to="your client"><forwarded><inner message from="your client"/></forwarded><stanza-id…/></message>) in the archive instead of just <inner message/>?
[12:16:54] *** dwd has left the room
[12:17:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wait, what?
[12:17:14] <jonasw> what is a MAM reflection?
[12:17:19] <flow> jonasw, I don't think that is what Ge0rg wanted to say with "will be part of your archive"
[12:17:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: whatever we make it to be
[12:17:41] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I am super confused now
[12:17:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: could be a sent carbon of your outgoing message, or the outgoing message wrapped in MAM
[12:17:46] <jonasw> yeah
[12:17:47] <jonasw> okay
[12:17:54] <jonasw> but WHY would you put that wrapped message into MAM again?
[12:17:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw: or maybe just a small-ish ack with the MAM ID and your original @id
[12:18:01] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I wouldn't
[12:18:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:18:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:18:08] <jonasw> I don’t understand:
12:14:59 Ge0rG> flow: MAM reflections will be part of your MAM archive, right between incoming messages, properly ordered.
this then
[12:18:11] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd put the original message, obviously
[12:18:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:18:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:18:35] <Ge0rG> jonasw: ignore it please
[12:18:37] <jonasw> okay
[12:18:51] <jonasw> then I didn’t say a thing since 12:15:01Z
[12:18:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw: of course your *sent message* will be part of your MAM archive, plus the MAM-ID
[12:19:00] *** @Alacer shows as "online"
[12:19:04] <jonasw> yeah, that’s a good thing :)
[12:19:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:19:15] *** Alex has joined the room
[12:19:18] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:19:53] *** @Alacer shows as "online"
[12:20:02] *** Martin shows as "online"
[12:20:08] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[12:20:18] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:20:47] *** Martin has left the room
[12:20:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:21:01] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[12:21:16] <flow> Ge0rG, once MAMSub is active, clients will only receive messages not stored into mam via the usual way, all other archived messages will be mam-reflected, correct?
[12:21:45] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:22:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:22:27] <Ge0rG> flow: wait, what?
[12:22:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:22:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:22:59] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:23:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:23:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:23:52] *** Yagiza has left the room
[12:24:43] <flow> Ge0rG, specific mam-reflections please
[12:25:05] <SaltyBones> I find our reasoning so far somewhat questionable. Because servers might want to use different IDs for messages these IDs should be reflected to the client so that it can make queries with that ID. Shouldn't a simply be able to respond to a clients query if the client uses its original ID? Maybe this is not really practically possible anymore now but it seems somehow more logical. :)
[12:25:18] <Ge0rG> flow: no, you will receive all messages as usual, with MAM-IDs injected
[12:25:20] <SaltyBones> I find our reasoning so far somewhat questionable. Because servers might want to use different IDs for messages these IDs should be reflected to the client so that it can make queries with that ID. Shouldn't a server simply be able to respond to a clients query if the client uses its original ID? Maybe this is not really practically possible anymore now but it seems somehow more logical. :)
[12:25:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:26:02] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[12:26:02] <flow> Ge0rG, and carbons still using forwarded?
[12:26:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:26:17] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:27:16] <Ge0rG> flow: let me sort this out: you will receive all(*) incoming messages as regular messages, sent carbons from your other clients as sent carbons and MAM reflections of your outgoing messages as whatever works (e.g. forwarded)
[12:28:08] <Ge0rG> all(*) = remember what I proposed at the summit / XMPP2 / routing2 brainstorming
[12:28:23] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:28:42] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[12:28:52] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[12:29:03] *** Zash has left the room
[12:29:18] <Ge0rG> But maybe routing2 is still too controversial
[12:29:20] *** Zash has joined the room
[12:29:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:29:41] *** dwd has left the room
[12:29:46] <flow> What gives you the impression that it is too controversial?
[12:30:03] <Ge0rG> flow: it breaks existing XMPP routing
[12:30:43] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:31:04] <flow> But it's opt-in. Do we have an example of a legacy protocol which breaks when another involved entity activated routing2?
[12:31:51] <Ge0rG> flow: not that I am aware of. But the proble is that it changes semantics of bare/full JID routing, which is guaranteed to leak outside the XMPP2 domain
[12:31:58] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[12:32:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:32:06] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:32:08] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[12:32:48] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:32:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:34:21] <flow> I guess that is just a fancy expression for "something could rely on the semantics and would break if someone else is using routing2"
[12:34:29] <MattJ> The root problem is that an XMPP1 entity will happily send to the full JID of an XMPP2 entity and expect it to be treated in the XMPP1 way
[12:34:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:35:01] *** Yagiza has left the room
[12:35:03] *** @Alacer has left the room
[12:35:04] <Kev> Full-JID 'I'm xmpp2' annotation seems like it works though.
[12:35:05] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[12:35:15] <Ge0rG> Kev: maybe, yeah.
[12:35:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:35:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:35:41] *** dwd has left the room
[12:35:47] <Kev> Or heuristically 'fixing' xmpp1 full JID based on DPI, but that seems unappealing and probably fragile.
[12:36:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:36:10] <flow> Kev, DPI?
[12:36:18] <Kev> Deep Packet Inspection.
[12:36:20] <flow> deep packet inspection?
[12:36:35] <Kev> Which I'm abusing as a term to mean 'look inside the payloads'.
[12:36:52] *** Lance has left the room
[12:37:51] *** Lance has joined the room
[12:37:51] *** Lance shows as "away"
[12:38:47] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[12:38:58] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[12:40:40] *** blabla has left the room
[12:41:52] <MattJ> The problem with the annotation is that it feels like it's undermining the point of routing2 in the first place
[12:42:58] <MattJ> If we're going to annotate, let's just annotate and we don't need to make any other changes
[12:43:17] <MattJ> and that's basically hints, but with a stronger definition of how to process them
[12:43:43] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:44:15] *** Alex has left the room
[12:44:30] <Kev> MattJ: Maybe, perhaps.
[12:45:07] <Kev> What else would you annotate, though?
[12:46:13] <MattJ> Exactly - nothing
[12:46:46] <MattJ> So XMPP2 is XMPP1 with annotations on stuff you want to treat as ephemeral
[12:47:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:47:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:47:41] <Kev> And changed routing rules for anything that's not annotated?
[12:48:12] <Kev> And clients need to know to ignore anything in an annotated message, because it shouldn't be getting them.
[12:48:38] <Kev> I don't know, I'm kinda concerned that people are going to go down the "Oh, let's annotated such-and-such special casing" like we have with no-copy and no-store at the moment.
[12:48:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:48:39] <MattJ> Indeed
[12:48:48] <Kev> In principle, it's technically equivalent.
