Thursday, March 08, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:01:12] <Link Mauve> waqas, I haven’t used it in a long time, could you write those down somewhere?
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[00:04:11] <jjrh> XMPP could use a pretty webclient.
[00:05:55] <Zash> Pretty according to whom?
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[00:06:33] <Zash> But yeah. Do it. Hire UX engineers and graphics designers and a huge marketing department and do it! :)
[00:07:04] <jjrh> according to whatever the designers who make pretty but non functional UI's people love.
[00:07:51] <jjrh> converse.js is pretty good
[00:08:40] <jjrh> movim is pretty good but one would have to pull out all the other stuff so it's easy to just throw it up on a webserver
[00:08:58] <waqas> It's very much optimized for "communicate with the org". There's the basic MUC-like part. Room discovery+creation is much better than most other clients. Search is a big deal. Room history (reading it, and coming back to a room after being away for a while) works better than any XMPP client I've used so far. Multi-user private chats (temp MUCs?) are very easy and very actively used. File sharing (within a MUC or single user chat stream) is actively used. Threads are started to catch on, and leading to easier conversation in active rooms. Slack bots are cool (and there are many, tied to services that can be used without any ops overhead). The team overall finds things like "/giphy", emojis and custom emjois fun. We don't like the audio/video function, as it's always breaking for somebody. Nobody likes how heavy/slow the client is.
[00:09:10] <waqas> My off the cuff summary ^
[00:10:45] <mathieui> hah, they had to restart their irc server 3 times this evening to add the banner warning about the death of gateways
[00:11:12] <waqas> The price/user is basically irrelevant. It's under $10/user, and for an actual business that's just noise on the balance sheet. The ops free nature is attractive.
[00:13:13] <jjrh> Last time I used slack in the browser it had some serious performance issues
[00:13:54] <waqas> It's slow and bloated. I use it in the browser only, and don't use the "native" app.
[00:14:01] <mathieui> it still does, waqas addressed that already
[00:14:15] <Link Mauve> Thanks waqas.
[00:14:41] <Zash> But is it slow and bloated enough for the higher ups to care?
[00:14:45] <jjrh> There was something very wrong - like I would leave the window open for a day and come back and the browser had some to a halt - I started running it in firefox
[00:14:53] <Zash> (I assume not)
[00:14:55] <jjrh> *come to a halt
[00:15:36] <waqas> Zash: The lower-downs want it. Because it's as close to friction-free as I've seen anything get for various team chat scenarios.
[00:16:00] *peter agrees with waqas on all points
[00:16:19] <waqas> Slack in our org was not something that management mandated, it was something that people on the grounded tested out and wanted. I assume that's how it gained massive popularity.
[00:19:22] <jjrh> I think the main attraction to slack is it's easy to use and setup your own private space, and even though the client isn't amazing it's good enough and just a webpage. Easy way to onboard people.
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[00:19:53] <peter> Although I hate hate hate Slack threads.
[00:20:27] <jjrh> compared to slack I think for casual stuff discord got it way more right - send you a i
[00:20:43] <jjrh> *a 'invite' link - you don't need to give your email or anything, just enter your name
[00:20:56] <jjrh> then we can use voice chat, chat, etc.
[00:21:17] <Zash> jonasw: editor issue, are these CFE's meant to include the text about advancing to final?
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[00:22:40] <waqas> Note that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
[00:23:14] <jjrh> My friend was just complaining to me that conversations prompts which resource to send a file to.
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[00:23:44] <jjrh> I don't think I have ever sent a file over xmpp but isn't it a lot better now with http upload?
[00:24:02] <waqas> And we transitioned to slack over time, the engineering team was the last holdout, but eventually everyone gave in to the "ease of everything"
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[00:29:33] <jjrh> Just tried now with movim sending to this account. It was pretty painless. Went to my phone and gajim without issue :)
[00:31:13] <jjrh> oh weird - I tried to send a image from conversations to the movim account and it is prompting me to choose from 3 resources. I'm guessing this doesn't happen with http upload
[00:32:10] <Zash> No upload service available?
[00:32:46] <jjrh> yeah that's my guess. I don't think my server has http upload (we never send files over chat)
[00:34:27] <jjrh> oh weird hah I try and send it and my browser pops up with "is trying to call you"
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[00:35:34] <Zash> Well, it got Jingle payloads confused?
[00:36:07] <jjrh> I guess so?
[00:37:53] <jjrh> does http upload play nice with omemo or is it unencrypted?
[00:39:18] <Zash> HTTP upload doesn't really need to know what the bytes you stuff in it are
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[00:39:39] <Zash> Not sure how standardized the encryption methods in common user are
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[00:42:30] <jjrh> yeah looks like the file is encrypted then the key is exchanged over the secure session
[00:42:47] <jjrh> https://conversations.im/omemo/audit.pdf
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[03:38:53] <moparisthebest> > waqas: Note that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
[03:39:15] <moparisthebest> oh he left, but my work uses lync or now skype for business
[03:39:23] <moparisthebest> and file transfers essentially never work
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[06:31:18] <jonasw> Zash, pretty sure, yeah. that’s what a CFE is about
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[06:32:52] <jonasw> > Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen.

except Pidgin.
[06:33:08] <jonasw> >> 1. What software has XEP-0048 implemented?
> Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen.

except Pidgin.
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[06:55:44] <daniel> jonasw: pidgin doesn't have bookmarks?
[06:55:47] <daniel> Really
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[06:59:27] <jonasw> daniel, yeah
[06:59:34] <jonasw> MUCs are only in their local roster
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[07:23:20] <MattJ> jonasw, daniel: Pidgin does support it, but only in a plugin that's not enabled by default
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[07:28:10] <jonasw> MattJ, how’s that called? it doesn’t seem to be installed by default on debian
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[07:28:29] <jonasw> maybe in the "pidgin-plugin-pack"
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[07:30:07] <Ge0rG> I imagine pidgin-plugins-bad and pidgin-plugins-ugly, gstreamer style
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[07:30:13] <jonasw> hah
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[07:30:38] <jonasw> in case of pidgin it would rather be: pidgin-plugins-normal, pidgin-plugins-without-zerodays
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[07:30:53] <jonasw> (at least so I heard)
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[07:31:37] <jonasw> in the case of pidgin I’d also be worried what it’ll do to my already existing bookmarks when I turn the plugin on. on either side of the wire.
