XSF Discussion - 2018-03-06


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  210. Ge0rG pep.: there is an alternative development in https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/tree/bootstrapless
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  212. Ge0rG pep.: unfortunately, Martin and me did some work in parallel, because I forgot to push 🤦
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  222. Zash What hip new framework is that? Is it anything like vanillajs?
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  227. jonasw Ge0rG, did you mean to ping marc?
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  234. Ge0rG jonasw: right, I must've been scrolling too fast.
  235. Ge0rG Sorry pep., I meant to respond to marc indeed.
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  237. Zash Redshift?
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  280. pep. Ge0rG: thanks for the info ;)
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  422. Ge0rG jonasw: is there a tool to maintain xeps/xep.ent? I'm missing &xep0401; for an update to PARS.
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  424. jonasw Ge0rG, not yet
  425. jonasw I can either update it right now or you can do it yourself
  426. jonasw please pick one
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  429. Ge0rG jonasw: please do so, thanks :)
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  438. jonasw Ge0rG, I guess I don’t need to botehr with issueing a deferral for XEP-0379 (PARS) then? ;-)
  439. jonasw Ge0rG, xep.ent updates pushed
  440. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks very much. I have had some pending minor changes for 0379 that I wanted to push before mid-Feb.
  441. Ge0rG Wanted and failed to.
  442. jonasw lets keep the spam low and defer the deferral for now then
  443. Ge0rG Thanks
  444. jonasw tbh it’s more laziness than anything else ;-)
  445. jonasw that and trying to prevent my domain from getting a bad spam score for all those mails ;-)
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  448. Ge0rG Would it make sense to have the same xmlns for 0379 and 0401?
  449. Ge0rG 0401: <preauth xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite:1'/> 0379: <preauth xmlns='urn:xmpp:pars:0' token='1tMFqYDdKhfe2pwp' />
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  451. jonasw only if you want to tie into namespace bumps of either
  452. jonasw otherwise I’d suggest not to
  453. jonasw but I lack context
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  455. Ge0rG Right. That might be unfortunate.
  456. Ge0rG Though I'd like to burn the notion of namespace bumps with fire anyway.
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  458. jonasw what’s your suggestion what we should be doing instead?
  459. Ge0rG jonasw: feature-flags
  460. Zash and the difference is?
  461. jonasw hm, those help in some cases, but they don’t always make sense
  462. Ge0rG Zash: the difference is that it's a better protocol design and that it won't break people's expectations when they upgrade conversations without also upgrading ejabberd.
  463. jonasw Ge0rG, how?
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  465. jonasw the http upload update is a particularly bad example. it changed the whole syntax of the thing
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  467. jonasw even *if* that was represented by a feature, you’d still most likely implement only one variant.
  468. Ge0rG Hm.
  469. Ge0rG Maybe I haven't thought through this.
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  471. Zash It's less terrible once the protocol becomes more stable
  472. jonasw it helps with small things; if there had not been a syntax change but merely the addition of support for http headers, sure, that would work fine as a feature. however, the server would also need to detect that the client supports that. requires either caps, an additional roundtrip or a payload in the request.
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  474. Zash More options doesn't equal better
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  476. Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/599
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  478. jonasw I don’t consider the URI change editorial fWIW
  479. jonasw but that doesn’t matter for you
  480. Ge0rG I don't even like the URI change.
  481. jonasw (it *does* matter in the sense that this would otherwise have been the trigger for a discussion on whether purely editorial changes should delay deferral)
  482. Ge0rG I could be asking for a Last Call instead, but somehow nobody implemented PARS in the last year.
  483. jonasw I’m sorry
  484. jonasw (I actually am)
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  486. Ge0rG I am as well, because I considered this a very effective way to make Jabber user onboarding easier.
  487. Ge0rG Unfortunately, some other widely-used implementation's author objected on formal grounds.
  488. jonasw C?
  489. Ge0rG Oh, in unrelated news: it seems like yaxim has over 100k total downloads on Google Play. I'm impressed
  490. jonasw lz
  491. jonasw (that’s like gz, but different)
  492. Ge0rG So different I'm not getting it. Sorry.
  493. Zash zstd?
  494. jonasw Ge0rG, man lzop
  495. Ge0rG jonasw: so while I'm impressed, you are compressed?
  496. jonasw Ge0rG, oh dear. so, gz is a short form of a leety "congratz" from back in the olden days when that was cool. or people thought it was cool.
  497. jonasw does that help?
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  499. Ge0rG jonasw: ah, now I see the arc you are bending. Thanks.
  500. jonasw docker hub has the worst web UI ever.