[12:49:24] <Kev> I still feel we might want to start sending messages from the bare JID instead of the full JID.
[12:49:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:49:39] <MattJ> from or to?
[12:49:43] <Kev> From.
[12:49:46] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:49:47] <MattJ> I hadn't considered changing from
[12:49:48] <Kev> You certainly want to be sending to the bare JID.
[12:50:06] *** jubalh has left the room
[12:50:22] <Kev> Although if we're saying "treat all messages to a full JID as to a bare JID unless they have an ephemeral annotation", that may be reduced, I guess.
[12:51:13] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:51:20] *** bear has left the room
[12:51:28] <Maranda> Hmm conversations lost the message I sent here this morning from the backlog hm hm
[12:51:31] <Kev> I need to find time to write some specific words here, so we can bash them, I think.
[12:51:45] <Ge0rG> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151974573718360&w=2 - Alright, I'm not complaining about XMPP protocol design any more
[12:52:53] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[12:53:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[12:53:32] *** dwd has left the room
[12:55:45] <jonasw> Ge0rG, lol
[12:55:46] *** dwd shows as "online"
[12:56:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:56:29] *** jubalh has joined the room
[12:56:41] *** dwd has left the room
[12:57:19] *** Guus has left the room
[12:58:41] <Ge0rG> Yup. OpenSSL. Still written by monkeys.
[12:59:56] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[13:00:17] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:00:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:01:24] *** Alex has joined the room
[13:01:39] *** daniel has left the room
[13:01:46] *** @Alacer has left the room
[13:02:39] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:02:40] *** Guus has left the room
[13:02:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:02:41] *** dwd has left the room
[13:04:20] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:04:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:05:36] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:05:51] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[13:07:26] <moparisthebest> Random question without much thought, why can't the one true message id be implicit as the hash of the whole stanza?
[13:08:12] <SaltyBones> It's hard to define what should go into the hash and then some "things" change those things anyway so the ID would change...
[13:08:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[13:08:45] <moparisthebest> But isn't just hash the entire thing good enough?
[13:08:58] *** Guus has left the room
[13:08:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:08:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:08:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:09:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:09:35] <SaltyBones> moparisthebest, yesterday I would have said yes but now it is clear that people don't just want unique IDs they want very specific IDs and pick them themselves.
[13:09:36] *** Guus has left the room
[13:09:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:09:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[13:09:50] <moparisthebest> They can still do that
[13:10:13] <SaltyBones> moparisthebest, just read the backlog from today :)
[13:10:25] <moparisthebest> The public one is the hash, they can use whatever as the private one
[13:10:57] <moparisthebest> Encoding implementation decisions into the protocol seems wrong
[13:11:08] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[13:11:09] <moparisthebest> Especially when it has loads of downsides
[13:11:24] <MattJ> moparisthebest, hashing XML is problematic, and in any case the same stanza may change en-route
[13:11:28] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[13:11:31] *** Kev shows as "away"
[13:11:54] <MattJ> Unless you're saying it's just hashed after the first hop
[13:12:09] *** Martin has joined the room
[13:12:12] *** Martin shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[13:12:16] *** Martin shows as "online"
[13:12:35] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[13:12:45] <goffi> I was thinking about hash too, but the issue with hash is that you have to find one without collision. If you change, you'll break all existing ecosystem.
[13:13:30] <SaltyBones> moparisthebest, the problem is that we leak the private one because it is required for MAM queries.
[13:13:38] <SaltyBones> see my 13:25 comment :)
[13:15:19] *** Guus has left the room
[13:16:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:17:16] *** dwd shows as "online"
[13:17:27] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:17:47] <Kev> moparisthebest: Stanzas might change at every hop. So you can't just hash the whole thing.
[13:18:17] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[13:18:24] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest [14:11]:
> Encoding implementation decisions into the protocol seems wrong
Hashing parts of a message into its id is just that
[13:18:26] <Kev> goffi: Hashes changing is a solved problem, at least, you just specify the hash used.
[13:19:00] *** Martin has left the room
[13:19:28] <Ge0rG> We could just replace messages with their cryptographic ids and become the next peer to peer distributed content storage network
[13:19:45] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:19:48] <goffi> Kev: yes, but what for already emitted IDs ?
[13:20:02] <Kev> goffi: They don't have an embedded scheme.
[13:20:07] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:20:41] *** dwd has left the room
[13:21:19] *** Guus has left the room
[13:21:20] *** Guus has left the room
[13:22:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:22:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:22:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:23:14] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[13:23:22] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[13:23:44] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[13:24:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:24:40] *** tux shows as "away"
[13:24:55] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:25:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:25:50] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[13:26:37] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, I'm not saying hashing parts, that gets complicated, I'm saying hash the entire thing
[13:27:01] <moparisthebest> as to changing at server hops, doesn't the id only matter between client and their server?
[13:27:01] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:27:10] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:27:14] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:28:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:28:55] <moparisthebest> so my client sends a message which I know has id AAAA because that's the hash
[13:28:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:29:05] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[13:29:15] <moparisthebest> my server can change it, if it does, it sends me back a message telling me AAAA is now BBBB
[13:29:41] <moparisthebest> does that not solve everything?
[13:29:52] <Kev> No the idea matters between endpoint entities.
[13:30:01] <Kev> No the id matters between endpoint entities.
[13:30:39] <moparisthebest> if any server can change the message, the id can only matter between a client and their server?
[13:30:42] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:31:19] <Kev> No, the id matters end to end.
[13:31:25] <Kev> But the content of a stanza might be changed at any hop.
[13:31:35] <Kev> So hashing to generate an id doesn't work.
[13:31:35] *** rion has left the room
[13:31:46] <moparisthebest> so now you might have an id that is the same and different contents?
[13:31:50] <moparisthebest> what's the point exactly?
[13:32:02] <Kev> See <delay/> for an obvious application.
[13:32:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:32:43] <moparisthebest> what's the point in a@a.com having the same id as b@b.com ?
[13:32:59] <moparisthebest> surely it only matters between a@a.com and a.com, and b@b.com and b.com ?
[13:33:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:34:08] *** jere has left the room
[13:34:13] *** jere has joined the room
[13:34:55] *** @Alacer has left the room
[13:35:37] <Kev> Because otherwise you can't reply to previous messages, which you obviously need to be able to do.
[13:36:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:36:29] <moparisthebest> wait where is this concept of replying to a specific message?
[13:36:39] <moparisthebest> as far as I'm aware, there is just a guaranteed order and that's it
[13:36:41] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[13:36:52] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[13:37:29] *** lumi shows as "online"
[13:37:29] <Kev> In assorted XEPs.
[13:37:41] <Kev> LMC, Receipts, ...