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[08:37:09] <Ge0rG> > In addition, the service SHOULD send an invitation to any user who has been added to the member list of a members-only room if the user is not currently affiliated with the room
Nice things you discover in 0045 by accident.
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[08:37:46] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm confused by what you said yesterday in the meeting. The muc_* features seem to actually be used as runtime configuration options, but the XEP only ever talks of them as being supported features
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[08:38:20] <Kev> Give me an hour to wake up, and then I can think about this
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[08:41:20] *Ge0rG starts timer
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[08:42:17] <Tobias> Ge0rG, here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyN-vvFIkE
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[08:42:47] <Ge0rG> Tobias: that's perfect!
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[08:49:32] <intosi> Great score while I wait for some integration tests to complete.
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[08:50:18] <Tobias> they also take exactly an hour?
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[08:53:29] <intosi> Sure feels like it.
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[09:01:56] <MattJ> jonasw, https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/6353 :/
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[09:16:30] <jonasw>

Opened 10 years ago

Last modified 4 years ago
[09:16:32] <jonasw> sweeeet
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[09:18:58] <Kev> Ge0rG: As far as I can see, the 'features' are done as http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something, while current room configuration is done as muc_something.
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[09:20:25] <jonasw> Kev, Example 9
[09:20:41] <jonasw> (in § 6.4 Querying for Room Information)
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[09:21:15] <Ge0rG> Kev: while I agree from reading the examples, this is not really answering my question.
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[09:21:26] <Kev> What was the question, then? :)
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[09:22:46] <Ge0rG> Kev: besides, there are no *features* with http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something in the XEP, nor in any other XEPs.
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[09:24:11] <Ge0rG> Kev: my question is, how you came to the conclusion that http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something are features and muc_something are runtime options.
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[09:25:33] <Ge0rG> So far the only supporting document I found is: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0307.html#support
> If a MUC service supports the protocol specified herein, it MUST advertise that fact by returning a feature of "http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#unique" in response to Service Discovery (XEP-0030)
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[09:25:36] <Kev> Just that the first three http... features are 'Support for...', wile the others are descriptive.
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[09:25:59] <Kev> But happy to be wrong, just push it as-is.
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[09:27:11] <Ge0rG> Kev: oh, I feel like I'm in a position to actually improve 0045 now, I won't abuse my powers to do a half-assed job.
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[09:32:48] <Ge0rG> > Support for reflecting the original message 'id' in 'groupchat' messages.
Sounds kind of weird. I'll leave the original wording.
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[09:40:33] <Ge0rG> Kev: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600/commits/b017284eea20070b7982d6fb58fe6c68c8c6dc54
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[09:41:04] <Kev> Ta. I'm more comfortable with this, whether I should be or not.
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[09:55:35] <Ge0rG> Do we have all council votes together then?
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[09:58:16] <Kev> Think so.
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[10:04:35] <Ge0rG> From the MUC logs, I haven't explicitly voted on that one.
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[10:05:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you can merge https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600 now, thanks :)
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[10:18:14] <jonasw> Ge0rG, there you go
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[10:18:47] <Ge0rG> > Pull request successfully merged and closed
👏
[10:19:03] <jonasw> where did my mail about xep-0020 go though
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[10:19:48] <Ge0rG> I see one titled [Standards] DEPRECATED: XEP-0020 (Feature Negotiation)
[10:19:49] <jonasw> ah, just took a while
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[10:20:07] <jonasw> (weirdly, it appeared several minutes after the UPDATED: XEP-0153 one)
[10:20:15] <jonasw> maybe funny lag between the mailservers :)
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[11:05:43] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Konstantin noted that "Deprecating is not a serious problem" for XEP-0071 and that got me thinking - didn't Council vote to Deprecate, not Obsolete? Or am I misremembering?
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[11:10:26] <jonasw> huh
[11:10:29] <jonasw> you are indeed right
[11:10:37] <jonasw> that’s my fault, I’m going to rectify this immediately
[11:10:57] <jonasw> well, editors fault at least
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[11:13:09] <goffi> The references to XHTML-IM in other XEPs should be removed, I know there is at least one in XEP-0277
[11:14:45] <goffi> (and anyway current implementations i.e. Movim and SàT, use full XHTML)
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[11:17:22] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Thanks.
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[11:19:11] <jonasw> this is a busy day for the xeps repository :)
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[11:23:26] <goffi> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16539857 (slack is closing XMPP gateway, which was shitty anyway)
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[11:23:53] <waqas> goffi: Can you comment on how bad the gateway was?
[11:24:36] <goffi> waqas: it's really basic, not implemeting any advanced feature, it's hard to join or discover rooms.
[11:26:37] <waqas> goffi: How does it handle multi-user PMs? Temp MUC invites? And what about threads?
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[11:36:37] <goffi> waqas: you have MUC room named from pseudos, something like mpdm-[nick_1]--[nick_2]--[nick_3]--[your_nick]@your_company.xmpp.slack.com
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[11:38:10] <goffi> waqas: to give you an idea, here is the disco of the server:
[11:38:18] <goffi> http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info
http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items
jabber:iq:last
jabber:iq:privacy
jabber:iq:version
urn:xmpp:ping
vcard-temp

[11:38:42] <Ge0rG> Somebody should write a proper bridge now.
[11:38:46] <waqas> I'm mainly surprised at jabber:iq:privacy
[11:39:33] <goffi> Ge0rG: I think there was one for libpurple, but unmaintained
[11:40:27] <Ge0rG> So spectrum again. That software stack provides me with nightmares
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[11:44:32] <Ge0rG> > I sooooo regret even having the IRC gateway.