  501. jonasw i have no idea why I need to "cancel" a build like three times before it takes effect. the first time the UI just won’t respond at all, the second it’ll change the button to "cancelling" but nothing further happens (after a reload it’s back to normal), the third one is finally effective
  502. jonasw not to mention the "X minutes ago" timestamps which only refresh on areload
  503. jonasw but which somehow suggest that the view was live
  504. jonasw </rant>
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  506. Zash Pray to the Browser overlords for magic no-js fuzzy styling of <time> tags
  507. jonasw Kev, wouldn’t a nicer way to do that "MAM <before/>+<after/>" be a form field in the query?
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  510. lovetox it not only nicer, anything else would be in every way wrong
  511. Zash But paging is defined by RSM.
  512. jonasw Zash, that’s exactly why I’d prefer to have this in the form. alternatively, define the direction in that case via the form.
  513. jonasw and update RSM accordingly
  514. jonasw lovetox, regarding "start to sync again from that ID", that might be arbitrarily inefficient.
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  516. lovetox we already concluded that mam is sometimes inefficient
  517. jonasw no need to make it worse :)
  518. lovetox RSM has nothing to do with what you want to do
  519. jonasw lovetox, huh;
  520. lovetox you want to query archive-id 😶 to archive-id = Y
  521. jonasw there’s an emoji in your message
  522. lovetox that should be defined in the query to MAM, like startime and endtime
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  524. jonasw that sounds reasonable, but everyone is just talking about using <before/> and <after/> for that
  525. lovetox RSM is only for browsing the result
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  527. lovetox that makes no sense
  528. Zash FWIW, in Prosody, direction is set to backwards if <before/> is present
  529. Zash What happens after that depends on the lower storage layer
  530. MattJ Zash, is that even standard?
  531. lovetox <before/> gives you the last page of a result
  532. lovetox that is standard
  533. Zash MattJ: What, exactly, are you asking?
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  535. MattJ Zash, afair in XEP-0313 results are always transmitted chronologically
  536. jonasw votes to close MattJs question as "Unclear what you’re asking"
  537. jonasw (scnr and just kidding)
  538. Zash MattJ: That's taken care of. This is different.
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  540. Zash So you should get a page where the last item preceeds the one identified by <before>
  541. Zash If you set <after> ... then either the results include that item or they don't
  542. Maranda votes for "they don't"
  543. Zash There's no voting
  544. Maranda Aw
  545. jonasw Zash, tell that to council
  546. intosi Zash: FWIW, in M-Link direction is set to backwards if <before/> is present, as well.
  547. intosi And specifying after never includes that item in the result set, regardless of whether you used before or not.
  548. Maranda I think that's how most implementations would do anyways? Is there any "black sheep" not doing that 🤔?
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  551. Maranda (about <before /> going backward from x)
  552. intosi MattJ: the way I read RSM, that's how it should behave. before/ is quite explicit about directionality :)
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  554. Zash I'm not promising that all Prosodys storage backends deal with the value of <after> if <before> is also present
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  557. Kev > jonasw > Kev, wouldn’t a nicer way to do that "MAM <before/>+<after/>" be a form field in the query? Why? RSM's already defined.
  558. Zash Does RSM define what happens if you include both?
  559. intosi Zash: it does not. But it similarly doesn't tell you you can't.
  560. jonasw Kev, I checked the other day and didn’t find a definition of what happens both <before/> and <after/> are given.
  561. Kev Zash: No, but if we're just careful in 313 that we explain it, we're golden.
  562. Kev I'm not suggesting that no text tweak to 313 is needed. Just that we already have the protocol and don't need to invent more.
  563. Maranda just checked, he doesn't handle a case if both are present.
  564. Maranda 🤔
  565. jonasw Kev, I’d argue anything which specifies RSM behaviour should not be in 313, but in the RSM XEP.
  566. Kev jonasw: I think that, in this case, I'd disagree.
  567. Kev But equally I wouldn't really mind it being in 59 either.
  568. Zash Default file based storage doesn't support both, so results would include the item in <after>.
  569. Maranda <before /><after>uuid</after> glitches a bit in my mind <before>uuid</before><after>uuid</after> sounds like in between
  570. Maranda And glitches too
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  572. intosi Maranda: your first example asks for the last items according to your requested page size, or some server default (might be inifity), but nothing that's uuid or older.
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  574. intosi Note that servers are very likely not to allow infinity-sized pages, as that's quite a burden on resources ;)
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  577. Ge0rG Is the RSM discussion led in the context of "Dusty Drafts"? :D
  578. Ge0rG intosi: I had to learn the hard way, that even with a limited page size a DB might still lock up the whole server for multiple minutes merely to count the total number of results.
  579. Zash O(n) all the things
  580. Ge0rG Mar 06 14:28:30 mod_log_slow_events warn Slow event 'iq-set/self/urn:xmpp:mam:2:query' took 12.01s: ...
  581. intosi YEs. Counting items is a terrible idea.
  582. Ge0rG intosi: except it's required by RSM
  583. intosi Just as expensive as generating the entire set, usually.
