XSF Discussion - 2018-03-04


  1. Dave Cridland has left
  2. moparisthebest has joined
  3. dwd has joined
  4. dwd has left
  5. Dave Cridland has left
  6. Guus has left
  7. ralphm has joined
  8. dwd has joined
  9. Dave Cridland has left
  10. Dave Cridland has left
  11. dwd has left
  12. marmistrz has joined
  13. Dave Cridland has left
  14. dwd has joined
  15. Dave Cridland has left
  16. Dave Cridland has left
  17. Dave Cridland has joined
  18. marmistrz has left
  19. Dave Cridland has left
  20. Dave Cridland has left
  21. Dave Cridland has left
  22. Dave Cridland has left
  23. Dave Cridland has left
  24. Dave Cridland has left
  25. vanitasvitae has left
  26. ralphm has left
  27. SaltyBones wait icq is still useable?
  28. Zash Wait Telegram does everything right?
  29. Zash Should I even bother reading the rest?
  30. Dave Cridland has left
  31. Dave Cridland has left
  32. dwd has left
  33. dwd has joined
  34. Dave Cridland has left
  35. Guus has left
  36. Dave Cridland has left
  37. Dave Cridland has left
  38. Dave Cridland has left
  39. Dave Cridland has joined
  40. boothj5 has left
  41. Dave Cridland has left
  42. dwd has left
  43. moparisthebest has joined
  44. Dave Cridland has left
  45. Dave Cridland has left
  46. dwd has joined
  47. moparisthebest has left
  48. Dave Cridland has left
  49. moparisthebest has joined
  50. Dave Cridland has left
  51. Dave Cridland has left
  52. Guus has left
  53. Dave Cridland has left
  54. Dave Cridland has left
  55. dwd has left
  56. Dave Cridland has left
  57. Guus has left
  58. Dave Cridland has left
  59. ralphm has left
  60. rtq3 has left
  61. Dave Cridland has left
  62. SaltyBones has left
  63. Dave Cridland has left
  64. Guus has left
  65. Dave Cridland has left
  66. moparisthebest has joined
  67. Guus has left
  68. Dave Cridland has left
  69. Syndace has left
  70. Syndace has joined
  71. Dave Cridland has left
  72. Guus has left
  73. Dave Cridland has left
  74. Zash has left
  75. lskdjf has left
  76. Dave Cridland has left
  77. Guus has left
  78. ralphm has left
  79. tux has joined
  80. moparisthebest has joined
  81. vanitasvitae has left
  82. Guus has left
  83. daniel has left
  84. daniel has joined
  85. Guus has left
  86. dwd has left
  87. Dave Cridland has left
  88. Dave Cridland has left
  89. Guus has left
  90. ralphm has joined
  91. lskdjf has left
  92. lskdjf has joined
  93. Dave Cridland has left
  94. dwd has left
  95. Dave Cridland has left
  96. dwd has left
  97. dwd has joined
  98. Dave Cridland has left
  99. lskdjf has joined
  100. lskdjf has joined
  101. Dave Cridland has left
  102. Guus has left
  103. Dave Cridland has left
  104. SamWhited has left
  105. dwd has left
  106. Dave Cridland has left
  107. ralphm has left
  108. Dave Cridland has left
  109. Guus has left
  110. Dave Cridland has left
  111. Ge0rG has left
  112. Dave Cridland has left
  113. Guus has left
  114. jere has joined
  115. daniel has left
  116. daniel has joined
  117. ralphm has left
  118. dwd has joined
  119. Guus has left
  120. moparisthebest has left
  121. Syndace has left
  122. Syndace has joined
  123. Guus has left
  124. Dave Cridland has left
  125. dwd has left
  126. Dave Cridland has left
  127. rion has joined
  128. Guus has left
  129. Dave Cridland has left
  130. dwd has joined
  131. Guus has joined
  132. Dave Cridland has left
  133. Dave Cridland has left
  134. dwd has left
  135. ralphm has left
  136. rion has left
  137. rion has joined
  138. rion has left
  139. Guus has left
  140. Dave Cridland has left
  141. Dave Cridland has left
  142. Guus has left
  143. Dave Cridland has left
  144. Zash has left
  145. Zash has left
  146. ralphm has left
  147. Guus has left
