XSF Discussion - 2018-03-03


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  338. Syndace Following recent discussions about an alternative OMEMO implementation (licensed under a more permissive license than GPL), I want to inform you, that I am currently revisiting my python implementation and I am very happy with what I'm seeing. My implementation uses pynacl (python bindings to the libsodium library), is licensed under MIT and was written from scratch not depending on libsignal. The only puzzle piece I am missing is XEdDSA, which I have a hard time implementing myself. (I can't even tell you why, the algorithm is not too complex but somehow it just won't work :D) I expect the library to be ready for release about one week after I can get XEdDSA to work.
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  373. Ge0rG Syndace: it would be great to have more client developers on board, Gajim and poezio maybe?
  374. Zash Has the XEP moved forward on that issue yet?
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  377. Ge0rG Are the implementations out there already using the XEP namespace?
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  389. Syndace Ge0rG, what do you mean "on board"? As soon as it's released I'm happy about anyone contributing or using the lib, whether the big clients will actually use it is not in my power to decide, but I'll be happy to adjust things to their likings.
  390. Syndace Also just to clarify, I'm not doing any xmpp stanza specific stuff, I'm only doing the crypto (and a bit of the wire format).
  391. Ge0rG Syndace: I'm not closely following the development, but AFAICT there are two different OMEMO libraries in python
  392. Syndace Ge0rG, AFAIK the other one is just a binding to libsignal and not actively maintained
  393. Syndace ...and gpl aswell
  394. Ge0rG Syndace: either way, it might be a good thing to plug on the xmpp Newsletter
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  396. Syndace Oh, there is a newsletter... :D
  397. pep. What's the issue with GPL, it's not like it wouldn't work with gajim or poezio already. The distribution channel would have to be different that's it
  398. pep. Syndace: it's all new!
  399. Syndace GPL is a thing of taste, we had the discussion in jdev@ a few days ago. It's more about all the available implementations using libsignal, thus OMEMO can't really move forward.
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  404. daniel it's awesome that there will be a non-gpl library soon. however gpl hasn't really stopped omemo thus far. i think by now the number of omemo implementations outnumbers the number of jingle file transfer implementations
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  449. moparisthebest pep.: Whiny people who hate the gpl seem to be the only problem with the gpl :)
  450. moparisthebest And yes that, seems people who do the actual work don't care, so just ignore the noise
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  453. Zash Counter-example: Swift?
  454. SaltyBones swift doesn't have omemo because of gpl?
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  456. Zash Disregarding people who can't use GPL code for legal reasons as "whiny peolpe"..
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  462. marmistrz Zash: can't they simply move to GPL?
  463. Zash It is GPL
  464. Zash The issue was probably more complicated but I don't know all about that
  465. Syndace How do you send private messages in a MUC o.O?
  466. Syndace That's the first time I saw that :D
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  468. SaltyBones depends on your client ;)
  469. SaltyBones maybe you don't ;)
  470. Syndace Conversations atm?
  471. Syndace I'll just answer for everyone here: I don't have a channel or anything for my OMEMO hacking, it's just something I did on my own when I was bored :D
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  477. SamWhited Syndace: long press the persons avatar enters the private message mode
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  481. Syndace But if anyone wants to talk about it, feel free to create a small muc or pm me
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  484. Syndace SamWhited, ah thanks
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  496. j.r How can I make something like TTL for xmpp messages?
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  498. daniel I think it's pretty rare that a stanza has more than two hops...
  499. Zash MUC
  500. daniel Right
  501. daniel I was about to say. Maybe four if you count muc
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  504. Ge0rG Maybe the question is about actual time, not hop count?
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  506. Zash -xep amp
  507. Bunneh Zash: Advanced Message Processing (Standards Track, Draft, 2005-11-30) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
  508. Zash That has expiry, right?
  509. Zash But does it have implementations?
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  511. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html#conditions-def-expireat
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  513. j.r > Maybe the question is about actual time, not hop count? Yes
  514. daniel Amp is not a good xep if you want to implement self destructible messages
  515. j.r > https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html#conditions-def-expireat Does this also work with Clients? I mean do they delet the message after the expiration?
  516. jonasw probably not
  517. daniel Of course not.
  518. daniel Only works in proprietary systems
  519. j.r Yes and that's the thing I would have how can a already deliverd message be destroyed on the client?
  520. daniel Just make up your own extension
  521. Zash <clippy> It looks like you want to implement DRM. Please don't.
  522. daniel I lost count on how many times I implemented that
  523. j.r > <clippy> It looks like you want to implement DRM. Please don't. No I just want self destroying messages like in Telegram
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  525. jonasw that’s DRM :-)
  526. jonasw j.r, self-destructing messages don’t really work in a federated system.
  527. jonasw they don’t even really work in a non-federated non-proprietary system
  528. jonasw but in a federated, non-proprietary system there’s no chance.
  529. Zash It's incompatible with universal turing machines under the control of users.
  530. jonasw yeah
  531. Zash Just like DRM
  532. Zash Logical impossibility.
  533. jonasw Zash, how about Secure Enclave? :>
  534. daniel jonasw: depends on your definition of work
  535. jonasw daniel, "is an actual security device which can be relied upon"
  536. Zash jonasw: I don't know what you are talking about and I probably don't want to.
  537. j.r OK so it isn't possible in Xmpp right?
  538. Zash And don't mention homomorphic computation!
  539. daniel j.r: yes it is.
  540. daniel But not in jabber
  541. jonasw Zash, let me ruin your day: that fancy feature in intel processors (SGX) where you can run stuff in isolation from the OS. nice for cloud users, because they can be sure that their stuff is untouched by the provider via remote attestation and whatnot. but in the end it’ll probably be used to make DRM (more) watertight.
