XSF Discussion - 2018-03-01


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  255. Kev 8AM and I already won the 'most pointless mail to standards@ of the day' award.
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  262. jonasw great, poezio is massively confused by this MUC. Trying to answer nontheless: how do you end up with 2046 octets? the "@" surely is needed?
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  266. Kev Nope.
  267. Kev What do you need the @ for?
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  271. jonasw Kev, to separate localpart and domain?
  272. Kev Why do you need to do that?
  273. Kev (I'm not being dense, you'll get there in a moment :))
  274. jonasw oh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happen??
  275. jonasw oh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happens?
  276. Kev :)
  277. jonasw oh my god
  278. Kev :)
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  280. jonasw you can’t do that to me
  281. jonasw good morning Kev, you already made my day :-)
  282. Kev No, I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but it's 8AM and I felt the world deserved to suffer.
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  284. jonasw I am amused at this point :)
  285. jonasw I’m sorry that you feel the need to make the world suffer, wanna talk about it? :)
  286. jonasw (this idea is so insane and I can, in a very *very* weird way relate to it, doing embedded work from time to time)
  287. jonasw (it keeps making me laugh)
  288. jonasw (if that helps you in any way; if you genuinely want suffering, I’m double-sorry now)
  289. Kev No, not really.
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  292. Ge0rG This only works if your upstream implementation actually enforces the 1023 octet limits
  293. Ge0rG But it reminds me of the double-linked-list-with-only-one-pointer trick.
  294. jonasw I don’t want to know.
  295. jonasw (although I’m guilty of using Duff’s-device-coroutines)
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  312. flow hmm? and where do you get the length from? Don't you need to store it instead of the separation char?
  313. jonasw flow, the length is in the data field itself; XML delimits it for you
  314. jonasw (and databases would too)
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  361. Ge0rG We were talking about sponsoring individual XMPP developers recently, and maybe this one might work out for some: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/
  362. jonasw what’s the difference to patreon and liberapay?
  363. jonasw > We offer Paypal and Stripe as payout options.
  364. jonasw meh
  365. Ge0rG jonasw: better branding.
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  368. Ge0rG Stripe does IBAN payouts, though
  369. jonasw I signed up for liberapay and just realized that they didn’t ask me for a password yet.
  370. jonasw that’s smooth onbording I’ll say
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  375. Ge0rG > Unlike other non-profit platforms, Liberapay is neutral. You can create an account without having to wait for us to approve it, and we won't kick you out unless you break the law or the terms of service. Heh. But I kind of like the overall thing
  376. jonasw "but"?
  377. Ge0rG I don't know about them, but most payment processors have very vague ToS, so you'll end up kicked anyway
  378. mathieui jonasw, that’s kind of similar to the policy of the "kickstarter for fascists" started by far-right groups
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  383. daniel mathieui: wasn't that more like patreon? Because patreon kicked Lauren southern?
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  466. Tobias So seems like the MLS WG is pretty limited in their planned supported scenarios.
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  470. flow Tobias, how come?
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  472. Tobias https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/b5YoQfdeFcoLYrFdxbZmdX__jWA
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  474. Tobias See this thread
  475. Dave Cridland That's a very well-written email to kick things off.
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  480. flow Dave Cridland, "within blue light"?
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  482. flow hmm, possibly rescue services and such
  483. Dave Cridland flow, Right, sorry, a UK term. People who drive vehicles with blue lights on top - so fire/police/ambulance.
  484. Dave Cridland But also coastguard, mountain rescue, cave rescue, and all sorts. Weird sector, because some of it is Government funded and some is volunteer.
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  494. Ge0rG That escalated quickly
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  526. ralphm bangs gavel
  527. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  528. MattJ Good afternoon
  529. ralphm 0. Welcome and agenda
  530. Guus plots to replace the gavel with a rubber one for next time.
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  532. ralphm Hi!
  533. ralphm Who do we have?
  534. MattJ Me
  535. Guus I
  536. ralphm Martin and nyco?
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  539. ralphm Guess not.
  540. ralphm Any additions to the agenda?