Slack CEO https://twitter.com/stewart/status/817483176687718400
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[11:44:47] <Ge0rG> The thread is awesome
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[11:46:49] <Ge0rG> Handicapped users will appreciate that slack "is working on" accessibility.
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[11:53:00] <Link Mauve> jonasw, “Note that I intend to overhaul XEP-0394 and I don’t know any implementations.” about Message Markup, well, slixmpp has had one since day one. ^^'
[11:53:24] <jonasw> is that used in a client?
[11:53:44] <Link Mauve> I think poezio will use it if there is no XHTML-IM alongside.
[11:53:50] <jonasw> I see
[11:53:51] <Link Mauve> Otherwise it will prefer XHTML-IM.
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[11:55:48] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: what does "alongside" mean?
[11:55:51] <Ge0rG> On the receiving end?
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[11:59:09] <Link Mauve> Yes.
[11:59:15] <Link Mauve> On the displaying end, more specifically.
[11:59:36] <Ge0rG> Ah, so it's not sending it.
[11:59:40] <Link Mauve> Nope.
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[11:59:53] <Ge0rG> What about displaying *Styling* instead of ~markup~?
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[12:00:14] <Link Mauve> I couldn’t find a good way to mangle our composing format into either of these new XEPs yet.
[12:00:38] <Link Mauve> They are way too poor to express this format.
[12:01:02] <Ge0rG> The good thing about Styling is that you don't need to mangle anything, you can just live-apply the styling to the input box
[12:01:42] <Link Mauve> That means changing our input format for something that can’t be disabled.
[12:01:59] <Link Mauve> Currently all styling we have is opt-in by using keybinds.
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[12:02:44] <Link Mauve> I can write *stars and bold stars*, and these aren’t coupled in any way.
[12:02:50] <Link Mauve> With styling you can’t disable that.
[12:03:12] <Link Mauve> If you want to put the emphasis on a specific word without displaying the stars around, for instance.
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[12:04:40] <Link Mauve> But people have been listing these issues for a long time on the mailing list and here, yet people didn’t care in any way about them, so I don’t think I have much else to add.
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[12:07:08] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I'm aware of the arguments, and I even used to be a proponent of the explicit approach before I tested Styling. It's an easy and compelling way to markup things, and it even works over IRC transports!
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[12:07:32] <Link Mauve> XHTML-IM also works over IRC transports. ^^'
[12:08:11] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: I'd like to hear your definition of "work" bent sufficiently to support your statement.
[12:08:20] <jonasw> Ge0rG, biboumi converts XHTML-IM to actual IRC markup
[12:08:25] <jonasw> and vice versa
[12:08:34] <jonasw> there’s no bending there
[12:08:37] <jonasw> it’s actually done, including colors
[12:08:39] <jonasw> it’s insane
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[12:08:46] <jonasw> (and incredibly cool)
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[12:08:55] <Link Mauve> IRC has approximately the same limitations as a console client, it can only change boldness, italics, invert and colours, but it works quite well for those parts.
[12:09:00] <Ge0rG> I agree with that statement
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[12:10:46] <Link Mauve> So I don’t buy the argument that biboumi should convert my ~~words or **words into IRC colours, that’s removing formatting fun and adding complexity when the recipient doesn’t see what you wanted to send.
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[12:11:40] <Ge0rG> I was rather thinking about clients that already support ** and __
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[12:12:55] <Link Mauve> And those that will have to be changed because they assigned another meaning to them before.
[12:13:12] <Link Mauve> Further increasing confusion.
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[12:16:41] <mathieui> jonasw, I though biboumi only did one-way converting?
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[12:18:12] <jonasw> mathieui, hm, dunno; I have seen coloured things already.
[12:18:17] <jonasw> I think at least.
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[12:18:53] <mathieui> yeah, from IRC it works but I don’t think the xhtml-im → IRC is even implemented
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[13:46:15] <pep.> Reading the xhtml-im deprecation thread, I realized that people are not even aware of 0001. Changing Draft to something else wasn't bad but probably not enough
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[14:12:32] <moparisthebest> pep., until someone invents a device that can slap another person over the internet what else can be done?
[14:12:42] <moparisthebest> (I *really* want one of those devices)
[14:12:53] <jonasw> "stab someone into the face over standard tcp/ip"
[14:13:06] <pep.> moparisthebest the (in)famous slapper
[14:13:44] <moparisthebest> well it'd need to bypass firewalls and NAT so I'd vote over HTTPS :P
[14:13:48] <jonasw> pep., tbf, I wasn’t aware of 0001 until I started authoring XEPs either
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[14:13:56] <Maranda> 👨‍💻🖐️🤚👊
[14:14:08] <jonasw> /kickban moparisthebest stop making people sad :(
[14:15:08] <pep.> jonasw, sure, same for me, it took a while
[14:15:10] <moparisthebest> see jonasw , you could have used the slapping device on me right then...
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[14:15:22] <jonasw> s/slapping/stabbing/ pls
[14:15:27] <jonasw> need to be more rigorous here ;-)
[14:15:35] <pep.> jonasw, we're not criminals
[14:15:52] <pep.> Or I'm out!
[14:16:02] <jonasw> ohkay ohkay
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[14:18:22] <Maranda> pep. lies.
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[14:25:37] <nyco> board meeting in 5?
[14:25:42] <SaltyBones> Ge0rG, you'll love this: http://friedberger-nachhilfe.de/ a website that requires you to fill out a captcha to VIEW it :)
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[14:26:32] <Ge0rG> SaltyBones: wfm
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[14:27:22] <Dave Cridland> pep., FWIW, the website portal for the XEPs (ie, https://xmpp.org/extensions/) could probably use a link to it, even though it's the first one listed.
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[14:29:05] <Dave Cridland> Also it says you can show/hide the various *types* of XEP, when it then shows Statuses.
[14:29:10] <moparisthebest> SaltyBones, that's what cloudflare does as a company
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[14:29:47] <Dave Cridland> SaltyBones, You're using Tor, I assume?