[13:38:10] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:38:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:38:37] <Ge0rG> You'd have to track the message id associations for all eternity.
[13:39:06] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[13:40:10] <moparisthebest> it sounds flawed at a basic level, in a federated system, where a message can change at any server hop, how can you expect an id to refer to remotely the same thing on opposite servers?
[13:40:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:40:47] <moparisthebest> but really hashing would still work right? the server knows the incoming hash and the outgoing hash
[13:40:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:41:02] <moparisthebest> when it gets a read receipt etc etc, it just reverse maps it on the way out?
[13:41:45] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, you need to track that anyway because read receipts, right?
[13:41:53] <SaltyBones> I mean the client has to do it not the server but still..
[13:42:47] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: the client won't know the effective id between server a and server b
[13:43:01] <moparisthebest> and doesn't need to Ge0rG ?
[13:43:17] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: yes, you need to reverse map, for the lifetime of the message. Which might be months.
[13:43:20] <moparisthebest> a@a.com can't talk directly to b.com
[13:43:32] <moparisthebest> sure
[13:43:48] <Holger> moparisthebest: Message contents aren't unique so you can't use a hash as an ID.
[13:43:54] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:44:32] *** daniel has left the room
[13:44:36] <jonasw> inb4 nonce
[13:45:01] <moparisthebest> Holger, I don't understand what you mean, I mean hash an entire stanza for an id
[13:45:02] <jonasw> moparisthebest, you can’t reasonably expect a re-writing server to map between IDs for all eternity, *plus* to know all protocols where message IDs may be referenced
[13:45:22] <moparisthebest> if you rewrite, you map, easy
[13:45:35] <moparisthebest> shouldn't need to know any specific protocols?
[13:45:37] <Holger> moparisthebest: Entire stanza contents aren't unique either.
[13:45:39] *** @Alacer has joined the room
[13:46:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:46:08] <jonasw> moparisthebest, a server would have to re-write a clients reference to another ID, e.g. for XEP-0184 (reciepts) or Last MEssage Correction.
[13:46:19] <moparisthebest> Holger, I don't understand, if 2 stanzas hash to the same id they are the same stanza
[13:46:31] <Holger> moparisthebest: But they are still two stanzas.
[13:46:31] <jonasw> moparisthebest, but maybe sent at a different time.
[13:46:40] <moparisthebest> no they are just 1 stanza
[13:46:41] <jonasw> like "that’s a good idea", I send that maybe ten times a week in here
[13:46:59] <jonasw> a stanza is always its context
[13:47:01] <Holger> moparisthebest: Hah what?!
[13:47:03] <jonasw> (aaand here we are at matrix’ DAG thing)
[13:47:06] <Maranda> Do I have to mention what kind of hard fail hashes are? Does DKIM ring a bell?
[13:47:11] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[13:47:14] <moparisthebest> storage-wise you store them once etc?
[13:47:17] <jonasw> Maranda, yeah, good point
[13:47:21] <jonasw> oh my god
[13:47:24] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:47:47] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[13:48:10] *** Kev shows as "away"
[13:48:38] <Holger> moparisthebest: "etc" :-)
[13:48:55] <Holger> moparisthebest: What jonasw said.
[13:49:00] <moparisthebest> ah you are saying if you send the exact same stanza every day or something, got it
[13:49:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[13:49:33] *** rtq3 has left the room
[13:49:37] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:49:41] <moparisthebest> but maybe the rest would work? if id's are only valid per-hop
[13:50:15] <moparisthebest> and anything rewriting the id keeps a map for as long as needed?
[13:50:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[13:51:05] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:51:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:51:31] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:51:31] <jonasw> moparisthebest, how long is "as needed"?
[13:51:32] <jonasw> eternity?
[13:51:50] <moparisthebest> well for a server it'd be as long as it had the message
[13:51:53] <jonasw> especially with non-IM use cases I can imagine "as long as needed" can be quite a while
[13:51:54] <Holger> moparisthebest: So you're hashing contents and keeping a map because the contents of a given stanza may change and ignoring the fact that different stanzas might have identical stanzas. But apart from that hashing contents sounds like a perfect solution yes.
[13:51:58] <moparisthebest> in mam/smacks/offline storage
[13:52:02] <jonasw> moparisthebest, what about references to that message?
[13:52:07] <Holger> *identical contents
[13:52:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[13:52:14] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:52:15] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:52:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:52:24] <moparisthebest> Holger, no I've scrapped hashing :P
[13:52:30] <Holger> Ah.
[13:53:02] <moparisthebest> jonasw, surely those are only good while there is something to reference?
[13:53:12] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:53:15] *** intosi has joined the room
[13:53:23] *** Zash has left the room
[13:53:33] <jonasw> moparisthebest, another server might have a MAM for longer than you do
[13:53:33] <Maranda> moparisthebest, good boy that's for the best 🤗
[13:53:43] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:54:08] <Maranda> (scrapping hashes)
[13:54:46] <moparisthebest> Maranda, to be fair that was my first question (if you want to uniquely identify a message why wouldn't hashing work?)
[13:55:08] <moparisthebest> to which the answer was, we need to uniquely identify a message as well as it's position in the stream
[13:55:28] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:55:38] <Kev> There were many answers, and I think that's one of the few things that wasn't an answer.
[13:55:39] <moparisthebest> jonasw, in which case it has a map?
[13:55:47] <Maranda> I guess that was plentily answered already by multiple sources about the "why"
[13:55:57] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:55:58] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:56:11] <moparisthebest> the answers I saw about hashing were 'well you have to decide what to hash' which is different
[13:57:23] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[13:57:33] <Maranda> Beside that attempting to reinvent "a DKIM version" for stanzas/xmpp is a horrifying thought 😘
[13:58:01] <jonasw> Maranda, but SPIM!!kk
[13:58:30] <moparisthebest> dkim is an entirely different solution for an entirely different problem
[13:58:38] <moparisthebest> that xmpp already has solved from day 1
[13:58:49] *** lumi shows as "online"
[13:58:55] <moparisthebest> (that problem is, is server X allowed to send messages for domain Y)
[13:59:01] <Ge0rG> Can't we just store the message content on the blockchain and only exchange message IDs?
[14:00:51] <moparisthebest> so what's the problem with a simple solution like, client sets id, if any server changes it it keeps a map, the end?
[14:01:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:01:25] *** rion has joined the room
[14:01:26] <moparisthebest> servers don't *have* to change it, but if they do, they keep a map
[14:03:08] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:04:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[14:06:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:07:48] <Maranda> moparisthebest, sorry to contradict but that's not what DKIM ultimately *does*, not that it's important though.
[14:08:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:08:17] <moparisthebest> that's the goal isn't it Maranda ?