  148. Dave Cridland has left
  149. Guus has left
  150. dwd has left
  151. Guus has left
  152. ralphm has left
  153. Guus has left
  154. Zash has left
  155. Guus has left
  156. Guus has left
  157. Dave Cridland has left
  158. ralphm has left
  159. Guus has left
  160. Guus has left
  161. Guus has left
  162. efrit has left
  163. rion has left
  164. Guus has left
  165. Guus has left
  166. Guus has left
  167. moparisthebest has joined
  168. mimi89999 has left
  169. mimi89999 has joined
  170. mimi89999 has joined
  171. Dave Cridland has left
  172. dwd has left
  173. Guus has left
  174. dwd has left
  175. marmistrz has joined
  176. Guus has left
  177. moparisthebest has left
  178. rtq3 has joined
  179. rtq3 has left
  180. Guus has left
  181. Dave Cridland has left
  182. rtq3 has joined
  183. rtq3 has left
  184. Guus has left
  185. rion has left
  186. Guus has left
  187. ralphm has left
  188. la|r|ma has joined
  189. rtq3 has joined
  190. Guus has left
  191. Guus has left
  192. Guus has left
  193. Dave Cridland has left
  194. dwd has left
  195. goffi has joined
  196. Dave Cridland has left
  197. Dave Cridland has left
  198. rtq3 has left
  199. Dave Cridland has left
  200. Guus has left
  201. daniel has left
  202. daniel has left
  203. mrdoctorwho has left
  204. Dave Cridland has left
  205. rtq3 has joined
  206. Dave Cridland has left
  207. Yagiza has joined
  208. Yagiza has left
  209. Yagiza has joined
  210. Yagiza has left
  211. Yagiza has joined
  212. Dave Cridland has left
  213. mrdoctorwho has joined
  214. Dave Cridland has left
  215. flow jonasw, after re-reading xep390 I wonder if the ASCII separators are valid in the separated strings itself. I know it likely qualifies as nit, but if they are valid then couldn't one could generate indistinguishable feature sets?
  216. Dave Cridland has left
  217. daniel has left
  218. Dave Cridland has left
  219. Dave Cridland has left
  220. daniel flow: they are forbidden in xml if that answers the question
  221. moparisthebest has joined
  222. Dave Cridland has left
  223. flow daniel, probably does, thanks
  224. flow although https://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#NT-Char only discourages those
  225. la|r|ma has joined
  226. Dave Cridland has left
  227. moparisthebest has joined
  228. daniel OK let me rephrase. It was the intention of the xep to use something that is forbidden in xml or xmpp (can remember which). I didn't actually check that myself. Maybe jonasw messed up 😀
  229. Dave Cridland has left
  230. flow Na, it's probably a XML 1.0 vs 1.1 thingy
  231. flow in 1.1 the separators appear to be valid but discouraged, and in 1.0 they are invalid
  232. flow fun
  233. mimi89999 has joined
  234. Dave Cridland has left
  235. Guus has left
  236. Guus has left
  237. daniel has left
  238. daniel has left
  239. Dave Cridland has left
  240. daniel has left
  241. daniel has left
  242. daniel has joined
  243. Dave Cridland has left
  244. Guus has left
  245. daniel has left
  246. lovetox has joined
  247. Dave Cridland has left
  248. lovetox why do we have that in 0313
  249. lovetox These IDs are strings that servers may construct in any manner, and clients must treat as opaque strings (e.g. there is no requirement for them to be numeric, sequenced or GUIDs).
  250. lovetox is it not the most natural thing for a database to have a numeric index
  251. Dave Cridland has left
  252. SaltyBones lovetox, might be since you have to query for timestamp and interface with different DBs it might look different
  253. lovetox SaltyBones, 1. you dont have to query with a timestamp
  254. lovetox 2. this has nothing to do with why it would be some bad constraint for the server to have a numeric index as ID