  541. Guus I've added commteam membership requests to Trello earlier
  542. Guus (also, minutes?)
  543. ralphm Guus: I'm following the left-most column of Trello
  544. ralphm 1. Confirm minute taker
  545. ralphm Who (including floor) can do this?
  546. Guus if not anyone from the floor, I will
  547. ralphm Thanks GUus
  548. ralphm Thanks Guus
  549. ralphm 2. Board priorities
  550. ralphm We still need to settle the meeting which nyco was setting up
  551. Guus I'm tempted to say that given our track record, that meeting that we're holding this off for isn't going to happen.
  552. Guus can we come to a conclusion on this without that meeting?
  553. ralphm I guess, but let's keep this on for one more week. Doing this with just 3/5 is not helpful
  554. Guus agreed.
  555. MattJ My proposal to make progress on this...
  556. MattJ I'd like to do another membership survey (though I know some people don't believe it holds much value)
  557. Guus I'm with the latter, but it doesn't hurt to have one either.
  558. MattJ I can draft something up, and we'll at least have something to discuss
  559. MattJ Right now it's such a broad open-ended topic, this "board priorities" thing really gets to me
  560. ralphm Yeah, I agree
  561. MattJ If all we need to do is agree that we want to make XMPP more popular and combat spam, let's just do it
  562. MattJ and remove this card
  563. Ge0rG what about making Jabber more popular?
  564. ralphm Let's not have this discussion right now.
  565. Guus Mattj, please go ahead. Anything to move forward.
  566. ralphm Yep
  567. ralphm 3. Additions to Work Teams
  568. MattJ Ok, I'll add it to my to-do(TM)
  569. j.r has joined
  570. Guus JC asked me to add those names up for a board vote
  571. ralphm From what I understood after the meeting last week, Winfried should have been part of the communications team. I'm +1 on adding him.
  572. Guus I'm very happy for anyone to contribute, and strongly believe the board should facilitate where we can, as I'm convinced that this benefits us all. My voting behavior on team membership issues is therefor "yes, unless".
  573. Guus Communication work team membership allows people to communicate on behalf of the XSF (by granting access to our social media accounts, and by allowing them to directly make changes to our public website).
  574. Guus Although he appears to be very motivated and puts in a lot of effort, I am not comfortable with Ludovic communicating on behalf of the XSF: I've experienced his style to be badgering, to the point of great annoyance, pressing non-issues, or issues that I disagree with.
  575. Guus I've seen, and have heard of, similar issues between him and others.
  576. Guus I'm therefor -1 on adding Ludovic as a member of the Communnication work team.
  577. Guus I have no concerns regarding Winfried's membership of the Communications work team. I'm +1 on that.
  578. ralphm I agree with all of that Guus.
  579. MattJ Likewise on both counts
  580. jonasw I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one.
  581. ralphm Ok. Motion to add Winfried carries. Motion to add Ludovic doesn't carry.
  582. ralphm 4. SPAM SIG
  583. ralphm This was discussed after last weeks meeting briefly.
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  585. MattJ If this is an open group that essentially consists of a mailing list and MUC room, I have no objections
  586. ralphm I want to reiterate here that the (previous) board has voted this down, and I intend to stick by that decision until there's a better proposal.
  587. MattJ I think the initial request was for a closed group
  588. Guus If this facilitates an effort, I'm not against this.
  589. ralphm MattJ: right, but a SIG is more than that and I don't see why this needs to be an XSF activity.
  590. ralphm See also the operators mailinglist
  591. ralphm a SIG is open by definition
  592. Ge0rG the reason to make this an XSF-approved thing is to show that we are committed to fighting spam, and that we are actually doing something
  593. Guus I'm not on there, I think. Was there a relevant discussion, or is that an alternate venue you're referring to?
  594. Ge0rG I don't care much about the formal structure
  595. ralphm Ge0rG: until the direction of the XSF changes, we are a standards body
  596. Ge0rG ralphm: then it's time to change directions
  597. MattJ I don't see much of a difference between this and other SIGs we've formed in the past
  598. MattJ I'm not in favour of the spam manifesto being an XSF activity, for sure
  599. ralphm Ge0rG: and not everything XMPP under the sun has to be an XSF activity for work to get done. I tried explaining this on various occasions, and I don't understand why you don't get that.