[14:08:54] *** dwd has left the room
[14:08:59] *** intosi shows as "online"
[14:09:12] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[14:09:16] <Maranda> Nope DKIM is more about message authentication, contraffaction and tampering prevention.
[14:09:39] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[14:10:02] <moparisthebest> I think it has that side-effect because of the hashing, but the goal was server-that-sent-this-was-authorized-by-domain
[14:10:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:10:35] <Maranda> You're confusing with SPF me thinks.. And both are failing that's why they had to invent a third, DMARC that somehow fails too.
[14:10:52] <moparisthebest> and there are 2 methods, SPF doesn't hash but is only useable at first hop, and DKIM hashes and is therefore useable through multiple hops (as long as no servers change the hashed part :))
[14:11:10] <Holger> > DKIM provides a method for validating a domain name identity that is associated with a message through cryptographic authentication.

http://dkim.org/
[14:11:13] <moparisthebest> DMARC is not a 3rd, it's just enforcing/reporting on SPF and DKIM ?
[14:11:21] *** Alex has left the room
[14:11:39] *** remko shows as "away"
[14:12:05] <moparisthebest> still unsure why we are discussing this, XMPP already guarantees the sending server is authorized by the domain
[14:13:19] <Holger> Someone mentioned DKIM out of the blue, someone else responded :-)
[14:13:24] <Holger> I'd like to get back to FTP again!
[14:13:30] <Maranda> DMARC, nope not just reporting, and I'd avoid reading just introductions. Saves headache laters.
[14:14:07] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:14:36] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[14:14:36] *** intosi has left the room
[14:15:21] <moparisthebest> I said it was enforcing and reporting
[14:15:24] <moparisthebest> and that's all it is?
[14:16:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:16:16] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:16:38] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:16:46] <Maranda> You did? Oh you did I'm blind apologies blame the cold exposure 😆
[14:17:09] <moparisthebest> that's fully understandable, unfortunately :)
[14:19:22] <Maranda> That was a grotesque example to explain how inadeguate I think hashes are in stanzas context, no big deal anyways. Brb.
[14:20:01] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:20:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:20:04] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:20:46] <Kev> Holger: Servers change IDs per-hop based on a hash of the contents, store the mapping between IDs, entities fetch the mapping over FTP and do the lookups there. Address of the FTP server is stored in a blockchain.
[14:21:11] <Kev> You're welcome.
[14:22:10] <moparisthebest> I feel like you're missing an opportunity to use GOPHER in there someplace
[14:22:11] <Holger> Kev: Perfect!
[14:22:22] *** remko shows as "online"
[14:23:33] <Dave Cridland> Can we guarantee forward secrecy of ids?
[14:23:48] <Kev> Yes, but not perfectly.
[14:25:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:25:03] <Dave Cridland> Also, no need to use a hash. We could base64 the entire stanza into the id attribute.
[14:25:19] <Dave Cridland> No collisions, and no need for hash agility then.
[14:26:10] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, ELOOP
[14:26:13] <Holger> We base64 the stanza including the original id attribute and then replace it with the result?
[14:26:48] <Dave Cridland> Without the id attribute, obviously. It'll solve the c14n problem.
[14:26:54] <Kev> Holger: No, you base64 it including the *new* id.
[14:27:07] <Holger> Ah. Now it makes sense to me.
[14:27:13] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[14:27:21] <Kev> Else the stanza's changing and you'd need a new id.
[14:27:27] <Dave Cridland> Kev, I don't know why you're being silly. My suggestion was practical, and just as sensible as all the others.
[14:27:38] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, it’s possible to do
[14:27:44] <Kev> One of those two statements is true.
[14:27:48] <jonasw> since there’s no length field, you can put the resul… nevermind
[14:27:51] <jonasw> oh my god
[14:27:53] <jonasw> I really should get to sleep
[14:27:54] <MattJ> I just switched to this tab, I can't tell what's a joke and what's not any more
[14:28:02] <jonasw> MattJ, assume everything is
[14:28:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:28:07] <Kev> MattJ: That's the joke.
[14:28:25] <Tobias> and don't forget, today is opposite day :)
[14:28:41] *** Zash has joined the room
[14:28:45] <Dave Cridland> Tobias, OR IS IT!!?!??!!
[14:29:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:30:30] *** pep. shows as "online"
[14:30:46] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:32:05] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:32:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:33:43] *** jubalh has left the room
[14:33:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[14:34:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:34:10] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:34:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:35:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:35:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[14:35:21] *** andy has joined the room
[14:36:33] *** blabla has left the room
[14:37:41] *** lumi shows as "online"
[14:37:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:39:12] *** Yagiza has left the room
[14:39:15] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[14:39:26] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[14:39:52] *** remko shows as "away"
[14:40:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:44:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:45:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:46:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:48:12] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[14:48:29] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[14:49:17] *** lumi shows as "online"
[14:51:00] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:51:17] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:51:19] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:51:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:52:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:53:36] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:54:01] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:54:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:55:31] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:55:34] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[14:56:31] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[14:58:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:59:32] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:00:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:02:35] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[15:03:37] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:03:46] *** lumi shows as "online"
[15:04:10] *** j.r has joined the room
[15:05:06] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:06:02] *** andy has left the room
[15:07:27] *** Alex has joined the room
[15:07:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[15:08:13] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:09:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:11:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:13:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:13:44] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:14:00] <SaltyBones> So, to bring it back a bit. It seems this view is currently popular: The server needs to pick his own IDs, the client needs to use these IDs for MAM queries and we will add reflection so that using reflection and carbons a client gets copies of all its messages to have those IDs.
[15:14:05] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[15:14:09] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:14:56] <moparisthebest> why is it more important for the server to pick it's own IDs than the client?
[15:15:18] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:15:52] <Kev> Concrete proposal: Set origin-ID uniquely on the client, add another id any time something archives it and wants it available, reflect that id back to the first client on first hop. Set the stanza id to the same as the origin-id, but generally ignore it and use the origin-id where available in things like LMC.
[15:15:59] <SaltyBones> I don't think it is an issue of what is more important it's just that the server writers want to do that. I am not one so I cannot tell you why. :)
[15:16:13] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[15:16:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:16:46] <moparisthebest> so I propose they can do whatever they want, they just need to keep a map?
[15:17:16] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: keeeping a map is a hard task.
[15:17:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:17:37] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: also actually replacing all references according to the map, because you don't know what's a reference and what's just random data.
[15:17:38] <moparisthebest> I'm pretty sure it's one of the simplest tasks in computer science
[15:17:52] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, true but now we need the client to keep the map or to change the ID of old messages or something...it also seems hard :)
[15:17:59] <moparisthebest> it's not naming, cache invalidation, or off-by-one errors :P
[15:18:19] <Kev> No, it's two of those things in one :)
[15:18:21] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: actually it is a part of cache invalidation.