[14:30:14] <Dave Cridland> nyco, Also, yes. Although I was distracting Guus, so I may have made him late.
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[14:30:43] <nyco> it's now
[14:30:53] <Guus> I'm here.
[14:31:52] <Guus> Martin excused himself
[14:31:58] <Guus> Ralphm, MattJ?
[14:32:07] <nyco> Matthew and Ralph are around
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[14:32:21] <MattJ> Here
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[14:33:50] <Guus> nyco, did you talk to Ralph just now, or were you only observing that he's in this MUC?
[14:33:57] <nyco> talked
[14:33:59] <nyco> 5 min ago
[14:34:11] <nyco> oops, no
[14:34:23] <Guus> that was me
[14:34:29] <Guus> the other handsome Dutch guy :)
[14:34:55] <nyco> let's still start? and end on time?
[14:34:59] <Guus> agreed
[14:35:06] <nyco> https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
[14:35:09] <Guus> Do you want to take this one?
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[14:35:23] <SaltyBones> moparisthebest, Dave Cridland no, without Tor! Indeed it's not funny otherwise. :p
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[14:36:02] *Guus bangs a gavel
[14:36:10] <Guus> 1. Role Call and agenda
[14:36:20] <Guus> We've established who's here. Anything else for the agenda?
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[14:36:36] <nyco> none from me
[14:36:49] <MattJ> Nor me
[14:36:59] <Guus> 2. Confirm minute taker
[14:37:06] <Guus> Who would be so kind?
[14:37:45] <Guus> >awkward silence<
[14:37:52] <Guus> I'll type them based on the logs then
[14:37:58] <nyco> thx
[14:38:04] <Guus> 3. Topics for decision
[14:38:10] <Guus> 3.1: Board Priorities 2018
[14:38:17] <Guus> we're holding off for that meeting, right?
[14:38:22] <nyco> yep
[14:38:29] <nyco> still waiting for answers
[14:38:35] <nyco> regarding preferred dates and times
[14:38:36] <Guus> nyco is working on that, I think, given that you asked me about availability earlier
[14:38:44] <nyco> correct
[14:38:55] <Guus> anything we can add to that here and now?
[14:39:04] <nyco> probably in two weeks, afaik
[14:39:20] <Guus> ok, thanks
[14:39:31] <Guus> 3.2: Bus factor / bank account
[14:39:39] <nyco> apart from availabilities, if you got to push something regarding the organisation, feel free
[14:40:24] <Guus> As promised last week, I've reached out to Peter for an update, But have not heard back yet. I'll prod again.
[14:40:44] <Guus> (nyco, re prio meeting - I don't but I'll include that invitation in the minutes for others)
[14:41:09] <Guus> 4. Reviewing commitment list
[14:41:15] <Guus> we've covered the prio meeting
[14:41:36] <Guus> Ralph expressed earlier that he wants to hold off the ED replacement search until after the prio meeting
[14:41:47] <MattJ> wfm
[14:42:04] <nyco> do we have to wait?
[14:42:37] <MattJ> No, but I think we'd prefer to
[14:42:52] <Guus> nyco, I'm not sure if we _have_ to. I'm still unsure exactly what entails that role - which might tie into the prio meeting.
[14:42:57] <MattJ> Part of the problem is that we can't find people for the role until we can exactly define what the role is :)
[14:43:24] <nyco> got it
[14:43:33] <Guus> the third card, adding commits - I think we'll cover that in that meeting too. Nothing much to do there now, I think?
[14:44:26] <nyco> agree
[14:44:31] <nyco> archive?
[14:44:43] <Guus> maybe put in a different lane for prio meeting?
[14:44:55] <nyco> sure
[14:44:58] <Guus> or just leave it for now, meh. I don't have a strong preference.
[14:45:15] <Guus> Last card, drafting a membership survey - Mattj, did you get around to prepare something?
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[14:46:44] <MattJ> I didn't yet, sorry
[14:47:00] <nyco> if you need help, please ask
[14:47:15] <Guus> Can I tempt you for an ETA? :)
[14:47:23] <MattJ> Next week? :)
[14:47:27] <Guus> awesome :)
[14:47:37] <nyco> it's not that I'm good at it, I'd rather have someone really competent to do it, but I have a few insights that I'd to have confirmed/invalidated
[14:47:44] <nyco> +1W
[14:48:24] <Guus> nyco, you did the last one, didn't you? That gave good results.
[14:48:27] <MattJ> nyco, I'm not claiming to be especially competent at it... if you have some ideas, feel free to share, or take it on yourself
[14:48:34] <MattJ> I just feel it should be done
[14:49:24] <nyco> ok then I'll push you the few questions/doubts I have, you do what you do of them, ok?
[14:49:28] <Guus> Perhaps you guys discuss this between the two of you, out of band?
[14:49:31] <nyco> ok
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[14:50:01] <MattJ> wfm
[14:50:04] <Guus> 5. Items for discussion
[14:50:14] <Guus> 5.1 Fundraising and financing
[14:50:41] <nyco> if we do that conference, we may be able to generate some money?
[14:50:48] <Guus> I'd actually would like us to look at that in more detail, but perhaps that should be prepared for better.
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[14:51:15] <nyco> can be a board prio, btw
[14:51:34] <nyco> this may mean we'll discuss that during the prio meeting
[14:51:36] <Guus> I think addressing the money issue is something that we're responsible for anyway, wether or not it's a prio.
[14:51:57] <nyco> totally
[14:52:00] <Guus> I think it might be good to not heap to much on that already very broad meeting.
[14:52:07] <nyco> makes sense
[14:52:37] <Guus> Let me prepare for specific financial / fund-related talking points for next meeting - unless someone wants to add something now.
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[14:53:29] <Guus> I'll take that as an 'ok'
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[14:53:42] <Guus> 6. AOB
[14:53:45] <Guus> anyone?
[14:53:50] <nyco> nope
[14:54:08] <MattJ> None here
[14:54:23] <Guus> from the floor perhaps?