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  601. ralphm So work on it, if there are things you can't do, propose a XEP and we'll vote on this again.
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  604. ralphm (a XEP for a SIG. XEPs for protocol can go directly to the Council)
  605. Ge0rG ralphm: while I agree that we as the XSF have very limited manpower, my hope is that at least we as the XSF have a wider outreach, so we can have more contributions.
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  607. ralphm Ge0rG: there's nothing the XSF does to 'widen outreach'
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  609. Ge0rG ralphm: you should discuss that with the comms-wg
  610. ralphm I suggest you get something started, tell the Comms team what you are doing and they can add a line or two in their news letter.
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  612. ralphm 5. AOB
  613. ralphm Anything else?
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  615. Guus the ED search and bus factor thingy?
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  617. Guus bus factor wise, we're waiting for Peter's contact at the bank to return, I think? I'll ask him about that
  618. ralphm thanks
  619. Guus the Executive Director replacement, I still am unclear what needs to happen there.
  620. Guus but we should get that sorted (or removed)
  621. ralphm I'd like that to be part of our Priorities discussion, if we ever have one.
  622. Guus we're not simply asking for someone to take over from Peter?
  623. ralphm As was brought up briefly around the Summit, we need to know what we expect this person to do, outside of the profile that was defined long time ago.
  624. Guus sensible. But, perhaps take that out of context of the prio thingy - to not overload that effort?
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  628. goffi does putting the newsletter license under CC By-SA need a board vote? I've made a P.R. for that, jc is OK for it (I've asked yesterday)
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  630. Guus (goffi, I don't know to be honest)
  631. jonasw I don’t think so, frankly.
  632. ralphm goffi, it probably would
  633. jonasw do we have something which puts all rights on work made on the website under XSF ownership?
  634. MattJ Does the XSF even hold the copyright?
  635. ralphm Let me check that.
  636. jonasw if not, JC probably has the permissions to put it under any license he likes
  637. ralphm If it is an XSF activity, yes
  638. MattJ He's not paid for it
  639. Zash Neither are XEP authors?
  640. ralphm I think payment is not a factor
  641. ralphm XEPs are explicitly attributed to the XSF
  642. goffi XEP authors give ownership explicitly (I've done it)
  643. ralphm I think going forward, it makes a lot of sense for the XSF to own the copyright to things it publishes
  644. jonasw defining a license for website content would be a good idea.
  645. ralphm I seem to remember we had this
  646. jonasw or rather: digging in the archives whether there actually *is* a license on website content and it just got lost in transition
  647. Guus that might not be the worst of ideas
  648. jonasw checking archive.org now
  649. ralphm jonasw: thanks
  650. Guus Shall we move that to next week then?
  651. ralphm Let's continue this out of band, and maybe add an item to our Trello
  652. jonasw https://web.archive.org/web/20070707184343/http://www.xmpp.org/about/copyright.shtml
  653. jonasw CC-BY
  654. Yagiza has joined
  655. ralphm 2.5
  656. ralphm (apparently)
  657. Guus Shall we restore that to our current website?
  658. jonasw I don’t find a similar attribution in the 2011 version
  659. jonasw so technically the content created inbetween is probably in limbo
  660. ralphm It probably got lost in all the site changes
  661. Guus I think it's reasonable to assume that it was not intentionally dropped and replaced by <nothing>.
  662. jonasw yeah
  663. ralphm Agreed
  664. ralphm I +1 your suggestion, Guus
  665. Guus martin (hi!), mattj?
  666. MattJ Yes, +1
  667. ralphm Carries
  668. jubalh has joined
  669. ralphm Ok, I think that's it for today.
  670. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  671. ralphm +1W
  672. ralphm 7. Close
  673. ralphm Thanks all!
  674. Guus wfm
  675. ralphm bangs gavel
  676. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  677. MattJ Thanks
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  693. SaltyBones Holger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc? -_-
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  696. Guus considered _not_ making a reference to 'magic words' briefly, but desided against it.