  255. lovetox i bet every server has
  256. Dave Cridland has left
  257. SaltyBones lovetox, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-03-01/ 16:50
  258. SaltyBones lovetox, according to MattJ Prosody alone uses multiple formats.
  259. lovetox i know that servers use different formats, its just not clear why
  260. lovetox there is no faster search in an archive as with a numeric index
  261. lovetox also i see no need to encode other informations into the index if i have a row with columns that can hold these information
  262. Dave Cridland has left
  263. dwd has left
  264. Dave Cridland has left
  265. Dave Cridland has left
  266. daniel has left
  267. daniel has left
  268. Dave Cridland has left
  269. Seve/SouL has left
  270. Seve/SouL has joined
  271. lovetox as i see it using a numeric sequential index as id, would open up more possibilites with MAM, and i dont see the downside for the server
  272. daniel has left
  273. jubalh has joined
  274. SaltyBones Which possibilities
  275. lovetox it currently makes no sense to request a certain id from an archive
  276. lovetox because you dont know where to place it
  277. lovetox because there is no order information in the ID
  278. jubalh has left
  279. Dave Cridland has left
  280. dwd has left
  281. daniel has left
  282. Ge0rG lovetox: it makes sense for ranged requests. Give me the first 50 messages after X. Then you'll have a new last ID of Y, and ask for the next 50 after Y
  283. dwd has left
  284. lovetox thats how we use MAM now yes
  285. lovetox this would not change
  286. lovetox it doesnt depend on the ID beeing numeric or not, this works with any kind of ID
  287. lovetox and with numeric i mean sequenced
  288. marmistrz has left
  289. dwd has left
  290. Dave Cridland has left
  291. dwd has joined
  292. jubalh has joined
  293. Dave Cridland has left
  294. Dave Cridland has left
  295. dwd has left
  296. winfried has left
  297. Ge0rG lovetox: do you see any benefit in enforcing a certain implementation optimization into the XEP?
  298. lumi has joined
  299. jubalh has left
  300. j.r has joined
  301. mimi89999 has joined
  302. j.r has joined
  303. rtq3 has left
  304. jonasw flow, all XML parsers I tried rejected them even in entity form
  305. intosi has joined
  306. jonasw so it would at least be massively unsafe to use them in XMPP and get you disconnected very likely
  307. Alex has joined
  308. lskdjf has joined
  309. nyco has left
  310. marmistrz has left
  311. lskdjf has left
  312. jubalh has joined
  313. lskdjf has joined
  314. jubalh has joined
  315. jubalh has joined
  316. lskdjf has joined
  317. lskdjf has joined
  318. lskdjf has left
  319. lskdjf has joined
  320. lskdjf has left
  321. lskdjf has joined
  322. Dave Cridland has left
  323. dwd has joined
  324. Dave Cridland has left
  325. Nekit has joined
  326. lskdjf has joined
  327. daniel has left
  328. rion has joined
  329. Ge0rG has left
  330. Nekit has joined
  331. j.r has joined
  332. j.r has left
  333. j.r has joined
  334. flow yep, because they are disallowed in XML 1.0 (but not 1.1)
  335. flow jonasw ^
  336. rion has left
  337. jubalh has left
  338. jere has joined
  339. jonasw flow, yeah...
  340. jonasw RFC 6120 depends on XML 1.0 though
  341. flow I wonder if xep30 should specify string preperation for the various values
  342. Kev has joined
  343. flow jonasw, I'd love to add some rationale to xep390 explaining the situation. What do you think?
  344. Alex has left
  345. jonasw flow, like this? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#security-separators
  346. jonasw one could add a mention that RFC 6120 bases on XML 1.0 and not 1.1
  347. j.r has joined
  348. matlag has left
  349. matlag has left
  350. matlag has left
  351. Nekit has left
  352. Guus has left
  353. matlag has joined
  354. j.r has joined
  355. Maranda has left
  356. vanitasvitae has left
  357. Yagiza has left
  358. rtq3 has joined
  359. Tobias has joined
  360. valo has left
  361. valo has joined
  362. rtq3 has left
  363. Guus has left
  364. marmistrz has joined
  365. Dave Cridland has left
  366. dwd has left
  367. Yagiza has joined
  368. dwd has joined
  369. dwd has left
  370. nyco has left
  371. j.r has joined
  372. jere has joined
  373. j.r has joined
  374. Guus has left
  375. ralphm has left
  376. goffi has left
  377. efrit has joined
  378. Nekit has joined
  379. marmistrz has left
  380. lovetox has left
  381. Ge0rG has left
  382. marmistrz has left
  383. Nekit has joined
  384. jubalh has joined
  385. jubalh has left
  386. j.r has joined
  387. daniel has left
  388. j.r has joined
  389. Dave Cridland has left
  390. dwd has joined
  391. tux has left
  392. Nekit has left
  393. moparisthebest has joined
  394. Dave Cridland has left
  395. moparisthebest has joined
  396. dwd has left
  397. dwd has joined
  398. Dave Cridland has left
  399. rion has joined
  400. Dave Cridland has left
  401. Dave Cridland has left
  402. daniel has left
  403. j.r has joined
  404. daniel has joined
  405. dwd has left
  406. Guus has left
  407. marmistrz has left
  408. Nekit has joined
  409. ralphm has left
  410. j.r has joined
  411. Guus has left
  412. marmistrz has left
  413. Nekit has joined
  414. jubalh has joined
  415. jubalh has left
  416. Ge0rG has joined
  417. la|r|ma has left
  418. Nekit has left
  419. rion has left
  420. marc jonasw, what about merging my PRs for 401?