[15:18:23] <Zash> Off by one naming of invalid caches
[15:19:00] <SaltyBones> But the point stands, doesn't the work still have to be done but now it must be done by the client?
[15:19:11] *** lumi shows as "online"
[15:19:25] <Kev> No.
[15:19:48] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:19:58] <SaltyBones> It needs the origin-ID for references and the stanza-ID for MAM queries....
[15:20:23] <Kev> It doesn't need any mapping.
[15:20:30] <moparisthebest> I thought the point was to hose all those and go to 1 id ?
[15:20:32] <Ge0rG> and the message ID in case the origin-ID gets stripped
[15:20:58] <Kev> Ge0rG: I suggest (and it's a novel suggestion, because I know no-one's suggested it before) setting the id to the same as the origin id.
[15:20:59] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:21:28] <Ge0rG> Kev: you'll never get the author convinced to do that
[15:22:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:22:47] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[15:23:00] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[15:23:12] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[15:23:35] <SaltyBones> Kev, I'm not sure I agree that keeping two IDs for messages is very different from a mapping... :)
[15:24:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:24:29] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: the client needs to keep an index on the origin-ID, but probably not on the MAM ID
[15:24:53] <Ge0rG> I need to look up messages by origin-ID for LMC and ACKs, but not when fetching an archive
[15:25:16] <SaltyBones> Don't you have to merge the local and MAM archive somehow?
[15:25:16] <moparisthebest> in fact I think keeping 2 id's and an index on one is the very definition of a map
[15:25:19] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[15:25:53] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, I sent you an email with https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593 for the council agenda :/
[15:25:58] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: the difference is that on the client, you store that as part of the message DB, and you can clean it up together with the messages
[15:26:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:26:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:26:30] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:26:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:27:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[15:27:10] *** dwd has left the room
[15:27:36] <Kev> SaltyBones: These are logically two different things. You need (temporarily) a way of correlating messages and their replies ,which is origin-id. For MAM sync you only need a single ID, which is the latest thing to go in the archive that you've seen (and, depending on your model, even that is optional).
[15:27:52] <Kev> I don't see a situation in which you ever need to map between the two.
[15:28:00] *** jubalh has joined the room
[15:28:13] <moparisthebest> so what if the client sets an id, and if the server wants to change it, it just sends that info back to the client and doesn't keep a map?
[15:28:26] <moparisthebest> what's the downside of a single id ?
[15:28:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:28:39] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it won't work.
[15:29:07] <moparisthebest> why not?
[15:29:10] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[15:29:31] <Ge0rG> I'm sure this has been outlined in here multiple times today
[15:29:37] <moparisthebest> client sends id=A, server sends back A is now B, client changes id=A to id=B, done?
[15:29:47] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:30:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:30:02] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:30:38] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: what if the client disconnects after sending A?
[15:30:59] <moparisthebest> smacks/mam handles all that
[15:31:28] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: except when you don't know that A is B now and the smacks session expires
[15:32:00] <moparisthebest> B still gets it with mam though
[15:32:09] <moparisthebest> and C who knows nothing about id=A just ignores it
[15:32:13] <SaltyBones> Kev, it seemed to be annoying for client devs to handle the different kinds of IDs and merge them and use the appropriate one everywhere but maybe I just misunderstood...
[15:32:26] <moparisthebest> it seems to be annoying for both client and server devs
[15:32:57] <Kev> SaltyBones: I don't think it's a significant problem, just that sometimes people aren't sure which id to use.
[15:33:17] <Kev> (Because everything that talks about the id was written back when there was only the stanza id, and so didn't need to be explicit which one)
[15:33:22] <Ge0rG> e) none of the above.
[15:33:22] <moparisthebest> which turns out to be the significant problem
[15:33:24] <SaltyBones> Yeah, maybe. From this far away I really can't tell how I would handle syncing local history with mam :)
[15:34:06] <MattJ> There is only one id that MAM is concerned about, ignore everything else
[15:34:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:35:10] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:35:22] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:35:31] *** lumi shows as "online"
[15:36:34] <SaltyBones> Sure, so clients will store everything with origin-ID first, then add the stanza-ID when they receive the reflection and then just merge in other messages from MAM based on that, right?
[15:38:41] *** dwd has left the room
[15:38:45] *** andy has joined the room
[15:39:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:39:22] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:39:58] <moparisthebest> I mean when everything gets this wrong you can pretend it's not a problem, just like everyone did for years with XHTML-IM, that doesn't make it not-a-problem though
[15:41:05] <MattJ> SaltyBones, personally I don't really understand why origin-id exists
[15:41:11] <moparisthebest> and to be clear I don't mean in the future things might get this wrong, I mean essentially any newly written thing gets this wrong now
[15:41:32] <Ge0rG> MattJ: because of MUC reflections.
[15:41:37] <SaltyBones> MattJ, I think most people agree that it is superfluous and should be the same as message-ID.
[15:41:52] <MattJ> Ge0rG, and I think servers breaking MUC reflections are broken
[15:41:53] <Ge0rG> and because back in 2014, somebody refused to mandate that MUCs shall retain the ID on reflection.
[15:42:08] <MattJ> so lets do that now, because 99% of servers get this right
[15:42:18] <Ge0rG> MattJ: OK. I'll revive the thread.
[15:42:25] <MattJ> and stop making this id discussion so much more confusing
[15:42:55] *** rion has left the room
[15:43:14] <MattJ> As I recall the most vocal opponent to mandating id preservation since changed their mind
[15:43:28] <Ge0rG> Okay, the other reason was that on origin-id you can assume client-enforced uniqueness, which you can't on @id
[15:43:54] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[15:43:54] <SaltyBones> what?
[15:44:03] <MattJ> So then we're back to stanza-id for tracking between you and your server, and @id for end-to-end tracking
[15:44:06] <SaltyBones> why would a client be able to generate unique origin-ID but not unique message-ID?
[15:44:11] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[15:44:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[15:44:24] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:44:24] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: a client isn't *guaranteed* to generate a unique @id
[15:44:37] <MattJ> Who cares?
[15:44:43] <Ge0rG> I don't know.
[15:44:54] <Ge0rG> maybe people doing references.
[15:45:06] <MattJ> The only entity concerned with the uniqueness of @id are clients that generate them
[15:45:23] <Zash> Reference them*
[15:45:24] <SaltyBones> But if it *can* generate a unique origin-ID it can generate a unique message-ID, yes? :)
[15:45:25] <Ge0rG> MattJ: clients that process incoming @id's too, for references and ACKs
[15:45:28] <MattJ> so if you're doing receipts/LMC/etc. then just be sure you generate sensible ids
[15:45:31] <SaltyBones> But if it *can* generate a unique origin-ID it can generate a unique message-ID, can't it? :)
[15:45:35] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:45:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:45:45] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: yes. But with @id you don't know from the outside, with origin-id you do
[15:46:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:46:03] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:46:04] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, you mean it's not mandated in the spec?
