Wednesday, March 07, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[16:08:32] <jonasw> {xep 155}
[16:08:32] <Bunneh> jonasw: Stanza Session Negotiation (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-01-20)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0155.html
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[16:23:24] <Zash> Are we devs going to drown in CFEs now?
[16:23:48] <peter> Yes, you are!
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[18:00:52] <jonasw> Zash, first the editors are going to drown in CFEs ;-)
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[18:12:17] <Ge0rG> Yay, I've got another change into XEP-0045! Two more and I've fixed it sufficiently to not need MIX any more! 🙌
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[18:15:17] <Kev> I'm not convinced :)
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[18:15:55] <Kev> Well, I guess if you switch it to work on bare JIDs, make occupancy persistent, synched with the user's server, and then add pubsub nodes you'd be most of the way there. You'd also have MIX.
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[18:16:44] <jonasw> Kev, MIX doesn’t really sync with the users server or does it?
[18:16:53] <jonasw> IIRC MIX does not handle s2s link downtimes
[18:16:54] <Kev> The state of which rooms you're in does.
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[18:22:11] <Ge0rG> jonasw: MIX contains strong words about ensuring consistency over s2s failures, but no hints for implementations on how to actually achieve that.
[18:22:24] <jonasw> something something s2s SM
[18:22:26] <Ge0rG> I'm really curious to see that play out in the wild.
[18:22:45] <Ge0rG> I've got popcorn and spectator seats.
[18:23:11] <Ge0rG> I might not even veto MIX in case it comes in fast enough
[18:23:14] <daniel> Ge0rG: that popcorn will be pretty stale by the time mix gets implemented
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[18:23:38] <Ge0rG> daniel: touché
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[18:28:04] <SamWhited> well played…
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[20:18:06] <lovetox> Servers MUST NOT include the <stanza-id/> element in messages addressed to JIDs that do not have permissions to access the archive, such as a users’s outgoing messages to their contacts. However servers SHOULD include the element as a child of the forwarded message when using Message Carbons (XEP-0280) [3]
[20:18:10] <lovetox> why is this a SHOULD?
[20:18:35] <lovetox> this makes the whole reason we have mam:2 useless
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[20:22:02] <moparisthebest> how do we go from "I made this strange but useful-to-me thing by tying 3 different proprietary silos together" to "I made this strange but useful-to-me thing with XMPP" ?
[20:22:07] <moparisthebest> https://www.twilio.com/blog/2018/03/iot-poop-button-python-twilio-aws.html
[20:22:23] <moparisthebest> is it that they don't know about XMPP or is it just shinier to use proprietary silos?
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[20:31:48] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it's because there are more people who know http than xmpp, and because xmpp just lacks the right abstraction layer for IoT
[20:31:55] <SamWhited> No, it's because it's infinitely easier to use proprietary silos that have good support and nice HTTP APIs.
[20:32:06] <SamWhited> (too late; what Ge0rG said)
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[20:33:42] <moparisthebest> all that looks way harder than how I'd probably do it, but meh
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[20:34:23] <fippo> all xmpp needs is lots of dev advocates who write about poop buttons...
[20:34:51] <Zash> how will the poop button developers get paid?
[20:35:15] <SamWhited> true story; fippo ++
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[20:35:43] <waqas> 💩
[20:36:12] <jonasw> Zash, shitty
[20:36:25] <waqas> 💸
[20:36:47] <moparisthebest> I've done similar things but I guess they just aren't fancy and I don't blog about them
[20:37:04] <waqas> I'm curious about how well emojis work in non-desktop XMPP clients
[20:37:13] <Zash> moparisthebest: Do things and talk about them.
[20:37:27] <jonasw> waqas, mobile you mean? pretty well
[20:37:31] <SamWhited> I'd think they would work better than on the desktop ones, no?
[20:37:35] <Link Mauve> waqas, in console it just works, if you have a recent enough glibc and a font.
[20:37:38] <moparisthebest> like when the amazon buttons came out, when you pushed it it sent out an ARP request, and I called sendxmpp
[20:37:41] <Zash> waqas: Better than on desktop probably
[20:37:47] <moparisthebest> but it's trivial, does that stuff require writing about?
[20:37:52] <SamWhited> On the more tightly controlled mobile system you presumably have nice built-in fonts for it and support in the application platform.