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  544. j.r > j.r: yes it is. > But not in jabber OK bad to know
  545. jonasw you can of course invent something and try to make clients implement it. but if a new (or very old) client doesn’t implement it, tough luck.
  546. jonasw not to mention actively evil clients
  547. j.r > you can of course invent something and try to make clients implement it. but if a new (or very old) client doesn’t implement it, tough luck. > not to mention actively evil clients Ok
  548. jonasw but an actively evil telegram client or a thing which screencaps the device/whatever would do the same
  549. jonasw self-destructing messages is bullshit
  550. Zash You can have an <please-delete-me after="timestamp"/>, but you can't be 100% sure that it'll be respected
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  552. Zash If you are ok with that then go for it
  553. jonasw yeah, that
  554. Zash Altho that applies to all protocol
  555. j.r > You can have an <please-delete-me after="timestamp"/>, but you can't be 100% sure that it'll be respected > If you are ok with that then go for it But that's possible?
  556. Zash Thanks to the X in XMPP, yes
  557. Zash And with caps, you can know if other clients claim to suppport it
  558. Zash But with MAM and carbons...
  559. jonasw you’d have to check that all the peers clients and the peers MAM support it.
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  562. Zash And your own MAM
  563. jonasw and then hope that they don’t come online after you sending t he message with another client which supports MAM but not your fancy deletion protocol
  564. jonasw yeah, that too
  565. Zash and your own other clients
  566. jonasw lots of moving parts
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  569. Zash So, not really something that can reliably be deployed in an open system
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  572. j.r OK thank you
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  576. Kev Deeply offtopic, but - if installing a Linux desktop these days, does one bother with swap? 16GB RAM.
  577. jonasw Kev, depends on whether you want to be able to do suspend-to-disk
  578. jonasw if not, probably not. killing whatever is eating 16 GiB RAM is *probably* better than freezing your system while trying to swap.
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  580. Kev Ta.
  581. jonasw especially if you do development work. I always try to remember to swapoff -a just in case I create memleak.
  582. jonasw *create a memleak
  583. Kev Just put an SSD in my games laptop and thought I might as well dual-boot Ubuntu. So let's see how badly this wrecks booting Windows :)
  584. Zash Swap enabled but swappiness tuned down
  585. jonasw (I once had a memleak which filled memory *so* fast that I didn’t realize it was a memleak and thought it was just killing the GPU (some graphics stuff). took me a while to realize...)
  586. Kev Good show.
  587. Zash IIRC the thing is that without swap, you get the OOM killer as soon as memory is filled
  588. jonasw yeah, that’s a feature if memory isn’t going to be filled unless by accident
  589. Zash s/by accident/by hip electron app of the month/
  590. jonasw looks at free
  591. pep. Kev: I don't have swap tbh, but I'm not a RAM eater
  592. jonasw Kev, okay, add some swap. I am currently at 21 GiB used and I don’t even know how.
  593. jonasw much of it seems to be firefox
  594. Zash looks at htop
  595. Kev Too late now, OS is half installed :(
  596. Zash Why is all my RAM used?
  597. jonasw ah well
  598. Zash WebKitWebProcess 25..38
  599. Zash And Firefox
  600. jonasw Kev, yeah, it’ll probably be fine. and if it isn’t, you can still add a swapfile
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  605. pep. Also btrfs. I would need to have a separate partition not as a volume like my rootfs or homefs
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  607. Zash has vm.swappiness=10 now apparently
  608. Zash I read some long rant that convinced me that running without swap was bad and swappiness=0 was bad
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  815. Ge0rG pep.: you should stop whatever you are doing and migrate away from btrfd
  816. Ge0rG *btrfs
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  884. marc Ge0rG, are you going to respond to Kevs mail regarding 401?
  885. vanitasvitae has left
  886. Ge0rG marc: the one about using data forms?
  887. vanitasvitae has left
  888. marc Ge0rG, the last one from 28.02
  889. marc ping
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  901. Ge0rG marc: I came to the conclusion that Kev is right and that data forms are the right way to go
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  905. marc Ge0rG: okay, if everybody is fine with it let's merge my two PRs?
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  908. Ge0rG marc: yes please. Cc jonasw
  909. Ge0rG marc: yes please. Cc jonasw
  910. Ge0rG marc: yes please. Cc jonasw
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  912. marc Ge0rG: did you write the last message two times?
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  914. moparisthebest j.r: is there any protocol where self destructing messages work?
  915. Ge0rG marc: no, it looks like a bug in yaxim
  916. moparisthebest Ie that prevents even something simple like a picture of the screen
  917. vanitasvitae has left
  918. marc Ge0rG: okay, because C shows it two times, Gajim only once
  919. moparisthebest Because you could implement it in xmpp the same way, and it'd work with the same level of security, that is, none
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  927. Ge0rG And yaxim shows it three times. 🤦‍♂️
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  930. Zash I see three, last one delayed
  931. Zash Out of order too
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  934. marc strange
  935. Ge0rG Could somebody pm me the raw xml please
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  951. Ge0rG Oh, looks like a race condition during stream resumption, where sending a message right before <resumed/> will duplicate it
  952. Ge0rG And then it also becomes an "offline message" in yaxim, causing a third transmission
  953. Zash It doesn't actually get sent on the wire before <resumed/> tho?
  954. Zash orwait
  955. Ge0rG Zash: it's sent after <resume>
  956. Zash Between <resume> and <resumed> be dragons.
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  958. Ge0rG Yes. Plenty of them
  959. Zash It's nice being the server in that case.
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  961. Ge0rG Zash: because you can just queue messages as long as there is a zombie session?
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  1030. edhelas https://petermolnar.net/instant-messenger-hell/
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