Sunday, March 11, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[11:20:24] <Ge0rG> https://pidgin.im/pipermail/announce/2018-March/000020.html
The libpurple changes have some RCE galore
> Properlly shell escape URI's when opening them.
[11:22:08] <Zash> https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/pidgin
[11:22:20] <Zash> Hot damn
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[11:26:22] <Zash> Only one CVE from 2017, is that good or bad?
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[11:43:06] <jonasw> good argument for Moved XEP: could easily become a requirement with the EU-GDPR
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[12:10:19] *Dave Cridland has broken everything today.
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[12:10:26] <Dave Cridland> -ping cridland.im
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[12:13:09] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: closed
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[12:13:37] <Dave Cridland> Bunneh, Thanks. Yes, I have broken *everything*.
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[12:15:52] <Zash> "closed" is the most informative error message
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[12:26:00] <Maranda> Maranda: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: connection refused 🤔
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[13:26:02] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: connection-timeout
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[13:48:21] <Dave Cridland> -ping cridland.im
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[13:50:25] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: dialback authentication failed
[13:50:39] <Zash> Dave Cridland: Having fun?
[13:51:06] <Dave Cridland> Zash, Well, maybe.
[13:51:32] <Dave Cridland> Zash, For various reasons, I replaced the autoconf build system of libunbound with cmake, and introduced some interesting errors.
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[13:52:50] <Dave Cridland> -ping cridland.im
[13:52:54] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: dialback authentication failed
[13:54:11] <Dave Cridland> I think this is actually working now - remaining errors are because I've not got TLS enabled.
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[13:55:45] <jonasw> lovely, replace all autotools with cmake <3
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[15:14:06] <Ge0rG> Zash [12:26]:
> Only one CVE from 2017, is that good or bad?
I think this is because libpurple lost popularity, not because it lost all its bugs.
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[15:19:09] <jonasw> hah
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[15:52:34] <Dave Cridland> -ping cridland.im
[15:52:45] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Pong from cridland.im in 10.289 seconds
[15:52:59] <Dave Cridland> Ah, sweet smell of success.
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[15:57:39] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Metre and all its dependencies build with cmake, now, except for OpenSSL because that has the most terrifying build system ever.
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[15:58:55] <jonasw> lovely
[15:59:23] <jonasw> are you handing that to upstream?
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[16:01:39] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, For libunbound? Doubtful, it's nothing like done yet. Just enough to build on Linux for now. I'm gradually working on Windows.
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[16:02:49] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, But git@github.com:dwd/unbound has it, anyway. "Patches welcome" - especially for the Windows support, actually.
[16:04:04] <jonasw> hm ok
[16:06:34] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Don't get me wrong - *eventually* I'd like to get it into upstream. But it's a long way to go yet - unbound's flexibility with autoconf is pretty high - although it does things like check for fork(), but fails dead at runtime if it doesn't have it.
[16:06:48] <jonasw> :/
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[16:07:35] <Neustradamus> Good news Dave Cridland
[16:09:40] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Oh, and that's not mentioning that unbound works with a wide variety of OpenSSL versions, *and* libsodium, *and* ...
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[16:13:06] <jonasw> Dave Cridland: sounds like a huge load of fun -- and good work
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[17:02:36] <Dave Cridland> -ping dave.cridland.net
[17:02:38] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Pong from dave.cridland.net in 1.559 seconds
[17:02:49] <Dave Cridland> -ping dave.cridland.net
[17:02:50] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Pong from dave.cridland.net in 0.073 seconds
[17:02:53] <Dave Cridland> Better.
[17:03:30] <jonasw> :)
[17:03:30] <jonasw> even more fun for doing that on a live service, right?
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[17:04:29] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Yeah. cridland.im is a domain I use for running arbitrary servers on for testing. But since the very basic tests worked on Metre, I deployed it on prod a little optimistically...
[17:04:46] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, I wasn't expecting unbound to completely fail. :-)
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[17:04:56] <jonasw> :D
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[17:05:19] <Dave Cridland> Weird, though, that so many of my contacts are still using a StartSSL certificate.
[17:05:35] <Dave Cridland> (Metre rejects all of them since the CRLDP is down now)
[17:05:48] <jonasw> crldp?
[17:06:31] <Neustradamus> Little question: A friend request me news about XEP Diff tool, any news about it?
[17:06:44] <jonasw> Neustradamus: no
[17:06:48] <Neustradamus> :/
[17:07:14] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Certificate Revocation List Distribution Point. And amazingly, some of StartSSL's still seem to be up.
[17:07:25] <jonasw> we either need an external service or a way to build the xeps incrementally
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[17:13:54] <Dave Cridland> Zash, Do you have a working TLS1.3 server around?
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[17:56:11] <Alex> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/09/slack_cuts_ties_to_irc_and_xmpp/
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[18:01:58] <moparisthebest> Gotta get that sweet sweet vendor lock-in
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[18:13:11] <Ge0rG> If only we had some alternative to offer.
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[18:14:29] <moparisthebest> Most accurate comment from there:
[18:14:35] <moparisthebest> Hey, Facebook Messenger also used XMPP once... But when users are the product, you don't want anyone to access "your" users without paying your toll.