  421. jonasw can do that later today I guess
  422. jonasw remind me tonight maybe
  423. la|r|ma has left
  424. j.r has joined
  425. marc okay
  426. marc At least Ge0rG and Kev have no objections anymore :)
  427. Guus has left
  428. Dave Cridland has left
  429. dwd has joined
  430. Dave Cridland has left
  431. j.r has joined
  432. jere has joined
  433. marc has left
  434. marc has left
  435. Yagiza has left
  436. Nekit has left
  437. Nekit has left
  438. winfried has joined
  439. Dave Cridland has left
  440. dwd has left
  441. Yagiza has joined
  442. Yagiza has left
  443. Yagiza has joined
  444. dwd has joined
  445. marc has joined
  446. Dave Cridland has left
  447. marc has left
  448. marc has joined
  449. Dave Cridland has left
  450. Ge0rG has left
  451. dwd has left
  452. jere has joined
  453. Dave Cridland has left
  454. dwd has joined
  455. vanitasvitae has left
  456. la|r|ma has left
  457. la|r|ma has joined
  458. Zash has joined
  459. rion has joined
  460. tux has joined
  461. rion has left
  462. dwd has left
  463. dwd has joined
  464. j.r has joined
  465. Tobias has joined
  466. Ge0rG has left
  467. dwd has left
  468. jubalh has joined
  469. Dave Cridland has left
  470. j.r has joined
  471. marc has left
  472. dwd has joined
  473. Zash has left
  474. jubalh has left
  475. jubalh has joined
  476. Dave Cridland has left
  477. Maranda has left
  478. Dave Cridland has left
  479. jere has joined
  480. Maranda has left
  481. j.r has joined
  482. Maranda has left
  483. Dave Cridland has left
  484. dwd has left
  485. j.r has joined
  486. Yagiza has left
  487. Maranda has left
  488. Maranda has joined
  489. Maranda has left
  490. Maranda has joined
  491. dwd has left
  492. Tobias has joined
  493. Zash has joined
  494. mimi89999 has joined
  495. Nekit has left
  496. Nekit has joined
  497. mimi89999 has joined
  498. Maranda has left
  499. Maranda has joined
  500. j.r has joined
  501. Maranda has left
  502. matlag has left
  503. matlag has joined
  504. tux has joined
  505. Guus has left
  506. Dave Cridland has left
  507. dwd has left
  508. dwd has joined
  509. lskdjf has joined
  510. jere has joined
  511. Guus has left
  512. jubalh has left
  513. dwd has left
  514. j.r has joined
  515. Dave Cridland has left
  516. dwd has joined
  517. Dave Cridland has left
  518. ralphm has left
  519. la|r|ma has joined
  520. Dave Cridland has left
  521. Dave Cridland has left
  522. rtq3 has joined
  523. dwd has left
  524. dwd has joined
  525. Yagiza has joined
  526. Yagiza has left
  527. Yagiza has joined
  528. rion has joined
  529. daniel has left
  530. Yagiza has left
  531. moparisthebest Haha looking for backup solution and see jonasw commenting, do you still use Borg? :)
  532. j.r has joined
  533. jonasw moparisthebest, yes
  534. moparisthebest Btrfs send/receive solves all my problems except on this one machine that is ext4 :( Borg looks like a good candidate though