[14:55:07] <Guus> 7. Time / date of next
[14:55:13] <Guus> I'll be unavailable next week
[14:55:17] <nyco> +1W
[14:55:23] <MattJ> Next week works for me
[14:55:29] <Guus> but if you guys are available, I'm ok to skip one.
[14:55:47] <Guus> ok, two out of four will be there. It's likely that you'll get at least one more, I think
[14:55:50] <nyco> Ralph and Marint may like to join
[14:55:51] <MattJ> I think we should continue unless others also indicate they can't make it
[14:55:51] <Guus> lets do +1W
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[14:56:06] <Guus> we are in agreement
[14:56:10] *Guus bangs gavel
[14:56:13] <nyco> thx MattJ and Guus! ;-)
[14:56:17] <Guus> thank you guys
[14:56:22] <MattJ> Thanks Guus
[14:56:56] <Syndace> Sorry I didn't see there was official stuff going on at first and didn't want to interrupt (isn't this the wrong MUC?).

Anways what I wanted to tell you: OH MY GOD I just successfully signed and verified messages using my XEdDSA python implementation! Prepare for a new OMEMO lib guys :)
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[14:57:41] <MattJ> Syndace, great news :)
[14:57:48] <nyco> no pb Syndace
[14:57:51] <Guus> \o/
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[14:58:08] <MattJ> I'd say that's relevant to this MUC, it's on average used for official meetings for 30 minutes every week
[14:58:12] <nyco> oh memo!
[14:59:10] <Guus> 24 this week, we were being efficient ;)
[15:00:01] <vanitasvitae> Syndace, wow nice!
[15:01:06] <vanitasvitae> It would be interesting to make java port at some point, to create smack-omemo-syndace 😀
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[15:05:52] <Syndace> Haha thanks guys! 😁
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[15:12:25] <goffi> Syndace: great, any idea when we could test a public repos ?
[15:12:58] <jonasw> Syndace, amazing!
[15:13:00] <jonasw> congrats
[15:14:35] <Syndace> Well most of it is already prepared and I just need to switch the flag from private to public on GitHub. I hope it'll be a thing of one or two weeks (but I tend to underestimate developement time :D )
[15:14:59] <jonasw> why don’t you switch it to public right now?
[15:15:06] <jonasw> tack a huge "UNAUDITED CODE" warning on it and go for it
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[15:15:16] <goffi> Syndace: will Python 2 be supported ?
[15:15:22] <jonasw> I hope not.
[15:15:32] <jonasw> python 2 won’t be supported at all anymore in 2 years time
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[15:16:15] <Syndace> jonasw, I thought about this but I really want it at least to work before I make it public
[15:16:18] <goffi> jonasw: yes I know
[15:16:28] <jonasw> Syndace, I thought it does now?
[15:16:36] <jonasw> otherwise it makes sense :)
[15:16:43] <Syndace> Yeah Python 2 is supported (actually I don't know whether Python 3 is supported)
[15:16:53] <jonasw> aand I lost interest.
[15:16:56] <jonasw> ;)
[15:17:06] <Syndace> The last piece is working but not integrated yet
[15:17:37] <jonasw> seriously though: python2 is going to die soon-ish. if there are issues with py3, I’ll be happy to help out
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[15:18:16] <goffi> jonasw: not all software have switched yet, so python 2 support is good news for now
[15:18:55] <goffi> Syndace: for me Python 2 support is interesting only for a couple of months (until I fully switch to Python 3), but the support is really good news as it means I can start implementation quickly.
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[15:20:18] <Syndace> Good to hear. When I started working with Python about two years ago I was forced to use Python 2 because one of our dependencies did not support version 3 and I kind of stuck to it. I know of most of the differences though and I think I wrote the code to work in both versions equally.
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[15:25:40] <jonasw> Syndace, tip: set up travis CI (or another CI) tests for each version you’d like to support
[15:25:50] <jonasw> it’s actually quite trivial to do with github
[15:26:52] <goffi> Syndace: I was also stuck by dependency (Twisted), but the port is done now.
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[15:50:41] <Zash> Re billion laughs, https://modules.prosody.im/mod_conformance_restricted.html
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[15:51:17] <jonasw> still need to figure out how to integrate that in my test suite.
[15:51:39] <jonasw> > Send “PI”, “comment”, “DTD” or “entity” to xmpp:example.com/conformance, while directly connected to the Prosody instance.
[15:51:43] <jonasw> as <body/> in a <message/>?
[15:51:50] <Zash> Yes
[15:52:17] <moparisthebest> jonasw, is python 2 going to die soonish though?
[15:52:27] <moparisthebest> because it seems like 2 and 3 will live on all computers forever at this point
[15:52:40] <jonasw> moparisthebest, once upstream support is done, I’ll start to bug every project still using it.
[15:52:45] <moparisthebest> python 3 is like MIX except there are actual users
[15:54:49] <jjrh> I wish distros would stop encouraging pidgin (aka not installing it by default) because pidgin - least last time I used it - was really really bad for XMPP
[15:55:14] <jjrh> all the "why does this happen???" xmpp issues were resolved when I switched to gajim
[15:55:35] <Zash> Jack of all trades
[15:56:02] <jjrh> But what does it actually do besides XMPP and IRC?
[15:56:10] <jonasw> Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
[15:56:16] <Zash> They don't ship Pidgin for its XMPP capabilities
[15:56:21] <jonasw> jjrh, ICQ, Facebook(?), …
[15:56:37] <jjrh> Does anyone actually use ICQ anymore? Facebook is broken for sure.
[15:56:48] <jonasw> dunno
[15:57:04] <jjrh> like don't get me wrong 10 years ago gaim was great
[15:58:09] <jjrh> but these days everything is mostly "use a browser and be lucky if it even sorta works with a native client"
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[15:58:58] <jjrh> Like I used to use bitlbee for facebook chat for a long time but eventually it stopped working and a whole bunch of features like group chats didn't work so I gave up and just open messenger.com
[15:58:59] <moparisthebest> do non-tech people even use desktops/laptops anymore?