  584. intosi Ge0rG: read closely.
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  586. Holger > <jonasw> Kev, I'd argue anything which specifies RSM behaviour should not be in 313, but in the RSM XEP. +1. I don't want an RSM implementation and a separate MAM-RSM variant.
  587. intosi Obtaining the item count is, but including the number of items in 313 is weasleworded.
  588. intosi Obtaining the item count with RSM techniques is
  589. Ge0rG intosi: hm. "The responding entity then returns the item count, which MAY be approximate rather than precise if determining the exact number of items would be resource-intensive"
  590. Zash count=rand()
  591. Holger Just always return 42.
  592. intosi No, return requested+1 if you know there is more.
  593. intosi ;)
  594. Zash intosi: Isn't that implied by complete=false
  595. intosi No.
  596. Ge0rG In SQLite, adding a `LIMIT` clause will change the order, unless you have an explicit `ORDER BY` in which case it's still going through the whole list.
  597. intosi That indicates that between the items specified, you may not have returned all items you think there could be in the set.
  598. intosi Ge0rG: depends on which data set you order-by.
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  600. intosi Query optimisation is an art more than a science.
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  603. Ge0rG intosi: Unforuntately it is. Especially if you have abstracted away DB access through some generic library.
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  605. intosi Simple. Never do such a silly thing, unless you own the abstraction as well ;)
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  608. Ge0rG intosi: tell that Zash :P
  609. intosi Zash: what I said^
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  611. Zash intosi: Tell Ge0rG that SQL things are terrible and why we can't have nice things
  612. Ge0rG intosi: and don't tell me not to use software where I don't control the whole stack, down to CPU µcode.
  613. intosi ;)
  614. Ge0rG Because I'd rather spend my time on Easy XMPP
  615. Ge0rG I mean Jabber.
  616. Maranda well counting isn't an issue here (as I never operate on the database directly), yet since at the time reading RSM spec I thought a before+after combo wasn't a possibility I don't handle those cases.
  617. Ge0rG I mean Zimpies.
  618. Maranda Metronome will handle before but not after if both are present.
  619. jonasw Maranda, at least return an error when you can’t handle a case and know it :<
  620. Zash Ge0rG: How much do you care about the total anyways?
  621. Maranda jonasw, I'll add something to handle those now.
  622. Ge0rG Zash: I care about my server not lagging to death.
  623. Ge0rG Zash: no idea how much MAM-enabled clients rely on the `count` value
  624. jonasw Zash, just exploit 313 and return number-of-items+1
  625. Holger Maranda: Yes, I think it's quite obvious that the idea behind 0059 is to specify *either* <before/> *or* <after/>, and this is just not made explicit because the author didn't even consider the possibility to specify both.
  626. Zash If you disable archive pruning, it stops counting.
  627. Holger So I think we can't just cheat and allow both in 0313.
  628. ChaosKid42 has joined
  629. Holger (Though I clearly see the use-case of course.)
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  631. jonasw lovetox suggested to use form fields instead of <before/>+<after/>, which I find sane
  632. Kev Holger: I don't think it's cheating, and we clearly can, because we have :)
  633. Holger jonasw: Yes, me too.
  634. Zash You break a MUST in 59 if you include both and the range is larger than one page
  635. Zash > first item [...] MUST be the item that immediately follows [...] in the <after/>
  636. Holger Kev: Well yes we can do ugly things, and I agree we have.
  637. intosi Zash: well spotted.
  638. jonasw Zash, only if you iterate backwards, or?
  639. Zash > last item in the page [...] MUST be the item that immediately preceeds [...]
  640. Ge0rG Zash: we can override a MUST with follow-up spec
  641. jonasw excellent
  642. Kev But doing before/after in 313 is possible. It's just going to get ugly specifying the same things twice.
  643. jonasw Ge0rG, but then clients need an implementation of RSM and one of MAM-RSM
  644. jonasw "just"
  645. Kev jonasw: They do anyway, in practical terms.
  646. Ge0rG jonasw: hm.
  647. jonasw Kev, do they?
  648. Holger jonasw: And servers.
  649. intosi RSM is very protocol specific anyway.
  650. Holger Kev: Why?
  651. Kev Sorry, not clients, servers. Clients don't.
  652. Holger Huh.
  653. jonasw I have an interface in mind which is completely agnostic to protocol which uses RSM by passing a function around.
  654. Zash jonasw: next?
  655. jonasw kinda
  656. jonasw where RSM would just be a building block to obtain an asynchronous iterator
  657. Zash jonasw: If I were building something today, I'd make it more like a file handle
  658. MattJ Requiring server-side state?
  659. jonasw and I’d like to keep it that way.
  660. jonasw server side state sounds awful
  661. intosi It is.
  662. MattJ It would be, yes
  663. jonasw (encode the state in an opaque base64 thing!)