  697. SaltyBones Holger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc, please?
  698. SaltyBones :)
  699. daniel has joined
  700. intosi Alohomora might've worked as well. Guus was very unspecific.
  701. Guus :)
  702. SaltyBones Avada Kedavra!
  703. intosi Well, that wouldn't be my choice, really. You want to open a lock, not kill the admin.
  704. intosi Dark wizardry is frowned upon by most operators.
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  706. SaltyBones I only remember that and Lumos. :p
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  709. jonasw SaltyBones, Vingardio Leviosa?
  710. jonasw (wutschen und wedeln!)
  711. SaltyBones Expecto Patronum!
  712. Kev Our testing framework for M-Link has an expectation framework called Expecto, and the 'check everything is the way it should be and fail the test otherwise' call is ->patronum().
  713. Kev So many of our unit tests end with the line expecto_->patronum();
  714. intosi How would you expect to get marks for Charms if you can't even be bothered to use the right one if it's provided on a silver plate? ;)
  715. Ge0rG Kev: what's the `_` for? singleton?
  716. intosi member
  717. Ge0rG wasn't the member `_` a prefix, typically?
  718. dwd has left
  719. Kev Prefixes are magic in C++, and you have to be very careful to get them right. So it's safer (and reads better) to just suffix.
  720. Ge0rG > Each name that begins with an underscore is reserved to the implementation for use as a name in the global namespace. Oh, didn't know *that*
  721. Ge0rG C++ is full of surprises, even to experienced developers
  722. SaltyBones I completely agree and hate it for that.
  723. jonasw I thought it was just _Uppercase?
  724. jonasw fun
  725. jonasw I’m using m_foo now anyways
  726. Dave Cridland has left
  727. Ge0rG jonasw: _Uppercase is reserved in any scope, _* only in global scope
  728. jonasw ah okay
  729. Ge0rG I'm sure this distinction is never going to bite anyone.
  730. dwd has left
  731. rion omg.. ~/projects/psi/git$ grep -P '\b_\S+' --include '*.cpp' -r . | wc -l 1782
  732. jonasw rion, foo._ would be safe IIUC
  733. Kev Ge0rG: I chose my words carefully :)
  734. Ge0rG Kev: as you always do, indeed.
  735. Kev Wibble.
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  741. intosi Kev: working on RowanIM again?
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  747. Kev Something like that.
  748. Kev Maybe we should rename Swift to Adder or something.
  749. Kev Until Apple then releases a new calculator or something.
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  755. intosi Sounds like a cunning plan.
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  760. Dave Cridland jonasw, I always use m_xyz for non-public members, too.
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  791. SaltyBones When discussing IDs yesterday it was a common view that servers want to pick IDs for MAM storage.
  792. SaltyBones I'm wondering if that flexibility is actually being used and is necessary?
  793. MattJ Yes, it's being used
  794. SaltyBones Don't all servers have to basically perform the same operations on the archive and need the same index?
  795. MattJ The id can help encode indexing information
  796. SaltyBones Is that something that could or should be standardized because all servers need it?
  797. Guus has left
  798. SaltyBones What kind of stuff do you encode there?
  799. MattJ No, it shouldn't be standardized - it's not even standardized in Prosody, because it depends what storage you are using
  800. Kev It should be standardised that the server chooses, if that's the question.
  801. MattJ Oh, right, sure. I assumed the question was "should the encoded information be standardized?"
  802. SaltyBones Yes, it was. :)
  803. SaltyBones Yes, it was (what MattJ said). :)
  804. Zash We have a translation layer for a legacy storage mode where you need the date and offset to identify messages
  805. SaltyBones O_o
  806. jonasw https://unicode.org/reports/tr51/#Longer_Term and the XSF as a whole, regarding emoji and stickers
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  830. moparisthebest unicode was a mistake
  831. Zash wat
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  833. Ge0rG unicode has failed
  834. Zash at what
  835. Zash https://xkcd.com/1953/
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  838. intosi They just have to add teletext codepoints and colour selectors, and Bob's your uncle.