  535. flow is a happy borg user too
  536. dwd has left
  537. Ge0rG moparisthebest: btrfs will solve all your problems by corrupting your data and laughing in your face.
  538. jonasw hah
  539. Dave Cridland has left
  540. moparisthebest Ge0rG: my years of using it everywhere say otherwise, so far I've had corrupt (restore from backup) ext4 twice and only partially broken (still readable) btrfs once
  541. dwd has joined
  542. Dave Cridland has left
  543. marmistrz has left
  544. j.r has joined
  545. Dave Cridland has left
  546. moparisthebest All those failures happened on a machine with a bad PSU that caused them btw
  547. Ge0rG moparisthebest: btrfs has some nice checksumming features, but they tend to fail on EMEM and have a huge scary warning instead of just fixing their RAID: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID56
  548. marc has joined
  549. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks for #585
  550. marc jonasw, thanks for merging
  551. moparisthebest Oh yea 5/6 has never been useable, 0/1/10 has been solid for years though
  552. stuxnet has joined
  553. Ge0rG moparisthebest: not if you want to have 16TB of data on a 2GB RAM machine.
  554. moparisthebest I have a 32tb array on a 16gb machine and it uses hardly any ram
  555. sezuan has joined
  556. moparisthebest I can't imagine running a server with 2gb ram
  557. Zash All my servers have 2GB RAM
  558. SamWhited Most of my servers have 1 GB of ram…
  559. moparisthebest Giant storage servers?
  560. SamWhited No, I don't remember how much is in my big storage server. It's probably 2 or 4.
  561. moparisthebest I mean if you are saying btrfs uses more memory then ext4 then sure, Linux uses more memory than an Arduino too, it's got a few more features though
  562. SamWhited I also have never had a problem with memory due to ZFS (which is broadly similar and people use the same complaint about it), so I dispute both of these arguments (that 16 gigs of ram can be expected, but also that the filesystem uses up too much ram)
  563. Dave Cridland has left
  564. Dave Cridland has left
  565. waqas has joined
  566. moparisthebest Yea I agree I don't think btrfs uses much ram
  567. Ge0rG SamWhited: the usual ZFS tutorials all begin with a huge red warning that your data is already as good as gone if you don't have 16GB or more RAM
  568. SamWhited Depends how big your storage pool is; 1GB of RAM per TB of storage is a good general guess for how much space you'll want for a cache.
  569. Ge0rG SamWhited: and regarding bitter btrfs experiences, I happen to have a documented case: https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org/msg48375.html
  570. Ge0rG ...with too little RAM
  571. jjrh has left
  572. tux has joined
  573. Ge0rG SamWhited: the question is actually how much *kernel memory* is needed to operate the fs, because you can't swap the kernel
  574. moparisthebest I don't run swap either meh
  575. SamWhited oh yah, that's poor
  576. Dave Cridland has left
  577. dwd has left
  578. stuxnet has left
  579. stuxnet has joined
  580. dwd has left
  581. tux has joined
  582. Yagiza has joined
  583. j.r has joined
  584. Guus has left
  585. Yagiza has left
  586. Guus has left
  587. j.r has joined
  588. la|r|ma has joined
  589. la|r|ma has joined
  590. Yagiza has joined
  591. Yagiza has left
  592. daniel has left
  593. Yagiza has joined
  594. Guus has left
  595. tux has joined
  596. Guus has left
  597. Maranda has joined
  598. Yagiza has left
  599. Yagiza has joined
  600. jubalh has joined
  601. nyco has left
  602. j.r has joined
  603. daniel has left
  604. SamWhited has left
  605. marc Does Cisco Jabber comply with the XMPP standard?
  606. Maranda huhu
  607. daniel has left
  608. Ge0rG marc: at least on cisco.com they still dont have TLS
  609. daniel has joined
  610. Zash Looks like they do on c2s?
  611. marc Ge0rG, is Cisco Jabber SaaS or do they provide a server software?
  612. stuxnet Security and Cisco - what do you dream at night?