[20:38:12] <jonasw> need to figure out how to load my own font into QWebEngineView >.>
[20:38:27] <waqas> Zash: I was also thinking of CLI clients, do those actually show emojis well? I'd expect font issues
[20:38:49] <Link Mauve> waqas, yes.
[20:39:13] <SamWhited> moparisthebest: the problem with that statement is two fold: 1) it's probably not trivial for most people, 2) it's not about things being difficult, we don't need people to blog about difficult or complex things as much, we want to show that you can do things simply, so if it is actually trivial (or at least simple), blog away!
[20:39:22] <jonasw> waqas, https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/KmzOKUa0WA5-e_lLWT5Bx0s9lYxOaSOtqLcl1_tTv18.png
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[20:39:47] <SamWhited> Interesting, simple projects are what attract people who will spend a weekend doing it. If it's not trivial, most likely no one wants to waste too much time on it.
[20:39:52] <Zash> waqas: https://www.zash.se/upload/3sakjSXMvw0y.png
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[20:39:54] <Link Mauve> waqas, https://linkmauve.fr/files/wayland-screenshot-2018-03-07_21-39-01.png
[20:40:02] <Link Mauve> Ah, too late.
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[20:40:08] <moparisthebest> I have a blog, but my last blog post was about new blog software on april 24th 2013 lol
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[20:40:17] <Zash> Tho my screenshot has Ge0rGs plugin
[20:40:24] <moparisthebest> and the last one before that was a guest blog poster in 2006
[20:40:29] <moparisthebest> super active, in other words
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[20:41:15] <SamWhited> my terminal is not that fancy :( https://i.imgur.com/SF16kJf.png
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[20:44:49] <Ge0rG> fippo: what we need is a compelling abstraction layer with appropriate libraries. Something where you define your sensors and actors in a human readable way, eg. "button, two-state", "230V relais", and then those objects automatically log into your private server and you can define rules like "button DEADBEEF triggers relais FOOBAR"
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[20:46:41] <moparisthebest> that sounds like a tool you build using something like xmpp in the background
[20:46:57] <SamWhited> That seems a bit specific to IoT (I don't disagree, but I'd start with decent, well-documented libraries in a number of popular languages that hide the XMPP specifics from you as much as possible…)
[20:47:00] <moparisthebest> in general I'd say that's too much overhead and too restrictive
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[20:47:12] <moparisthebest> but it seems like what all these proprietary APIs do, so maybe it's what people want
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[20:49:14] <Ge0rG> fippo: what we need is a compelling abstraction layer with appropriate libraries. Something where you define your sensors and actors in a human readable way, eg. "button, two-state", "230V relais", and then those objects automatically log into your private server and you can define rules like "button DEADBEEF triggers relais FOOBAR"
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[20:52:46] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: yes, that's very specific to IoT, but it's something that we need to differentiate over MQTT, CoAP and other contenders
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[23:11:51] <lovetox> this call to experience
[23:12:01] <lovetox> should only people answer that implemented the xep fully?
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[23:12:38] <Zash> It's kinda like Last Calls
[23:13:13] <lovetox> or is it in general of interest what parts are used for which use case in clients?
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[23:15:07] <SamWhited> lovetox: why you didn't implement it or why you only partially did would be useful too.
[23:15:24] <SamWhited> use cases are great
[23:15:46] <lovetox> k thanks
[23:15:53] <Zash> If you feel that you can answer any of the questions then that's surely useful info.
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[23:38:18] <jjrh> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16536254 'Slack' turning off their irc and XMPP gateways :p
[23:39:14] <Zash> whu
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[23:48:16] <Link Mauve> Or how walled gardens first expose standard protocols to get the nerd crowds to root for them, and once they obtain some critical mass stop with that.
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[23:56:53] <ThurahT> who needs/use slack anyway...
[23:57:12] <ThurahT> matrix otoh is somewhat useful.
[23:57:22] <ThurahT> still <3 XMPP.
[23:58:10] <Link Mauve> ThurahT, a few millions of users, at least.
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[23:58:28] <waqas> The answer to "who needs/use slack" is a fairly large set of organizations :)
[23:58:33] <ThurahT> inconceivable!
[23:58:46] <Link Mauve> I’ve had to use it for a client.
[23:58:58] <Zash> waqas: You gon' have fun now?
[23:59:46] <waqas> My company uses it. There's quite a bit in the UX that I wish XMPP clients had.