[15:59:15] <moparisthebest> my mom and wife haven't used one in years at this point
[15:59:30] <jonasw> (I sure hope those are distinct people)
[15:59:32] <moparisthebest> they just do everything on their phones
[15:59:39] <moparisthebest> haha yes jonasw
[15:59:40] <jonasw> ah yeah, plural
[15:59:50] <jonasw> the first four words are not unambiguous
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[16:00:39] <jjrh> Well I have been trying to convince folks at my work to use gajim instead of pidgin - it's slow going.
[16:01:24] <jjrh> one person is all "it doesn't have IRC so I don't want it" Like comeon - IRC in pidgin really really sucks.... just use xchat if you want a gui
[16:01:39] <jonasw> jjrh, deploy a biboumi
[16:01:46] <jonasw> amazing IRC<->XMPP gateway
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[16:02:30] <jjrh> How does that work? is it just a irc bouncer?
[16:02:35] *Ge0rG is a long-time hard-core XMPP user and is almost happy with biboumi
[16:02:49] <Ge0rG> jjrh: it allows you to use all your xmpp clients on IRC, at the same time
[16:02:55] <jonasw> jjrh, https://biboumi.louiz.org/
[16:03:00] <jonasw> it maps IRC to MUCs
[16:03:04] <jonasw> pretty great
[16:03:38] <jjrh> Yeah so it's just a bouncer - neat.
[16:04:12] <jjrh> How does it work for the authentication? You configure that all through your XMPP client or do you need to configure the biboumi gateway?
[16:04:50] <moparisthebest> you configure it through ad-hock commands, so you need like gajim
[16:04:55] <jonasw> jjrh, yeah, ad-hoc commands.
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[16:05:01] <moparisthebest> wow extra k where did that come from
[16:05:15] <jjrh> Ah cool. So what is it SASL? works.
[16:05:17] <moparisthebest> but once configured, it works great with conversations and such too
[16:05:47] <jonasw> it doesn’t do SASL AFAIK
[16:06:00] <jonasw> but you can add a PRIVMSG to nickserv on startup if that helps.
[16:06:29] <jonasw> https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3103#note_516
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[16:06:42] <jonasw> https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3103#note_941
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[16:07:37] <jjrh> yeah the main one is having freenode work
[16:08:01] <jjrh> (freenode should just run a xmpp gateway! )
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[16:16:29] <moparisthebest> most IRC servers, I think freenode too, just lets you send your nickserv password as the server password
[16:18:55] <jjrh> yeah so it's not the end of the world.
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[16:20:41] <jjrh> I think i'll give it a go - would make one aspect of my life a little easier. Tunneling the weechat remote over ssh on my phone is not great.
[16:20:56] <jonasw> oh yes
[16:21:06] <jonasw> just make sure you don’t allow remotes to (ab-)use your biboumi
[16:21:55] <jjrh> Yeah I can see spammers going to down with that :P
[16:22:14] <jjrh> *town
[16:23:15] <jjrh> I started reading xep-0369 - has anyone implemented it yet?
[16:23:55] <moparisthebest> iirc there is 1 proprietary server implementation and 1 open source almost-implementation
[16:24:05] <moparisthebest> but no it's basically vapourware
[16:24:09] <jjrh> I guess SWIFT client has support
[16:24:49] <jjrh> I see a request on prosody - whats the open source server implementation? ejabberd?
[16:25:29] <moparisthebest> it tries to solve every use-case on the planet, far too complicated if you just want good multi-user chat, in my opinion of course
[16:25:43] <moparisthebest> I want to say openfire...
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[16:27:06] <jjrh> haven't finished reading the spec yet but I'll agree it is rather complicated. It however gets much much closer to being like 'slack' where you're a 'member' of a room but not necessarily active.
[16:28:33] <jonasw> IMO MIX is rather sane by now, feature-set wise
[16:28:43] <jonasw> it solves some nastiness of MUC
[16:28:47] <jonasw> (speaking as a client developer)
[16:28:54] <moparisthebest> there are other things to do this https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
[16:29:02] <jonasw> my main issue with it is that it integrates weirdly with the roster.
[16:29:04] <moparisthebest> I have no comment as to whether they are better/worse than MIX
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[16:29:18] <jjrh> That functionality would be useful for certain types of deployments - aka a company XMPP server where new users get automatically setup with all the varying rooms - so they /see/ what's there not necessarily actively participating.
[16:29:18] <jonasw> don’t link things in /inbox/ as "there *are* other things"
[16:29:32] <moparisthebest> it is a thing isn't it jonasw ? :P
[16:29:38] <jonasw> depends
[16:29:49] <jonasw> jjrh, you can do that with autojoin-bookmarks (many clients will follow them) for MUC too
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[16:30:18] <jonasw> MIX mainly has the advantage that an *account* is joined and not an individual client. this makes things simpler because it takes the load off the client regarding keeping state in sync.
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[16:31:00] <jjrh> Yep, but you still will get the "Someone has mentioned your name" pop up
[16:31:23] <jonasw> yeah, that’s true for both MIX and MUC?
[16:31:39] <jjrh> Don't you need to be /in/ the room with a client for MUC?
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[16:31:50] <jjrh> not just bookmarked
[16:32:10] <jonasw> you need to
[16:32:15] <jonasw> but most clients will follow autojoin-bookmarks
[16:32:33] <jonasw> so if you put them in their account on sign up, they will be joined right away
[16:32:36] <jonasw> pidgin will of course not, because pidgin is stupid
[16:32:54] <jjrh> Right but if I close the window i'm sol
[16:33:02] <jonasw> I don’t know what "sol" means
[16:33:06] <jjrh> shit out of luck
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[16:33:17] <jonasw> but if you close the window and your client takes that as "leave this chat" it might very well make you leave from the MIX.