  613. marmistrz has left
  614. Yagiza has left
  615. Maranda marc, [19:58:22] ‎Echo1‎: Maranda: cisco.com is running jabberd version 7.26.0.40895 on an unknown platform
  616. marc haha
  617. marc https://check.messaging.one/result.php?domain=cisco.com&type=client
  618. Maranda marc, don't ask me what kind of a hack of jabberd14 that is because I don't know and I don't want to know.
  619. Maranda jabberd14 or jabberd that is.
  620. marc Maranda, according to Holger it is not related to the jabberd project all atl
  621. Zash Jabber XCP or something
  622. Maranda Zash, who knows. https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/products/collateral/unified-communications/jabber-windows/jabber-xcp-retirement-message.pdf
  623. Holger Yeah it's no longer called XCP.
  624. Holger https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/
  625. Holger marc: They sell the server software.
  626. Holger (Usually integrated with their VoIP stuff these days.)
  627. j.r has joined
  628. marc Holger, ah okay. yes, the VoIP stuff is the reason why some people want to move from ejabberd(!) to cisco jabber ôÔ
  629. Holger Yup.
  630. Maranda facepalms.
  631. marc Because it works well with the Cisco Phones :D
  632. marc :(
  633. rion has left
  634. Holger Yes I get how this is nice for the enterprise use case.
  635. Holger Unfortunately their XMPP support degraded over the past few years.
  636. Holger They never implemented the modern XEPs and now slowly come up with proprietary extensions to support the multi-device/mobile stuff.
  637. marc Holger, does it mean that the phones will use VoIP via the jabber server or what's the use case?
  638. Holger marc: No it's mostly just an integrated address book for both (which can be Microsoft AD) and that you see the phone presence (or initiate calls) in your chat app. Stuff like that.
  639. Holger Their VoIP is just SIP.
  640. marc Holger, Sounds like very boring stuff to me. What does phone presence mean?
  641. Holger You're currently in a call or not.
  642. Holger My co-workers love it.
  643. Holger Well the administration people.
  644. Holger Staff council not so much.
  645. Dave Cridland has left
  646. dwd has left
  647. dwd has joined
  648. Dave Cridland has left
  649. Zash Hmm, something XMPP-optimized similar to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls-02 ?
  650. stuxnet has joined
  651. Yagiza has joined
  652. Yagiza has left
  653. Yagiza has joined
  654. Yagiza has left
  655. Dave Cridland has left
  656. dwd has left
  657. Maranda has joined
  658. Nekit has left
  659. Nekit has joined
  660. Guus has left
  661. Dave Cridland has left
  662. dwd has joined
  663. Dave Cridland has left
  664. Dave Cridland has left
  665. Dave Cridland has left
  666. Guus has left
  667. Guus has left
  668. j.r has joined
  669. jubalh has joined
  670. j.r has joined
  671. lovetox has joined
  672. j.r has joined
  673. j.r has joined
  674. tux has joined
  675. rion has joined
  676. goffi has joined
  677. rion has left
  678. la|r|ma has joined
  679. rion has joined
  680. la|r|ma has joined
  681. daniel has left
  682. goffi has left
  683. stuxnet has joined
  684. goffi has joined
  685. jubalh has left
  686. marmistrz has left
  687. Tobias has joined
  688. marmistrz has left
  689. rion has left
  690. stuxnet has joined
  691. Dave Cridland has left
  692. dwd has left
  693. dwd has joined
  694. lskdjf has joined
  695. ChaosKid42 has joined
  696. dwd has left
  697. vanitasvitae has left
  698. jonasw has left
  699. winfried has left
  700. marc has left
  701. winfried has joined
  702. jubalh has joined
  703. jere has joined
  704. j.r has joined
  705. boothj5 has joined
  706. valo has left
  707. valo has joined
  708. jubalh has left
  709. j.r has joined
  710. ChaosKid42 has left
  711. ChaosKid42 has joined
  712. daniel has left
  713. daniel has joined
  714. boothj5 has left
  715. boothj5 has joined
  716. daniel has left
  717. daniel has joined
  718. sezuan has left
  719. j.r has joined
  720. j.r has joined
  721. Maranda has joined
  722. jubalh has joined
  723. marmistrz has left
  724. jubalh has left
  725. Dave Cridland has left
  726. marmistrz has left
  727. ralphm has joined
  728. dwd has joined
  729. dwd has left
  730. boothj5 has left
  731. lumi has joined
  732. Guus has left
  733. goffi has left
  734. tux has left
  735. mimi89999 has joined
  736. efrit has left
  737. lskdjf has joined
  738. ThurahT has left
  739. ThurahT has joined
  740. jere has left
  741. Dave Cridland has left
  742. Dave Cridland has left
  743. Dave Cridland has left
  744. dwd has joined
  745. winfried has left
  746. winfried has joined
  747. winfried has left
  748. Dave Cridland has left
  749. Dave Cridland has left
  750. winfried has joined
  751. Guus has left
  752. Kev I feel I'm missing something with this MAM thread, as he seems to be asking for a whole bunch of things that MAM can already do.