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  851. moparisthebest that XKCD could not be more accurate
  852. SaltyBones MattJ, Zash: so one thing that was not completely explained yesterday is why we do mam queries with stanza-ID. Would it be so much more complicated to query by client ID?
  853. Zash SaltyBones: O(n)
  854. Dave Cridland has left
  855. SaltyBones Can't you translate the client ID into something that can be an index? If I understand the problem correctly...
  856. Zash There's no index
  857. dwd has left
  858. Kev Zash: There is an index, it's just not conventional.
  859. SaltyBones So what s the O(n)?
  860. lskdjf has joined
  861. Kev Searching the entire archive for the right id.
  862. Zash It avoids O(n) by being able to skip to the right day, because there's some time info embedded in the ID
  863. lskdjf has joined
  864. SaltyBones Interesting...
  865. SaltyBones So there is no index except a rough time?
  866. Zash The legacy thing I mentioned doesn't have an index, just a directory tree.
  867. SaltyBones And then it looks for the exact stanza-ID in the neighborhood?
  868. Zash And it's about as old as Prosody itself, and used for MUC
  869. Zash Who picks the stanza id in MUCs?
  870. SaltyBones Is there any way for the server to check if the queries stanza-ID was good?
  871. rion has left
  872. SaltyBones (efficiently)
  873. SaltyBones I suppose you already answered that...
  874. Zash And who picks the stanza id on messages from 2009?
  875. SaltyBones Are you asking me?
  876. Zash I'm actually talking about the thing behind http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
  877. SaltyBones Because I have no clue. ;/
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  881. SaltyBones I m just wondering if we could avoid clients having to deal with stanza-IDs
  882. SaltyBones Maybe they could just query by timestamp
  883. SaltyBones I don't know. I'm just curious. ;)
  884. Guus has left
  885. Kev As a client author, I don't think it's worth the effort. This is not providing much value, while many other things need solving.
  886. lovetox SaltyBones, if there was an easy solution the people here would already have done it
  887. lovetox everything has pro and cons
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  894. SaltyBones I agree but some of those are invisible to me. ;)
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  899. SaltyBones Kev: Would that hold even if you were writing one from scratch?
  900. Kev Yes.
  901. SaltyBones Ok
  902. dwd has left
  903. SaltyBones Then I'll just type up a summary of this and yesterday's discussion for the mailing list.
  904. Kev As a server author, I also don't want to have ids that I need to index in some way being assigned to me instead of having me generate them (applies to resources as well as MAM, in fact) :)
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  914. lovetox with current mam:2 the whole process is not elegant but it works
  915. lovetox so indeed there are other things we could spend energy on
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  919. moparisthebest you already do Kev , JIDs for example
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  921. Kev Not quite the same.
  922. moparisthebest it's an arbitrary string you have to index and search on
  923. moparisthebest pretty sure it's exactly the same
  924. Kev I promise it's not.
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  940. jonasw SaltyBones, as a client author, I prefer bouncing another stanza ID around over using timestamps for querying
  941. jonasw timestamps are the most awful thing
  942. SaltyBones :)
  943. moparisthebest this trustico certificate business is the best entertainment I've seen for awhile
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  947. Zash Anyone got any good arguments on this topic? https://mastodon.xyz/@HerraBRE/99605039095553757
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  949. SaltyBones Good arguments for which side? ;)
  950. Dave Cridland has left
  951. moparisthebest that's just dumb
  952. moparisthebest it's public knowledge that google etc just mines everyone's data, it's in their TOS
  953. moparisthebest he is saying a friend/family that hosts a server can also do that, which is true
  954. moparisthebest the solution is to use a protocol that lets you hide as much data as possible, so you can trust anyone else as little as possible
  955. jjrh Isn't the argument more that your friends/family are more likely to violate your privacy so being a needle in a haystack (aka using gmail vs a email hosting a family/friend setup and maintains) you probably are less likely to have your privacy violated
  956. Zash has left
  957. SaltyBones Yes, and that the data mining by Google is less harmful than snooping spouses. At least short term that s probably true
  958. Dave Cridland has left
  959. SaltyBones That's btw why I like e2e. I don't have access anymore. Awesome!
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  963. jonasw yeah, great :)
  964. Dave Cridland has left
  965. jjrh It's probably true that the negative consequences of someone snooping are far more likely to occur with friends/family. Google might read my email and find out i'm cheating on my wife but all they care about is knowing i'm a good candidate to advertise 2 star motels.