[16:33:21] <jonasw> that’s not a protocol issue
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[16:36:33] <jjrh> I read this idea as I have jonasw as a member of xsf - with the theory that I should be able to signal your attention to that room without your client actively listening / receiving all the junk going on. You may also want your phone to only have the alerts / important information open and not all the other channels you participate in - but you still want to be queried on your phone when someone says "jonasw did you forget we have a meeting today?" in xsf
[16:37:04] <ralphm> Guus, others, apologies, I need to play taxi unexpectedly
[16:37:10] <ralphm> Guus, others, apologies, I needed to play taxi unexpectedly
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[16:38:23] <jonasw> jjrh, the client will always receive all messages from a MIX room your account is joined to
[16:38:33] <jonasw> independent on whether you are mentioned or whatnot
[16:39:47] <jjrh> I thought the whole idea of keeping you as a 'member' of a room was for situations where you might not want your phone sitting in a really busy support channel because it eats up a lot of data but on your desktop client you don't care
[16:39:55] <jonasw> no
[16:40:15] <jonasw> the idea is that you don’t get removed from a room just because right now none of your clients is online
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[16:44:25] <jjrh> Ah. That would be a neat feature to have - having your phone only subscribe to the pubsub node and when you say my name or 'signal' me somehow from the context of the chat room my client would alert me i'm needed. Also be a handy feature for things like I want to get important notifications about prosody - and may want to weigh in - but the majority of the time not looking at that window. Stuff like a broadcast that there is a majority vulnerability and you should upgrade asap, or a new version release.
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[16:44:44] <jonasw> there is no pubsub node which does that
[16:45:05] <jonasw> (in MIX)
[16:45:16] <jonasw> of course, using pubsub nodes for such announcements would be an interesting, but also totally separate concept.
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[16:48:50] <jjrh> In the little free time I have at the moment i'm trying to get to the point of understanding the gajim codebase enough to implement better pubsub support to do stuff like alerts/notifications. Instead of having a MUC bot dump git commits that would be a pubsub node - and ideally sub nodes for different branches, so I can subscribe to say a feature branch that interests me or conflicts with my work. (but majority of people aren't concerned with that)
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[16:49:22] <jonasw> there is subscribe-options which could do that -- if you’re running a specialized pubsub-service
[16:49:30] <moparisthebest> kind of like a mailing list type thing?
[16:49:31] <jonasw> which should be trivial to do; a pubsub service can be run on a resource IIRC
[16:49:33] <moparisthebest> could be interesting
[16:50:00] <jonasw> I need to implement a skeleton for a pubsub service in aioxmpp, so that I can deploy bots which act as pubsub services.
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[16:54:49] <jjrh> My thought is more instead of getting my inbox spammed with nagios alerts I would get pubsub notifications. Ideally doing something smart like having different nodes for various servers. I got the idea from moparisthebest 's sendmail xmpp thingy - have a email account you add to receive alerts to and a bot thingy that converts the emails to xmpp pubsub nodes or msg/muc. Everything already supports email so the overhead to support this is just adding another email to receive the notification.
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[16:55:52] <jjrh> I did something sorta like this for email alerts to SIP SIMPLE.
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[16:56:30] <moparisthebest> that would be interesting for mailing lists like all the xsf ones
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[16:58:00] <jjrh> Yep. Just about everything supports at least email so you're not writting a plugin for all the different platforms.
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[17:02:34] <moparisthebest> 'mailing lists in xmpp' seems to be something that someone else would have thought of and implemented already
[17:02:42] <moparisthebest> I wonder if there isn't already a XEP
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[17:03:40] <jjrh> The thing is I haven't found any clients that really have good pubsub support
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[17:04:16] <Kev> What does "Really good pubsub support" mean in a client?
[17:04:26] <Kev> Pubsub is used in the context of things, rather than as a thing on its own.
[17:04:41] <jonasw> Kev, I think actually just subscribing to a node and receiving messages from it.
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[17:05:31] <jjrh> I would see - for this case - a window that I can browse. Like movim does
[17:06:28] <jjrh> Sorta like a RSS reader I guess
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[17:06:54] <Kev> Neither of those sound like a generic client thing to me.
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[17:07:11] <Kev> You subscribe to the node in the context of something specific (e.g. Swift will soon support subscribing to FDP nodes)
[17:07:14] <MattJ> What is a generic client? :)
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[17:07:30] <Kev> A think a client should generically support.
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[17:07:54] <MattJ> I think IM client would be how I'd describe what you're describing
[17:08:29] <MattJ> Since an XMPP pubsub feed reader is also a client (yes, I'm being picky, but just trying to clarify the conversation)
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[17:09:37] <Kev> Fair.
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[17:18:21] <jjrh> https://i.imgur.com/BU0T7s3.jpg
[17:19:06] <jjrh> something like that - a window that lets you navigate the hierarchy and new nodes would obviously ping you.
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[17:21:56] <moparisthebest> jjrh, but is it like a mailing list, can you reply to specific nodes :)
[17:22:11] <Ge0rG> > For example we may rename XEP-0393 to "Markdown"
That made my day.
[17:22:14] <moparisthebest> I really like it either way
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[17:23:16] <jjrh> Not sure - it's just the idea I have in my head. Just being able to view this stuff more easily in a client would be useful.
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[17:24:08] <Ge0rG> > Also if we'd do that, we'd have "Message Markup" and "Message Markdown"...
Where can I vote on that? 🤣
[17:24:08] <moparisthebest> jjrh, I'm not a UI guy at all, that seems great for desktop, but how would it look in mobile?
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[17:26:46] <jjrh> Not a UI guy either - so no clue, I would probably look at how email mobile apps do threading
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[17:27:59] <Yagiza> moparisthebest, as for XEP-0393, I'm sure its implementation will be awful both on desktop and mobile.
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[17:29:16] <jjrh> but probably something like showing the top level stuff, then you click 'security' and then it shows all the sub nodes for that and so on. For new alerts you would just get a notification showing you what it is (kinda like a new email notification - you get the first 15 words or whatever in the notification)
[17:29:17] <moparisthebest> Yagiza, do you mean https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html ? 393 is the styling one and it's already great everywhere :)
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[17:29:41] <Yagiza> moparisthebest, I'm sure not so great.