  753. Kev Has anyone else got a better grasp on what he's asking? He asked me in private too, and I suggested he take it to the list, but it's not explained it to me any better.
  754. winfried has joined
  755. Dave Cridland has left
  756. Dave Cridland has left
  757. dwd has left
  758. Holger has left
  759. Zash If you have some random MAM id, how do you retrieve that specific message?
  760. Dave Cridland has left
  761. Kev If you have some random MAM id, why do you need that particular message? The holes he talks about are bounded by ids, and you can request the messages between two ids.
  762. dwd has left
  763. lovetox he just finds it inefficient
  764. dwd has left
  765. Kev Yes, that's the confusing thing. If you want the messages, then first asking for the ids and then asking for the messages is obviously inefficient.
  766. dwd has joined
  767. Kev Assuming you're getting the same ids and messages in both cases - which you seem to be able to do for all his use cases.
  768. lovetox i guess he doenst want to load all these messages
  769. Kev He says he does.
  770. Dave Cridland has left
  771. lovetox instead he wants to load them later when looked at or something like that
  772. lovetox also i think he has plotted out his client architecture without looking how the xep works first
  773. waqas I skimmed through the thread. His mental model is a bit different than our normal one.
  774. waqas His model makes sense if this was REST/HATEOS
  775. dwd has left
  776. waqas Or in cases where IDs have some significance or order is missing
  777. dwd has joined
  778. waqas But MAM isn't syncing of a key-value store, its syncing of a log, where content matters and IDs only play a supporting role.
  779. Holger has left
  780. Dave Cridland has left
  781. dwd has left
  782. waqas MAM is like git, and unlike e.g., file system sync.
  783. Dave Cridland has left
  784. dwd has joined
  785. dwd has left
  786. Zash How is MAM like git?
  787. Kev It's sequenced.
  788. Kev You use the content of one item to find the previous item, linked-list stylee.
  789. waqas Yes, and you'd notice similarities if you look at the git/hg/etc sync protocols
  790. waqas Where commit hashes (ids) are used more like database cursors, even if you'd otherwise think of them as database primary keys.
  791. waqas This is very common in log sync protocols
  792. Zash I'd like to think that MAM is much simpler than dvcs sync protocols
  793. Kev I'm not sure why. Optimisations aside, git sync is very straightforward.
  794. Kev (And then the optimisations and details make it all much less pleasant, naturally)
  795. waqas Yes, git sync is very simple at its core
  796. SamWhited has left
  797. Zash I don't know how git sync works. I only read the mailing list posts where it was said to be just scp/rsync/whatever
  798. waqas rsync is different, and more like what that person wants
  799. Zash By "rsync" I mean "just transfer the files"
  800. ChaosKid42 has joined
  801. daniel has joined
  802. Zash If it were truly a content-addressable thing, that would work
  803. waqas The protocol requires both sides to scan the entire dataset in rsync :)
  804. waqas Because there is no order
  805. Zash But that'd be rsyncs problem, not git
  806. waqas Yep, because git can have a much simpler protocol due to commit ordering, "give me everything since this hash"
  807. Kev a la MAM
  808. Zash I'd imagine it'd be "between this hash and this branch/label/named commit"
  809. waqas Other examples of log sync protocols include kafka's sync, db replication protocols used by mysql/postgres/mongodb/etc all of which implement a write ahead log, etc
  810. waqas At their core if you ignore implementation specific bells and whistles, it's the same logic
  811. Zash Fetching stuff from one DAG to another ought to be more complicated
  812. Zash What I've seen of the hg protocol seems to agree
  813. waqas The main compleixity beyond MAM is multiple local and remote heads (or hg branches). It's largely the client communicating what it has and what it wants up to, give_me(from_hash_list, to_hash_list), plus some protocol elements and local git config to figure out what the server has.
  814. Maranda has left
  815. Guus has left
  816. jere has joined
  817. jere has left
  818. jere has joined
  819. Dave Cridland has left
  820. Dave Cridland has left
  821. dwd has joined
  822. Guus has left
  823. Dave Cridland has left