[15:46:18] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: no. @id is optional
[15:46:26] <MattJ> SaltyBones, that's the whole root of this discussion
[15:46:37] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: you could send all your messages with id="badgerbadger"
[15:46:55] <SaltyBones> MattJ, maybe, I'm haven't been around long enough to have seen the root of this discussion. ;)
[15:47:24] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-July/028988.html
[15:47:38] *** jjrh has left the room
[15:47:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:47:49] <MattJ> @id is optional and controlled entirely by the sending client, nobody except that client can use it for anything. If you generate an error reply, you reflect the id attribute, that's all
[15:47:49] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, ...I can't even imagine that "it seemed like a good idea at the time"
[15:48:19] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: MUC is full of such ideas.
[15:48:23] <MattJ> Second problem is that some MUC server(s?) did not preserve the id attribute in MUC rooms, which broke some clients when they received their own messages back with a different id attribute
[15:48:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:48:42] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:48:42] <flow> > Ge0rG> SaltyBones: you could send all your messages with id="badgerbadger"
[15:48:47] <flow> I don't think this is true
[15:48:59] <flow> at least for messages part of the same session
[15:49:50] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:50:00] <Ge0rG> flow:
> It is up to the originating entity whether the value of the 'id' attribute is unique only within its current stream or unique globally.
[15:50:13] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[15:50:22] <Ge0rG> flow: now I could join this MUC with a multi-session nick, reset my session after each MUC message and you'd end up full of badgers.
[15:50:40] <Ge0rG> or do the same to you via type=chat.
[15:51:01] <flow> Right, but not within the same session/stream. I just wanted to clarify that
[15:51:02] <Ge0rG> @id is an end-to-end property, so binding it to the session lifetime doesn't make any sense.
[15:51:16] <Ge0rG> flow: technically you are correct.
[15:51:35] <flow> just a matter of the definiton of end"
[15:51:46] <Ge0rG> Winter's coming!
[15:52:00] *** intosi has joined the room
[15:52:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:52:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:52:41] <Zash> Nah, noh it ends
[15:53:11] <SaltyBones> So, to sum up: Add reflection of messages to make it easier to figure out how to query MAM otherwise everything has to be the way it is...?
[15:54:01] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[15:54:52] <SaltyBones> Maybe document better what every kind of ID is used for to make it easier for devs?
[15:54:53] *** remko shows as "online"
[15:55:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:55:16] *** tim@boese-ban.de has left the room
[15:55:23] *** daniel has left the room
[15:55:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:55:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:55:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[15:56:14] <MattJ> As far as I'm concerned there is one id set by the client and one id set by the server
[15:57:10] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:57:26] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:57:45] <flow> <origin-id/> was invented mostly a workaround for the MUC reflection issue
[15:57:58] <SaltyBones> MattJ, ...and the client set one is origin-ID the server set one is stanza-ID.
[15:58:16] <MattJ> I strongly feel that origin-id should go
[15:58:27] <MattJ> and that any broken MUC services should be fixed
[15:58:53] <Ge0rG> flow: except it doesn't actually solve it, as seen with biboumi.
[15:59:01] <SaltyBones> Okay, so move origin-ID to message-ID and forbid rewriting.
[15:59:10] <flow> Ge0rG, m0ar pls
[15:59:27] *** lumi shows as "online"
[15:59:34] <Ge0rG> I'll bring it up on council.
[15:59:43] <MattJ> flow, summary is that transports can't always preserve it
[15:59:46] <flow> SaltyBones, why move? just use rfc6120 IDs like before
[16:00:02] *** daniel has left the room
[16:00:05] <SaltyBones> I mean conceptually, move the responsibility...
[16:00:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:00:07] <MattJ> which puts them in the "broken MUC server" category as far as I'm concerned
[16:00:52] <Kev> FWIW, transports don't have to be written in such a way as they lose them.
[16:01:16] <SaltyBones> Kev, what?
[16:01:27] <SaltyBones> Kev, what? parse_error
[16:02:07] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[16:02:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:03:00] *** xnyhps has joined the room
[16:04:46] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:07:15] *** daniel has left the room
[16:07:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:08:59] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:09:19] *** Guus has left the room
[16:10:15] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:10:15] *** intosi has left the room
[16:11:19] <Kev> The ids
[16:11:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:11:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[16:12:14] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[16:12:15] *** andy has left the room
[16:12:15] *** andy has joined the room
[16:12:32] *** daniel has left the room
[16:12:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:15:05] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:15:23] *** Lance has left the room
[16:15:27] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:15:45] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[16:16:45] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:16:48] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:17:18] *** lumi shows as "online"
[16:18:50] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:18:52] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:21:49] *** j.r has joined the room
[16:22:31] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:22:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:22:54] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:22:57] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:23:33] *** daniel has left the room
[16:23:37] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:23:51] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:24:04] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:24:05] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:24:05] *** daniel has left the room
[16:24:06] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:24:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:25:14] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:25:42] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:26:08] *** Lance has joined the room
[16:26:08] *** Lance shows as "online"
[16:26:12] <Maranda> Biboumi... 🤔
[16:26:46] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[16:26:51] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:26:52] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:26:53] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:27:12] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:27:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:27:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:27:13] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:28:20] *** Lance has left the room
[16:28:22] *** Lance has joined the room
[16:28:24] *** Lance shows as "online"
[16:29:12] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:29:16] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:34:07] *** lovetox has joined the room
[16:34:14] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:34:16] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:34:41] *** tux has left the room
[16:35:45] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[16:37:34] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[16:39:09] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:39:16] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[16:40:18] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:40:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[16:40:59] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:41:01] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:42:33] *** Alex shows as "online"
[16:43:37] *** remko shows as "away"
[16:47:47] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:48:41] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[16:48:41] *** mimi89999 has left the room
[16:49:28] *** mimi89999 has joined the room
[16:49:46] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[16:49:58] *** daniel has left the room
[16:50:02] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:50:30] *** lumi shows as "online"
[16:52:01] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:52:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:54:34] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:55:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:55:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:57:53] *** peter has joined the room
[16:58:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:02:17] *** andy has left the room
[17:02:21] *** andy has joined the room
[17:02:52] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:04:34] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:04:36] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[17:05:45] *** marmistrz has left the room
[17:06:20] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[17:08:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:08:55] *** daniel has left the room
[17:09:00] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:10:04] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[17:10:20] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:11:33] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:11:35] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[17:12:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:12:47] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:13:16] *** daniel has left the room
[17:13:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:14:14] *** lumi shows as "online"
[17:15:51] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[17:15:53] *** daniel has left the room
[17:15:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:18:50] *** daniel has left the room
[17:18:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:19:45] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[17:20:43] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:20:50] *** Guus has left the room
[17:20:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:25:10] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[17:25:29] *** rtq3 has left the room
[17:25:36] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[17:26:54] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:26:54] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:27:00] *** lumi shows as "online"
[17:29:07] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:30:14] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:30:40] *** tux shows as "online"
[17:31:22] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:31:54] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:33:19] *** Guus has left the room
[17:33:30] *** daniel has left the room
[17:33:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:33:45] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:35:14] *** marmistrz has left the room
[17:35:44] *** Yagiza has left the room