  966. SaltyBones jjrh: That is a wonderful example!
  967. moparisthebest jjrh, except it's public knowledge google violates *everyones* privacy all the time as a matter of business
  968. Zash Incentives
  969. moparisthebest so your likliehood of getting privacy violated on google is 100%
  970. andy has left
  971. moparisthebest seems like it could be less than 100% elsewhere...
  972. jjrh That's why I said the negative consequences of that.
  973. moparisthebest yea so if you are cheating on your spouse, you probably shouldn't use a server your spouse has access to
  974. moparisthebest but do we have to spell out obvious things?
  975. andy has joined
  976. Zash Other than E2EE, is there anything that can be done in a world of federated friends&family servers wrt incentives for doing the right thing?
  977. jjrh E2EE? end to end encryption?
  978. Zash Y
  979. SaltyBones I think the problem is backwards. :)
  980. SaltyBones We are using F&F because we trust these people more than Google.
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  982. jonasw this is a frustrating argument
  983. jonasw this is a frustrating evening
  984. moparisthebest well e2e but there is also things we can do to hide metadata
  985. Zash jonasw: Have you caught some common cold variant too?
  986. moparisthebest that I haven't proposed yet but might get around to some day :P
  987. SaltyBones jonasw: yoga?
  988. jonasw Zash, nah, just Qt
  989. SaltyBones Ah
  990. jonasw (Qt (a) doesn’t support libnotify for whatever f*ing reason there might be and (b) does awful and illogical things to my icons when shoing them in the systray)
  991. daniel has joined
  992. jjrh moparisthebest, I think it's more the grey area where you're not doing something obviously wrong but for various reasons may not want your wife to know.
  993. Dave Cridland has left
  994. moparisthebest then you shouldn't use a server ran by your wife
  995. moparisthebest that's simple common sense
  996. SaltyBones The point is, trust relationships change but sometimes you notice too late.
  997. SaltyBones However, very often they don't.
  998. moparisthebest besides if you live with a server admin and use their server
  999. moparisthebest and switch to using google, they can also just mitm you or hack your computer
  1000. moparisthebest so what's the point here
  1001. Zash Having the server admin within a stones throw could serve as an incentive... :)
  1002. SaltyBones So, I run my server with a friend who lives in a different country. Your argument simply does not apply.
  1003. jonasw moparisthebest, different levels of criminal energy needed
  1004. SaltyBones jonasw: maybe, all those things are pretty easy once you go down that road ;)
  1005. jjrh Probably a more likely scenario is your wifes aunt runs a email server and snoops most likely unintentionally. The point is more that just because someone at google is - as you said constantly violating your privacy - the likely hood of a - at least immediate - negative impact is far lower
  1006. jonasw setting up a sophisticated MitM proxy, installing a rogue CA certificate and ensuring that it can’t be reasonably circumvented requires much more criminal energy compared to grep -Rni "interesting thing" /var/lib/prosody/
  1007. marmistrz has joined
  1008. SaltyBones jonasw: just installing $snooping_app is also pretty trivial.
  1009. moparisthebest I mean I run a server for my family that lives in this house, plus my mom who doesn't
  1010. moparisthebest but I also handle all the stuff on my mom's computer too
  1011. moparisthebest whether I snoop on the server is irrelevent
  1012. daniel has joined
  1013. jonasw also fun fact: i recently heard a fun story from employees at a *large* international payment processor. apparantly it’s common to find some amusement in the transaction comments, especially since some .. uhm .. adult recreational toy? stores appear to put your whole order list in there :)
  1014. Dave Cridland has left
  1015. SaltyBones jjrh: What bothers me about this is that long term all this data collection about us might have negative consequences. And then it will be very hard to fix. :)
  1016. moparisthebest if this is a problem for you the solution is e2e not switch to google
  1017. moparisthebest that's insane
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  1019. moparisthebest SaltyBones, yea it's just harmless data until it gets you and generations of your descendents murdered https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide
  1020. jonasw jjrh, precisely the reason why I hate to debug email issues. it often involves looking at logs or data i don’t even want to see.
