XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-03-10


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  273. Seve/SouL https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16540390
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  291. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: you are a bit late to the game 😉
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  297. Seve/SouL I was going to tell that I was reading it because you shared that link some days I ago and I haven't had the time to read it :)
  298. Seve/SouL So yeah, I'm late indeed.
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  300. jonasw > addressing with user-owned identifiers like phone numbers Don't take things like that too seriously. That's just the result of the reality distortion field that comes with sitting on top a huge database of phone numbers.
  301. jonasw lol
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  338. SaltyBones His observations are correct but the conclusion is wrong. You can have a coherent, changing federated system you just have to keep the number of implementations down.
  339. SaltyBones The problems with XMPP as IM are due to the massive amount of different use-cases of XMPP not the federation.
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  341. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, Email seems to work despite having wildly different implementations.
  342. SaltyBones And it has very much failed to change...
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  345. Dave Cridland Across its lifetime? Or just recently?
  346. Dave Cridland I mean, I can remember MIME taking over from UUENCODE, so maybe I have a different view, but it seems to have been fairly vibrant up until Google/Hotmail/Yahoo/Exchange basically took over the space and squeezed everyone else out.
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  348. SaltyBones hm...well...hard to say what would have been required
  349. SaltyBones but e-mail is very much not the primary means of communication anymore
  350. SaltyBones But yeah, in the corporate environment it evolved quite a bit. You can copy and paste tables into mails and attach skype meeting to them and whatnot....but then again that only really works between outlooks so the "fewer implementations" holds again.
  351. SaltyBones Dave Cridland, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, I don't get your comment about hotmail squeezing people out.
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  354. Dave Cridland Before Outlook was dominant, stuff like message receipts, attachments, etc all came about in a highly federated environment involving dozens of implementations.
  355. SaltyBones hm...guess there must have been a lot more manpower for e-mail back then...?
  356. Dave Cridland No, probably not. But *standards* flow faster when you have lots of implementations.
  357. Dave Cridland I suspect that Conversations, for example, actually slows things down by being so dominant on Android. There's less incentive to standardize.
  358. SaltyBones 🤔
  359. SaltyBones So....the standards flow faster because the devs are trying to figure out how to interop?
  360. Dave Cridland I suspect so.
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  363. SaltyBones Then it still requires the manpower to implement all those standards to work properly which must have been more than is available now.
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  365. SaltyBones But it doesn't really explain what happens in the case of more niche or controverse things. Why did we never get proper e-mail encryption?
  366. SaltyBones I mean, nowadays there is a fucked up incentive towards silos because users are somehow money so the problem must have gotten worse but I think it has always existed.
  367. Dave Cridland So we did get proper email encryption. S/MIME actually works, and amazingly works really well if it's a nice implementation. But most implementations suck, and nobody ever really figured out certificate lookup.
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  369. SaltyBones I think those are contradictory statements in this context.
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  371. SaltyBones Our point was that we want to have a well working federated ecosystem not a "works well if done right but most dont", that's was the problem!
  372. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: there was a really nice idea to put email certificates into DNS with DNSSEC.
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  374. Ge0rG And I think that conversations actually accelerates progress because Daniel is actively doing standardization work (albeit not for all the things I'd like to see standardized, mainly for UX), and because Conversations is creating incentives to server developers and operators.
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  672. edhelas what are the recommended and deprecated SASL mechanisms ?
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  691. Zash edhelas: the SCRAM family is mandatory to support per https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#security-mti-auth
  692. edhelas ok, I'm wondering if we can deprecate some mechanisms
  693. Zash Like what?
  694. edhelas PLAIN, CramMD5, DigestMD5
  695. Zash DIGEST-MD5 is already deprecated
  696. Zash And PLAIN is not going anywhere
  697. edhelas ok
  698. Zash -rfc 6331
  699. Bunneh Zash: Moving DIGEST-MD5 to Historic. A. Melnikov. July 2011. (Status: INFORMATIONAL) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6331
  700. Zash Deprecated since 2011
  701. Maranda I'd like to see PLAIN deprecation
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  703. Maranda And everyone failing to connect
  704. Maranda 🤣
  705. edhelas ok so I'll remove it from my list
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  707. Zash DIGEST-MD5 is disabled by default in Prosody since 0.10.0, and newer worked with hashed password storage.
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  709. Zash edhelas: You have CRAM-MD5 support?
  710. edhelas seems so
  711. edhelas I'm looking to remove it as well
  712. Zash SCRAM-SHA-256 (and -PLUS) would probably be something a modern SASL implementation should have
  713. edhelas normally the lib that I'm using is handling SCRAM-*
  714. edhelas don't know about the -PLUS
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