[17:36:08] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:36:31] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[17:36:42] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[17:37:06] *** daniel has left the room
[17:37:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:41:54] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:42:12] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[17:42:36] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:42:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:43:48] *** peter shows as "online"
[17:45:00] *** Lance has left the room
[17:45:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:45:28] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:47:12] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:50:56] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:50:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:51:14] *** Lance has joined the room
[17:51:15] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:51:41] *** nyco shows as "online"
[17:51:45] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:52:29] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:53:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:53:38] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:53:44] *** nyco has left the room
[17:53:48] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[17:54:14] *** nyco shows as "online"
[17:57:26] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[17:57:54] *** lumi shows as "online"
[17:59:06] *** Lance has left the room
[17:59:36] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:59:53] *** rtq3 has left the room
[18:00:22] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:00:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:01:27] *** suzyo has joined the room
[18:01:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:01:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:03:00] *** Nekit shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:03:08] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:03:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:03:38] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:04:01] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[18:04:36] *** daniel has left the room
[18:05:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:05:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:05:20] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:05:22] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[18:06:53] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:08:24] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:09:36] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:11:01] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:12:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:13:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:13:12] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:14:03] *** tux has left the room
[18:14:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:14:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:14:55] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:15:45] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:16:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:16:28] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[18:17:14] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:17:19] *** jubalh has left the room
[18:17:31] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:17:43] *** winfried shows as "online"
[18:17:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:18:02] *** waqas has left the room
[18:18:04] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:18:05] *** waqas has left the room
[18:18:38] *** waqas has joined the room
[18:21:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:21:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:21:52] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[18:22:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:22:14] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[18:22:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:22:52] *** daniel has left the room
[18:22:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:24:38] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:24:38] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[18:25:14] *** daniel has left the room
[18:25:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:25:37] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:25:40] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:25:41] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:25:43] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[18:26:52] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:26:52] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:28:01] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:28:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:28:48] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:28:59] *** Guus has left the room
[18:28:59] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:29:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:29:41] *** daniel has left the room
[18:29:45] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:30:39] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[18:30:39] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[18:31:00] *** rtq3 has left the room
[18:31:11] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[18:32:04] *** xnyhps has left the room
[18:32:13] *** xnyhps has joined the room
[18:33:27] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:33:31] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:33:31] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:33:31] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:33:34] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:33:34] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:33:49] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:34:08] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:38:00] *** waqas has left the room
[18:38:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:39:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:39:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:39:49] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:40:38] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[18:40:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:40:45] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[18:40:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:41:02] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:41:31] *** lskdjf has left the room
[18:41:32] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:41:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:41:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:41:55] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:42:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:42:25] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:42:44] *** Yagiza has left the room
[18:43:02] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:43:27] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:43:34] *** Guus has left the room
[18:43:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:44:34] *** Kev has left the room
[18:45:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:45:46] *** daniel has left the room
[18:46:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:46:12] *** Kev has joined the room
[18:46:13] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:46:41] *** rtq3 has left the room
[18:47:51] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[18:48:26] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:49:28] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:49:44] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[18:49:59] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:52:16] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:53:02] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:54:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:54:19] *** Guus has left the room
[18:54:44] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[18:56:38] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:59:11] *** rtq3 has left the room
[18:59:17] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[19:00:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:00:06] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:03:22] *** Alex has left the room
[19:03:39] *** Alex has joined the room
[19:03:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:04:47] *** lskdjf has left the room
[19:04:47] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:05:07] *** lskdjf has left the room
[19:05:08] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:05:46] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:05:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:07:11] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:08:19] *** tux has joined the room
[19:08:26] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:09:00] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:10:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:10:06] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:10:14] *** intosi has joined the room
[19:10:17] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:10:19] *** intosi shows as "online"
[19:18:00] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:22:59] *** winfried shows as "online"
[19:24:55] *** efrit has joined the room
[19:25:03] *** daniel has left the room
[19:25:15] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:26:03] *** rtq3 has left the room
[19:26:04] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:26:12] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[19:27:04] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:27:14] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:28:16] *** marmistrz has left the room
[19:30:43] *** lskdjf has left the room
[19:30:43] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:31:08] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:36:02] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:36:29] *** intosi has left the room
[19:38:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:40:27] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:41:19] *** Lance shows as "away"
[19:42:19] *** Guus has left the room
[19:42:26] *** intosi has joined the room
[19:42:30] *** goffi has left the room
[19:45:28] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:47:20] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:48:46] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:50:41] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:52:20] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:53:54] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:54:24] *** waqas has joined the room
[19:54:25] *** waqas has left the room
[19:55:43] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:56:32] <SaltyBones> Kev, ah, you're saying that transports can always be written in such a way that they do not lose IDs?
[19:56:54] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:56:57] <moparisthebest> not if it's impossible to keep a map of IDs >:)
[19:57:52] *** Alex has left the room
[19:58:17] *** andy has left the room
[19:59:12] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:59:12] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:59:32] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:59:38] *** Alex has joined the room
[19:59:48] *** Lance has left the room
[20:01:05] <Kev> SaltyBones: At the cost of complexity.
[20:01:39] <SaltyBones> Sure, sure
[20:02:47] <SaltyBones> Yeah forbidding ID mangling seems like it would be a very same thing to do
[20:03:14] <SaltyBones> Should standza-IDs be transmitted btw? Or is that between client and server only?