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[17:30:56] <Yagiza> moparisthebest, XEP-0369 is interesting but seems somewhat complicated, so needs further investigations.
[17:31:50] <moparisthebest> Yagiza, gajim and most other desktop clients, including IRC and email implemented basically 393 before it existed, conversations implemented it immediatly
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[17:31:56] <moparisthebest> I don't see the problem at all
[17:32:18] <jjrh> I'll probably initially - specifically for email alerts - just dump them to a MUC channel (or private msg) which will work with every XMPP client. This would work /today/ with all the XMPP clients. (the main users I have in mind are on a proprietary client)
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[17:34:15] <jjrh> kinda stole your sendmail idea moparisthebest and did a hack job with a libstrophe example to send me a private message from a git hook. The server with git on it doesn't have python 3 and all that stuff and I couldn't get rust to cross compile to 32bit so C was easiest.
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[17:35:29] <moparisthebest> it wasn't really my idea, perl sendmail is super ancient and didn't work with my server, I copied/hacked that python one from someone else to do PGP and such, then an openssl upgrade broke python and I hacked the rust one together :P
[17:35:37] <moparisthebest> *perl sendxmpp
[17:36:06] <jjrh> Well I got the idea from /your/ code. :)
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[17:36:34] <moparisthebest> still if you wrote a C sendxmpp you should put that code someplace public :)
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[17:37:01] <moparisthebest> wait, 32 bit server in 2018? interesting :)
[17:37:07] <Zash> I wonder if I still have my sendxmpp-curl somewhere
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[17:37:10] <jjrh> I don't want to talk about it haha
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[17:37:17] <jjrh> I was as surprised as you were
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[17:37:42] <Zash> moparisthebest: Hey, you leave my supercomputer alone!
[17:37:48] <Zash> It was cool in 2003
[17:38:15] <moparisthebest> Zash, you added xmpp to curl?
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[17:39:09] <Zash> moparisthebest: No, I wrote a plugin for Prosody that received stuff over HTTP and a curl wrapper compatible with sendxmpp
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[17:39:21] <Zash> https://modules.prosody.im/mod_post_msg.html 8 years ago!
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[17:39:45] <jjrh> But 'wrote' is a bit of a stretch, I found some example from a PR and glued it together. I'll throw it up somewhere. Right now it's just a make target for libstrophe since I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to correctly link it.
[17:39:47] <moparisthebest> ah ok, neat
[17:40:05] <moparisthebest> adding xmpp to curl would also be neat
[17:40:16] <moparisthebest> it does imap and smtp and such, why not xmpp
[17:40:25] <Zash> $ q ~/share/bin/sendxmpp-curl
https://q.zash.se/76c690bcad19.txt
[17:40:31] <Zash> moparisthebest: Do it!
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[17:40:45] <jjrh> but it works, I get a private message when someone pushes :)
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[17:44:17] <moparisthebest> I switched most of my cronjobs/alerts to sendxmpp over sendmail years ago, but it has the downside of some messages are obnoxiously big for xmpp
[17:44:37] <moparisthebest> I broke conversations once, now it has a character limit and messages get truncated
[17:44:53] <jjrh> I'd like to add a bit of stuff so it uses ~/.config/sendxmpp.toml and is just a C version of sendxmpp
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[17:45:54] <moparisthebest> jjrh, did you try https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc
[17:46:08] <moparisthebest> in theory it'd work for you but I never tried it (compiles rust to C)
[17:46:41] <moparisthebest> well cross compiling to 32 bit linux should work too...
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[17:48:03] <jjrh> Nah they only show x86-64 targets - I didn't actually get libstrophe to cross compile, I got the same issue as I did trying with rust some issue with SSL. The reason C worked well is because I could just compile it on the 32bit machine without installing anything new.
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[17:49:09] <moparisthebest> jjrh, 'rustup target list' shows both i686-unknown-linux-gnu and i686-unknown-linux-musl
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[17:50:47] <moparisthebest> should be 1 invocation of 'rustup target add i686-unknown-linux-gnu' and then 'cargo build --target i686-unknown-linux-gnu'
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[17:52:22] <jjrh> Yeah I did exactly that - I wanted a static binary so I needed uh musl? ,got some issue with SSL - probably something to do with my system. I didn't feel like investigating so I tried with libstrophe and got a similar issue and just gave up and compiled it on the 32 bit server - doing it with C was less painful since the machine had GCC. I didn't want to install all the rust stuff
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[17:52:37] <moparisthebest> yea makes sense
[17:53:13] <moparisthebest> I've only cross-compiled rust to 64-bit windows so far, it worked well though
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[17:56:05] <jjrh> Yeah I have done this before without issue but anything involving SSL tends to cause headaches
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[17:56:36] <jjrh> My C knowledge is basic at best though which doesn't help.
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[17:57:43] <moparisthebest> yea today I'll jump through a good number of hoops to write rust if it means avoiding C
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[17:58:20] <jjrh> I don't mind C really I just never end up in situations where I need it.
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[18:00:03] <jjrh> Last project I did in C was some embedded stuff on a TI arm M4F chip. Not a lot of work doing C these days really.
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[18:00:51] <moparisthebest> embedded rust seems to be going fairly well http://blog.japaric.io/ haven't gotten a chance to try it yet
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[18:02:59] <jjrh> The real issue is just about all the chip manufacturers support C and ASM and provide ALL their examples in that and all their build tools expect you're doing that so you have to jump through more hoops to use something else.
[18:03:11] <jjrh> But i'm glad people are working on it.
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[18:05:34] <jjrh> Doing stuff with this TI board - their environment which is a fork of eclipse - as frustrating and crappy it is does have some really really nice and helpful stuff built in.
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[22:33:51] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[22:45:06] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[23:21:02] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:21:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[23:27:33] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:29:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:30:22] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:31:18] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[23:51:24] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:51:39] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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