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  1022. jjrh I'm by no means saying it's better to use google/be a needle in a haystack. Just that the arguement holds some validity that it's probably true privacy violations with negative impacts are more likely from friends and family.
  1023. moparisthebest well that entirely depends on the specific situation you are in though
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  1025. moparisthebest cheating on your wife - true
  1026. moparisthebest planning to blow up a power plant - false
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  1030. jjrh That's true and really we are basing the idea it's more likely off the assumption the majority of murders/sexual abuse are from friends and family equates to privacy
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  1032. jjrh Which sounds reasonable but I don't actually know if that's true or not.
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  1034. moparisthebest if your family is the murdering/abusive type then maybe consider using a different provider
  1035. moparisthebest OR MAYBE MOVE AWAY OR SOMETHING MORE SENSIBLE THAN CONSIDERING CHAT PROVIDERS
  1036. jonasw it’s not always as simple as that, I bet
  1037. Zash It's never easy
  1038. jonasw relationships are much more tricky than "don’t do that"
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  1044. jjrh I tend to want to implicitly trust someone. If I can't trust that you won't ignore the email client I left open when you're checking something unrelated why would I associate with you?
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  1046. Zash Society is built on lots and lots of implicit trust in others.
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  1049. Zash Crypto is actually kinda weird in that regard
  1050. Dave Cridland has left
  1051. jjrh Not really - if we could actually trust everyone no one would think about crypto
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  1053. Zash I mean, a locked door isn't really all that secure, but it's a social signal and you trust most people to respect that most of the time.
  1054. Zash .
  1055. Zash Net-hickup
  1056. jjrh I mean if no one stole anything we wouldn't lock doors
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  1064. moparisthebest I know people who still don't
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  1066. moparisthebest I think that's a little dumb, but it's never been a problem yet...
  1067. Zash The lock itself is only a part of why.
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  1070. Zash Morality, the justice system and insurance
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  1072. Zash The locks themselves just need to be enough of a road block that someone who gets past it clearly demonstrated intent
  1073. moparisthebest well there are people that would take something if it wasn't locked, but would never break a lock
  1074. moparisthebest that saying a lock keeps an honest man honest or something
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  1113. jjrh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjifumRk3Q
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  1119. Seve -w can
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  1143. Ge0rG E2EE won't solve the abusive admin problem, because the admin will just look for your metadata
  1144. moparisthebest again totally depends on what you expect to remain private
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  1148. moparisthebest and I think we can do more to minimize metadata in xmpp, in combination with e2e
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  1150. Zash Which point on the security vs convenience scale do you want?
  1151. moparisthebest it's nice to be able to choose
  1152. jonasw nah
  1153. Zash Choice is hard
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  1155. Ge0rG moparisthebest: most people can't choose what they want, not even people from this MUC.
  1156. moparisthebest have you seen that chat system someone made that requires 3 computers at each end that communicate over 1-way optical links ?
  1157. jonasw kthxno
  1158. moparisthebest I'm trying to find it but failing...
  1159. moparisthebest anyway, that's the 'secure' end of the scale
  1160. Zash Let's have that quantum entanglement thing, that'll probably solve all problems!
  1161. jonasw I need a quantum bingo
  1162. jjrh It's more what the default should be.
  1163. jjrh majority of users will use what's default
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  1169. moparisthebest found it https://github.com/maqp/tfc/
  1170. moparisthebest Tinfoil Chat
  1171. Zash Send a physical letter!
  1172. moparisthebest the diagrams and entire system really is amazing
  1173. Zash It's got way better legal protections afaik
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  1231. jjrh Would be better with photocell and led's. I don't trust optocouplers black box.
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  1237. moparisthebest yea I think he said the original design had that
  1238. moparisthebest or that he based it off that or something
  1239. moparisthebest you might as well go all the way if you are going this far I think
  1240. jjrh yeah
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