[20:03:34] <SaltyBones> s/same/sane
[20:05:19] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:07:07] *** rtq3 has left the room
[20:07:14] *** Zash has left the room
[20:07:41] *** nyco has left the room
[20:08:24] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:08:37] *** nyco shows as "online"
[20:10:09] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[20:11:10] *** marmistrz has left the room
[20:12:47] *** Lance has joined the room
[20:12:47] *** Lance shows as "away"
[20:13:54] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:15:08] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:15:15] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:15:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:15:48] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:24:06] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:24:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:25:19] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:28:16] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:28:44] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:29:24] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[20:29:25] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[20:30:05] *** daniel has left the room
[20:30:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:30:55] *** Guus has left the room
[20:31:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
[20:31:31] *** daniel has left the room
[20:31:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:32:08] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[20:34:15] *** intosi has left the room
[20:36:27] *** jubalh has joined the room
[20:36:50] *** andy has joined the room
[20:37:46] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:39:48] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[20:40:16] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:40:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:43:37] <MattJ> SaltyBones, the latter. It's stamped on incoming stanzas (to the user) by the server, to let the client know what id the server has assigned it (e.g. in the MAM archive)
[20:44:00] <MattJ> and in some version of the future, it will also be stamped on reflected outgoing messages
[20:44:36] *** Zash has left the room
[20:45:43] *** andy has left the room
[20:46:56] *** andy has joined the room
[20:47:48] *** remko shows as "online"
[20:49:05] *** remko has left the room
[20:51:05] *** Zash has joined the room
[20:51:55] *** Lance has left the room
[20:52:56] *** Lance has joined the room
[20:52:57] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:54:50] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:54:51] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[20:56:58] *** andy has left the room
[20:57:03] *** andy has joined the room
[20:58:01] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:59:50] *** Lance has left the room
[20:59:55] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[21:00:35] *** waqas has joined the room
[21:00:39] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[21:00:40] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[21:02:23] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[21:02:50] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[21:05:47] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:05:54] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[21:08:24] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:08:24] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:09:24] <SaltyBones> And are stanza-IDs used anywhere else? They seem to be presented as this kind of general concept that can be used to add stable IDs for some sort of domain...
[21:09:27] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[21:10:02] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:10:19] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:10:38] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:11:17] <Kev> They started off as just a part of MAM. They were extracted out (probably wrongly).
[21:11:30] <Kev> Well, no, not quite wrongly.
[21:11:50] <Kev> Because they're used beyond MAM, they're also going to be used for Unread sync, and injected into Carbons and stuff.
[21:13:11] <MattJ> SaltyBones, originally MAM used to stamp <archived by="archive-jid" id="unique-id-for-mam-queries" />
[21:13:17] *** ludo has joined the room
[21:13:47] <MattJ> But the general feeling was that this unique id shouldn't be MAM-specific, but reusable
[21:14:04] *** Zash has left the room
[21:14:09] *** Zash has joined the room
[21:14:50] <SaltyBones> Yeah, I'm just wondering if it has actually ever been used for anything and if tha anything is also between client and server or not.
[21:14:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:15:01] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:15:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:15:13] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[21:15:22] <Kev> Yes, only between client and server (or client and client)
[21:15:31] <Kev> Unread sync is the obvious one that it's needed.
[21:15:39] *** marc has left the room
[21:15:50] *** dwd has left the room
[21:17:35] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:17:36] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:21:22] *** dwd shows as "online"
[21:22:05] *** Alex has left the room
[21:23:41] *** dwd has left the room
[21:24:51] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:25:54] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:31:39] *** andy has left the room
[21:31:50] *** Zash has left the room
[21:32:19] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:32:22] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:33:45] *** Alex has joined the room
[21:34:09] *** marmistrz has left the room
[21:35:25] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:35:55] *** jubalh has joined the room
[21:37:58] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[21:38:09] *** andy has joined the room
[21:48:03] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:48:23] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[21:49:31] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[21:50:51] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[21:55:33] *** rtq3 has left the room
[21:57:29] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:58:46] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:59:01] *** peter has left the room
[22:00:10] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[22:00:14] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:00:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:01:42] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[22:02:35] *** Guus has left the room
[22:02:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:02:45] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:02:55] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[22:04:40] *** lumi shows as "online"
[22:04:43] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:05:24] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:05:54] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[22:05:54] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[22:09:17] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[22:10:56] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:11:45] *** daniel has left the room
[22:12:19] *** Guus has left the room
[22:12:49] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:12:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:14:23] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:14:41] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:15:19] *** Guus has left the room
[22:15:45] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:15:49] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[22:16:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:19:20] *** jere has left the room
[22:19:32] *** jere has joined the room
[22:20:23] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:20:53] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:22:55] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[22:25:23] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:25:47] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:26:21] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:27:02] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[22:28:55] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[22:28:55] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[22:30:38] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[22:34:06] *** lumi shows as "online"
[22:34:39] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:35:32] *** jubalh has joined the room
[22:38:03] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[22:38:15] *** jubalh has left the room
[22:40:39] *** rtq3 has left the room
[22:40:46] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[22:41:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:41:33] *** andy has left the room
[22:41:49] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:43:00] *** jubalh has joined the room
[22:43:03] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:43:36] *** dwd shows as "online"
[22:47:02] *** rtq3 has left the room
[22:47:13] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[22:48:05] *** Lance has joined the room
[22:48:05] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:48:16] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[22:48:36] *** ralphm has joined the room
[22:49:53] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:50:02] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:52:27] *** Guus has left the room
[22:52:27] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:53:37] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:55:18] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:55:40] *** lumi shows as "online"
[22:57:52] *** andy has joined the room
[22:58:19] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:58:55] *** lumi has left the room
[22:59:06] *** ralphm has joined the room
[23:00:20] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:03:19] *** Guus has left the room
[23:03:34] *** Syndace has left the room
[23:03:39] *** Syndace has joined the room
[23:06:45] *** Lance has left the room
[23:08:39] *** Nekit has left the room
[23:13:04] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[23:13:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:14:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:14:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:15:57] *** Alex has left the room
[23:16:25] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:16:33] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[23:20:37] *** ralphm has left the room
[23:21:52] *** jubalh has left the room
[23:22:05] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:24:02] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[23:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[23:24:19] *** Guus has left the room
[23:26:20] *** ralphm has joined the room
[23:26:23] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[23:26:29] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[23:26:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:28:50] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:28:58] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:29:07] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:29:08] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:29:18] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:29:18] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:33:34] *** andy has left the room
[23:34:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:34:55] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:35:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:35:35] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:35:37] *** Guus has left the room
[23:35:37] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:38:46] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:38:57] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:40:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:40:43] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:43:39] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:43:46] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[23:44:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:44:03] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:44:37] *** Syndace has left the room
[23:44:43] *** Syndace has joined the room
[23:46:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:46:58] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:48:19] *** Guus has left the room
[23:48:46] *** ralphm has left the room
[23:50:13] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:50:43] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:50:43] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:55:45] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:56:40] *** ralphm has joined the room
[23:57:19] *** Guus has left the room
[23:58:32] *** jjrh has left the room
[23:58:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"