[18:14:53] <moparisthebest> That's basically what it boils down to
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[18:15:21] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: on slack you actually pay for using it, and it's very expensive
[18:15:59] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: maybe the issue was that you could create remote backups easily by parking a client in there, to circumvent the free account limit
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[18:20:07] <waqas> Ge0rG: The "very expensive" part doesn't apply to actual companies. Slack is one of the cheaper services.
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[18:20:44] <Ge0rG> waqas: all the companies that I've seen using slack were on the free tier because it was too expensive
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[18:21:21] <Ge0rG> waqas: it's something like one third of an Office 365 subscription, and it only has chat
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[18:22:53] <waqas> Here's from my company's slack account's billing page that I pay for: "Your workspace is on the Standard plan, paying Monthly. Your plan will renew on April 9, 2018 for $174.20. $160 for 20 users $14.20 sales tax"
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[18:24:00] <waqas> And I think the average spend for a tech company is ~$10k/month/employee around these parts.
[18:24:59] <waqas> I simply can't see the slack bill as being expensive. See what I mean?
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[18:28:24] <waqas> We probably subscribe to 10-20 services in that category (slack, github, jira, etc), and all that combined comes out to probably >1% of total company spend.
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[18:35:29] <waqas> So I can absolutely understand that there are companies out there who'd consider Slack's expense burdensome, but most companies in the US tech sector probably would not.
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[18:41:12] <Alex> agree with waqas
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[18:42:53] <Dave Cridland> Same. There's ways to compete with Slack, but cost isn't it.
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[18:45:35] <Alex> Ge0rG: we have all the XEPs to compete. but we do not have any good modern client ;-)
[18:46:22] <Alex> Desktop clients I refer to
[18:46:29] <waqas> That's what it really boils down to. Almost nobody cares about the underlying protocol. People like slack because of the client.
[18:46:53] <waqas> And there's an opportunity there: the memory usage and sluggishness of their client is almost universally complained about
[18:47:18] <Dave Cridland> waqas, Right. And they moan about all sorts in the client, too - but the overall expeience is really positive.
[18:47:32] <waqas> Yep
[18:48:01] <waqas> Which is why despite being a Prosody author it's hard for me to push XMPP, as there's no client that can compete in Slack's niche
[18:48:36] <Dave Cridland> I think a tough problem we have to deal with is the integrations, though. The general "hook" concept for services heavily assumes a single service to hook into, not a federation.
[18:48:54] <Dave Cridland> -ping cridland.im
[18:48:55] <Alex> lets take a JS lib, electron and start one ;-)
[18:49:09] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: Pong from cridland.im in 14.527 seconds
[18:49:18] <Dave Cridland> Wow. Still works.
[18:49:29] <waqas> -ping cridland.im
[18:49:29] <Bunneh> waqas: Pong from cridland.im in 0.096 seconds
[18:49:40] <Dave Cridland> Also, https://github.com/surevine/web-chat
[18:49:56] <Dave Cridland> I mean, it's a start.
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[18:51:22] <Alex> Dave Cridland: is there a hosted version available somewhere? d you have some screenshots?
[18:51:36] <waqas> I was going to ask about screenshots too
[18:52:31] <waqas> Slack's integrations aren't that difficult. Writing a bridge that let's an XMPP server expose Slack's webhook/API system isn't that hard, followed by evangelism to popular integration authors for support for custom API end-points.
[18:52:35] <Dave Cridland> Jonny, who wrote it, said that "in the absence of budget available for this project to perform detailed user interviews, we elected to take design cues from a well-known IM service".
[18:52:48] <Dave Cridland> In other words, he copied Slack, mostly.
[18:52:53] <waqas> That's compelling :)
[18:53:10] <Alex> thats a great start dave ;-)
[18:53:18] <Dave Cridland> But it's React+Redux+stanza.io, so it's a good base whatever.
[18:53:51] <Dave Cridland> But it *only* does MUC, for now (well, and FDP and a weird snippets thing I really need to document).
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[19:09:44] <Alex> looks like a reference is missing:
./~/react-toastify/lib/ToastContainer.js
Module not found: Can't resolve 'glamor' in 'C:\Users\Alex\Downloads\web-chat-master\node_modules\react-toastify\lib'
[19:10:05] <Alex> after npm install glamor it starts up
[19:10:29] <Dave Cridland> Oh. That's odd. I'll see if I can get it running locally, but I believe it works.
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[19:11:03] <Alex> after installing this module it seems to work
[19:11:13] <Alex> have to figure out where to set the server
[19:11:23] <Dave Cridland> config.js
[19:11:51] <Alex> I assume this modile is missing in package.json
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[19:13:32] <waqas> Alex: Screenshots and review please, when you can ;)
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[19:27:07] <Alex> waqas:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgluxp1gy28iynv/acreen1.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/59yibqys5ax2hee/screen2.png?dl=0
[19:27:34] <Alex> does not display messages for some reason
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[19:29:48] <Alex> probably becuase no histor is there. But looks pretty good
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