  664. Zash MattJ: I have had the thought not limit ranges, and stash the iterator along with the current id, so one can resume from there :)
  665. Maranda and intosi, tbh why not just doing <before>uuid-that-was-after-then</before>...?
  666. intosi Cursors are not something you'd want to keep around for every query sent to your xmpp server :)
  667. Maranda intosi, that's what glitches
  668. Zash LRU cache or whatever
  669. Zash On the assumption that the client will likely ask for the next page right after the current, it might be worth it
  670. intosi Maranda: I don't understand your question, my head's only partially working.
  671. Maranda mine as well tbh lol, but <before/><after>uuid</after> sounds exactly like <before>uuid</before> in my head.
  672. intosi nope
  673. Zash Wat
  674. intosi <before/> is very specific: it's before EOF, which is something that doesn't have an UUID.
  675. intosi You can't specify before last uuid you know, because it will never return the last uuid you know, which may not even be the last uuid in the dataset in the first place.
  676. Maranda Hm ok.
  677. lovetox you try bend rsm to do what a simple query filter does a lot better
  678. lovetox if i can query MAM with end and start archive ids, and my result only contains whats in between
  679. lovetox i can use RSM to page forward backwards wahtever
  680. intosi That's exactly what RSM does.
  681. lovetox no
  682. intosi Yes
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  684. jonasw no :)
  685. jonasw well, kinda
  686. lovetox RSM pages inside a Result
  687. jonasw yeah
  688. Zash <{dataform}x><field name=sql><value>SELECT * FROM archive WHERE whatever<///>
  689. lovetox it does not filter a result
  690. jonasw Zash, good idea
  691. intosi Zash: expecting your protoxep before CoB :)
  692. lovetox the Result of the server is the book, and with RSM you switch to a page
  693. lovetox what you try to do is to rip site 1-3 out of the result with rsm
  694. lovetox and create a new book
  695. Kev No, it's really not.
  696. intosi RSM is specific for a protocol, and we're talking 313, which clearly defines the uses of RSM.
  697. Zash lovetox: Hmm, epub over xmpp!
  698. Holger The part lovetox explained is not specific.
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  700. Holger It's exactly the generic part specified in 0059.
  701. Holger If it's all specific then ditch 0059.
  702. Maranda ...
  703. Maranda well, until I understand clearly what to do with both and my brain doesn't kernel panic trying to I just think I'll throw an error.
  704. Zash Throw it all out, define the archive as a giant XML blob and do binary serialized xml delta transmission and reinvent wave?
  705. intosi We should've gone with IMAP from the start.
  706. Holger I really dislike how we keep bending/breaking our specs in other specs.
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  708. Zash Holger: Myeah. Consistency is nice.
  709. lovetox RSM does a simple thing, and it does it nice
  710. lovetox if you want to have more elaborate querys for mam, just define fields for it
  711. lovetox like start-id, end-id
  712. Kev lovetox: For queries, yes.
  713. Kev But for getting pages from results, RSM is good at that.
  714. Kev It's just a shame that dealing with before/after isn't well specified.
  715. lovetox maybe i dont get it, i request a query from MAM with start-id, end-id
  716. Zash Is there anything preventing us from clarifying that?
  717. lovetox what exactly would i need before and after in the RSM page query afterwards?
  718. Zash Given multiple implementations doing something, sometimes, with it
  719. intosi Zash: clarifying sounds like a good idea.
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  721. Holger Kev: It's not well-specified because it goes against the 0059 model. You can't take your result book and page forward from page 15 *and* backward from page 30 at the same time.
  722. Maranda jonasw, *ducks* actually if before and after are currently present I *already* throw an error.
  723. Holger Kev: Right now you specify a page and a direction. With your change, before/after are no longer directions but boundaries.
  724. Maranda huhu
  725. Maranda jonasw, both of 'em that is.
  726. Zash Presence or lack of <before/> sets the direction atm
  727. lovetox exactly, and boundaries you specify in the MAM query, and not in the paging mechanism afterwards
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  729. Zash So I think you can read it as <before>+<after> = backwards but stop at <after>
  730. Holger Kev: And you sound as if it was obvious that specifying both boundaries should set direction=before. This sounds is totally arbitrary to me.
  731. Holger Zash: Ugh.
  732. Maranda +1
  733. Zash Or does it explicitly say 'forward' if <after>?
  734. intosi Only before tells you anything about direction, IIRC.
  735. Kev We could ditch RSM from 313 completely and just go for something with the same semantics but different syntax, it just seems wrong to me.
  736. lovetox Oo
  737. Zash Oh please no
  738. Zash Isn't MAM done yet?
  739. Maranda Are we about to go back to archiving..? 😋😘 *troll intended*
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  743. lovetox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysf5o5xOGYE
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  816. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks once again for your editorial work today
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